Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[Cubewano]

Yep i can see that happening the only real good thing saryn got was the spore buffs besides that it feels like a bad temp did the rework

its the whole way de usually approaches any frame with a bad meta to its name, they're too focused on killing the meta and not on building a well balanced frame and it leads to things like this, or mag, or pre rework excal.

[(PSN)kira4715]

its the whole way de usually approaches any frame with a bad meta to its name, they're too focused on killing the meta and not on building a well balanced frame and it leads to things like this, or mag, or pre rework excal.

pretty much poor mag also needs a good rework DE needs to focus less on the meta and instead give more excal/frost reworks

Edited December 11, 2015 by (PS4)kira4715

[RealPandemonium]

pretty much poor mag also needs a good rework DE needs to focus less on the meta and instead give more excal/frost reworks

When was Mag nerfed in recent history, or even in the past couple of years?  

Edited December 11, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[Gurpgork]

When was Mag nerfed in recent history, or even in the past couple of years?

U17.5 changed Pull to require line of sight.

Before that, Greedy Pull was changed to not pull loot for teammates.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Gurpgork

[RealPandemonium]

U17.5 changed Pull to require line of sight.

Before that, Greedy Pull was changed to not pull loot for teammates.

Pull was LoS for a while after Damage 2.0, and bugged at some point, so that's been intended.  It's true that DE leaves bugged BS in the game for so long that people treat it as a nerf when they pull it, but it is what it is.  

 

Greedy pull isn't core functionality, so it can't really be counted as a nerf to Mag.  It was a nerf to factory farming, if anything.  

Edited December 12, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[Quinquefolia]

Not to hijack the thread, but any other Saryn players noticing a significant framerate hit when built for spore spam? As in, 15 waves into a defense mission and you notice it, 30 waves and it's crushingly low (2 FPS with my setup). Will provide more information if it's relevant, but curious if others are having this problem. It's making her utterly unplayable for me in higher tier games, and that is VERY sad pandas.

[Hammahness808]

I think having so much focus on "synergy" and offense is not doing so well. I think with poisons and toxins at Saryn's disposal, her role as a caster should be expanded on a bit more and give more crowd control. Even Ember, who's overall theme is dealing damage (with damage from Fire procs obviously accounted for) can effectively have more crowd control than Saryn. I made a thread about it but, in short...

 

Spores:

-Apply a 'slow' status affect to any enemy that have spores on them.

 

Molt:

-Remove the Shield+Health and instead give it a short timer (unaffected by mods), forcing Molt to explode at the end of it.

-On explosion, blinds enemies for a short duration as well. (affected by mods)

-Add an instant heal of a small chunk based off max life. Not too large to make regenerative molt unworthy of equipping but enough to notice and want to use when losing life quickly. (unaffected by mods)

 

Toxic Lash:

-Add a powerful slow effect to affected enemies.

-Add lifesteal per hit, at a rather small percentage like 0.5-1% or a flat amount.

Alterantively:

-For the duration, a paralyzing cloud of toxin follows Saryn around and affects enemies in a small radius (a bit outside melee range).

 

Miasma:

-Allow Miasma to debuff affected enemy damage permanently. Taking away about a third to half of what it was and cannot be stacked.

Alternatively:

-Allow the 'corroding clouds' to corrode both shield and armor for a large percentage (75% max shields/armor, over the current 3s duration).

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/575890-saryn-the-toxin-themed-warframe/#entry6528059

Edited December 12, 2015 by TGKazein

[Exodess]

The Saryn craze never died down. DE's entire strategy was to get us to wear ourselves out (you can only repeat the same complaints so many times), and once nobody is talking about Saryn anymore they can retire this thread and neglect to ever bring up Saryn again. Or change her just before Saryn Prime hits the market to build up hype. There's no desire to tweak Saryn for balance's sake, even though she remains on a lower tier.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Exodess

[THND3RZ]

Honestly,all i want is the molt to be invulnerable to 4-5 sec at least.

Her contagion to give more deal some aoe damage on any target you hit with your melee.

And her hp back to 1100 like it used to be.She's too squischy right now i think.

 

Other than that,her rework is great and feels good to use especially the spore.

[mcryseria]

Well I for one will never let this thread die until she gets another fix. BUMP for DE FIX Saryn already.

[LordSebastian]

Well what can i say about current state of Saryn.
First of all, i'm Saryn player right since her release. and 80% of whole my WF time i played her, even when she was extremly bad(4spaming) I just feefing that this WF is mine. So about her stats and abillities

Stats
She absolutely needs HP and Armor buffs. She's now too squishy for almost-melee based WF( Lash, range of Miasma, range of Molt)

Venom
Almost perfect. Hi dmg Hi usefulness. But it seems there only 3 spores max can be on enemy(dmg doesnt stack, so DoT comes only from this 3 spores even through you've popped out 10 of them.) There must be cap, i agree, for that there wont be any 1-shoting AoE ability when in Hi-Endgame content. But not 3 spores. there must be like 6-8 spores max.
To fix this just would be great that DMG statcks at that cap, BUT the spore-spreading will be still 3(visually shown 3 spores that can be popped to spread venom(i would rather rename it now into Plague) but dmg from spores can be capped at  dmg from 6 -8 times. In simple - from each enemy you can spread spores 3 times, but dmg stacks 6-8 times. so, popping spore on second enemy will increase dmg on first.

Molt
Well, absolutely nice. cant say that Molt needs any tweaks. Maybe just 2-4 sec Immune to dmg (but for this 2-4 sec Molt aint Taunting enemy  to attack it.) it will provide comfort spore-spreading and stable buff for Miasma's dmg by combo. On hi lvl enemies, current molt just dies too fast.

Toxic Lash\Contagion
Provides Hi Melee dmg. Pops Spore. Provides bonus DMG reduction while Blocking. Comfort. Effective. No need of any changes.

Miasma
So, its still nice AoE with nice CC abillity.
But i think it need some tweaks.

So, i have 2 ideas - 1st simple and 2nd not so.
1st - increase radius. I cant remember, does Miasma pops spores, but it would be nice aswell, if not.
2nd - Make miasma as.....Ice globe. I'm talking about a Toxic Sphere, where every enemy, that entered in, will recieve dmg that current miasma provides. but it wont proc stun on them. Instead, it will slow them, and decrease accuarcy while in, and a few secs after.

So, that is my Idea.

Btw, if you want to say, that cause of DMG Reduction on 3, they nerfed HP, i will say that its pointless, because you cant harm enemy while blocking.(i'm talking about serious dmg that can kill it) This block effective vs 2-3 enemies, but vs 5+ Hilvl enemies(60+) its useless.

Numbers in my changes may be overpowered or underpowered, its just an idea,
 

[Exodess]

This is a bit of a rehash of everyone else's points, but here's where my complaints lie.

 

1) Restore HP/Armor values to pre-Tweak levels. The difference is negligible, yes, however its very existence in the first place serves no functional purpose other than to inflame Saryn users further.

 

2) Saryn has no dump stat. Opinions vary on what should be her dump stat, but something as simple as increasing her range across all her powers would give her more build flexibility instead of forcing her to minimally improve in all areas without gimping herself.

 

3) Saryn's required power synergies make her the biggest energy hog of all Warframes. Toxic Lash's problems (mentioned further below) make it useless in the post-game to remedy this situation. Saryn needs some kind of innate power discount or another mechanic to offset how many abilities she needs to use to maximize her effectiveness as compared to other Warframes.

 

4) Spores / Venom: Venom does not scale. Numerous tweaks have been suggested regarding this, but since it's a Tier 1 power and serves as Saryn's cheap de-facto damage multiplier ability, I can't really contribute anything that would render this ability too powerful in my eyes. 

 

5) Molt: Molt also does not scale to the damage that it needs to absorb. The logical solution: The 5-Second Invulnerability tweak which has been making its rounds (most recently, on Rhino -- which came out after the Saryn tweaks), and it makes no sense why Saryn's sole survivability power does not also feature this. Furthermore, the DE has hinted that they have balanced Molt off the use of a Syndicate Ability Mod, Regenerative Molt, which is wholly unfair. If that is indeed the case, then RM should be built into Molt, which would free up a slot for the aforementioned lack of a dump stat.

 

6) Toxic Lash / Contagion: Another power that is useless in the post-game due to the amount of damage enemies deal and the reliance on distance/cover. The general opinion is to make the damage resistance component a passive boost rather than requiring active behavior from the player. This is because attacks come from every direction, which severely limits this component of the power, especially when you have to move towards enemies (while exposing your back to others) to do so.

 

7) Miasma: The most reasonably asked for tweak is to guarantee Corrosive procs on Miasma DoTs, which makes the power scale well enough to compete with Saryn's current rival, Nova, in the post-game for damage multiplication (as opposed to Nova winning out on every possible scenario where you have a choice between the two). Right now the effect is intermittent at best, and does not trigger quickly or hard enough to synergize with the kill speed of alternative attack methods at that range. The CC component is also weak and the damage component does not stack, but these would be more reasonable restrictions if the Corrosive tweak is put in place.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Exodess

[Latiac]

Saryn is still useless for me, the fact that this thread is alive after an entire month AND rework ago shows that the community isn't happy with it as a whole.

 

DE revert Saryn and start anew, Or even better, Revert her back and keep her that way. Atleast she saw use then.

[(XBOX)SixPathsOfHate]

Pls DE just revert the miasma changes, you wanted saryn's other abilities to be on par with pre-rework miasma and you got that. So instead of nerfing the 4 in exchange for buffing the 1 and 3 (still think this ability is flat out useless).

 

How bout either

A: rework it to be an actual ultimate that has a use outside of the poor mans stun and energy eater. 

B: Revert the changes TO THE ULT giving the saryn players that loved the old saryn something to look forward to and keeping the rest of the changes for the other type of saryn player.

 

OR or or...just completely rework the frame but actually look at feedback from actual saryn players and not just the "X frame is stealing all my kills" player who probably has never even played with said frame.

 

One last note, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD REVERT THE EHP CHANGE, WHY WAS THIS DONE AGAIN? 

Edited December 13, 2015 by (XB1)SixPathsOfHate

[blazinvire]

So many people obsessed with Miasma, when I can honestly say it's never been overly useful to me in either incarnation beyond the AoE stun.

Nukes just... aren't really all that interesting, and for an ability that's named after a toxic mist, it's function seems a bit off.

They're making ultimates more dynamic and interactive, and as much as Miasma's numbers are dynamic, its use certainly isn't.

 

Why can't we have a toxic mist that floats around and melts things, as opposed to an explosion?  Have it orbit Saryn and move about like a crazy kubrow, you could still have her other abilities feed it and augment it, from growing off of eating spores or doing something to a Molt, or even making it move around with Toxic Lash like your weapon has become a conductor's baton.

[(XBOX)SixPathsOfHate]

So many people obsessed with Miasma, when I can honestly say it's never been overly useful to me in either incarnation beyond the AoE stun.

Nukes just... aren't really all that interesting, and for an ability that's named after a toxic mist, it's function seems a bit off.

They're making ultimates more dynamic and interactive, and as much as Miasma's numbers are dynamic, its use certainly isn't.

 

Why can't we have a toxic mist that floats around and melts things, as opposed to an explosion?  Have it orbit Saryn and move about like a crazy kubrow, you could still have her other abilities feed it and augment it, from growing off of eating spores or doing something to a Molt, or even making it move around with Toxic Lash like your weapon has become a conductor's baton.

I personally wouldnt mind them making her 4 more toxic themed but her 3 and 2 dnt make sense then imo. If anything, they should just start from scratch cause what we have now isnt even a rework.

 

Im not gonna go into detail on what should and shouldnt be done to make her more "toxic themed" cause its been done a million times.

[TunaMayo]

I was never a big Saryn fan because I never liked the whole, "Press 4 to do AoE damage" that used to be the rhetoric when it came to frames and new frames which Saryn encompassed wholly. 

 

But I decided to give Saryn a shot recently as I remembered she got a rework around U17 and I really like Frost after his.

 

So after looking up the combos now and how to build her, I can't help but feel that she's still kinda "bleugh" and missing something. 

 

The Good:

 

1. They made venom usable again, Yay!

 

2. They made her do enough damage to hit high-end enemies hard.

 

3. They are starting to promote Synergy within Warframes which is a Step in the right direction.

 

The Bad:

 

1. Her armour is still low for a frame with high HP and seemingly expected to be in proximity to the enemy given her kit. 

 

2. Renaming Contagion as Toxic Lash didn't alter the fact that it is a pretty lackluster ability on a non-melee focused frame. Against low-mid level enemies you don't need the toxic lash to increase your combo, against high level enemies you can't get close without dying. I still feel like this ability needs a bigger change than Toxin proc and name change. Either Saryn needs more armour to allow her to use Toxic Lash properly, or Toxic Lash needs a ranged component for the combos to be safer. But given that molt already fulfills the Toxin category for Saryn's combo, it would be nice if Toxic Lash just became something else.

 

3. The Synergy that was supposed to be achieved by the rework feels more like obligatory ability spam. Individually her abilities don't really do a lot, together they do lots of damage. But this forces Saryn into ability spamming, including spamming Miasma often which is a big energy drain. Reducing the Energy cost to say 50 would make this a lot less of a hassle.

 

Sorry if I offend any Saryn lovers, but to me the rework changed a one-cast nuker frame into a three-cast nuker frame without any significant changes to energy pool or costs, all whilst retaining a melee steroid on a frame with little survivability without an augment. I feel like there is still work that could be done here but isn't.

[B0N3M4N]

We already said this but DE decided to give us some more testing before actually modifying something on her, tho it's still a good thing to remember them that the Saryn's Rework is a good point where to START, but not where to end.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Redskull94

[Pridesfury]

I love the new saryn she could use some QoL like molt gaining iron skin globe scaling and toxic lash having innate lifestrike but other than that she is a goddess already

[RexRgisIocus]

I truly don't know how people run into energy problems with Saryn. I've used her in level 3 survival sorties with the energy reduction condition, with and without Trinity, without running into too many problems (and I don't use energy restores, ever). 

 

Still I agree. Toxic Lash should just be replaced as its a redundant skill that doesn't offer much.

 

Its sorta like Rift Surge. It isn't completely useless but using it will just get you killed. 

[SlightVect]

Two steps forward, one step back. That's all there really is to it but atleast there's progress. 

 

As it currently stands. Her bases need to be better, mainly armor, and her Melee focused ability needs to be dropped. The ability may fit with her theme but not with her kit as she is still primarily a caster. 

 

Although I have no suggestions I certainly do dislike not seeing her around. Feels weird. 

[rawr1254]

I truly don't know how people run into energy problems with Saryn. I've used her in level 3 survival sorties with the energy reduction condition, with and without Trinity, without running into too many problems (and I don't use energy restores, ever). 

 

Still I agree. Toxic Lash should just be replaced as its a redundant skill that doesn't offer much.

 

Its sorta like Rift Surge. It isn't completely useless but using it will just get you killed. 

[Atmos_Tech]

Miasma

 

found the problem. mass spreading spores is more useful than miasma fam

[The-Matrix]

Saryn is quite good in her state but she one of the fiew and maybe the only one who needs armor (because of melee ability), energy (combo), power (dmg to kill fast ofc), range (you dont want to be surrounded by 100 ennemies), duration+ efficiency (3 second ability+ huge energy consomption ? No thanks), health (to tank) and her molt augment mod to heal.

 

Well not enough mod slot DE ^.^

As is said, you can still do ok but at high end content she is really too squishy and once again she got a melee ability. More over, Saryn was known as the first female tank which is not the case at all in her current state.

Edited December 14, 2015 by The-Matrix

[DSMatticus]

One last note, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD REVERT THE EHP CHANGE, WHY WAS THIS DONE AGAIN? 

They took it away to give it to Saryn Prime. That's not me making a cynical joke, Saryn Prime is virtually guaranteed to have at least the pre-rework EHP. It's kind of funny how we've gone from "primes will only ever be cosmetic bling" to "we will nerf your frames to make you want our primes even more." I don't actually mind that primes have better stats, just to be clear (well, I didn't mind until they started vaulting them - that's pretty BS). But I will be genuinely insulted if (when) Saryn Prime comes out and has the pre-rework's EHP.

Edited December 14, 2015 by DSMatticus