Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[SlyckQuid]

maybe be getting rid of 3 , and adding in a gas AOE ability kinda of like Zephyrs  turbulence  , would be fun and help with the nerfs too hp and armor and needing soo much energy and she is suppose too spread disease , why not add gass too the mix with the rest of the musketeers :D just a thought

  

 

[Sonicbullitt]

 

I believe the rework is in the right direction. Before, her only used skills were Miasma to nuke/stun, and molt to heal/decoy.

I like how the rework makes all her abilities viable. There's just a few problems.

She's far less tanky (thanks to the health buff nerf) and in order to utilize her melee, you need to get close. The small armor buff isn't enough to mitigate the damage she use to beable to tank. Further more, her regenerative molt isn't as useful now, since the duration increases the time it takes to heal.

That being said.

 

Spores: I think its perfect as is. Does moderate damage. Instant proc of viral. Spreads other status effects to enemies when spores explode. And the best part about the rework, it spreads upon death.

I think this is a great skill now, and no need to change at all.

 

Molt: I feel she lost a lot of her survivability, and since Saryn was "supposedly"  a "tankier frame" yet has no tank capability anymore, a slight change to molt. Mesa is a squishy frame, but she has Shatter shield, that reduces, and reflects incoming damage. I'm not saying, change Molt into shatter shield, Im suggesting...

Since Molt is "shedding" her skin, why not have it dual cast. 

1st cast: Prepares the skin to be shed, effectively giving her a "layer" of skin around her body, reducing incoming damage by XX%, or absorbing damage by XX%. 

2nd cast: will "shed" the skin, and it will act like a decoy (like it is now) and last for the duration of the skill.

The duration is the same, and if it were to explode while on you, it's properties still stay the same (still does damage, or explodes upon being destroyed) Also. Double the explosion radius(you'll see why)

 

Toxic Lash: It's also fine as is-ish. Why strictly melee? Why not add that toxin damage to primary and sedondary? I don't really care too much, the increase in damage, damage reduction, and duration has also made this skill fairly good.

 

Miasma Overgrown: Saryn is a plant based frame. Most people become confused and think she's a disease based frame. I believe her ult should release vines with thorns that spread through the ground (same radius as miasma as is). When thorns touch enemies, they snare enemies for X seconds, stun them for x seconds (half the time of the snare) and pop spores, and makes molt explode. Also does 100% Extra damage for toxin and viral procs. After the ability is casted, the vines erode but leave behind their thorns (for x seconds) that slow, and inflict toxin proc on enemies.

 

 

This brings back her tankiness, keeps the skill synergy alive, and reminds people she's a plant frame, not a disease frame.

 

Current miasma stuns for 3 seconds, so the vines would stun for 3 seconds, and keep them snared another 3 seconds. he thorns would have the same effect as the Tar Moa, but in the form of a plant, rather then goo.

TL;DR : Keep spore, have molt give her the ability to get close range, toxic lash keep, change miasma to be plant based attack.

 

 spores don't spread on death btw, you still have to shoot them before the enemy dies otherwise no spread 

[DiabolusUrsus]

I have to say bravo, DE, on this rework. No sarcasm at all. 

 

One of the most longstanding and persistently valid criticisms of your game is that there's no real depth to it. It's running the same types of missions over and over and over against practically identical (in function) factions hampered progression that is 90% controlled by RNG. It's just a grind. A very flashy, pretty grind, but just a grind. This sensation is exacerbated by bland gameplay - 'Press 4 to win,' the old Snowglobe, overpowered weapons, etc.- and it seems like you guys are finally starting to address some of these problems. The game is becoming less bland bit by bit, which greatly reduces the tediousness of the grind.

 

Once again, bravo.

 

The new Saryn requires a lot more engagement on the part of the player, which is awesome. It feels good to play her now, provided you have a good group to play with that lets you actually bring her abilities to bear. This caveat brings to light a few of the flaws with the game as a whole that I think fuel a lot of criticism of the rework.

 

1. Players kill everything too quickly. Spore, Toxic Lash, and Miasma are loads of fun to chain together... provided you have enough time to chain them together. Spore and Toxic Lash take long enough that it's all too easy for whatever enemy you were targeting to get wiped away by a volley of bullets or another ability cast with more burst damage. Not to mention trying to spread procs through crowds that might not exist in the next second. 

 

If you have teammates that only care about increasing their kill count as quickly as possible, you can wind up not having much to do as Saryn. 

 

2. The game needs core mechanics like energy and health to be mostly divorced from RNG. Warframes need passive health regeneration, and either a low passive energy regeneration, or some way to regain energy through combat that is less effective than using Rage but does not require a mod. At the same time, 75% cost reduction to powers absolutely needs to go without being given proper penalties. 

 

It's easy for most of us to forget what it's like not having the right mods. Once you have your hands on Rage, Fleeting Expertise, and Streamline, your energy troubles are over. With proper modding your Warframes will have effectively infinite energy while things are going smoothly. With the right mod build, Saryn works wonderfully. 

 

But what about the people who don't have the right mods for the right build? They're out of luck and forced to play a Warframe that doesn't work properly until the game decides to give them what they need. (It is absolutely not fair to suggest that newer players be forced into the shark tank that is the trading channel if they don't have generous clanmates on-hand.) 

 

Modding in Warframe needs to be reworked into customization, not progression. Progression should not be controlled by RNG. Unmodded should be a viable option. Perhaps not ideal in most cases, but viable. 

 

PS: Saryn would do well with a slight increase to the range at which Spore pustules will spread, and Toxic Lash should be a toggle.

Edited November 6, 2015 by DiabolusUrsus

[Easymac]

 spores don't spread on death btw, you still have to shoot them before the enemy dies otherwise no spread 

Something's wrong then, because they spread upon death for me :)

[BansheePrime]

 spores don't spread on death btw, you still have to shoot them before the enemy dies otherwise no spread 

Read the 17.10.1 hotfix.

[Easymac]

I believe the rework is in the right direction. Before, her only used skills were Miasma to nuke/stun, and molt to heal/decoy.

I like how the rework makes all her abilities viable. There's just a few problems.

She's far less tanky (thanks to the health buff nerf) and in order to utilize her melee, you need to get close. The small armor buff isn't enough to mitigate the damage she use to beable to tank. Further more, her regenerative molt isn't as useful now, since the duration increases the time it takes to heal.

That being said.

 

Spores: I think its perfect as is. Does moderate damage. Instant proc of viral. Spreads other status effects to enemies when spores explode. And the best part about the rework, it spreads upon death.

I think this is a great skill now, and no need to change at all.

 

Molt: I feel she lost a lot of her survivability, and since Saryn was "supposedly"  a "tankier frame" yet has no tank capability anymore, a slight change to molt. Mesa is a squishy frame, but she has Shatter shield, that reduces, and reflects incoming damage. I'm not saying, change Molt into shatter shield, Im suggesting...

Since Molt is "shedding" her skin, why not have it dual cast. 

1st cast: Prepares the skin to be shed, effectively giving her a "layer" of skin around her body, reducing incoming damage by XX%, or absorbing damage by XX%. 

2nd cast: will "shed" the skin, and it will act like a decoy (like it is now) and last for the duration of the skill.

The duration is the same, and if it were to explode while on you, it's properties still stay the same (still does damage, or explodes upon being destroyed) Also. Double the explosion radius(you'll see why)

 

Toxic Lash: It's also fine as is-ish. Why strictly melee? Why not add that toxin damage to primary and sedondary? I don't really care too much, the increase in damage, damage reduction, and duration has also made this skill fairly good.

 

Miasma Overgrown: Saryn is a plant based frame. Most people become confused and think she's a disease based frame. I believe her ult should release vines with thorns that spread through the ground (same radius as miasma). When vines touch enemies, they stun enemies for X seconds, snare them for x seconds (double the time of stun) and pop spores, and makes molt explode. Also does 100% Extra damage for toxin and viral procs. After the ability is casted, the vines erode but leave behind their thorns (for x seconds) that slow, and inflict toxin proc on enemies. (similar to tar moa)

 

 

This brings back her tankiness, keeps the skill synergy alive, and reminds people she's a plant frame, not a disease frame.

 

Current miasma stuns for 3 seconds, so the vines would stun for 3 seconds, and keep them snared another 3 seconds. he thorns would have the same effect as the Tar Moa, but in the form of a plant, rather then goo.


TL;DR : Keep spore as is, have molt give her the ability to get close range, keep toxic lash as is, change miasma to be plant based attack.

[jwya]

2.5/ 2: it shouldnt be invincible if the quick thinking mechanism is in effect, as proper management using rage can achieve immortality and infinite energy (if health can be regained fast enough ie regen moult/ life strike)

3: Concept sounds nice, but 5 energy per spore is pretty generous, imagine how many enemies a polearm/ whip can hit

Edited November 6, 2015 by jwya

[Rankii]

I have to say bravo, DE, on this rework. No sarcasm at all. 

 

One of the most longstanding and persistently valid criticisms of your game is that there's no real depth to it. It's running the same types of missions over and over and over against practically identical (in function) factions hampered progression that is 90% controlled by RNG. It's just a grind. A very flashy, pretty grind, but just a grind. This sensation is exacerbated by bland gameplay - 'Press 4 to win,' the old Snowglobe, overpowered weapons, etc.- and it seems like you guys are finally starting to address some of these problems. The game is becoming less bland bit by bit, which greatly reduces the tediousness of the grind.

 

Once again, bravo.

 

The new Saryn requires a lot more engagement on the part of the player, which is awesome. It feels good to play her now, provided you have a good group to play with that lets you actually bring her abilities to bear. This caveat brings to light a few of the flaws with the game as a whole that I think fuel a lot of criticism of the rework.

 

1. Players kill everything too quickly. Spore, Toxic Lash, and Miasma are loads of fun to chain together... provided you have enough time to chain them together. Spore and Toxic Lash take long enough that it's all too easy for whatever enemy you were targeting to get wiped away by a volley of bullets or another ability cast with more burst damage. Not to mention trying to spread procs through crowds that might not exist in the next second. 

 

If you have teammates that only care about increasing their kill count as quickly as possible, you can wind up not having much to do as Saryn. 

 

2. The game needs core mechanics like energy and health to be mostly divorced from RNG. Warframes need passive health regeneration, and either a low passive energy regeneration, or some way to regain energy through combat that is less effective than using Rage but does not require a mod. At the same time, 75% cost reduction to powers absolutely needs to go without being given proper penalties. 

 

It's easy for most of us to forget what it's like not having the right mods. Once you have your hands on Rage, Fleeting Expertise, and Streamline, your energy troubles are over. With proper modding your Warframes will have effectively infinite energy while things are going smoothly. With the right mod build, Saryn works wonderfully. 

 

But what about the people who don't have the right mods for the right build? They're out of luck and forced to play a Warframe that doesn't work properly until the game decides to give them what they need. (It is absolutely not fair to suggest that newer players be forced into the shark tank that is the trading channel if they don't have generous clanmates on-hand.) 

 

Modding in Warframe needs to be reworked into customization, not progression. Progression should not be controlled by RNG. Unmodded should be a viable option. Perhaps not ideal in most cases, but viable. 

Bruh, you might want to take a look at https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/557106-long-saryn-build-analysis-comparing-old-and-new-miasma-lots-of-math/

 

TL;DR you need to do everything perfect all the time to even get close to old saryn.

[Creamed]

maybe be getting rid of 3 , and adding in a gas AOE ability kinda of like Zephyrs  turbulence  , would be fun and help with the nerfs too hp and armor and needing soo much energy and she is suppose too spread disease , why not add gass too the mix with the rest of the musketeers :D just a thought

I don't want to fan the flames more but ... the augment mod somewhat does that creating a toxin bubble for every enemy killed using her 3rd. Do we have to mod for that as well?

 

Requesting Saryn to be special and have 10 mod slots b/c the mods she needs is getting out of hand.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Creamed

[taiiat]

people will harp for days about Corrosive Status on Miasma as if it's going to be some saving grace, just like people harp that Rhino having more Armor would be relevant for a Warframe that has 2 big Health Bars in front of his Armor.

 

at neutral Duration, to completely Strip the Armor of an Enemy, you'd need to cast it at minimum 8 times.

 

minimum 7 Corrosive Status to bring Armor down low enough where you'll realistically deal enough more Damage for it to matter.

minimum 11 Corrosive Status for their Armor to be mostly stripped, making that Lv100 Enemy feel more like a Lv60 Enemy give or take.

minimum 20 Corrosive Status for their Armor to be almost completely gone. at this point the Enemy should feel pretty squishy. 1% of original Armor.

24 Corrosive Status for their Armor to round down to 0%.

 

 

it's just flavor to add to the theme, not a feature that will see much use. but since it adds to the Theme, i say why not ofcourse.

[Rankii]

Funfact: A Synoid Gammacor with a gas build is a better Saryn, becuz all you do is aim and spread the gas to proc the toxin on to everyone.

Torid, even nerfed into the ground as it is, is a better saryn; you can proc enemies in groups at a safe distance and aren't limited to the poison-type ones.

 

S-Gammacor, like you sais, is a better saryn for that reason

 

Ignis is a better saryn, since it can spread around procs at a better distance without being dependent on two other guns

 

Even CHROMA is a better saryn because his poison aura and breath get the job done better.

 

 

Can someone please remind the devs that this is a hoard-based shooter? I think they've gotten the impression that it isn't, somehow.

[Cleesus]

This thread is for Saryn feedback, please stay on topic. If you have any concerns feel free to pm one of us.

[GhostLacuna]

Miasma's stagger lasts at least: 4 seconds on humanoids, 3 on most Infested, and 2 on Chargers (drones are not affected.)

 

Current Miasma base damage after full synergy is (350 * (3 +1)) * 3 = 4200 at base duration, where increasing duration increases total damage and lowering duration lowers total damage.  Old negative duration Miasma had 4500 base damage.  With a raw damage comparison, new miasma is a 10% damage nerf, but since the enemies are Viral procced (and new spore pretty much guarantees that this will be the case since it procs 100% reliably and can actually be used alongside Miasma in the same build now,) new Miasma is effectively dealing 8400 base damage, which is an 86% increase over the old Miasma (assuming that you weren't Viral proccing the whole group by some method.) 

 

Overload base damage is 1012 but is increased by various factors, including headshot-eligibility, proc overlap, and up to 1/3 damage increase depending on how close enemies are to the cast point (this is before any environmental electronics are accounted for.)  Unless Overload is cast under optimal conditions (barring electronics,) it is unlikely to match Miasma's output. 

 

 

A 2 second Venom didn't really allow for effective spore distribution and didn't have guaranteed procs, either.  Using spore, I was able to reliably spread Viral status to the entirety of Draco, from end to end, with one cast of Spore that cost me 6.25 energy.  A 2 second Venom could not have done that remotely reliably. 

 

Out of curiosity, what mechanism were you using to spread Viral procs with a 2 second Venom?

 

Excalibur's balance see-saw is DE's greatest debacle in my eyes.  Current Excal is ridiculous, and no one who wants the game to make sense should condone his design.  Level XXX enemies is not Warframe.  It's Exploitframe.   Let's get back to real gameplay. 

 

Sorry but pre rework saryn damage was never as low as what your saying it might have been a base 4500 damage. but for example my Miasma was over 10k dealt over 0.37 seconds

 

that was with 185% power strength 175% efficiency so miasma was cast for 25 energy  and it dealt corrosive damage. 145 range so ok there as well.

 

time to setup old miasma 0.37 seconds. 10k damage. could cast it 12 times before your energy pool was out so 12x10000= 120000 damage over 0.37x12 4.44 seconds considering animation times etc it would probably have been around 5-7 seconds to do that.

 

New miasma has a damage of 647 per second over 3.08 seconds with the same 185% power strength as before rework

 

647x3.08= 1992.76 as base now lets input that in the formula

 

(647 * (3 +1)) * 3 

 

647*4 = 2588

 

2588 *3= 7764 total damage at 103% duration

 

so a lowering of the damage in my case 10000-7764=2236 damage

 

So in my case i gained no damage what so ever with the rework even if i changed duration to 103% to see what that would do for her.

 

But that is ok Miasma was very very powerful before i get that and that is not the issue i have with the rework.

 

total setup time for new miasma is either spore+lash+miasma so a minimum of around 3 seconds in a best case example. Or  if you use the other combo molt+spore+miasma

 

so 3 seconds to deal 7764 damage which is decent damage.

 

old miasma in the same timeframe?

 

0.37*8.015= 3.0155 seconds so lets say 6 miasmas  25 energy per cast so 150 energy  or half my saryns energy.

 

6*10k is still 60000 damage which is a bit higher then 7764 damage.

 

Now that is insane damage and one of the main reasons for the change.

 

7764 damage is still decent. But she took a pure DPS hit not only in the skill itself but also in the time you had to waste to set it up.

 

3.08 seconds is over 8 times the time it takes to deal the full miasma damage then it did before.

 

before Miasma was 25 energy at 175% efficiency

 

now it depends on the other skills to deal damage so a minimum of  6.25+12.50+25= 43.75 energy at 175% efficiency

 

Personally i can no longer have 175% efficiency on saryn any longer due to the need for duration so its 130% efficiency instead

 

so 17.50+35+70= 122.5 energy for a max damage miasma

 

So am i mourning Miasma?

 

NO

 

I dont even mod for it any longer.

 

Sure it can deal good enough damage which is fine.

 

The increase in setup time by 8 times and a energy cost increase of nearly 5 times is what kill any thoughts on building for miasma for me. 

 

Due to my deep deep hatred for anything that has to do with forced melee aka Lash i dont consider that either when i mod Saryn

 

The only thing i Mod for is Spore.

 

Molt does not last long enough even at a T2 ext to bother with so its only used as a spore bomb and regenerative molt.

 

This rework ended up doing one thing for me.

 

I swapped from 4+1+2 to 1+2 so i actually lowered the complexity of play. I now have one less ability to use.....

 

well ok i could use a miasma for its stagger at time but eh why bother.

 

Since spore proc viral and the increase in damage from base with 185% power strength is only by 17 points (base is 20 per spore, 185% power strength is 37) There is no need for power strength at all.

 

So i gain duration and can get more range if i feel the need.

 

Molt deals toxin but since the range is still bugged at a fixed 10 meter explosion and its damage is so low at 200 base 370 with 185% power strength

 

there really is no need to bother with it other then as a little decoy and healing tool.

 

Good work on DEs part of reducing my complexity of play and actually make her a DoT frame because that is all Saryn will ever be for me since the rework.

Edited November 6, 2015 by GhostLacuna

[Enedora]

Can someone please remind the devs that this is a hoard-based shooter? I think they've gotten the impression that it isn't, somehow.

And yet people are calling this a hardcore nerf on the basis of being slightly less effective against a single level 100 target.

 

You will kill every enemy on the map, every cast of spore, if you are playing anywhere near intelligently.

 

To be fair, you need to know how to spread spores, and also have a weapon that's at least decent for it. Barring that, Saryn will top the damage and kill charts in every run. No Frame can clear as hard as she does for the energy she spends, in the speed she clears it.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Banding

[JuanDeages]

So after a test drive in t4 survival, I have drawn a few conclusions:

 

1. You should be able to recast 3 to detonate 1 at will.

 

2. Buff HP back to 150. She needs rage now more than ever to do her job. Also effective health.

 

3. Miasma damage is noticeably lower than before. Even with just a Fleeting Expertise, I could one shot enemies for a little while, maybe up 15 mins in t4. Now even before the 5 min marker, enemies tank it with health to spare. The damage buff from viral/toxin seems to be fairly negligible as well.

 

Minor thing... I want my heels on the new skin.

 

My 2 cents.

[Darkyoung]

Full disclosure, I did not make this reddit post, however it does go over the math of why this is undisputably a nerf for saryn

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/3rq0sy/long_saryn_build_analysis_comparing_old_and_new/

 

Short version: She now uses more energy and more slots, to do the same or worse damage, in more time as she needs to do a perfect setup (Which can never be truly perfect, because of molts range)

 

Now will people kindly stop spouting nonsense about this being a buff?

 

If DE wants her to be a DoT frame, they need to up the damage, increase her range or preferably both.

 

[Machayna]

???

What is the question?  I'll be glad to clarify.  Basically I'm stating she uses a ton of energy to keep her skills rolling and this needs to be addressed.  Hope that helps.

[(PSN)kira4715]

Honestly her #3 should be a toggle aura that buffs her armor/move speed any enemy inside the radius get slowed/has less accuracy and spores auto detonate 

[TheBrsrkr]

Does Miasma give an AoE toxin process or is it just nuke mcnukersob?

[RHuckebein]

I want to clarify that the "Reb said everyone uses regen molt,and thats why they decided to nerf her stats around the optional augument mod" statement is false.

 

A lot of people seemed to have either misunderstood her saying she uses Regen Molt or simply made up that claim. I checked in with her and other DE employees just to make sure and they have all said that statement is false.

 

Please do not spread or create rumors to rile up the community, thank you!

 

What she said was, specifically, "The thing about saryn is you have to get closer than ever but you no longer have the stats to back them up, but that's what regenerative molt is for."

 

Which means, at the very least, that the dev team completely understood going in that nerfing Saryn's health was directly counteractive to the way they intended her to be played, and chose to go ahead with it anyway because 'lol regenerative molt.'  At the very least.

[(PSN)kira4715]

Also saryn's health should be buffed back to 150 

[Rankii]

Does Miasma give an AoE toxin process or is it just nuke mcnukersob?

It's neither.

[VoidNomade]

Also saryn's health should be buffed back to 150 

 

They thought everyone would now slot the molt augment with the new rework so they felt to nerf it. Maybe that was point on their list for that. A logical error.

[PainisDeWitt]

Toxic lash needs to go. 

I know it deals a good ammount of damage but for a 3rd ability seems a bit off to me :(

[Hammahness808]

Honestly, this just seems to be a way of nicely stacking all the Saryn posts into the waste basket without deleting them or allowing them to clog the general discussion or abilities' feedback categories.

 

Edit: What's the chances this mega-thread is given a proper and thorough comb-over?

Edited November 6, 2015 by TGKazein