Long Saryn Build Analysis Comparing Old And New Miasma - Lots Of Math

[Drinniol]

A reality check on new Saryn's miasma numbers - comparison to old miasma

 

I see a lot of claims being made about new Saryn miasma without any math to back them up.  Here's the (not-so) simple facts on miasma pre and post rework:

 

WARNING - MATH AND BUILD DISCUSSION - LONG - EFFORT POST

 

The most common hangup is this: some people say that new Saryn Miasma with the Toxin and Viral bonuses matches or exceeds old Saryn Miasma.  Some say it doesn't.  Who's right?

 

Let's investigate what pre-rework Saryn could do and what post-rework Saryn can do to see. 

 

Pre-rework Saryn:

 

Pre-rework Saryn did 5.8k corrosive damage with a corrosive proc in a build that included fully maxed power range (stretch and overextended) and fully maxed power efficiency (streamline and fleeting), with intensify and Transient Fortitude, and still have room for 2 mods not directly affecting power stats - usually filled with Vit and either regen molt or rage. You could dump Overextended to go up to about 8.6k while losing a good chunk of range, and gaining a third non-power-stat slot, or you could dump intensify and go down to 4.4k damage to get that slot while preserving range - maybe put in a nice primed flow for low level content so you start with that big energy reserve.

 

You could, of course, also dump a bit of efficiency for even MORE damage through a higher ranked blind rage instead of intensify, which you would do if you were going into a group with EV trin, or you were running rage and regen molt together. You could also devote another slot to running both intensify AND blind rage. That's where you get 10+k miasma numbers from, with the exact amount depending on your rank of blind rage. If you wanted to remove Overextended you could get even higher (Maximized damage was 13.2k - but this was silly as it cost 95 energy), while preserving a slot, and whether you would do this depends on your mission type and playstyle.

This damage all took place over a fraction of a second, so you could spam Miasma for very high DPS. You'd generally use something like the 5.8k damage build that had max efficiency/range for rushing through easy content, and a higher damage build sacrificing either range or efficiency (or both) for higher level missions and group play.

 

It's important to have all this as a reference point so you can actually compare the reworked ability.

 

Post-rework Saryn:

 

Pre-rework Saryn did 5.8k corrosive damage with a corrosive proc in a build that included fully maxed power range (stretch and overextended) and fully maxed power efficiency (streamline and fleeting), with intensify and Transient Fortitude, and still have room for 2 mods not directly affecting power stats - usually filled with Vit and either regen molt or rage. You could dump Overextended to go up to about 8.6k while losing a good chunk of range, and gaining a third non-power-stat slot, or you could dump intensify and go down to 4.4k damage to get that slot while preserving range - maybe put in a nice primed flow for low level content so you start with that big energy reserve.

 

You could, of course, also dump a bit of efficiency for even MORE damage through a higher ranked blind rage instead of intensify, which you would do if you were going into a group with EV trin, or you were running rage and regen molt together. You could also devote another slot to running both intensify AND blind rage. That's where you get 10+k miasma numbers from, with the exact amount depending on your rank of blind rage. If you wanted to remove Overextended you could get even higher (Maximized damage was 13.2k - but this was silly as it cost 95 energy), while preserving a slot, and whether you would do this depends on your mission type and playstyle.

This damage all took place over a fraction of a second, so you could spam Miasma for very high DPS. You'd generally use something like the 5.8k damage build that had max efficiency/range for rushing through easy content, and a higher damage build sacrificing either range or efficiency (or both) for higher level missions and group play.

It's important to have all this as a reference point so you can actually compare the reworked ability.

 

Post-rework Saryn:

 

The new Miasma does 350 damage a tick base, with 4 ticks base (1 instant, 3 each second thereafter) for a total of 1400 damage. It follows that to hit damage parity with old Miasma's low damage solo build (not DPS parity, just damage per cast), you'd need a total of about 5800/1400 = 4.14x damage multiplication. And to hit damage parity with her group build (10000 damage), you'd need about 7.14x damage multiplication.

 

Is this achievable?

 

Yes and no. And that's exactly the point where I think people are talking past each other.

 

If you have both toxin and viral procs up, you have a 3x damage multiplier on your miasma. If you allow viral procs halving enemy health to count as the equivalent to a multiplicative 100% multiplier, you have 6x. This substantially EXCEEDS the old low damage build! As long as we don't drop below a .7 strength times duration product, we're gold.  And with enough strength and duration above that, we might even be able to get damage rivaling the old Saryn higher damage builds.  We'll have to investigate to find out, however. 

 

BUT. 

 

Boy, that's a but big enough to be worthy of Saryn, eh? What's that about?

 

Well, simply put, it's about Duration.

 

Remember all those old Saryn builds? Every single one of them had a power duration of… 12.5%. If you ran that now, your miasma does 1/8th the damage. We want it to do 70% damage to match even our old low damage build, so obviously, that ain't gonna fly.

Let's try and match our low damage high range build first. If nothing else, we want to be able to at least mow through low level content, right?

 

Remember that 5.8k damage build above for old Saryn? That had MAXED power range, and efficiency, and STILL had room for two utility/survivability mods. If you're trying to maintain max efficiency (and you better, because now you need to get those toxin and viral procs up to even have a chance of competing with old Miasma per cast damage), you're running fleeting expertise. That means your duration takes at least a 50% hit, assuming a rank 4 fleeting. That HALVES your Miasma's damage now! Well, that ruins everything doesn't it? OK, so now we need to put on something like Primed Continuity (Obviously we all have rank 10 primed continuities - right?). Can we run Narrow Minded instead? Sure, though if we do that, we're no longer maximized range. In either case, we need a duration mod, so that's a slot out of commission. And, of course, our old Saryn could have had maxed range when nuking for 5.8k. So if we're truly wanting to match that, we're running overextended just like old Saryn was. But geez, -60% power damage? That's... pretty devastating. How did old Saryn deal with that? Ah, Transient Fortitude for +55% damage, perfect! Wait, now we're at taking a 27.5% hit on duration. Is it worth it? We'll do some math later and see (it is, with R10 primed continuity at least). But we need something to up our damage to hit our target, and, of course, we also need everything to be toxin and viral procced.

 

By the way, about that… How do we do that? Spores spread range is as far as Miasma (actually, a bit further), so we're golden on viral. But if we're applying toxin with Molt, it only has a 10 meter explosion range base as opposed to Miasma's 15… So no matter how we mod we're losing a third of our damage on enemies in the last third of our range, assuming we're casting everything in place (I mean, I guess we could run at the enemy - but at that point, why even bother pretending we care about range?) And because of the way geometry works, the AREA encompassed in the last third of our straight line range is actually 56% of the total area affected by our ability…

 

We prefaced this entire discussion on the assumption that we would have viral and toxin bonus, and we only met parity with old Saryn including them. As soon as we drop that bonus… our damage is plummeting compared to Old Saryn. And now we're seeing that 56% of our miasma range is either not going to have toxin, or require us to spread toxin with a weapon first, or require us to reposition closer (in which case we've just admitted defeat at having old Saryn's effective range). For now, let's ignore this issue and continue on, but this is a huge issue and having Molt's explosion upped to the same range as Miasma or slightly greater like spore is would be a HUGE buff to the new Saryn and make the whole kit come together a lot more cohesively.

 

So, to recap we're finding ourselves in a bind. We can't dump duration anymore, and this is costing us at least one slot for a primed continuity just to make up for our quite mandatory power efficiency mod. Fortunately, we only need to get our power strength up to 70%. There are literally only 3 options for power strength: Blind Rage, Transient Fortitude, and Intensify. Transient costs us duration, losing us damage while gaining us damage. Doing the math, we find that for our build with R10 primed continuity, .95 strength times .775 duration = .736 total damage multiplier on our Miasma. We'd be ever so marginally better off than with Intensify which brings us to .7 * 1.05 = .735. The tie breaker would be that Transient gives us the same total damage in less time, and gives us better scaling on our other abilities (such as they are).

 

We did it boys! We did it! We matched Old Saryn's damage output, range, and efficiency on Miasma for her old high-efficiency, high-range, lower-damage build, and it only took us

Streamline

Fleeting Expertise

Stretch

Overextended

Transient Fortitude

Primed Continuity (maxed)

 

We only have 2 free slots now, which is unfortunately 1 less than the ideal of 3 (which gives us the full package of vit, molt, and rage - taking care of survivability, health sustain, and energy sustain). We have to take vitality to not die. And we really, REALLY want rage because now we have to cast Molt and Spores before Miasma to attain our damage combo and that adds up even with maxed efficiency… So we probably have to lose Molt vs. our old Miasma build, which is unfortunate, but not too terrible.

So that's pretty much a success. We CAN match our old low damage high-range high-efficiency build, when we assume viral and toxin procs. The overall rework loses a lot of the actual farming/rushing ability due to needing to stack viral/toxin first, however. This is probably an intentional design decision by DE. Overall, though, we can match our old damage, range, and efficiency with only the loss of molt.

 

There are some heavy downsides we skipped, however. We spend 75% more energy and 2 extra casts to fulfill the conditions of this analysis, for one. New miasma no longer corrosive procs. We can meet parity, but only with viral and toxin procs. However, remember from earlier when we talked about molt having only 10m explosion range? A huge chunk of our range isn't going to be properly toxin procced, so we're going to go down to 2/3rds of our previously calculated damage if we only have viral. And, of course, this damage is spread out over time and you can't followup Miasma with Miasma cause it refreshes instead of stacking. Further, much of this was prefaced on assuming viral procs were actually a novel advantage of the new saryn, when anyone, including old saryn, can have mass AoE viral procs on demand with torid or ignis or another AoE proc weapon. If you take away the viral proc advantage, we're at a severe damage disadvantage - half damage! If you just naked miasma, you're doing a about a sixth of your old damage. If you just molt miasma, you're at about 1/3 the old miasma damage (since you lost the doubling power of viral).

If you always perfectly only cast new Miasma when everything is perfectly toxined and viraled, you're almost dead even with old Miasma. If you cast Miasma under ANYTHING OTHER THAN IDEAL CIRCUMSTANCES, you're facing a severe nerf. This is not synergy. This is dependency.

 

So that's a range build. Can the new miasma keep up with the old miasma damage builds that didn't use overextended?

We saw that having 2 mods NOT modifying power stats is pretty essential, to run at least Rage + vitality or Rage + Regen molt. Three mods would be even better. Dumping overextended frees up a slot. So let's dump it. We're down from 235 range to 145 now, which is a substantial loss. But, now we can have 3 slots now, so we can take care of our survivability and sustain. Moreover, we gained 60 power strength! This brings us from .74 damage multiplier on miasma to 1.365. That's not much shy of DOUBLING our damage. Dropping overextended is definitely the way to go now on new Saryn!

 

Where does that put our damage at relative to our old miasma builds? When we combine with our 6x multiplier from before, we're at an 8.2 multiplier on 1400 damage. That's the equivalent of 11,500 damage on old Saryn. That's… actually very respectable. Old Saryn typically didn't much exceed 10k damage a cast on miasma. Now, old Saryn could just spam that Miasma by itself over and over and over and not worry about only refreshing duration, so the total DPS output of old Saryn was still a lot higher. Furthermore, the damage per energy was higher because you didn't have to cast any prerequisites. But on a damage per Miasma basis, new Saryn actually comes out ahead of old Saryn (sort of - one thing to keep in mind is that the numbers you'll see are going to be half as big as before, but mean twice as much because everything has half health from viral). We're still facing a fairly hefty nerf to our DPS and responsiveness, but damagewise new Saryn can perform. Is there anything more we can do? Honestly not really. We can shift around some of our stats here and there with different corrupted mod combinations, but this is pretty close to the best we can do.

So, if you've read this far I truly thank you. Here's the

 

Tl;dr: On a pure numbers basis, Old miasma and new miasma are well matched. Assuming perfect toxin and viral coverage, it's very possible to reach parity with old Miasma on a per cast basis - though you still have the new challenges of setting up that cast.

However, keep in mind what we've glossed over in our analysis. We just assumed viral and toxin procs everywhere. We've glossed over a ton of extra cost in time, energy, and effort to apply those procs. We've glossed over Molt having less range than Miasma, impairing the application of toxin procs. We've glossed over the inexplicable loss of corrosive procs on miasma, lowering our damage and our utility because we can no longer shred armor. We've glossed over viral procs not actually being a damage buff, but a health reduction that, now, returns some of that reduced health if it falls off. We've glossed over viral procs being not a unique aspect of Saryn's new kit inaccessible to either old Saryn or other players, but actually freely available to anyone fairly easily - which vastly lowers the unique benefit of bringing a Saryn to your party. We've also completely glossed over the problems with Saryn's other reworked abilities (and there ARE substantial problems). We've glossed over the health nerf to Saryn that we were told was going to be a buff.

 

In summary:

You can get similar damage numbers to old miasma builds at the same range and efficiency. But, only if new Miasma is perfectly set up. Any deviation from a perfect setup results in a severe loss of effectiveness - 2/3 effective if you fail to have a toxin proc, 1/3 effective if you have a toxin proc but no viral proc, and a mere 1/6 as effective as old Miasma with neither.

The numbers don't lie although they can be pretty tricky.

EDIT: Actually, I made a mistake in my analysis. After we dump blind rage AND overextended, we actually have a third slot available (I edited post to reflect this - so if you're just reading this edit now you're probably confused about what I'm talking about). You can go for a third non-power-mod, or try to up your damage some more. In fact, CONSTITUTION gets you more damage than blind rage here.

So to be clear, the build I'm proposing as pretty close to optimal for new saryn is:

Constitution or Molt

Primed Cont.

R4 streamline

R4 Fleeting

Intensify

Stretch

Vit

Rage

Keep in mind that this is still not as good as old saryn (the whole point), but this gets you closer than any other build.

Double Edit: Thanks to https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/3rq0sy/long_saryn_build_analysis_comparing_old_and_new/cwqfs8u for pointing out a a huge hole in my analysis. My initial damage estimate of old Saryn's miasma was about 30 to 50% too high depending on the build. As a result, the entire analysis and the conclusions were necessarily quite off! I've corrected it as best I can tonight. You should also see his post https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/3rlwci/saryn_combos_and_analysis_17100/ where he has some good advice for new Saryn and discovers an interesting hidden feature: a multiplicative damage buff of apparently up to 100% based on missing HP of an exploded molt when you cast Miasma. It's a bit difficult to use in practice (trying to cast miasma RIGHT before a molt dies is very frustrating), but a very cool hidden way to gain some substantial extra damage.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Drinniol

[Rozalinsnow]

Ty for doing the math and explaining the difference so well, uptenno'd!

[ashrah]

saryn have same destiny like mesa....i personally think this is joke ppl invaste a lot of time to make stuff how they like and most of good builds needs at least 4 forma.....and than bam nerf......u build become   crap thatn u must again re-forma......no any sense really

[rawr1254]

So in summary: idk how to build my frame and also just want p4tw frames

[Drathin]

You should put this in the Mega thread or at least link it in there.

[Bahamus]

Thank you for this post, finally someone that tests and brings some results.

 

I like the rework, it is fun to use, it could be better with some tweaks, especially to energy cost.

imho I don't care much about it, but let's at least face it: it is a big nerf compared to what we had.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Bahamus

[Misgenesis]

Way to fan the flames.

[Tostov]

Or in other words, Miasma did get a nerf, yes, if you think anything else is the case, you are sorely mistaken.

This is because miasma literally had no mallus when using negative duration. Surprise surpise, it made it absolutely broken damage wise. In fact, it was literally advantegoius to reduce your duration down to its bare minimum, since past a certain threshold, it actually increased your damage.

In other words, you've been using a bugged abillity from the start as a comparison, what do you expect?


That being said, Miasma could definatly use a boost in the damage catergory, no doubt about that. Double the duration or the damage by default to make it a bit more appealing than the other radial 100 cost nukes, and make synergizing it extremely satisfying.

[hukurokuju5]

maybe they should have made it so if targets would suffer debuffs or effects bbased on the *none*  *toxin*  *viral* status of a target.

 

If not affected by toxin or viral status, no additional debuff/effect triggered by miasma

 

If affected by viral, miasma would also activate an, X , debuff/effect

 

If affected by toxin, miasma would also activate an, Y , debuff/effect

 

if affected by both, miasma activates X and Y debuff/effect

 

 

it would give more ways to add to the CHOICE, USABILITY, and FUN in her kit

[CelticMoss]

More math maxed hp of that regen molt on this end build is

 

50 x 1.3 = 65 x 10 = 650 hp if your molt lives though it all.

[taiiat]

your 'math' is biased against the current mechanics. (and comparing to exploits and blah blah)

and as expected, it's only 'calculating' the... 'press as few buttons as possible and everything dies' stat.

 

 

just like with say, Rhino - for a week or two people whined that the Loadout and method of play they used for Abilities that worked differently didn't produce the same results.

naive thinking.

 

i don't feel threatened by anything, and therefore have no urge to write pages and pages about theoretical math.

all i feel like saying is that i started with Lv100 Infested for testing, and had to switch to Lv100 Corrupted because the Infested were dying too fast for me to test anything.

and i leave much stat growth room for effectiveness, in favor of having a good time with Mods i'd like to have.

 

Players will simply need to actually look at the Warframe as a whole package, and see what's already coming along for the ride when they're looking to setup the Combo in the first place.

because the stairs on the stepping stool to the top of the ladder have a lot more to contribute than at first glance.

 

 

 

can you press one button and have Enemies all dying to 18-30,000 Damage (absolute minimum 12,000)? no. but there is no way to justify that as balanced whatsoever. or good Gameplay.

Edited November 6, 2015 by taiiat

[Drinniol]

I substantially revised my analysis, which is now much more favorable to the new Saryn (though still overall favorable to old Saryn).  I used an incorrect base value for old Saryn's miasma damage in my initial analysis.

[(XBOX)SixPathsOfHate]

Or in other words, Miasma did get a nerf, yes, if you think anything else is the case, you are sorely mistaken.

This is because miasma literally had no mallus when using negative duration. Surprise surpise, it made it absolutely broken damage wise. In fact, it was literally advantegoius to reduce your duration down to its bare minimum, since past a certain threshold, it actually increased your damage.

In other words, you've been using a bugged abillity from the start as a comparison, what do you expect?

That being said, Miasma could definatly use a boost in the damage catergory, no doubt about that. Double the duration or the damage by default to make it a bit more appealing than the other radial 100 cost nukes, and make synergizing it extremely satisfying.

The drawback from using a neg duration build was gutting the use of 1 2 3, which was fully understood and completely up to the player. If spore was as good as it is now compared to before then you would most likely see a mix of both max duration and neg duration saryns.

 

Neg duration gave you burst heals from your molt and high damage miasma but low damage spore and contagion.

 

Positive duration gives you slower but longer healing and made your 1 and 3 useful but didnt do much for your 4 in terms of raw damage.

 

PS. im crap at explaining things.

[LordRonin]

So pls taiiat telle us what is your build (detailed pls) and how do you play and ill chceck today in my simlation room vs lvl 100 mobs, how fast they die, cuz i'v been testing syren in simulation for few hours  in few defferent builds (forum builds) vs lvl 50-60 mobs and i had problems killing them, new syren and new miasma is weak compared to old one, and calling old miasma broken/bugged is a joke, like new ember is not broken, press 4 in the beggining of the map and don't care about enything else, pls, they are nerfing frames good at 360 strong damage, i loved Mesa cuz of the peacemaker now i bearly pick her, and that skill was also broken ? or OP ? don't think so , she was perfect for defences and weak for normal missions cuz of stacionary peacmaker, so again pls share the build and will chcek it , if you don't want to do it pls don't even repeat for this thread cuz i can also say that i have a way to kill everything lvl 100+  with frames like hydroid # 4 or i have and op avalanche build, but it's my secret.

[EvilChaosKnight]

 

TL;DR Saryn was a pile of dirt with a cherry on top, now the cherry is gone and we all clearly see that she is pile of dirt

Her kit beforehand was already kinda bad. Now they removed her old primary function (quick nuke) in favor of... Actually, what type of frame is she now?

She's not a tank/melee brawler because her health and armor aren't good enough (Valkyr, Chroma and Atlas are better here)

She's not a good gun platform due to lack of damage mitigation or avoidance skills

She's not a clear nuker since the nerf, and to be fair you normally don't have time to set up the conditions in battle.

She's not a CC frame.

She's not a mobility frame (quite the opposite really).

She's not a support unit due to lack of... well... support capabilities? Spores could be one but they aren't that beneficial.

 

So... what is her role?

[RevenantPrime]

Very nice and thorough analysis, respect for the time & effort put into this.

 

The idea behind the Saryn rework obviously originated on paper and made by someoneone who hardly plays the game.

In theory all this setting up and chaining effects is interesting and most certainly more engaging than a 4 spam... However in practice the only time you'll ever get to pull it off is when you're playing solo because you'll have 3 teammates killing everything around you.

 

By the time you get done setting up your wombo combo the rest of your team will be impatiently waiting at the next elevator / the extraction point.

Edited November 6, 2015 by RevenantPrime

[Hecko]

This is not synergy. This is dependency.

ALLELUJA MA BROTHER, i'm saying this from yesterday!!
 

 

they just made a simple thing, very very complicated. Adam and whatelse is running this boat, what the frack are you doing ? Do your developers meeting need a gatorade ?

 

Edited November 6, 2015 by Hecko

[--Sensei--]

Look at all these salty ppl crying about "biased math"

 

Math can't be biased, numbers have no feelings, they dont lie, they just tell the truth, that's all they do. Don't blame math, you only have yourselves to blame.

[Hecko]

This is because miasma literally had no mallus when using negative duration. Surprise surpise, it made it absolutely broken damage wise. In fact, it was literally advantegoius to reduce your duration down to its bare minimum, since past a certain threshold, it actually increased your damage.

In other words, you've been using a bugged abillity from the start as a comparison, what do you expect?

What the hell are you talking about ?

 

Not EVERY warframe have to suffer a malus good god.

Bugged ability ? whattafrack they implemented the same thing on trinity but nobody is complaining about it.

 

Negative duration increased the DPS not the DAMAGE OUTPUT, they are different things, read it.

Molt and miasma had a great synergy when you running solo, but not anymore solo with my saryn cause I aint enough energy and range for molt.

That nerf should have come for just her 1 and her 3, and maybe they could add a small cooldown of 2-4 seconds if that nuke bothered you so much.

Bring fact or dont speak please.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Hecko

[Drinniol]

What the hell are you talking about ?

 

Not EVERY warframe have to suffer a malus good god.

Bugged ability ? whattafrack they implemented the same thing on trinity but nobody is complaining about it.

 

Negative duration increased the DPS not the DAMAGE OUTPUT, they are different things, read it.

Molt and miasma had a great synergy when you running solo, but not anymore solo with my saryn cause I aint enough energy and range for molt.

That nerf should have come for just her 1 and her 3, and maybe they could add a small cooldown of 2-4 seconds if that nuke bothered you so much.

Bring fact or dont speak please.

Negative duration did actually increase your damage past a certain point though.  This is because of the instantaneous "bonus" tick when you cast.

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/File:Miasma_Total_Damage.jpg

 

As you can see, damage is flat with duration right up until you get into that really low duration range.

[bl4ckhunter]

miasma was nerfed simply becouse it now requires over double the energy it did before to deal similiar damage and that is undeniable and besides the dmagae comparation in the op  , and in the meanwhile let's not forget that toxic lash is still useless..... with no cc, no defense buff, no invisibility and not even an attack speed boost (you'd need it if you don't want to die before the melee animation finishes on many melee weapons) going melee is utterly, absolutely suicidical.

you can block, you could say... no you can't even if we forget the 90% blocking cap (and heavy weapons block 85% damage, why even bother?) and the fact that it only protencts you from the front the moment you attack you lose the blocking damage reduction, couple it with the fact that melee animation-locks you and you have no defences besides high health which doesn't really work well without the armor that saryn doesn't have past lvl 20 anyways...

all in all with the rework they nerfed the only useful ability saryn had and gave her a worse version of red veil's aoe blast on it's 1.... and i thought that saryn was bad before, well if viral would stack she would have her niche but things being as they are she's even more thrash than she was

Edited November 6, 2015 by bl4ckhunter

[DrBorris]

Anyone ever come to think Miasma may have been a bit too powerful pre-rework?

[Gurpgork]

Anyone ever come to think Miasma may have been a bit too powerful pre-rework?

Compared to stuff like Antimatter Drop, Maim, Exalted Blade, ect., not really.

Honestly, I think that if they want you to need to spread around viral/toxin to get even good damage, then the multiplier should be much, much higher than 100%. If you take the time to get both, Miasma should be absolutely astronomical.

[bl4ckhunter]

Anyone ever come to think Miasma may have been a bit too powerful pre-rework?

well there wasn't anything usefull besides miasma and molt in saryn, and molt is nice but it's not THAT good, now the 1 is usefull and molt still there but that's it, there's utterly no reason to play mirage over let's say nova for example before it was the best nuker as far as nukers are useful in warframe(not much) at least but now? she's got nothing going for her imho

[Rankii]

You know what's sad? The devs aren't going to give this the time of day because it'd require them admitting they were wrong. The feedback section might as well be renamed to the "Praise the devs, regardless of quality" section.

 

Anyone ever come to think Miasma may have been a bit too powerful pre-rework?

Have you ever taken saryn past a tower2 run? Yeah good luck with that miasma 20+ minutes into a survival run.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Rankii