Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[BlackCoMerc]

Roll back the rework.

 

Seriously, just start over. It is, I think, the only correct approach to the situation. 

 

You built a frame dependent on casting her every ability any time she wants to kill anything. Yet she cannot hold onto enough energy to do so, or deal damage fast enough to make using any ability worthwhile.

 

This entire rework was based on two powerful - and false - assumptions:

 

-That a Nuke frame is inherently bad

 

-That damage over time is viable in Warframe

 

Neither of these is true. If the first were true Equinox would not exist. You made Equinox a nuke, too, and for potentially massive damage, albeit with a charge mechanic that is both unique and useful.

 

Moreover, Warframe is a fast paced game. I can kill enemies faster with a Syndicate weapon and proc, than with Saryn - a dedicated damage frame. Quicker, and more reliably. 

 

This speed of dispatch is essential when handling groups in Warframe. Which is Saryn's intended role. Enemies come fast in Warframe and in large groups. Its a horde mode game. Like it or not - own it or not - that is what you have created. And Damage of Time is a dysfunctional and wasted mechanic in this game. We neither have the time nor the desire to wait on enemies to die later. Time is a luxury you do not have when surrounded by level 30 - 40 enemies, or higher, all of them blasting away at you. 

 

Because Saryn relies on complicated, high energy, damage over time solutions to possibly kill some enemies, she is strictly worse than Loki, Nyx, Nova, Ember, Excalibur, Valkyr, Rhino or any crowd control frame. Not all of those frames will kill quickly, but all of them WILL buy you time and space very quickly, and Saryn cannot even do THAT reliably. 

 

This rework needs to be rolled back, and another one planned - carefully. Here is a hint:

 

-Leave Molt and Miasma as they used to be, and build on that foundation. 

[Misgenesis]

Honestly, this rework is mostly amazing but there is barely any build diversity.

 

Spore does most of the work. Molt synergy with Spore is great. Toxic Lash...well it could apply to weapons too if its going to be kept.

Once you have a butt ton of Spore and toxin chained you use Miasma to top it off.

 

Now personally i wouldnt complain about the energy efficiency as youre not gonna need Miasma as long as Spore does its work. Somewhere around 40 (grineer) Spore was still annihilating grunts.

 

I think the health decrease was unneeded and energy increase fantastic.

 

Build used.

[DALOS]

Right. Saryn sux, you gave the rest of her abilities a purpose, but they ended up sharing the same one. It's just press 4 with extra steps.

[AutumnBramble]

Roll back the rework.

 

Seriously, just start over. It is, I think, the only correct approach to the situation. 

 

You built a frame dependent on casting her every ability any time she wants to kill anything. Yet she cannot hold onto enough energy to do so, or deal damage fast enough to make using any ability worthwhile.

 

This entire rework was based on two powerful - and false - assumptions:

 

-That a Nuke frame is inherently bad

 

-That damage over time is viable in Warframe

 

Neither of these is true. If the first were true Equinox would not exist. You made Equinox a nuke, too, and for potentially massive damage, albeit with a charge mechanic that is both unique and useful.

 

Moreover, Warframe is a fast paced game. I can kill enemies faster with a Syndicate weapon and proc, than with Saryn - a dedicated damage frame. Quicker, and more reliably. 

 

This speed of dispatch is essential when handling groups in Warframe. Which is Saryn's intended role. Enemies come fast in Warframe and in large groups. Its a horde mode game. Like it or not - own it or not - that is what you have created. And Damage of Time is a dysfunctional and wasted mechanic in this game. We neither have the time nor the desire to wait on enemies to die later. Time is a luxury you do not have when surrounded by level 30 - 40 enemies, or higher, all of them blasting away at you. 

 

Because Saryn relies on complicated, high energy, damage over time solutions to possibly kill some enemies, she is strictly worse than Loki, Nyx, Nova, Ember, Excalibur, Valkyr, Rhino or any crowd control frame. Not all of those frames will kill quickly, but all of them WILL buy you time and space very quickly, and Saryn cannot even do THAT reliably. 

 

This rework needs to be rolled back, and another one planned - carefully. Here is a hint:

 

-Leave Molt and Miasma as they used to be, and build on that foundation. 

 

This is a really good and correct post.

[OverlordMcGeek]

So is there a continuous CC for her 4th now? Or is it still a slight half second shock to enemies?

[Circle_of_Psi]

Just posting this here for people to watch, don't get me wrong I LOVE this Buff, huge BUFF, for her, new skin and everything, gives me a reason to play and keep her this time!. However this video about the other factions expect Infested worry's me.

 

 

 

[ThePredicament]

Perfect Solution: Just roll back Miasma, add duration based CC for Miasma with a upper and lower limit, make Molt aug built in and change mod to strip armor, add the cool new mechanics on the rest of her kit, make spores spread through death or pops, make spore pops explode at a larger range so there's some sort of incentive, make 3 affect ALL weapons for popping, make 3 toggle, make 3 have an aura for the rest of the team. Overall, make a reason to actually USE the other skills since that was one of the two main reasons why people built for a nuke.

Edited November 5, 2015 by TheLocalHentai

[VoidNomade]

 

 

As opposed to waiting an hour for level 100s to show up and then failing the mission because you were trying to take screenshots in an uncontrolled environment where you can't accurately observe anything?  

 

Saryn has no innate armor-stripping options.  Miasma still does not proc, ever.  Viral procs also don't affect armor.

 

Modding your weapon for Viral is pointless since you can trivially spread Viral on everything in the tile.  What you want is an Ignis modded for 100% Gas proc.  That will spread Gas procs across a whole legion of enemies in a flash, as well as spreading Spores (and thus Viral proc) to the whole group as well.  Then your Miasma will deal 3x damage to the whole group, on top of other benefits like overlapping Toxin procs (from the Gas procs) spreading via Spore.

 

Spore is better than Venom at spreading Viral; add a range mod and the whole map will be afflicted in no time.  

 

CC has not decreased.  Miasma confers the same stagger it always has, and Molt's aggro draw and durability are the same.

 

Best of all is that she can take advantage of Spore and Venom alongside Miasma instead of having to choose between Miasma and poor Miasma.  

 

Miasma shares Accelerant's stagger effect, which lasts 4-5 seconds on humanoids, 3-4 on MOAs and most Infested, and 2-3 on Chargers.  

 

 

Spores spread gas? o.o

[Meneliki]

Not sure If im just missing something. 

 

But the description says that if the target is Poisoned, Miasma does an extra 100% damage. (thats double damage for the number crunchers out there)

It also says if they're viralled, there's another 100% damage added (we're upto TRIPLE damage now)

 

So if Ive got toxic lash going, I spore someone.. then run in and hit them in melee... the toxic lash hits em with poison, bursts the spores, now everyone around is poisoned, AND viralled (which cuts HP in half, of course) and now susceptible to TRIPLE damage miasma, of which the base damage was supposed to have been buffed.

 

If that's the case, Saryn should be wrecking faces. From the testing I've done, that doesn't seem to be working out. Am I doing it wrong? I'm seeing a lot of negative feedback on this forum. 

 

Should be interesting for PrimeTime tonight - Reb/Meg will in all likelyhood be messing around with the Saryn rework. That's gonna be akward if they're running around NOT killing things. Unless they're playing on low level worlds.

 

I'll continue to test in the Simulacrum and try to figure this out.

[JamXmed]

Just posting this here for people to watch, don't get me wrong I LOVE this Buff, huge BUFF, for her, new skin and everything, gives me a reason to play and keep her this time!. However this video about the other factions expect Infested worry's me.

 

 

 

just a question, when has it ever been healthy for a warframe to be uniquely good at killing a specific faction and nothing else? seriously, people always complained about Ember and Mag as being only Infested and Corpus killers respectfully. A game where you can't play your favourite character on your favourite level is not good for the game and needs to be adjusted accordingly.

 

Before you say it, this is more me complaining about the video rather than what you said because you seem to be a little concerned about this same issue.

[DelialFallen]

On Spores:

 

The Initial spread is lower than Venom's was (3 compared to 6), but they seem to spread much easier than Venom ever did (in my own testing).  So, the change is a positive in my book.  Still, it's not extremely useful at low levels.  Being that it's Saryn's first ability, it's a bit problematic when you first level her up.  I'm not sure having them pop automatically on enemy death (as others suggested) to be a good thing, as it would make the Spores spread much too easily and allow for a bit too vast a damage boost to Miasma.  Given how often it needs to be cast to make full use of Saryn's 'synergy', there does seem to be a need to minimize wasted casts though.

 

I can't think of a good solution.

 

On Molt:

 

No real change here in how I use it and what it does.  It would likely be much more useful if it had much more health, that way it might be worth Spore-ing.  As it is, it just dies too quickly to be effective outside of mid-game.  Giving it a 4 seconds invulnerability, as has been suggested, would go a long way into making it viable for all content.

 

On Toxic Lash:

 

It's a nifty trick.  Mostly pointless, but nifty.  It's much more efficient to just use something else to spread toxin.  It can be fun in certain solo situations (those in which Saryn can melee without being decimated).  Some have suggested it should be a toggle.  I do not believe it needs to be, even when soloing and going full melee.  In that instance, it works well as is.

 

On Miasma:

 

It scales now, so that's good.  Spread Spores and Toxin procs around and then explode everything.  I'm not against this change, but I understand the frustration.  It's not really as useful in low end content as it once was.  It still is, but you can't realistically spread Spores and Toxin in a group setting.  So, I suppose, it's the opposite of Atlas' Landslide in that respect.  I think it's fine as is personally.

 

On Saryn's stats:

 

I really believe she needs to have her old health pool back, and an increased sprint speed.  It would do much to complement the melee side of the rework and might actually make it somewhat factually useful.

 

Overall, it's a positive rework but does require players who played Saryn consistently to significantly change their approach and playstyle.

[Petersheikah]

Instead of buffing three skills and nerfing the fourth one, I think they should have redone her skillset froom the start. Toxic Lash is still useless, and she basically changed from "spam 4" to "spam 2 & 1, then 4". Still spamming, same effect, but takes a more time to kill and spends more energy.

Let's face it, half of her skills are made just to set up Miasma. This much sinergy makes her dependant to Trinity for costant energy and makes builds less personal. There's just one way to build her right now, and it's investing into Miasma. You can't choose between utility, CC or damage like you do with Volt or Ash.

Sorry DE, but I don't like it. It wasn't good before, but now it's even worse.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Petersheikah

[Misgenesis]

 

 

Overall, it's a positive rework but does require players who played Saryn consistently to significantly change their approach and playstyle.

Exactly.

[ShinSuriel]

Hello everyone, first time posting on forums.

 

So, these are some of my findings:

 

With:

150 Power Strength (Transient Fortitude, not maxed)

145 Power Range (Stretch)

80 Power Duration (Primed Continuity - Fleeting Expertise, Rank 3)

170 Pwer Efficiency (Fleeting, rank 3 + Streamline)

 

Trying to use all 4 abilities was too problematic, because of the high energy consumption, however staying alive in a Survival depends on having Molt up as much as possible and blocking with Toxic Lash's damage reduction. That's why while using a Mire and the Blight syndicate mod I was merely able to decrease the rate at which my energy dropped.

 

Now, the Molt ability DOES have a "detonate" button. Recasting it will detonate the previous one, along with any Spores attached to it. That's why I found that setting up a Molt, Sporing it, then setting up a new Spore (rinse and repeat until you get everyone covered in goo) was the way to go ("healing" from Regenerative Molt did help).

 

Once enough enemies are covered in constant Viral and Toxin Proc, I cast Miasma once and start shooting stuff with the Rakta Ballistica, because I don't want to lose that awesome 25 Energy and Viral proc on... like 50 m or so (don't know the actual range, but it's much greater than Miasma).

 

That has been my best strategy so far, Molt + Spore then Molt again to detonate and re-Spore and re-detonate, while constantly healing (if I don't get 1/2 shot) and maybe Rage can "solve" the energy issues.

 

I'd use a more Toxic Lash build, with positive Duration and Molt, less Power strength, just for the extended Viral proc and added survival in melee... but I'd have to stay in melee.

 

Will test more .o.

[JamXmed]

Not sure If im just missing something. 

 

But the description says that if the target is Poisoned, Miasma does an extra 100% damage. (thats double damage for the number crunchers out there)

It also says if they're viralled, there's another 100% damage added (we're upto TRIPLE damage now)

 

So if Ive got toxic lash going, I spore someone.. then run in and hit them in melee... the toxic lash hits em with poison, bursts the spores, now everyone around is poisoned, AND viralled (which cuts HP in half, of course) and now susceptible to TRIPLE damage miasma, of which the base damage was supposed to have been buffed.

 

If that's the case, Saryn should be wrecking faces. From the testing I've done, that doesn't seem to be working out. Am I doing it wrong? I'm seeing a lot of negative feedback on this forum. 

 

Should be interesting for PrimeTime tonight - Reb/Meg will in all likelyhood be messing around with the Saryn rework. That's gonna be akward if they're running around NOT killing things. Unless they're playing on low level worlds.

 

I'll continue to test in the Simulacrum and try to figure this out.

I've done the numbers. With the triple damage, Miasma can Out damage the Old Miasma by around 46 points of damage... assuming you're building to utilize Miasma for both versions of Saryn, You'll be using nearly 3 times as much energy, at best, with the new Saryn. Timing taking about 0.5 seconds to deal all the damage on old Saryn while dealing all the damage in around 10 Seconds (Realistically) with the new Saryn (by that I mean in a non set up situation like a mission instead of the Simulator place, you'll take longer to set up the combo as the halls are smaller on average maps and there are more corners so your best bet to proc everything is Spore > Sobek Gas Build > Miasma and hope you proc'd everyone cause you're still using 3 times more energy and waiting anywhere between 3 - 7 seconds for all the ticks to finish)

[Domaik]

Ok I'll post again after many hours of testing many and countless builds...I have been able to consistely see several problems no matter the build or type of enemy.

 

Non-stat wise: animations get stuck sometimes and she keeps repeating the same movement.

 

Stat wise

 

Saryn is an energy eater now.

 

Saryn does not do well with enemies over lvl 50.

 

----She can't take damage from them without heavy losses (regenerative molt can only regenerate so much but if you are geting 2-shot'ed there's nothing to do.

----- She doesn't deal any sort of good damage to enemies past 60. And yes I have a corrosive projection slotted in for void testing.

 

Saryn combos are too risky and long to perfrom for the poor outcome you get out of them. You end up dying when you run in middle of the enemies preparing your molt to do some decent damage. You have no stun other than miasma but you can't afford to spam miasma anymore. you need molt to heal and to empower miasma but you need to cast your number 1 on it before you die or the molt dies which usually happens faster.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Domaik

[Synitare]

Here's my feedback:

There is a difference between synergy and dependence. This rework puts all of Saryns skills squarely in the latter category. The idea behind synergy is to make things compliment one another while still being viable on their own. This is very much not the case with Saryns abilities.

Saryn is very difficult to build now. You've removed the ability to specialize her, as she now requires all 4 stats to be in the positive in order to be effective. There is still only one playstyle available; her entire kit now hinges on a single combo that's incredibly unrewarding for the amount of effort and energy required.

Survivability is really poor. The nerf to her EHP was completely unnecessary, and now she's severely punished for being in melee range, which is required by her new ability set. She essentially requires Regenerative Molt, Vitality and Steel Fiber to survive now, which limits her available builds even further.  

Energy efficiency is really bad. She basically requires a base of 225 energy to output less damage than what almost any other frame can do with just one or two skills and half the energy. She can't make effective use of Fleeting Expertise due to how harshly she's punished for reduced duration, making her energy efficiency even worse. Embers Accelerant + Fireball does more damage for 75 energy than Saryns entire combo. Accelerant also scales with power strength, increases her cast speed and stuns enemies. It is exactly what a synergy skill should be.

The change to how Miasma interacts with with duration feels like we're being punished for wanting to have the fast pace that Warframe has come to be known for. Now if I want to deal damage I have to wait 3 or more seconds. The longer I wait, the more damage I will deal. While this is fine on paper, in practice it just feels very unrewarding. This is especially true when you begin comparing the new Saryn to other frames. Most of them are just capable of much more in terms of both damage and utility, and they all require much less effort, complexity and energy.

Ability issues and suggestions:

Spore: Lackluster damage on its own, doesn't scale well. Gets wasted when an enemy dies without the spores being popped.
Suggestions: Increase the number of spores back to 6, or make them scale with Power Strength. Add a small area of effect or make it a cone for the initial cast, and make spores detonate when the target dies.

Molt: Useless in late-game due to low health and poor scaling. Regenerative Molt augment is essentially required.
Suggestions: Give it a similar invulnerability window as Snow Globe, though perhaps not as long. 2-3 seconds with a reduced amount of additional health based on damage taken. We still want it to die and explode, but also want it to remain around long enough to cast spore and actually take focus away from Saryn. Regenerative Molt should be native to the skill and the augment mod should be changed to something else.

Toxic Lash: Nothing really wrong with the skill itself, but melee in late game is risky and unrewarding. Augment mod is not useful.
Suggestions: Increase base blocking damage reduction, remove damage reduction cap.

Miasma: Utter garbage now. Not worth using without the proc combos, and even with them the damage is really poor for the amount of work and total energy required. Damage scaling is laughable. It does not synergize with the other skills, it absolutely requires them. Patch notes also lied and claimed to have increased base damage, while actually reducing it. Dealing damage at static intervals is slow, clunky, boring and unrewarding. Base range is not nearly large enough for the middling damage it deals.
Suggestions: Actually increase the base damage substantially. Allow the damage multipliers from toxin and viral procs to scale with power strength. Give it a status chance per tick. Increase base range to at least 20m. Reduce base cost to 25. OR increase the base damage back to 375 and revert the duration change.

Alternatively: make Miasma a timed aura (like Elemental Ward) that deals a reasonable amount of constant damage over time, then add interactions with Spore and Toxic Lash. Something like each time you inflict a status proc or detonate a spore, Miasma deals a burst of damage in a small area around the target. This would add true synergy rather than dependence, it would alleviate some of her energy issues and would promote the melee style that seems to be her vision. You could cast Spore on a target, then wade into battle with your melee weapon enhanced with Toxic Lash and go to town. Press 4 to win would be gone, the fast pace would be restored and you would promote a much more interactive playstyle without making it feel punishing.

Finally and most importantly, she's currently simply not fun to play. Since all of her abilities are dependent on one another, she requires an absurd amount of work just to be mediocre. I understand the intent behind the changes and they work well on paper. In practice it's just too much effort for too little reward.

Her new skin is gorgeous though. Well done there.

[RealPandemonium]

Venom spread viral across the whole map faster because it spread more.

 

And you're right that you can't choose between miasma and poor miasma.  you can only choose poor miasma.  Old Miasma was better than current miasma even if you weren't tanking duration.

 

The ONLY thing that improved was the ability to cast spore on molt.  That's it.  That is literally the only relevant improvement in the nerf, as toxic lash is still a waste of energy and a cast animation.  Better to just use a kohm/ignis/pyrana/atomos/whatever.

I was applying Viral proc to all of Draco, from end to end, with a single cast.  It blew my mind how effective that is with some power range.  

 

Comboed Miasma deals almost 3x of old Miasma's intended damage per tick. New Miasma also gets an extra tick for free on activation (add one tick to whatever the UI displays.)  I'm currently using a max range build whose total synergized Miasma damage is 5460 at 125% power strength.  That's about 20% less  than the old negative duration Miasma's 6840 at 152% power strength, but I also get a highly effective Spore and the option for a 19 second Molt instead of 2 seconds, to say nothing of actually being able to use Toxic Lash in a meaningful capacity.

 

Fully multiplied Miasma base damage is currently 4 * 350 * 3 = 4200 damage.  Lowering duration lowers total damage by reducing # of ticks (partial ticks are still counted, btw.)  Old negative duration Miasma base damage was 4500, or 10% more.  Increasing duration lowered total damage.

 

While old Miasma dealt the damage faster (not really relevant since Miasma's stagger neutralizes enemies for a few seconds anyway) and allowed for more build diversity (fewer mods needed to become OP,) new Miasma allows you to use all abilities effectively with the same build, including Saryn's 3 which was practically unusable with an old Miasma build.  New Miasma also costs marginally more energy to set up (cast Spore) when using a specialized weapon (mostly Ignis, but there may be some other synergy that I've overlooked) loadout, and significantly more (have to cast Spore AND Molt instead of just Spore) without it.  You could use your Toxic Lash melee to force a Toxin proc to spread via Spore; that would be a more cost-effective option for melee instead of using Molt to spread Toxin.  The best part is that because Spore is usable with the new Miasma, all enemies effectively take double damage, so the new Miasma can be considered 86% more powerful (8400 vs 4500) than old negative duration Miasma.  

 

Toxic Lash offers a sizable damage and blocking increase.  If you don't want to melee then it's not helpful to you and nothing has changed on #3.

Edited November 5, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[Petersheikah]

He said everything that needed to be said.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Petersheikah

[CY13ERPUNK]

not hating the rework but she does still need a few tweaks

 

miasma should have a guaranteed proc, like the rest of her abilities, makes no sense that frost gets guaranteed armor reduction but saryn doing  corrosive dmg doesnt =/

 

and contagion, er [cough] i mean 'SPORES' =/, should burst/spread on enemy death

[Merdu]

To me its was a clear nerf and a lazy one at that, They could have done so much to reinvent Saryn, but no juts kill the 4^th skill and some how that will make the useless a-3 skills good. Add to that the problem of having a short range DoT frame in a game where stuff die so fast. I really don't think they tested her in a real play environment. Still hoping we will have her reversed back to her old form while they rethink stuff again, but probably looking dead useless but pretty now frame.

 

For those that thinks its a buff and actually play Saryn. Kindly share your build and play style, because I don’t seen any way to make her even half usefully now so maybe I'm missing something.

(No useless YouTube video please, they show nothing, list your build and describe your play style)

[Inarticulate]

New Miasma also gets an extra tick for free on activation (add one tick to whatever the UI displays.)

Miasma always had this extra tick. This extra tick was actually the cause of the inverse duration scaling on old Miasma.

[MaverickZero]

I think this deserves everyone's attention:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/556904-saryn-rework-suggested-tweaks-and-touchups-wall-of-text/

 

This covers 50 pages of this megathread.

[Scarlet-Blood]

I like this chance.
But i would like to see more range on miasma and spores spread radius, so that i can think about remove 'overextended'.
Because of the "must combo" i need the range to hit all my targets. 
Because of this i find the damage to low for the energy i'm useing. ( wel no s..t with = 40% power )
All in all i find the chance cool especially nurfing 4 kill all build, but find the new saryn laking in power in comparison onder warframe.
 

i know this is not the place to pont this out but please buff atlus a little or late game play.

[Xentia-Damascus]

I'll be copying and pasting this everywhere for the next few days.

 

-snip

The biggest problem with that video is it's just as biased as those people saying Sayrn is terrible because she can't spam 4 to win. It focuses far too heavily on people being salty about Miasma, and it doesn't reflect on Sayrn's current state and how she scales. I respect Quiette's opinions most of the time, but I do think she isn't really looking at Sayrn's current state and how they still failed to address how useless Sayrn is outside mid-tier.