[Spoilers] The Truth Behind The Second Dream

[aoguro]

Evidently happened in the Rhino Prime Codex. It basically murdered everything.

 

that was moving orokin decadency ... maybe for going out of their influence, not a uncontrolled rhino prime ...

 

its not always anger when things get destroyed, a short impulse of clean clear protecting power can "show up" a bit strange ...

[UrielColtan]

Ghost in the shell refers to a mind going into an artificial body. Motoko is not inhabiting a body of its own consciouness, its a cybernetic body with no other consciouness but her own, still biological, brain. A warframe having its own consciouness, yet being manipulated by these children, is not the same situation, it is also undesireable to me.

Its just sugar coated slavery. They have to make the frames mentally invalid for it to even be somewhat presentable, thats why Eva's are wild or the Na'vi clones are literally braindead, without a host. Its so transparent in how pitiful a setup this is that I just don't care that their sentient vessel gets killed, its good that they get put out of its enslaved misery. So the Mirage or Limbo deaths lack any impact even if the frames are "alive".

Edited December 18, 2015 by UrielColtan

[(PSN)Ana_Nuann]

Can't claim facts without verification. Post screencaps please.

[SilentMobius]

A warframe having its own consciouness, yet being manipulated by these children, is not the same situation, it is also undesireable to me.

Its just sugar coated slavery. 

 

We don't agree on much but this I agree with. If DE decide to give the Warframes's any form of independent consciousness (Which I strongly doubt they will and even more strongly doubt that is the intention of the second dream ending) then they are going to have to address the issue of mental domination, slavery and physical violation. Which is way too sensitive for IMHO them to even consider approaching.

 

At the absolute maximum my guess is that DE may decide a Warframe may come with an echo of a personality that is completely incapable of anything other than acting as an argumentation to a true Sapient mind from a Tenno but nothing more than that.

 

So the Mirage or Limbo deaths lack any impact even if the frames are "alive".

 

I agree. The only "death" that matters is the Tenno. We need clarity on why these two Tenno died, and how, because the stories we know, now, say nothing about the Tenno.

[SilentMobius]

Near the end, it was the Frame that broke War on their own, not being controlled by the operator. 

 

To repeat, this is a player assumption. We have no reason at all to assume the Operator wasn't directing the Warframe at that moment. With difficulty, sure, but we have a documented evidence of it being possible in the RPC.

 

Everything about the rest of the Second Dream and every instance of Focus use indicates that the Warframe is empty and incapable of action without an operator. All of that need an explanation if we suddenly posit that Warframes can be independently motive.

[LynxZ4r0Z]

Tenno = human's that can tap into the warframes.

 

Warframe = different being that can control itself but will go breserk without the operator controling it.

 

atleast this is my speculation. (Due to the scene where the warframe breaks the war on its own without the operator controling it) or maybe the operator is tapped into the warframe at all times? highly possible? (The warframe started to move on its own to ''save?'' the operator (sense of danger) triggered the operator to control the warframe in some ohter way?)

[404Cygni]

I  must agree...Mobius, we do have evidence that Warframe have their own mind, namely Rhino Prime's lore.

[arch111]

To repeat, this is a player assumption. We have no reason at all to assume the Operator wasn't directing the Warframe at that moment. With difficulty, sure, but we have a documented evidence of it being possible in the RPC.

Everything about the rest of the Second Dream and every instance of Focus use indicates that the Warframe is empty and incapable of action without an operator. All of that need an explanation if we suddenly posit that Warframes can be independently motive.

I strongly dissagree.

To me, the whole dramatic story arc is precicly that; the surrogates connect back to the one in Rhino Prime Codex.

The warframe coming alive to protect its Tenno in the end.

Hunhow and stalkers reaction, the impossibility of this dead, lifeless thing acting as if it were indeed, alive.

Think of them as brother and sister, not master and slave.

[Burnthesteak87]

I strongly dissagree.

To me, the whole dramatic story arc is precicly that; the surrogates connect back to the one in Rhino Prime Codex.

The warframe coming alive to protect its Tenno in the end.

Hunhow and stalkers reaction, the impossibility of this dead, lifeless thing acting as if it were indeed, alive.

Think of them as brother and sister, not master and slave.

Exactly, Rhino Codex and also the ending cinematic itself are proofs.

 

However, this wasn't the end of Margulis. She would later return from the dead, as a Sentient. Natah was created and purposely patterned after Margulis, with the express intent of turning the children and warframes against their creators, and culminating in the destruction of the only beings that could ever truly harm the Sentients.

@Vargras or whoever has informations about it.

Since the question has been asked yet but nobody seemed to answer it:

How did you realize the link between Margulis and Natah?

Is there some documentation about it or is just speculation?

It really seem to be a too much forced interpretation...

How did Sentients lose the battle and then become aknowledged about Margulis existance?

Since TheSecondDream they seem to aknowledge the existance of the Reservoir, but what else?

How did a Sentient became so bound and interlaced to Tennos like this and other powerful Sentients like Unhow can't?

Edited December 18, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[SilentMobius]

I strongly dissagree.

To me, the whole dramatic story arc is precicly that; the surrogates connect back to the one in Rhino Prime Codex.

The warframe coming alive to protect its Tenno in the end.

Hunhow and stalkers reaction, the impossibility of this dead, lifeless thing acting as if it were indeed, alive.

Think of them as brother and sister, not master and slave.

 

Sorry, I don't think DE can pull that off, nor do I think they would touch it with a bargepole.

 

Maybe if it was only ever one Tenno to a Warframe, maybe If the Warframes were created in the distant past and only passed down it would work, not built-on-demand in the foundry. Maybe you could make it look like a buddy-movie scenario.

 

But a single Tenno, building Warframes from blueprints, tens of them, just in storage until needed then dominated into combat. That is baaaaad moral place to be, custom-designed sapient beings, many of them, as corpse-slaves, expected to give up their physical autonomy at the drop of a hat.

 

No reading of that story can avoid looking really rapey. And I don't use that term lightly.

Edited December 19, 2015 by SilentMobius

[Burnthesteak87]

Whaat?
You're making extreme assuptions and bringing the argument into your own direction while taking conclusions about them.
 

[The_Unlife]

I personally hope that the Warframes are just an organic construct, not a sapient lifeform itself or as has been discussed this trails into a distasteful area. The Warframe should perhaps hold "echoes" of its operators power held by the Constructs organic neurons, but this is not a living creature (think like Guyver unit when its host's brain is partially destroyed, it has a form of self defence to prevent the host from dying) or perhaps this is the case but wasnt always so hence why Mirage was killed when her/his frame was destroyed.

Edited December 19, 2015 by The_Unlife

[Toppien]

so, waframes are rejected tenno while the remaining tenno are controlling the twisted tenno...

 

huh...

 

so it is true that tenno are all necromancers XD

Edited December 19, 2015 by Toppien

[(PSN)federally]

I think the Rhino Prime Codex is being looked at from an incorrect perspective.

Many seem to think it's evidence of a Warframe moving on it's own, however when the crazed Rhino prototype gets to Davis and his partner isn't it mentioned that the room they are hiding in has stasis pods with Zariman children in them?

Maybe instead what the RPC describes is the results of the first successful connection between Tenno and Warframe. At which point the Tenno used the Warframe to act out it's anger or attempt to break them self out of the stasis pod.

Either way I don't think RPC is an example of a Warframe moving on it's own.

[arch111]

Sorry, I don't think DE can pull that off, nor do I think they would touch it with a bargepole.

Maybe if it was only ever one Tenno to a Warframe, maybe If the Warframes were created in the distant past and only passed down it would work, not built-on-demand in the foundry. Maybe you could make it look like a buddy-movie scenario.

But a single Tenno, building Warframes from blueprints, tens of them, just in storage until needed then dominated into combat. That is baaaaad moral place to be, custom-designed sapient beings, many of them, as corpse-slaves, expected to give up their physical autonomy at the drop of a hat.

No reading of that story can avoid looking really rapey. And I don't use that term lightly.

So what you are basically saying is that the Orokin took away these clones free will, making them vessels for the Tenno and instruments of war only.

That is a grim reality.

I would prefer that the Transferrance creates a symbiosis of the two, hence why warframes have naturlal stances and animations. Why they have different moods and styles.

Considering the Orokin made slaves of everyone I know it is likely they did this.

But the ending of SD leaves me wondering still.

[SilentMobius]

So what you are basically saying is that the Orokin took away these clones free will, making them vessels for the Tenno and instruments of war only.

That is a grim reality.

I would prefer that the Transferrance creates a symbiosis of the two, hence why warframes have naturlal stances and animations. Why they have different moods and styles.

Considering the Orokin made slaves of everyone I know it is likely they did this.

But the ending of SD leaves me wondering still.

No I'm saying that out-of-game DE will not approach any plotline that puts the player character in the moral position of a slavemaster/rapist because it's a toxic story and will completely ruin the ambience of their game.

And hence if DE is unlikely to do that out-of-game then your in-game assumptions are unlikely to be correct.

Warframes can have echoes of a personality if DE want, sure. Just not a mind of their own, not be motive nor sapient, because there be dragons in that plotline.

Edited December 19, 2015 by SilentMobius

[(PSN)federally]

No I'm saying that out-of-game DE will not approach any plotline that puts the player character in the moral position of a slavemaster/rapist because it's a toxic story and will completely ruin the ambience of their game.

And hence if DE is unlikely to do that out-of-game then your in-game assumptions are unlikely to be incorrect.

Warframes can have echoes of a personality of DE want, sure. Just not a mind of their own, not be motive nor sapient, because there be dragons in that plotline.

I fully agree.

If the Warframe's are ever shown to have any kind of sentience DE will have to be careful to show the relationship between Tenno and Warframe as symbiotic.

It's the only way to avoid the danger you describe

[SilentMobius]

I fully agree.

If the Warframe's are ever shown to have any kind of sentience DE will have to be careful to show the relationship between Tenno and Warframe as symbiotic.

It's the only way to avoid the danger you describe

 

Symbiosis would possibly work for one-warframe-per-tenno but do you think they could pull off telling us that we can:

 

1. Build a Warframe from parts

2. Keep it on ice until the moment we need it to fight

3. Take physical control of it during the fight, risking only the physicality of the sapient Warframe

 

Then repeat that 20+ time for all the Warframes then replace some of them with Primes. You can't push that as symbioses, It's parasitism, with sapient creatures it's even worse.

 

Unless the Warframes are non-sapient, non-sentient then we are in a whole mess plot-wise.

Edited December 19, 2015 by SilentMobius

[(PSN)federally]

Symbiosis would possibly work for one-warframe-per-tenno but do you think they could pull off telling us that we can:

1. Build a Warframe from parts

2. Keep it on ice until the moment we need it to fight

3. Take physical control of it during the fight, risking only the physicality of the sapient Warframe

Then repeat that 20+ time for all the Warframes then replace some of them with Primes. You can't push that as symbioses, It's parasitism, with sapient creatures it's even worse.

Unless the Warframes are non-sapient, non-sentient then we are in a whole mess plot-wise.

Well if the Warframe's are just totally empty vessels a few problems are created.

Namely Valkyr, Limbo, Mirage and Mag.

How does Alad V torture an empty shell? Why is an empty shell mad about being tortured?

How do Mirage and Limbo die if they are piloting empty shells remotely?

Why is there a promotion video of a squad of Warframes rescuing Mag from Alad V if it's just a disposable empty shell?

I think it leaves us with three possibilities.

The Warframe has some sentience.

The Tenno and the Warframe link is more then just remote control, it could be such a deep connection as to have feedback. Where the Tenno suffers along with the Warframe. However this really doesn't go well with the first cut scene of the Second Dream.

Or there used to be Warframe's directly piloted by Tenno inside them.

[(PSN)SofeSNBR]

Since fate of ballas and the origin of stalker are mystery.... can i say Ballas=Stalker. Think about it, hunhow constantly kept saying to "shadow" how tennos are shadow's enemies, how tennos ruined shadow, destroyed shadow.

 

Now If ex lotus were his lover, lover who end up loosing her life because her care for children, the tenno. That would be life destroying thing for someone, big enough for someone grow deep hatred towards someone. Hatred so big, that someone would go extreme measures to get his revenge, in this case measures to allow oneself become stalker or shadow as he is referred during the quest.

Edited December 19, 2015 by (PS4)SofeSNBR

[SilentMobius]

Well if the Warframe's are just totally empty vessels a few problems are created.

Namely Valkyr, Limbo, Mirage and Mag.

How does Alad V torture an empty shell? Why is an empty shell mad about being tortured?

How do Mirage and Limbo die if they are piloting empty shells remotely?

Why is there a promotion video of a squad of Warframes rescuing Mag from Alad V if it's just a disposable empty shell?

I think it leaves us with three possibilities.

The Warframe has some sentience.

The Tenno and the Warframe link is more then just remote control, it could be such a deep connection as to have feedback. Where the Tenno suffers along with the Warframe. However this really doesn't go well with the first cut scene of the Second Dream.

Or there used to be Warframe's directly piloted by Tenno inside them.

 

I think those mission have even bigger problems if we're supposed to accept that transposition of player emotional investiture from the Tenno to a Warframe. Those missions will never work from a story perspective without threat to the controlling Tenno. Sapient Warframes just create more problems, they don't solve any.

 

There are a number of possible explanations, unfortunately we need to wait for all the console-Tenno to have done the Second Dream before DE will start answering questions. But I don't see sapient Warframes on the cards even then.

[Burnthesteak87]

Since fate of ballas and the origin of stalker are mystery.... can i say Ballas=Stalker. Think about it, hunhow constantly kept saying to "shadow" how tennos are shadow's enemies, how tennos ruined shadow, destroyed shadow.

 

Now If ex lotus were his lover, lover who end up loosing her life because her care for children, the tenno. That would be life destroying thing for someone, big enough for someone grow deep hatred towards someone. Hatred so big, that someone would go extreme measures to get his revenge, in this case measures to allow oneself become stalker or shadow as he is referred during the quest.

Who said Lotus is Margulis, and where's the documentation stating so?

 

[Pavelord]

Well if the Warframe's are just totally empty vessels a few problems are created.

Namely Valkyr, Limbo, Mirage and Mag.

How does Alad V torture an empty shell? Why is an empty shell mad about being tortured?

How do Mirage and Limbo die if they are piloting empty shells remotely?

Why is there a promotion video of a squad of Warframes rescuing Mag from Alad V if it's just a disposable empty shell?

I think it leaves us with three possibilities.

The Warframe has some sentience.

The Tenno and the Warframe link is more then just remote control, it could be such a deep connection as to have feedback. Where the Tenno suffers along with the Warframe. However this really doesn't go well with the first cut scene of the Second Dream.

Or there used to be Warframe's directly piloted by Tenno inside them.

Having a surrogate, means the have a substitute body, one that would let them carry on with their lives, the line in the quest mentions "as the tenno grew (older, i believe it means this)", the tenno inhabit their surrogates and live well into their adulthoods, as they learn more and developed their culture and participated in the war.

 

And if the videos showed something, is that they can be capture, meaning they can only change bodies in the arsenal, so none of those frames you mentioned were empty at the moment of their deaths, they may not die, but imagine the psychologic torture they had to endure.

 

The way I see it, we have a organic surrogate that may have technocyte components, that wears a warframe armor suit, that is inhabited by a tenno dream. I don't really see the posibility of sentience in the suits, that would mean, in the arsenal you are watching living armor modeling for you to choose as if from a wardrobe.

 

An I mentioned this in other thread, the warframes in the tenno lab don't move, those don't have idles, and remember the Margulis implant as the possible device that "prevents the voices from taking over", this thing here would prevent infested and argueably any other mind from taking over the frame.

[(PSN)SofeSNBR]

Who said Lotus is Margulis, and where's the documentation stating so?

 

She was created to resemble margulis, but stalker's beef is not with lotus, but with the tenno. And tenno are reason why margulis was executed.

[(PSN)federally]

Having a surrogate, means the have a substitute body, one that would let them carry on with their lives, the line in the quest mentions "as the tenno grew (older, i believe it means this)", the tenno inhabit their surrogates and live well into their adulthoods, as they learn more and developed their culture and participated in the war.

And if the videos showed something, is that they can be capture, meaning they can only change bodies in the arsenal, so none of those frames you mentioned were empty at the moment of their deaths, they may not die, but imagine the psychologic torture they had to endure.

The way I see it, we have a organic surrogate that may have technocyte components, that wears a warframe armor suit, that is inhabited by a tenno dream. I don't really see the posibility of sentience in the suits, that would mean, in the arsenal you are watching living armor modeling for you to choose as if from a wardrobe.

An I mentioned this in other thread, the warframes in the tenno lab don't move, those don't have idles, and remember the Margulis implant as the possible device that "prevents the voices from taking over", this thing here would prevent infested and argueably any other mind from taking over the frame.

Maybe Mirage, Limbo and Valkyr's Tenno didn't know their nature and had no way to escape the Warframe.

Maybe psychologically they thought they were those frames so they experienced what the frames went through as if it was happening to them.

Kind of like the way the Matrix explained how people could die in the Matrix even though it wasn't real.

This idea allows for the old lore to be good, accurate and still compelling with emotional triggers and allows our Tenno to switch Warframe and escape death because they know the truth.