Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[Heatnix.]

Less and less frames start doing that, it all started back with Nova, then Excal, now Saryn,and eventually no frames will be able to do it, it's the play style DE and most of us are sick off, the one trick ponies that nuke the map with little to no effort. They'll eventually tune out all the one trick ponies, removing power from the 1 trick skill and shifting it into the frame's other skills, which is a good thing.

 

Nova used to only be used to nuke the map, same for Excal and Saryn...well not anymore, Mag used to be used to pull loot, not anymore (she'll receive her changes soon-ish too), Trinity was used only to spam 4 and keep everyone invincible after corrupted mods were added, Frost was used only for his perma-invincible Snow Globe and so on...all of them changed, for the better once all the frames receive the same treatment.

 

There's a difference between reworking a frame to do something else that requires more effort than pressing a button and completely making your frame pointless in comparison and dependent on using all your skills to gain some sort of slow paying benefit. As it is, those you mentioned have skills that work on their own and are strong combined and can aid you in different situations. Saryn requires the use of 3 of her skills combined to get to kill stuff *slowly*, and these skills on their own are now pretty pointless. And let's not talk stats. Her HP and armor don't correspond to a frame that can't kill quickly and requires a lot of effort to set up to kill, which again, is also over time. Soooo...

 

I understand what they want to do, but wanting to do and having an objective doesn't mean they will nail it all the time. They failed on Saryn, and that's all right as long as they fix her -- but they won't, so there's that.

[vashyoung]

In her current form, she should have the lowest shields, medium to high health, and Armor on par with Valkyr.

agree, since DE turned her into something that requires to spam a lot and a melee range frame, she needs armor and a bit energy

[Dragonofdarkness13]

Okay~

 Now ... When I saw that Saryn was getting a rework I was Happy because of Excalibur, Frost, and Valkyr's were all great ... Mesa ... Well I preferred the radial gun kata stuff she had going before.

Now for Saryn ... Why was her health reduced? this I hope is a glitch and not intended because that's not what we were promised.

For her powers

Spores - They NEED to pop on target's death, they need to have a wider spread when you pop them

Molt - is it just me or is Regen.Molt not healing as much as it used to ? I sure hope that's another bug ... Also I think it should force aggro draw like Loki's decoy .. as often I cast molt and everyone walks pass it like it wasn't there. oh and miasma auto kills it.

Toxic Lash - Make this toggle

Miasma - Give it back it's corrosive damage, increase it's base range , increase it's damage back to what it was before... It shouldn't have been weakened for this 'synergy' stuff .. it should have just been if you had spores on enemies they take extra damage .. not NEEDING the spores to do the damage we were doing before ... OH and if you have a molt and cover it with spores and use miasma in range of it .. I think the molt should be exploded and basically cast a 2nd miasma at the same time .. There's your synergy.

As it stands now ... this is not synergy .. not with her own powers and not with other players. This re-work is just a huge Nerf to a Frame that didn't need a complete re-work JUST her 1 and 3 ...

BTW the Passive is crap ... I think it should be just having her like 50 or 75% resistant to toxic damage

[Doombrigade]

they wasn't test it at all, see their reaction in devstream?

Yeah I watched it. It was a poor demonstration to say the least but I figured I would test it myself before drawing any conclusions. 

[(XBOX)SixPathsOfHate]

Okay~

 Now ... When I saw that Saryn was getting a rework I was Happy because of Excalibur, Frost, and Valkyr's were all great ... Mesa ... Well I preferred the radial gun kata stuff she had going before.

Now for Saryn ... Why was her health reduced? this I hope is a glitch and not intended because that's not what we were promised.

For her powers

Spores - They NEED to pop on target's death, they need to have a wider spread when you pop them

Molt - is it just me or is Regen.Molt not healing as much as it used to ? I sure hope that's another bug ... Also I think it should force aggro draw like Loki's decoy .. as often I cast molt and everyone walks pass it like it wasn't there. oh and miasma auto kills it.

Toxic Lash - Make this toggle

Miasma - Give it back it's corrosive damage, increase it's base range , increase it's damage back to what it was before... It shouldn't have been weakened for this 'synergy' stuff .. it should have just been if you had spores on enemies they take extra damage .. not NEEDING the spores to do the damage we were doing before ... OH and if you have a molt and cover it with spores and use miasma in range of it .. I think the molt should be exploded and basically cast a 2nd miasma at the same time .. There's your synergy.

As it stands now ... this is not synergy .. not with her own powers and not with other players. This re-work is just a huge Nerf to a Frame that didn't need a complete re-work JUST her 1 and 3 ...

BTW the Passive is crap ... I think it should be just having her like 50 or 75% resistant to toxic damage

Since they removed negative duration from saryn's ability it now doesnt burst heal but heals over a longer period of time.

[RiouHotaru]

You fundamentally do not understand math.

Halving enemy hitpoints is identical to doubling damage.

If you do 10 damage and the enemy has 100 hitpoints, it will take you 10 attacks to kill them.

If you do 20 damage and the enemy has 100 hitpoints, it will take you 5 attacks to kill them.

If you do 10 damage and the enemy has 50 hitpoints, it will take you 5 attacks to kill them.

If a 100% increase in damage isn't good enough, then a 50% reduction in enemy hitpoints is exactly as not good enough. Because it's the exact. Same. Thing! Viral does not scale better than molecular prime, because both do exactly the same thing, except molecular prime also slows the enemy and is all around easier to apply to large groups of enemies at once.

 

Except that:

 

A) Molecular Prime is a 4-ability, and thus costs far more energy, whereas Spores is a 1-ability

B) Molecular Prime requires duration to maximize the range at which it effects enemies, Spore's range is effected by, well...Range.

C) Molecular Prime's animation has to actually reach enemies to effect them, whereas Spores just needs you to line up a target.

D) The cast animation on Molecular Prime is fairly lengthy compared to Spores.

 

I'll concede you've made your point in terms of math, but Molecular Prime isn't strictly superior just because it slows enemies.

[GhostLacuna]

Here's an easy Saryn build:

 

Aura: Rejuvenation

 

1) Vitality (Max Rank)

2) Rage (Max Rank

3) Primed Continuity (Rank 9)

4) Primed Flow (Rank 9)

5) Streamline (Max Rank)

6) Intensify (Max Rank)

7) Stretch (Max Rank)

8) Regenerative Molt (Max Rank)

 

Now, if I didn't have a 90% belief that Saryn Prime is after Trinity Prime I'd slap on another Forma to reduce Primed Continuity's cost down so I could use Rush in the Utility slot, and Stretch can be replaced with something like Armored Agility, Natural Talent, or Constitution.

 

Also, if you don't have Primed Continuity/Flow, the normal versions work just as well.  I think the main problem is that people are almost utterly dependent on corrupted mods to try and squeeze every last drop of oomph from their build, when honestly the base mods are just as potent.

 

If you don't have Regenerative molt, that frees up a slot as well to put in the aforementioned mods too.  Vigor would push your HP back over 1k I believe?

 

 

 

 

Nova is so squishy it hurts, and she has absolutely zero survivability options save her ult.  Which is really all she's good for.

 

Banshee's Resonance requires hitting very specific target-points, only spreads to other targets with an augment, and oh yeah, is also clan-tech.

 

Also, New Saryn does scale.  Viral scales right alongside the enemy.  Banshee is a damage multiplier but it's dependent on your DPS, as is Nova.  If your damage has fallen off significantly enough Banshee/Nova won't improve it significantly.  Viral just flat cuts enemy HP in half.

 

Your damage with only intensify is utter crap. that is 130% power strength while power strength 184% struggle to do meaningful damage unless you actually get a spore chain going. 

 

your costs of your abilities is at least 17.50 per spore cast and 35 a piece for molt and lash not to mention 70 for miasma. 

 

so your efficiency is low as well. 

 

Congratulation for doing a mediocre build  the rework forced you into a MAD situation where you have to maintain a plus to all your "stats" at the same time making you a all rounder that is mediocre at everything master of none. 

 

you have 155% duration, 130% efficiency, 145% range and 130% power strength with your build. 

 

Nothing here stands out. 

 

Your duration only positively affect 1, 2 and 3 4 is still better of with negative duration since the ticks does not in fact go of every second. 

 

Run some tests it ticks way more then 1 per second. 

 

its still faster to just melee enemies to death with that low damage on your skills.

 

As for nova you can snipe enemies with anti matter drop since you can curve it around corners while the only ability Saryn has that does not require line of sight is Miasma.

 

You can also move enemies with clever use of worm hole. The only CC Saryn has is the stagger from Miasma and that is around 3-5 seconds. 

 

Banshee also  have insane CC something Saryn lack. 

 

Viral since nerf only lower the enemies health by half for 8 second and does not scale therefor its faster and less risky to proc it using any status weapon then to rely on a single target skill like spore. 

 

Also venom gave you more spores per cast then spore does. Spore also does not spread if the target dies before you pop the spores. So if you happen to target a trash mod all you did was waste energy. 

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

For those of you moaning about the rework that makes her complex, new, and more engaging to play... You should really try the game out, it's cool if you play it. instead of standing there, tapping 4, doing less work than a freeze-dried potato. If you HONESTLY have trouble using her now, when she has had her armor, max energy, and abilities in general, buffed to all hell, then this might help you develop a degree of skill, force you out of your comfort zone, and give you the push you need to stop being a hallway hero and PLAY THE GAME. Just sitting there spamming your 4 while the rest of the squad is doing doing stuff was obnoxious at the least. I look forward to seeing how many truly skilled players are forced to discover their potential after this skill void is removed, and how many weak willed button pressing machines are forced out of my squads.

Or while you are doing all that, I can shot the group once and kill everything.

[SquidTheSid]

Yeah, tried her out for a bit and she's not in a very good place. Some thoughts to give her a good buff (preliminary ideas,  values can be tweaked as needed): 

 

1). Spore

 

- guaranteed explosion on enemy death.

- enemies affected by Spore will have a 20% movement/attack speed slow (not affected by power strength). 

- spread range increased to 20 meters.

 

2). Molt

 

- 4 seconds of invulnerability on cast, where damage taken is added to base health

 

3). Toxic Lash

 

- Make it a 20m aura. 

- Let it affect ranged weapon weapons, but with a 40% damage penalty. 

- Increases range of melee weapons by 50% 

- Augment is now part of base ability (only affects melee weapons)?

- Toxin damage is a separate instance of damage and does not combine with other elements. 

 

- New Augment: Grants 5% lifesteal on enemy kills (in aura).

 

4) Miasma

 

- Now changed to a toggle centered around Saryn (affected by duration)

 

- Energy cost changed to 50 + 10 energy per second 

 

- Removed a fixed amount of damage from enemies (15% of an enemy's maximum health value per second - caps out at 20%)

 

- Viral and Toxin procs decrease the delay between ticks by 30% (they stack multiplicatively, effectively halving the duration between ticks) 

 

- Molt will now stores a miniature Miasma. The clone will store 30% of the accumulated health removal percentage from Miasma (this value cannot exceed 50%). When the clone dies, it will spread the damage to enemies. 

 

Stat changes:

 

Health nerf reverted

 

Armor increased to 200

 

Energy increased to 175 at base

 

 

Essentially, Spore has been tweaked a bit to provide more consistent CC (and with Nova, you get massive slows on enemies), Molt now provides a very solid escape mechanism for Saryn (since it has a high threat level and scales with damage taken for its first four seconds, it can be reasonably tanky), Toxic lash now works as a team buff and affects all weapons now (albeit at a reduced rate to melee weapons). While Miasma no longer instantly kills enemies, it now becomes an infinitely scaling DoT, giving her an ability that can consistently kill enemies relatively quickly (especially using combo powers). 

[Ryouzanpaku]

And still slow as a woman with constipation.

 

I have 2 words for you: Arcane Hemlock

[RiouHotaru]

Your damage with only intensify is utter crap. that is 130% power strength while power strength 184% struggle to do meaningful damage unless you actually get a spore chain going. 

 

your costs of your abilities is at least 17.50 per spore cast and 35 a piece for molt and lash not to mention 70 for miasma. 

 

so your efficiency is low as well. 

 

Congratulation for doing a mediocre build  the rework forced you into a MAD situation where you have to maintain a plus to all your "stats" at the same time making you a all rounder that is mediocre at everything master of none. 

 

you have 155% duration, 130% efficiency, 145% range and 130% power strength with your build. 

 

Nothing here stands out. 

 

You're mistaking "not-abusing-corrupted-mods" as "mediocre" when honestly you don't need THAT much oomph to make Saryn good.  With this build, Toxic Lash lasts a good 40 seconds or so, more if I could squeeze in Constitution.  40 seconds is honestly a much longer time than folks realize.

 

130% efficiency seems awful, except that Saryn with Rank 9 Prime Flow has a whooping 600 energy, and I've got Rage and Regenerative Molt in the same build.  With 600 energy I don't really NEED a ton of efficiency, especially since DE capped how low ability costs can go.  Even with a normal Flow Saryn still have 450 energy, more than enough for combos.

 

The Stretch gives my Spore popping, Miasma, and Molt explosions greater range, so I can spread the DoTs and procs over a larger area.

 

Again, you're under the mistaken impression that a well-rounded build is a bad one.  It's not.

 

Also, you're assuming I'm comboing to abuse Miasma every chance I get.  When actually playing content I found most things died in short order from the Spore + Toxic Lash combos.  If, and only if something survived that, I might whip out Miasma just to make sure it died.

Edited November 5, 2015 by RiouHotaru

[VCaptiion]

For those of you moaning about the rework that makes her complex, new, and more engaging to play... You should really try the game out, it's cool if you play it. instead of standing there, tapping 4, doing less work than a freeze-dried potato. If you HONESTLY have trouble using her now, when she has had her armor, max energy, and abilities in general, buffed to all hell, then this might help you develop a degree of skill, force you out of your comfort zone, and give you the push you need to stop being a hallway hero and PLAY THE GAME. Just sitting there spamming your 4 while the rest of the squad is doing doing stuff was obnoxious at the least. I look forward to seeing how many truly skilled players are forced to discover their potential after this skill void is removed, and how many weak willed button pressing machines are forced out of my squads.

You know what? Fun only lasts for few weeks, what left mostly are boredom and annoyance.

Eventually people will use the most efficient & relaxing way to farm for specific rewards, fun is gonna be at 2nd place, this game is full of RNG and no one willing to spend 1 more second on their 200nd same runs.

It's the humanity, just like Draco, like survival camping, like those annoying field boss, like anything those glass-hearted nerf kids demanded.

Your stated "skill" isn't that important and most of the time it only fulfills your superiority to those newbies.

 

Maybe you think you won this time, but I can't wait to see YOU being kicked out 99% of public farming squads because you're only a non-cooperating stubborn trouble for them, better play solo or with your skillful friends so we won't see you :).

Edited November 5, 2015 by VCaptiion

[OneMember]

And now we are one less DPS frame... just genius.

[Inarticulate]

Run some tests it ticks way more then 1 per second.

It ticks once when Miasma is cast and once every second afterwards. If your Miasma has a duration of 3 seconds, you will see 4 ticks. If your Miasma has a duration of 6 seconds, you will see 7 ticks.

 

 

 

With 600 energy I don't really NEED a ton of efficiency, especially since DE capped how low ability costs can go.

Except that you are nowhere near the cap. "There's a hard cap on x stat, so I don't need to get all the way there" is not a valid argument when you are not even halfway there.

[RayPerth]

such a shame her 2 doesn't effect by range when premature explode(cast 2 twice), otherwise at least I can use the 2-1-2-4 combo without toxic status weapon to deal full damage, I don't know if this is bug or intend tho.

Edited November 5, 2015 by lazy529

[Judgebanks]

There are a multitude of frames that can do what Saryn can do, but to greater effect. Mediocre damage, mediocre cc, low utility.

 

More over it's a whole lot of effort, while fun, it yields very little in doing so. Saryn needs some sort of efficiency buff, much how atlas and Valkyr have. As you're expected to use 2-4 skills for the effect that other frames have in one skill. I haven't found a way to not play at max efficiency, without a pocket trinity.

[TheKurtiStryke]

agree,saryn now have a fun(and good) play-style

 

i went to relay,simulacrum, and i fought against some eximus lvl 75,press only 4,hadn't worked,then redo, tryed various combinations(like 2+1 then 2,,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1 and 4+3) all eximus were dead in less than 15 seconds,now it's not just a press 4 to win,and with the correct comnbo+primed mod the energyis no longer a problem

my saryn:

duration 158

strenght 130

efficiency 130

range 145

 

it works good

 

classic dumb players,still yelling and complain for the changes(cuz no more press 4 to win),make combos?nhaaa too hard we want the easy win(i saw people complain for the "hard" combo you have to do,for a bulletjump,then i suppose make  combos with saryn by pressing differents buttons It is out of their reach...."),whatever GJ De now saryn is fun and enjoyable

Edited November 5, 2015 by TheKurtiStryke

[ThePredicament]

For those of you moaning about the rework that makes her complex, new, and more engaging to play... You should really try the game out, it's cool if you play it. instead of standing there, tapping 4, doing less work than a freeze-dried potato. If you HONESTLY have trouble using her now, when she has had her armor, max energy, and abilities in general, buffed to all hell, then this might help you develop a degree of skill, force you out of your comfort zone, and give you the push you need to stop being a hallway hero and PLAY THE GAME. Just sitting there spamming your 4 while the rest of the squad is doing doing stuff was obnoxious at the least. I look forward to seeing how many truly skilled players are forced to discover their potential after this skill void is removed, and how many weak willed button pressing machines are forced out of my squads.

It's not about her nuke, it's about how the problems in her kit weren't addressed and stuff that didn't need any fixing, was nerfed.

 

All the synergy in the world could have been piled on top of the original Miasma and guess what? It would still be "complex, new, and more engaging to play".

[akira_him]

Yes.You may not like things at first,but you will adapt to it later on.

by adapt you mean being despaired and not using her anymore?

[Artekkor]

This is not right... I can't even understand how this is right.

So we just got Saryn rework which destroyed "press 4 to anihilate" meta and instead replaced it with some awesome ability synergising that requaires Saryn player to use all of his skills + melee to drown enemies in combination of viral and toxin procs.

Basically: Toxic lady just got more toxic than ever. And she actually puts effort and dedication into it!

And then, obviously, forums got drowned in topics like "Saryn is dead", "RIP Saryn", "What a nerf" etc.

Alright, this is fine. This always happens. This is something that Warframe community got used to by now.

But then i saw someone mentioning "Bladestorm nerf mentioned on a devstream".

My first thought was "what is he talking about? They were talking about rework. I don't remember word "nerf" said even once..."

And then i was like "OH MY GOODNES. He calls rework a nerf even though he has no idea how it will look like!"

This is a concept that i can't understand.

"Press one button to win" doesn't sound like a good nor healthy meta for a coop-based game. I understand that this is very efficient and saves time, but is it fun? Unless it kills only 1 enemy per press in a brutal way (Hey Atlas!) i can't see how this is fun.

Not for the user himself but for his team that just stands there and do nothing because they simply can't. Makes them wonder why are they even there.

This is not right... This is not right!

*Screams internally in horror*

Human nature scares me...

And humans in general (Q _ Q)

EDIT: as you can see below - topic pretty much derailed from it's original purpose that i had in mind. Not even close.

So i'll just repeat my thought in short: people are starting to declare reworks to be nerfs by default, simply because it breaks their current "press X to win" meta.

Not a good thing, kids. Stahp it.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Artek94

[MadSummoner2]

(sorry for bad English)

It's too bad that I can not buy a dual zoren skin in another place. I did not notice the deluxe skin collextion, bought the first.

I very much want to Toxic Lash worked on ranged weapons. But this is my opinion.

Edited November 5, 2015 by MadSummoner2

[Dreadwire]

Well im glad I didn't main her.

I didn't even potatoes mine

[Vilemyre]

Didn't you know? Excalibur got nerfed.. and frost...

 

Seriously DE why did you ruin my favorite frames by giving one a badass sword skill and the other the ability to blow up globes? And now you ruin saryn by making her needing more effort to be useful instead of pressing one button? Q_Q

 

/sarcasm

 

Press one button to win is bad for any frame as it makes them lackluster and only useful at one thing. Frost was like that one time where he was merely only useful with snow globe. 

[akira_him]

from what I have observed
rework means buff(exca, frost)
rebalance means nerf (survival, mesa)

QoL changes could be buff (Oberon, Valkyr, Nyx)
change could also mean nerf (hydroid)
revisit means we don't know what we are doing (saryn)

Edited November 5, 2015 by akira_him

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

You know what? Even it's fun at first few week, people would eventually use the most efficient and most relaxing way to play/farm in the long run. What all they want are rewards, fun is at 2nd place, this game is full of RNG and no one willing to spend 1 more second on their 200nd same runs.

It's the humanity, just like Draco, just like survival camping, just like those annoying field boss, just like anything those glass-hearted nerf kids demanded. Skill isn't that important and most of the time it only fulfills your superiority to those newbies.

This. I would be more willing to use what was "fun" over what was efficient if it did not take 200 or more runs of the most boring mission type in the game just to get 1 Ash Prime helmet.