De I Implore You To Read This! Ne Zha Concerns And Discussion.

[tripletriple]

Disclaimer: Do not come in here and state the obvious and say that he has not been released yet. Just because he has not been released doesn't mean we cannot speculate or make educated guesses based on the 2 year experience some of us have with the game. We know what his skills do and we have seen them in action via live stream. Thank you. 

 

To start this off I would like to make a statement. I have never been excited for a warframe. I am not excited for update 18. Only because I know Ne Zha won't be in it. Last week something special happened. I got hyped. That hasn't happened since update 10.

 

Needless to say I am super excited to play Ne Zha and the last thing I want is for him to be released in the same state that Atlas got launched as. A warframe that needed an extensive list of fixes and tweaks before he was playable. Do not make these ideas augments DE. Please at least forward these to the devs!

 

After reading some community thoughts about him I could not help but think about his viability. Some common concerns that were brought up were legitimate concerns. Questions like will he scale well? Will Ne Zha bring anything new to warframe? Will his abilities damage and defenses scale? What will he bring to a team?

 

Lets analyse his skill set.

 

Fire Walker is an interesting skill. It provides damage, movement speed for Ne Zha only and a proc cleaner for your team. The only thing that will scale is the speed buff and proc cleaner.

 

Are these going to be practical? Lets take a defense mission. The damage has fallen off already at high levels and in order to cleanse your team you have to drain your energy and run in circles around them. Hardly worth anything. Lets give it something new.

 

Solutions: Lets expand on the curing and healing since it's in his lore. These don't necessarily have to all go into the skill but rather can just choose one.

 

1. Team Mates on the fire will receive over health.

2. Increase the explosion range of his fire to apply the fire proc.

3.  All allies around him are instant cleansed.

 

This will give his first skill some scaling.

 

Blazing Chakram is great in that people can keep shooting enemies to heal.  My only suggestion is to make it scale better give enemies hit by it a small 1 second stun. 

 

Warding Halo is where things can get fun. This ability does not scale well at all. Rhino is proof of this. While Ne zha is not meant to tank he has terrible health stats and this skill is not enough in higher levels. This is the opportunity to introduce something unique and fresh.

 

1. Allies around Ne Zha will also get a ring and will have a 20 % chance to multi shot on any ability or weapon.

2. Abilities used have a 30 % chance to return the energy used.

3.  Allies with the ring may absorb and negate damage completely 50 % chance.

 

Divine Spears needs to lose the duration and just have toggle. It should also work on anyone who enters the area.

 

Please DE don't release this warframe without taking into account the opening questions because at this point he brings nothing new. 

 

Feel free to give your own suggestions!

Edited November 16, 2015 by tripletriple

[Athros]

I wouldn't tried to discuss what haven't been released here, on the Global version, even though it's already released/previewed on Chinese version, since it still have a chance to be changed by DE's decision. Still, those are interesting ideas.

 

Is there a thread/link where I can see all the infos related to NeZha, or even all the Chinese contents from CN WF?

Edited November 16, 2015 by Athros

[tripletriple]

For those interested. 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2015 by [DE]Danielle
Removed hidden post

[Vargras]

For Firewalker:

 

1. Healing-over-time for allies standing in the fire will likely be an augment, not baseline. Can see it happening though.

2. Explosion radius already scales with range mods.

3. Insta-cleansing procs of nearby allies is immediately stronger than anything Oberon can put out (as his Renewal depends on allies being at full health to cleanse procs, and allies must stand in Hallowed Ground to cleanse procs), and stronger than any similar proc-cleaning augments, which also require allies to stand in a certain area to gain the benefit. With your proposed change, Nezha could just... move a bit, and accomplish the very same thing, with minimal fuss.

 

That's not the big issue though. It's your proposed changes to Warding Halo and Divine Spears.

 

For Warding Halo:

1. 20% chance to multishot on any ability or weapon use? With how multishot is already more or less required, this would be a huge issue and cause folks to outright demand Nezha for high-end content. It's a unique buff, sure, but it's also overwhelmingly strong.

2. 30% chance for abilities to essentially ignore energy use. Again, it's unique, but entirely too strong. The numbers you're picking aren't nearly as small as you think they might be.

3. 50% chance to negate any damage taken. This is so broken to the point of being comical. Almost half of all damage you take might as well have not existed -- you've immediately put Iron Skin in the trash bin, as well as Vex Armor (and any other armor tanks, for that matter), and several other defensive skills, like Snowglobe. And this is something you want baseline. You don't have to purposely mod for it, you just always have a 50% chance to take no damage at all.

 

For Divine Spears:

No duration, making it into a toggle, and having it affect any enemy that walks into range immediately puts almost every other CC skill out of business. There's no point at all in using Chaos, Avalanche, Stomp, Vortex, Tornados, or any number of other abilities when you could have a Nezha along that simply stacks range, duration, and efficiency, and locks down almost an entire map with minimal effort. You press the button, walk a bit to avoid the AFK timer, and your job is done.

 

Seriously. These aren't good ideas in the slightest.

[tripletriple]

 

For Firewalker:

1. Healing-over-time for allies standing in the fire will likely be an augment, not baseline. Can see it happening though.

2. Explosion radius already scales with range mods.

3. Insta-cleansing procs of nearby allies is immediately stronger than anything Oberon can put out (as his Renewal depends on allies being at full health to cleanse procs, and allies must stand in Hallowed Ground to cleanse procs), and stronger than any similar proc-cleaning augments, which also require allies to stand in a certain area to gain the benefit. With your proposed change, Nezha could just... move a bit, and accomplish the very same thing, with minimal fuss.

 

That's not the big issue though. It's your proposed changes to Warding Halo and Divine Spears.

 

For Warding Halo:

1. 20% chance to multishot on any ability or weapon use? With how multishot is already more or less required, this would be a huge issue and cause folks to outright demand Nezha for high-end content. It's a unique buff, sure, but it's also overwhelmingly strong.

2. 30% chance for abilities to essentially ignore energy use. Again, it's unique, but entirely too strong. The numbers you're picking aren't nearly as small as you think they might be.

3. 50% chance to negate any damage taken. This is so broken to the point of being comical. Almost half of all damage you take might as well have not existed -- you've immediately put Iron Skin in the trash bin, as well as Vex Armor (and any other armor tanks, for that matter), and several other defensive skills, like Snowglobe. And this is something you want baseline. You don't have to purposely mod for it, you just always have a 50% chance to take no damage at all.

 

For Divine Spears:

No duration, making it into a toggle, and having it affect any enemy that walks into range immediately puts almost every other CC skill out of business. There's no point at all in using Chaos, Avalanche, Stomp, Vortex, Tornados, or any number of other abilities when you could have a Nezha along that simply stacks range, duration, and efficiency, and locks down almost an entire map with minimal effort. You press the button, walk a bit to avoid the AFK timer, and your job is done.

 

Seriously. These aren't good ideas in the slightest.

1. It's a 100 % damage increase with a 30 % chance. Nova gives 100 % perm. Mirage and banshee even more. You really need to increase your warframe knowledge.

 

2. Do you know what a trinity is? Really? Limbo?

 

3. You can't protect the pod with it. You will be out bursted before you can tank anything at high levels. The fact that you think it would be better than vex armor or snow globe is what is comical.

 

For the ulti you can only lock down one part of the map how is that over powered when you can have a loki disarm the entire map, or a nyx get the entire map?

 

You are going to try harder.

 

 

[Casval_Rouge]

You know, you really can't judge something you haven't tried yet. 

 

However, given DE's track record, I'm more than wiling to bet Nezha will be severely underpowered.  I'm not going to give any logic to explain this, just call it a hunch.  But come on, after Nekros, Hydroid, Limbo, Zephyr, Equinox, Nekros, Oberon, and Atlas, all of these have received or require various buffs and reworks; I think it is very likely that I'll be right.  Of all the Warframes we have, only Nova, Nyx, Mirage, Mesa, and Vaubaun got released at a useful state.  Banshee. Sayrn, Chroma, Valkyr and Frost I would consider acceptable.  That's nearly half of the new Warframes that required significant buffs, and some still do!  

 

So I'm afraid I really don't have much confident in DE in terms of releasing decently balanced Warframes.  But all is fine, these things need to be tested.  What I do want to see is fast response, just like what they did with Atlas, then I'm happy.      

[DelialFallen]

For those interested. 

 

 

 

You know what is sad? The fact that someone can't give their opinion or have a discussion without someone jumping down their throat. Don't be a jerk. If you have nothing positive to say just don't say anything at all. Also it is confirmed to be released sometime this year. Watch the dev stream. 1 month and half max is long for you?

 

Edit: I didn't watch the video and am just going off of the ability descriptions.

 

I'm not sure any of these require immediate reparation.

 

Nezha appears to be built to be a furiously fast buffer/debuffer wherein maximizing potential requires to be constantly on the move and teleporting back to Blazing Chakram at regular intervals.

 

Firewalker will scale endlessly for its cleansing effect.  The damage will be negligible but will likely provide helpful Heat status effects when 4CP is employed.  The speed buff will allow Nezha to move in where he is needed to place a Chakram and then out with ease, returning when/if needed with just as much ease.

 

Blazing Chakram will be a good finisher (you will likely only detonate when enemies are near death so you can get the heal) that puts down a heal in an area you will protect (and stun) with Warding Halo.

 

Divine Spears will cause damage in a specific area, though it will not scale endlessly (and therefore has its use in endless situations limited in scope), it looks like it will be a solid damaging ability in non-endless content that, to me, feels like it will complement Nezha's toolkit well as a fast paced healer/buffer/debuffer.

 

What you are asking for feels to me like you do not want to play in what appears to be a fast paced situation with this frame and would rather the toolkit benefit a slower, passive playstyle while focusing enemies down from afar (like most frames already do).

 

I cannot agree with your suggestions and instead suggest you play Warframes built to support your playstyle.

Edited November 16, 2015 by DelialFallen

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Rhino is about to get a rework like frost did. Im sure this new frame will get similar enhancements. Besides, if u dont like the skill set(which i think looks awesome and i cant wait to play him)then just dont play him. Theres plenty of other frames to wet your proverbial whistle.

[Darkmatt3r]

can we just  please wait for the release it it's not much to ask ?

[TheFatDrake]

can we just  please wait for the release it it's not much to ask ?

 

Apparently not. We need to be critical of something before it even bothers existing.

[Buzkyl]

You sound like you have delusions of what warframe is. M prime exists, loki exists, trnity exists and guess what they are here to stay in there current iterations. Either you accept them as whats balanced in this game or you forever stay deluded thinking DE will change them. 

 

 

Balancing around frames which trivialise gameplay is a sure way to ensure a game isn't balance. Trinity, Loki and Nova are all examples of frames whose abiilities completely remove any form of difficulty whatsoever. Infinite energy, a over 50M map-wide slow and double damage and the ability to remove weapons from enemies permanently. All can be spammed, all have have no LoS. They are P42W in a different form.

 

Just because something broken exist, that does not mean it's healthy for the game, nor means the game should be centered towards it. By that logic we wouldn't have Parkour 2.0 as coptering exist.

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

 

Divine Spears needs to lose the duration and just have toggle. It should also work on anyone who enters the area.

Because locking down enemies for a few seconds isn't enough, lets lock down everyone in range, eternally.

 

Toggle? Yes. Duration removal? Certainly not.

[tripletriple]

Balancing around frames which trivialise gameplay is a sure way to ensure a game isn't balance. Trinity, Loki and Nova are all examples of frames whose abiilities completely remove any form of difficulty whatsoever. Infinite energy, a over 50M map-wide slow and double damage and the ability to remove weapons from enemies permanently. All can be spammed, all have have no LoS. They are P42W in a different form.

 

Just because something broken exist, that does not mean it's healthy for the game, nor means the game should be centered towards it. By that logic we wouldn't have Parkour 2.0 as coptering exist.

Whether or not they trivialize gameplay is up to debate. I find all three of those frames balanced. Powerful /= unbalanced. I've said it before and I'll say it again. These frames are in the game and are completely balanced. Having a frame with no unique ability while frames with abilities like these exist is only detrimental. 

 

That is why I proposed unique abilities while keeping with the abilities already in the game. I was hoping others would provide better ideas than mine. Thank you for replying maturely. 

Edited November 16, 2015 by tripletriple

[VampirePirate]

Disclaimer: Do not come in here and state the obvious and say that he has not been released yet. Just because he has not been released doesn't mean we cannot speculate or make educated guesses based on the 2 year experience some of us have with the game. We know what his skills do and we have seen them in action via live stream. Thank you. 

 

To start this off I would like to make a statement. I have never been excited for a warframe. I am not excited for update 18. Only because I know Ne Zha won't be in it. Last week something special happened. I got hyped. That hasn't happened since update 10.

 

Needless to say I am super excited to play Ne Zha and the last thing I want is for him to be released in the same state that Atlas got launched as. A warframe that needed an extensive list of fixes and tweaks before he was playable. Do not make these ideas augments DE. Please at least forward these to the devs!

 

After reading some community thoughts about him I could not help but think about his viability. Some common concerns that were brought up were legitimate concerns. Questions like will he scale well? Will Ne Zha bring anything new to warframe? Will his abilities damage and defenses scale? What will he bring to a team?

 

Lets analyse his skill set.

 

Fire Walker is an interesting skill. It provides damage, movement speed for Ne Zha only and a proc cleaner for your team. The only thing that will scale is the speed buff and proc cleaner.

 

Are these going to be practical? Lets take a defense mission. The damage has fallen off already at high levels and in order to cleanse your team you have to drain your energy and run in circles around them. Hardly worth anything. Lets give it something new.

 

Solutions: Lets expand on the curing and healing since it's in his lore. These don't necessarily have to all go into the skill but rather can just choose one.

 

1. Team Mates on the fire will receive over health.

2. Increase the explosion range of his fire to apply the fire proc.

3.  All allies around him are instant cleansed.

 

This will give his first skill some scaling.

 

Blazing Chakram is great in that people can keep shooting enemies to heal.  My only suggestion is to make it scale better give enemies hit by it a small 1 second stun. 

 

Warding Halo is where things can get fun. This ability does not scale well at all. Rhino is proof of this. While Ne zha is not meant to tank he has terrible health stats and this skill is not enough in higher levels. This is the opportunity to introduce something unique and fresh.

 

1. Allies around Ne Zha will also get a ring and will have a 20 % chance to multi shot on any ability or weapon.

2. Abilities used have a 30 % chance to return the energy used.

3.  Allies with the ring may absorb and negate damage completely 50 % chance.

 

Divine Spears needs to lose the duration and just have toggle. It should also work on anyone who enters the area.

 

Please DE don't release this warframe without taking into account the opening questions because at this point he brings nothing new. 

 

Feel free to give your own suggestions!

I believe this warframe you are worried about is already released.

 

Rhino's iron skin ability is being reworked.  If this new warframes ability is similar, it will be of the rework and not what it is now.

 

I really think that you are panicking for nothing, especially since you have not tried the new warframe yet.  Wait until it comes out first, test it, and then give feedback.  Making threads like this is just... well... stupid.  You really don't know what you are talking about right now.

 

Sorry if you feel insulted.  I think we all have concerns, but it makes no sense to voice them now when the waframe has not been tested.

[Eltoshan]

You sound like you have delusions of what warframe is. M prime exists, loki exists, trnity exists and guess what they are here to stay in there current iterations. Either you accept them as whats balanced in this game or you forever stay deluded thinking DE will change them. 

Citation needed.

[[DE]Danielle]

Unfortunately there's been a lot of attacks thrown about out the gate, and it doesn't seem like they are going to end any time soon. Several posts have been removed as a result.

 

If you are interested in opening a thread, please be prepared to receive negative feedback. If you feel attacked do not bite back. Either report these players to moderators or respond respectfully. 

 

Locking thread.