Stealth Got Stealth Nerfed

[Scytze]

Guess i have to hope for survival sortie and solo it with War and valkyr.

[Brahkest]

I like the "fix" they applied here since it makes sense. Better to kill enemies from behind so they don't see you doing it outright. But...

 

From a lot of testing, it seems kinda random at best. I've been able to kill an enemy several meters behind another and get alerted even though I had hush/hushed invisibility. Sometimes I ended up killing an enemy right next to another and got no alert whatsoever.

 

It's becoming difficult to assume how far I should let enemies wander before I kill them before someone's spidey senses tingle and they start to freak out. It's also a question if I should let them wander at all since you can sometimes kill a group without problem but some groups get alerted immediately.

 

I'm also confused how punchthrough plays into it. I tested a bit with loki and a shotgun and the punchthrough of body parts and bullets also seems wonky. Again, mauling through entire groups seems to end up with random periods of alertness or not. I don't care much for the focus issue at hand since I don't farm it but having stealth act even weirder than usual is pretty disheartening.

[UNO168]

nerf saryn and  DE release new skin for saryn

nerf steath and release new skin for loki

 

okay I get it now.

 

basically just don't purchase any new skin.

 

too bad I already bought that loki skin which looks like something from villain of dragon ball.

Edited December 17, 2015 by UNO168

[Gurbak]

Well focus just became uninteresting for me, I'm not doing Draco for focus and instead of making stealth impossible just tune down the xp multiplier.. I mean who the hell came up with the idea of making stealth literally impossible. This isn't Splinter Cell, I can't hide bodies or hang from cielings.

 

Sometimes DE really behaves stupid and it feels like they don't even think about the changes they do, they just change stuff and then watch evverything burn then expects us to forgive them when they "fix" it.

[3lackrose]

Change how affinity gain works or don't mind farming it and this suddendly becomes a good change.

[DSpite]

OK, so, some actual testing.

 

#SMK (Stealth Multiplier Kill) - you get a text line saying +100%, +200% etc

 

Limbo, Snipetron and Sonicor, both Hushed, Shade Sentinel. Jupiter Extermination on Corpus.

 

* Jumped in the middle of things, went into Rift and annoyed them all, then ran off and hid a tile over.

* Did a bunch of long range (60m-80m) shots into groups that could see each other, and some shorter tests at the 30m mark as well.

* Let units do a "partial spotting" where they would be walking towards me, and the very second they see me I'd pop them before they started shooting.

* Looked through the Codex scanner a lot to get line of sight and to get an idea what units where up to.

 

At medium to long ranges (more then 30m) most units would freeze for a second, basically go "oh look Fred is dead", then carry on as usual. Next shot into the next one still had a SMK bonus. The closest shot I got away with was at 30m, not got spotted by a unit next to it. A shot at 15m to one unit looking directly at another unit made the second one spin 90 degrees to face me and shoot me.

 

If you annoy a bunch of units, then move far away, they do NOT always set of alarms. A pause of around 10-20 seconds later still allows SMK. They can even be crouching down behind cover or looking around a corner, and you can still pop them one by one only 3m away from each other and get SMK. Have had cases this does not happen, but I can't test as to why.

 

Resetting Alarms, waiting 10-20 seconds and going hunting again gets SMK, but not always.

 

Came off an elevator with about 6 units just walking around. Shot them in front of each other very fast, got SMK on all of them. Even one that was about 15 meters away and walking towards all of this did not go into alert, I actually watch it creep up as I had to reload then shot it. Can't remember if I actually got a SMK on that one.

 

Switched to Sonicor and walked around for a mission. Much harder to test because of short range, but I got one very clean test at least. Two units coming around a corner, I blew one clean off the ramp, the other kept walking un-alerted, popped that one too, both SMK. I did one complete run with a duration Loki and Sonicor only, and mixed results all the way. One unit would get an SMK, then I'd run down and open two door to get to another unit, shoot it, and no bonus. Ran back three tiles to kill another, got an SMK .. so not sure whats happening there.

 

There was always cases where I was mixing SMK with normal kills, but I can't say why. Generally, the AI seems as stupid as ever. Had one case where 5 units "camped" on the other side of a door, so I shot through and killed 2 of them (kept popping shots) the first kill was SMK, the second was not. I opened the door from one side, there was two crouched behind a railing, popped each one but not SMK, then the last was doing that peek-around corner thing that they do, so I went to sneak up to shoot it, and my Shade invis kicked in, so instead, I creeped up slowly and the actual "stealth kill" press button came up and I did that throat cut move with a Glaive. As you can see, it's a bit all over the place at times.

 

Other then what seems to be a slightly more alert AI, it's pretty much the same. I can see how it would screw up constant SMK runs doing purely melee short range attacks, but come on, that should have never have been possible.

 

If anything, "power farming Focus" got nerfed.

Edited December 17, 2015 by DSpite

[Judgebanks]

This has existed before, which leads a smart person to believe that the previous iteration was an oversight until made glaringly obvious by farmers.

[ShikiRen]

It's weird though, it might be bugged for me but using a Tonkor with hush and firestorm still works as usual. One shot, all enemies die at the same time, 500% bonus and others not in explosion range don't get alerted/semialerted as long as i don't run into them. Huh. I'll try restarting the game and see if it changes.

Edited December 17, 2015 by ShikiRen

[CrazyCatLad]

Uhhh just play the game normally instead of grinding for Focus points...

[fatpig84]

Uhhh just play the game normally instead of grinding for Focus points...

 

Except if you are a vet, you don't have the time to play all through that.

[CrazyCatLad]

Except if you are a vet, you don't have the time to play all through that.

I think that should read "Except if you are employed, a student or a parent..."

 

I'm almost a 3 year vet to this game and work full time.  I don't want to max out Focus as quick as possible because A. Wouldn't you get worn out grinding stealth kills or Draco and B. Then what? People will just whine that Focus went too fast after all of that waiting.

 

I'm worn out stealthing through Spy runs for Ivara.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Lanieu

[CrazyCatLad]

With the hushed Tonkor/ stealth technique getting to the focus cap is not so grindy at all. Which is why many preferred it to avoid the actual unfair Draco -exp steal grind.

Ha... which then begs the question...how can an explosion be silent?  ;)

[akira_him]

Ha... which then begs the question...how can an explosion be silent?  ;)

Orokin!

[Tsukinoki]

Wut? Behind their back, really?!!!!

 

Hmmm... that's not so good then...

 

Question to all of you : do you mean they become alerted or semi-alerted? The difference is important.

First they become alerted enough to break stealth kills.

I have also had enemies with a wall/door between them get "alerted" when I killed their friends.

I was doing an exterminate run and came to a friendship door.  I saw that there were red dots on the other side of the door as well as one enemy on my side near the door.

I killed the enemy on my side and opened the door.

First enemy I killed on the other side broke the stealth chain because he somehow became "alerted" to me killing his friend through a solid metal door.

Somehow.

Their detection isn't LoS like it should be.

Its a rough area 4-8 meters around them where they instantly detect any enemy deaths and break your stealth chain, even if said death occurred behind obstacles, above their head in a vent, or behind a wall with a closed door.

And its hardly a consistent area.

I've killed enemies that were touching before at long range and gotten the stealth bonus some of the time.

Other times it breaks the stealth bonus.

Same thing for melee.

 

Actually, stealth missions broke on the U18 launch. Previously if an enemy saw a unit die in front of them, they would no longer qualify for stealth multipliers; which, broke on U18 as they stopped caring that their allies died for no good reason in front of their eyes.

Except that now instead of requiring LoS to the enemy that was killed they have an awareness radius around them that can somehow tell them "Oh my friend died on the other side of this closed and locked door!" and ruin your stealth chain with no warning, rhyme or reason.

If it was a consistant "if the enemies see their friends die then they will break the stealth chain" that would be one thing.

But when you can't even come up behind a line of enemies and kill them back to front with plenty of space between each person without alerting everyone else, or can't even kill them in an adjacent room that is something completely different that needs to be fixed.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Tsukinoki

[xethier]

Consistency is key, and there isn't any...

 

LOS should be required for semi-alerted status. (so killing back to front should work)

 

Mobs tend to spawn in clumps and follow similar patrol routes. Making kill streaks almost impossible with the current system. (unless you just kill one and move on -- which is frustrating)

[Odik]

Wao ,such BS change . You cant recieve focus from allies kills (because they dont know how fix it)  but they know how to nerf stealth to prevent people from getting thier cap without spending whole day on most famous place in game with frame focused on killing whole lvl with 1 button.  Bravo.

[Rivy]

It doesn't make sense that they notice even if you are behind them.

 

I feel this change should have happened along with others that made stealth more rewarding, because as of now this is nothing but a nerf. If a rework is going to happen make it all happen at the same time, don't gimp a playstyle "in the meantime" :(

[xethier]

It doesn't make sense that they notice even if you are behind them.

 

I feel this change should have happened along with others that made stealth more rewarding, because as of now this is nothing but a nerf. If a rework is going to happen make it all happen at the same time, don't gimp a playstyle "in the meantime" :(

 ^^ this.

[Bobtm]

The idea behind this change, to improve overall enemy AI / reactivity isn't a bad one at all.  Rather it's a good idea, but currently enemies are borderline omnipotent in random bursts to the point where the system doesn't even slightly work.

 

Prior to the whole Focus farm, stealth focused play was one of the least rewarding or incentivized ways to accomplish any mission or task.  Then with U18 along with Ivara it became intriguing (Lure Arrow, the first actual distraction) and genuinely rewarding for the first time.  Now mind you I'm talking about the slightly slower more methodical route of taking one's time and not the rush to the end and clean up issue.  Doing a mission stealthily finally felt like it had some form of purpose, and now it got tossed into the gutter.

 

After reading the patch note on the change initially I thought, hey, this will make Lure Arrow a valuable tool.  Well I was woefully mistaken since Ivara is overall a very poor stealth frame now due to the way enemy awareness now works (read; it doesn't).  Find a hidden little spot, drop a lure arrow, once foes are near drop a few more to drag enemies along in a way that would/should be conductive to your stealth kills.  Erase the farthest one at the rear with a fully silenced attack and the others (with their backs turned) magically know the ally is gone.  A slow timed setup, a good minute or so of patience, literally nothing to show for it in terms of actual relevance.

 

So at another point I decided to really see how far this would go, so I Lure arrowed a group of foes till their collective backs were turned.  Then I dropped a Sleep arrow onto the crowd, readied up an Artemis charged shot, and loosed it into the crowd.  The results were genuinely irksome, legitimately eye-roll inducing.  The stealth multiplier notification popped up for a brief instant when the arrow cluster began to strike the sleeping foes.  Then it immediately vanished, because apparently the sleeping enemies have total awareness of their own or their allies' demise.

 

That was the first and only time I've ever just hit escape and aborted mission due to pure irritation.  I can understand that the changes were made to nip the eploit-y side of farming by dashing to the end to mop up.  But these same changes outright curb stomp actual metered and thoughtful stealthy play.  Currently stealth is in its most broken state it's ever been in, within Warframe.  These changes coming in before proper enemy AI responsiveness outright kneecapped stealth from a fluidity/reliability standpoint.

 

The worst part of all this, I'm still going to slog my way through this non-reliable stealth and barely rewarding type play because I have and always will genuinely despise the idea of going the nuke-it-all route.  So if I hope to have any chance of focus gains, this very broken form of stealth is my only option.

[Qynchou]

Alright, looks like Im giving up farming it legit and trying to enjoy it.

 

You done diddly did it DE, draco here I come.

[xethier]

-snip for brevity-

 

You hit on a good point in here, that with patience you can move the mobs around, set yourself up for a kill shot and.... get screwed by omnipotent AI awareness. However, even if AI awareness works properly, the kill streak timer limits how much you can setup. 30 seconds is FAR too short, doubly so with the random Alert status mobs go into.

 

Warframe's stealth mechanics are currently schizophrenic. Kill quickly (30 second timer) but the semi-alerted mob status lasts longer than that. So move around like a spastic teenager at a rave to keep the kill counter going... the entire steaming pile of <censored> system just feels terrible in it's current iteration.

 

Edit:

 

Things I'd like to see:

 

1) A "startled" state, that lasts 1-3 seconds where a mob has discovered something that will (once he's figured it out) cause him to go into a semi-alert state. (a grace period for taking down a group with a single shot or a rapid succession of them)

 

2) An indicator that will allow players to know what state a mob is actually in at the moment.

 

3) A standardized radius / viewing angle / distance for noticing anything that would "startle" the mob. (some mobs might be better than others)

 

4) possibly a mod for showing things like viewing angle / radius and/or alert status.

Edited December 17, 2015 by xethier

[Necrius]

Off-topic a bit - can you explain me how draco farming works? It's just an interception mission, why it's an ultimate farmfest?

[Odik]

Off-topic a bit - can you explain me how draco farming works? It's just an interception mission, why it's an ultimate farmfest?

Points are close, lots of mobs, you running around like headless chicken and burn everything to ashes with ember or any other 1 button frame and get lots of exp ?

[Flibbertigibbety]

I've run several exterminate missions since this "feature" has been put back into play, and will say that it's NOT the same. Being alerted is NOT LOS.... I killed an enemy with another enemy standing about 2 enemy widths away from them and facing the opposite direction, and they got "spooked". Things like this have happened multiple times, and it makes stealth gameplay for loki almost impossible... and stealth for other warframes completely impossible.

[Bobtm]

You hit on a good point in here, that with patience you can move the mobs around, set yourself up for a kill shot and.... get screwed by omnipotent AI awareness. However, even if AI awareness works properly, the kill streak timer limits how much you can setup. 30 seconds is FAR too short, doubly so with the random Alert status mobs go into.

 

Warframe's stealth mechanics are currently schizophrenic. Kill quickly (30 second timer) but the semi-alerted mob status lasts longer than that. So move around like a spastic teenager at a rave to keep the kill counter going... the entire steaming pile of <censored> system just feels terrible in it's current iteration.

 

Indeed, the current situation is an odd kettle of fish to say the least, pretty sure there's a wrench and two bananas in that same kettle too.

 

Anyways I was doing a little more testing for curiosity's sake on the stealth front and (almost humorously) Ivara is borderline useless when it comes to a stealth run now if you actually want gains from it.  Loki however is a literal god of stealth runs still because Switch Teleport has absolute usability with the current system, while neither Sleep or Lure arrow are even usable currently with regards to stealth.

 

By making use of Loki's 3 I was able to very swiftly separate foes and in an ironic twist of fate I could Punch Through Rubico the center of a crowd (since it's hitscan it gets the kills simultaneously and doesn't break the counter.  Then I could use ST to move the outlying foes who absolutely saw the kill, which coincidentally reset their awareness state to unaware and allowed me to stealth kill them.  It was a lot of worrying about angles here and there but doing this method was infinitely faster than trying anything interesting with Ivara at all.

 

So as it stands, Loki is hands down the undeniably best and effectively only option for a proper/reliable stealth run with the current mechanics.  On the upside I can still net Focus without resorting to Draco.  On the downside, nothing about randomly teleporting enemies across the map to blast them with the Rubico (Hushed Invis, because Loki has all the tools) feels stealthy.

 

Edit;  Because there's always a typo.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Bobtm