Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[hukurokuju5]

I thought rework means re-KIT ......

 

the numbers were moved around, saryn has to combo now to do the same thing, or less..

 

Her skills essentially do the exact same thing, combo time frame and QOL aside, as what she used to.

[shirokoi]

Lvl60 grineer is serious business now? Level 60 is pretty low..... you are getting to the point where you might consider headshoting with a 5 forma weapon instead of foot shotting everything.

 

Banshee and nova do her job much better. She is like oberron, not bad if loki or nyx existed.

 

Lv 60 Grineer at 40% power strength? Yeah, I think Saryn's holding up pretty well. 

[Oriviagene]

If ya don't like it don't use it,why bother posting about it on forum?

[DSMatticus]

First, nerfing Saryn's health was stupid. Unnerf it, then buff it. Saryn does not have the range to use her powers without being the center of the enemy's attention, and the only reason that worked out before was because 1) she had one of the largest health pools in the game, 2) once she was in range she was going to open with miasma, which killed/staggered all the enemies attacking her, and 3) she had the mod space to run rage+regen molt and heal up for the next fight. Now her health pool is smaller, miasma is her 2nd or 3rd ability (if she casts it at all), and because she needs to mod for everything it's much harder to fit rage and regen molt on. If this is the new Saryn, she needs to be one of the most - if not the single most -  durable frames in the game.

 

Second, as I said new Saryn needs to mod for every. Single. Thing. She needs strength, because at her core she is still built around miasma synergy, and miasma is damage. She needs range, because her range is abysmal. She needs duration, because now that also affects her damage output. She needs efficiency, because she is supposed to cast every single one of her powers all the time. Something has to give. This is ridiculous.

 

Third, viral procs are not the end-all be-all of damage multipliers. A viral proc is effectively 2x damage. So is Nova's Molecular prime, except it comes with an attached debuff and takes exactly zero work to spread and lasts longer. Banshee's sonar is 5x damage, and it requires exactly zero work to spread and it lasts longer. Rhino's roar is easily 1.9x damage, and all it requires is that teammates be within 25m of eachother, and also it lasts longer. Once the Rhino rework hits, I bet he'll even be able to recast it, too (at least he better be, or else that would be dumb) - completely removing its only real downside.

 

Fourth, melee is still trash and toxic lash is not good. Better blocking will not make it better, at all. Give it up and replace this ability with something that gives her real, genuine versatility.

 

Fifth, miasma bombing is now trash. It's a subpar way to contribute to mid-level content and an absolutely abysmal way to contribute to high-level content. The nerf was needed, but the DPS is so low now I can do better with a half dozen other frames.

 

Summary:

Old Saryn was a one trick pony whose one trick was situationally very good: press 4, win up to about 30 waves/minutes/whatever. People sometimes took her to high level things to spread viral procs, but I can only assume this is because they had never actually considered the implications of the math and how there are several frames who do that better while having better kits all around (because they have CC or genuinely scaling nukes, like antimatter drop). It wasn't fun to play, but it sped up the grind so people did it. She definitely needed a rework.

 

New Saryn is a one trick pony whose one trick (viral procs, damage multiplication) is abysmal. Other frames get better versions of her trick on top of some of the best CC in the game. She does not stand out. Yes, yes, you can make her work out to 40 minutes or even 40+. Who cares? I made old Saryn work out that far, using miasma as a stagger and then just murdering things with my guns. Guns OP. She's still not the best choice for it - or even a particularly good choice.

 

If Saryn's big thing is going to be damage multiplication a la viral procs, she needs to be able to spread viral procs as quickly as Rhino, Banshee, and Nova do their things, because those abilities are her competition. And then she needs CC buffs across the board, because those other frames have great CC. And then she needs to be tanky as hell, because her range is terrible.

 

This is "back to the drawing board" territories of bad. There isn't a single number that doesn't need tweaked, spores needs a substantial mechanics buff (not a numbers buff, just the mechanism by which it procs and spreads needs overhauled until it's spewing viral everywhere crazy fast), and toxic lash needs completely replaced. And then we can just kind of accept that molt is always going to die immediately and miasma isn't really meant to be good because it's a radial nuke and radial nukes are boring.

Edited November 6, 2015 by DSMatticus

[Windy_Wind]

The problem I have now is molt gets destroyed too quickly at around 30 mins minutes giving you no time to do anything with it. It should receive snow globe mechanic to be more useful on higher level. 

 

Also this 

 

Miasa needed a guaranteed Corrosive proc

 

Miasma is terrible beyond 40 mins survival and players would almost don't cast it anymore because there is no reason to waste 100 energy on something that doesn't do anything by that time. Look at frost, his 4th still useful because it freezes enemies giving U a breath and reduce enemy armor. and for saryn..nothing

Edited November 6, 2015 by Windy_Wind

[Oishii]

Lv 60 Grineer at 40% power strength? Yeah, I think Saryn's holding up pretty well. 

??? I don't know what point you are making so what you are at 40% power, your viral procs aren't increasing in terms of power. I don't understand your point about 40% power strength, more power strength doesn't make a build better, you have to sacrifice certain stats to gain more power strength. No warframe power should be discussed over I was able to kill some level 60 at enemies with only 40% power strength. I, a single person can wreck any warframe, without powers just using my forma'd up guns, therefore if DE creates a warframe who literally has no powers and no armor/hp out of the ordinary this warframe would be completely fine?

 

Level 60 is pretty darn low, I mean level 60 is low enough that heavies are going to be dying in 1 hit from my vaykor hek or rakkta with a headshot. If i body shot them with my boltor prime it's going to take a couple of seconds and this is assuming no corrosive projection, never mind that these are heavies I am talking about and not normal enemies.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Oishii

[Invidia21]

Lvl60 grineer is serious business now? Level 60 is pretty low..... you are getting to the point where you might consider headshoting with a 5 forma weapon instead of foot shotting everything. If anything level 60 is what end game missions should start enemy levels at.

 

Banshee and nova do her job much better. She is like oberron, not bad if loki or nyx existed, but sadly both saryn and oberron exist in a world where banshee, nova, loki, and nyx do exist.

 

A lot of people do realize spore is her best ability, being in denial and white knighting DE while calling other people dumb because they realize this though is just silly, you have to compare things relatively.

That's my point, its not and her kit does not even scratch most heavy units at level 60, forget going higher, requiring entire pools of energy to complete the task.

 

 

Lv 60 Grineer at 40% power strength? Yeah, I think Saryn's holding up pretty well. 

 

Still waiting for that screenshot of yours where you're doing decent damage at a reasonable amount of time, btw if you're showing a summary report make sure to post the abilities used, weapon kills etc.

[DameDameNingen]

those are the 'press-4-to-win' guys, don't listen to them >.> 

 

This whole idea that everyone who isn't totally in love with the rebuild must a p42winner is quite irritating.

 

I don't even have fleeting expertise.

[Yazeth]

Saryn is too fragile to make full use of her abilities. To get Toxin on your enemies through the use of her abilities only, you would either 1) Run into a crowd, cast Molt, and cast Spore on Molt, or 2) Cast Toxic Slash and hack at the enemies. Because her effective health was dropped by roughly 100 points, she is more squishier than before. This encourages players to play as a caster, but since only 2 of her abilities are effective at a distance, players would need to be a lot more aggressive if they want to make use of the 100% damage for Miasma when casted on Toxin-proced enemies. I try to play Saryn w/ melee-only in two T4E missions solo and I would get killed at least once with her for those two missions I've played with her.

 

If you want to encourage Saryn to be played as a caster, make her Molt similar to Loki's Decoy (place Molt on an targeted location) and Toxic Slash similar to Excalibur's Exalted Blade (slash waves). If you want to encourage Saryn to be played as more of an close-up tank, revert her Health and Armor change and add an extra damage mitigation while using Toxic Slash.

[rawr1254]

This whole idea that everyone who isn't totally in love with the rebuild must a p42winner is quite irritating.

 

I don't even have fleeting expertise.

Better do them vault runs then

[Noteybook]

They did?

Eh well my computer is out of commission so i can't really play anymore

But still with him flying about everywhere it's hard for the Ai to get a good beat on him. 

 

Bladestorm is getting a "rework" because it's not "interactive" enough. The only qualm about BS is that the camera pops are rough, but toher then that, it's fine as is. But it's not button mashy enough apparently.

[Pro3Display]

issue:

 

warframe is a game of fast pace

 

poison is a weapon of slow death

 

new saryn is better than old one and deal more damage

delayed by 10 seconds

 

p.s.

i know there are poisons that kill fast but it is not one of them

Edited November 6, 2015 by Pro3Display

[Noteybook]

The rework was a nerf. In order to have her Miasma be effective, you have to spam 2 and 1, or just her 1 and 3. The energy costs and the lack of a dump stat to make the damage numbers not outclassed by most weapons is the problem. Also, why is her "synergy" more of a super dependence rather then how Excalibur or Frost's synergy works?

 

Sure she can manage up to level 40, but just about any frame could, especially if you have a weapon that isn't a Mk-1 Braton. That part of her hasn't changed because she wasn't really an endgame frame, just a low to mid tier room clearer. It's now just needlessly complicated to get a power to work. Why would I take Saryn when I could take Ember or Frost? Why would I take Saryn? What about her is unique now?  

 

As for people saying "you just want press 4 to win" The game is a hoard mode, it's kind of paradoxical to have crazy enemy spawns where if you let your guard down for a moment you're dead, but dislike nuke frames that handle the hoards of spawns. Maybe if the game was slower like in Closed Beta I'd understand, but as fast as it is now you basically need nukes on higher missions.

[LisRestall]

Everything I wanted to say as feedback has been said already by others except two things.

 

Toxic Lash needs to have a different type of damage, it needs to be a finisher DoT so it could actually do some damage. Why? I tested it a few minutes ago on T4S until 35 minutes. What did I see? Toxic Lash doing some cute 2 digit damage. DE please. To add, please change Toxic Lash augment into something like a small % -armor and short duration stun on any enemies hit while buff is active because she badly needs some survivability in the form of crowd control.

 

Miasma still needs so much frequent recasts for the stun which is badly needed in this horde game but due to the nerf (revertion to old miasma), quick recasts actually makes it deal significantly less damage. Change Miasma into something like Accelerant, very quick cast with a stun and decent range but instead of increasing x element incoming damage, make it deal x  corrosive damage to any target affected by poison, x2 damage if with viral.

[rawr1254]

The rework was a nerf. In order to have her Miasma be effective, you have to spam 2 and 1, or just her 1 and 3. The energy costs and the lack of a dump stat to make the damage numbers not outclassed by most weapons is the problem. Also, why is her "synergy" more of a super dependence rather then how Excalibur or Frost's synergy works?

 

Sure she can manage up to level 40, but just about any frame could, especially if you have a weapon that isn't a Mk-1 Braton. That part of her hasn't changed because she wasn't really an endgame frame, just a low to mid tier room clearer. It's now just needlessly complicated to get a power to work. Why would I take Saryn when I could take Ember or Frost? Why would I take Saryn? What about her is unique now?  

 

As for people saying "you just want press 4 to win" The game is a hoard mode, it's kind of paradoxical to have crazy enemy spawns where if you let your guard down for a moment you're dead, but dislike nuke frames that handle the hoards of spawns. Maybe if the game was slower like in Closed Beta I'd understand, but as fast as it is now you basically need nukes on higher missions.

So...

 

Old Saryn: Enemy has 50000 health = 5 miasmas  Min energy needed 25*5 = 125

New Saryn: Enemy has 50000 health = 1 spore 1 miasma 1 molt Ok yea nerf sure Energy needed 12.5+6.25+25 = 43.75

 

Nerf no? Buff yes only you have to be smart to see it.

[Tostov]

Saryn got a buff to her 1 and 3 abillites, and a nerf/fix to miasma.

That's what happened. It's a rework, Miasma changed so that negative duration was not literally making it do more damage (because the old calculation used Damage/Duration, and if you know some math, if duration < 1, then it's actually increasing the result). Trying to reach old miasma damage is like trying to beat a glitched speedrun without glitches.

Spore needs to spread all toxic based proc damage (so gas and corrosive procs), Molt needs to draw aggro better and maybe be more durable/have invuln. timer, 3 needs a little something more to make it shine and Miasma needs its damage tuned up via a nice increase to duration or power (doubling either one (but not both) should help make it a significantly more appealing investment).

[Enedora]

My first line of advice before we begin: Stop focusing on Miasma. It's taken a small hit to efficiency but it wasn't necessary before, and it (certainly) isn't necessary now.

 

This strategy features Spore, Her new (old with new name) Q due to it's massive AOE damage potential. This is not a melee strategy, it's a ranged strategy focusing on popping as many spores as possible to reap the benefits.

 

This is our Benchmark, as far as I can tell. Reach this potential, and the problem is solved

 

Miasma (pre-patch):

Maximized Power Strength & Minimized Power Duration increase damage to 8,968.4 per tick and 13,228.4 in total.

 

So. How do we hit 13k with 25 damage spore ticks? First, we need to understand how the ability works. At range, cast spore on an enemy. He will then carry Visible spores on him that deal him tick viral damage and have a 50% chance to reduce his overall HP by half for a few seconds. If someone managed to hit one of the spores, it will detonate, dealing the tick damage, automatically inflicting the Viral effect, and spreading three spores to all the units within 16 meters (which is, in case you were wondering, a massive AOE all things considered. In fact, it is longer than the base range of Miasma, which is our comparison skill) of the original target. All of THOSE enemies have the visible spores on them as well, and can be detonated in a likewise fashion to continue the chain.

 

"But you'd have to hit them precisely, and this all equates to 25 damage even if you hit them. Not to mention, halving someone's HP is equal to doubling your own damage, and there are way better options than that!"

 

I'd agree with everything that was said above, except I'd actually only half agree with the last half of it. Sure, there are other ways to get a 100% damage boost, but you don't have to hit them precisely, it doesn't equate to 25 damage, and there aren't very many better options for doing something like this...

 

https://youtu.be/jMN_MgFjS-k

 

This run would have made it to 60 minutes, but had one essentially afk for the last 25 minutes and we just wanted to leave. I was still melting groups en masse. Read the description for all the little details, but to put it bluntly, I don't have anything fancy on my frame. Intensify and Stretch is as far as I modded it, and you've now seen how it worked in late t4

 

Now since I've given you the opportunity to watch the video, I'll assume you've seen it so I can explain what's happening. The weapon being used is the Hikou Prime, with Concealed explosives, maximum fire rate, and maximum multishot. The key is to get as many explosions on target as possible within a short frame of time. The explosions hit everything in an area. Everything, Including the spores. When the spores propagate to the additional targets, hitting those targets with an explosion will pop ALL of the spores, and deal 25 * X = the number of spores in viral damage (which is effectively doubled on the half-HP targets).

 

Let's assume six enemies, so five targets to spread to for the first wave. First target is hit by Spore, and takes a very tiny amount of Viral damage. Then you hit him with any AOE-based (Ignis, Torid not yet attempted, but I must imagine the Ignis must be absolutely insane) or explosion based weapon (attica, kunai, hikou, etc) and the viral cuts all target's HP's in half, breaks all three spores, and does 75 damage in an area. However, for every one spore you break, three spores are added to every target in a 16 meter range. See what I'm getting at? Three spores, three spores created when each is hit, thus nine spores for each of the five secondary targets, so our three has increased to 45. I might mention that if you're using the Hikou Prime, your next Hikou will be hitting it's target in 2/27ths of a second (with maximum fire rate).

 

2/27ths of a second later, all 45 explode in an AOE of 16 meters. The last explosion was a paltry 75 damage. This one won't be. Damage is 45*25 or 1125 Viral damage (effectively doubled, because they have half HP) and each individual enemy that was hit with this explosion (we're assuming the five) will spawn three spores for every one that was hit by the explosion. Nine spores initially on each target, so Twenty-Seven spores, per target, and these propagate to every target. But for the sake of making these numbers realistic (because at this point, if you do the math correctly there would be 675 spores on those six targets, looking at very nearly 17k damage, doubled, at the 6/27ths of a second mark, which I might say is Quite the improvement over Miasma!) We'll assume the count of spores per target is capped at ten.

 

Assuming six enemies at the ten spore cap, that's 1500 Viral damage every 2/27ths of a second until everything dies, the number of targets increasing (likely) or decreasing (equally or more likely due to death), or you run out of explosive ammunition.

 

THE GOAL:

 

Miasma (pre-patch):

Maximized Power Strength & Minimized Power Duration increase damage to 8,968.4 per tick and 13,228.4 in total.

95 energy, hella mods

 

Spore does cumulatively

 

Initially: No damage

2/27th's of a second after: 75 damage

4/27th's of a second after: 1200 (1125 + 75)

6/27th's of a second after: 2700 (being VERY un-generous to Spore)

8/27th's of a second after: 4200

10/27th's of a second after: 5700

12/27th's of a second after: 7200

14/27th's of a second after: 8700 damage

 

25 energy, no mods

 

This is just slightly over a quarter of the Hikou Prime's ammunition. Hold for another 1.5 seconds. Ignis can do even better, even faster, and apply mass status effects in the AOE. Would probably be insane If used well, but Hikou has a wider effect radius (thus can break more spores at once)

 

Now, realize that all of these figures are applied on a half-health target, due to Viral. Assume these figures are doubled. Also realize that finding more than six enemies in a 16 meter radius is generally easy even in spread out tiles, and with more targets the damage increases dramatically. You're welcome. Go have fun.

 

P.S. I hate the fact that DE didn't let me get this thread up before they went and buffed Spore. Everything in this video is doable without the most recent hotfix buff. The Hotfix made spore EVEN MORE ridiculous, so yeah.

[Magneu]

By the power of math and game mechanics I say; P42W, begone!

[rawr1254]

So...

 

Old Saryn: Enemy has 50000 health = 5 miasmas  Min energy needed 25*5 = 125

New Saryn: Enemy has 50000 health = 1 spore 1 miasma 1 molt Energy needed 12.5+6.25+25 = 43.75

 

Nerf no? Buff yes only you have to be smart to see it.

 

P4tw = P1234tw now

Edited November 6, 2015 by rawr1254

[bejuizb]

Now here's hoping the doomsday preachers and knee jerkers will proceed to take a hike. Forums need to be back to normal :c

[Enedora]

@rawr1254

 

In what world will you have a single enemy with 50k health? Put six of them in a room and new saryn will kill every one of them in 1.25 seconds.

 

Viral - Half health -> 25k health total

 

One spore -> 25 energy

 

One spore propagates between all the available targets (six of them) dealing 1500 damage every 2/27ths of a second (20250 in a second)

 

You don't even need to use Miasma.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Banding

[Pride]

i was doing this with ignis and torid before her rework it was always a good option now its just obscene. the hikou not a bad idea ill have to try that.

[rawr1254]

@rawr1254

 

In what world will you have a single enemy with 50k health? Put six of them in a room and new saryn will kill every one of them in 1.25 seconds.

 

Viral - Half health -> 25k health total

 

One spore -> 25 energy

 

One spore propagates between all the available targets (six of them) dealing 1500 damage every 2/27ths of a second (20250 in a second)

 

You don't even need to use Miasma.

YEa was just giving an example of a max efficiency build. And showing what you'd have to use to make miasma do max dmg. I know you dont have to use miasma anymore Im just showing if miasma IS what you want to use that's how much it'd cost to do the same thing as pre-rework.

[Sonicbullitt]

While I like and agree with the current changes to saryn on paper they were not put into practice very well. It seems like all of her abilities just don't deal enough damage at all she has no cc or stun to keep her alive to set up her combos, besides a measly decoy ability. Her damage is what was supposed to keep her alive, but without it and she has no form of offensive defense .

 

I don't mind doing more work to get good damage out of misama however the pay off for so much set up, time and energy before you deal any form of decent damage is disappointing. Misama dealing less damage then the old one with no debuffs is fine, but it seems to do no damage at all without debuffs and that isn't. You also deal this damage much too slowly thus get your self killed in the process, especially when guns or other frame's abilities could have just done the job much more quickly and efficiently without wasting so much energy or time.

 

Debuffs should allow Saryn to deal more damage, they should not be her ONLY way of dealing damage , that is dependence not synergy.

 

Loki is a good example of well balanced synergies, you can use every one of his abilities by themselves and they will be effective but if you use them together they work even better unlike, Saryn where if you don't use them in tangent they suck completely. Skills should synergize and combo but never be reliant on each other to be good. Even when the moons align and you use all her abilities perfectly, the damage output is too slow, unsatisfying, and costs way too much energy for what used to be just one skill. You literally can only use 2-3 rotations before you have to get more energy.

 

Besides misama getting nerfed they rest of her toolset still feels mediocre and situational just like before the buff the only difference now is that she doesn't have misama to fall back on and has less HP. She does not deal more damage then she did before don't try and bullS#&$ me, I have tested it out.

 

Warframe is a very fast paced game with very fluid combat you won't have time to sit still and apply all those debuffs before something or someone else kills them. DE need to increase her damaging abilities further, give her some kind of defensive buff or cc to allow her to cast these abilities properly and increase the DoT speed.

 

Thus right now instead of having one really overpowered ability ( which did need a nerf mind you) she now has 4 mediocre ones.

 

I have no qualms with the miasma nerf, my problem is that they did not buff her other 3 skills enough to compensate. So don't even try and call me a press4towin noob or "adapt and move on"" as a valid excuse for an argument.

 

EDIT: removed bold text for better viewing on black background

Edited November 6, 2015 by Sonicbullitt

[Enedora]

i was doing this with ignis and torid before her rework it was always a good option now its just obscene. the hikou not a bad idea ill have to try that.

 

I wish I knew what the blast radius of the Hikou was, but it's an obscenely useful tool with Spores, because if you see a group of them you can just aim the ground or the wall nearest to them and get more hits off. Like aiming a Rocket launcher, when aiming at a ground or wall it's the splash that nets you kills. if you aim right at them you can hit, but you can also miss.

 

Not to mention, the Hikou makes a laughingstock of the nullifiers, using their shield as a wall to mount explosions to pop spores.