Is The Hate For Wukong & Nezha Biased/unjustified ? (Discussion)

[Moghul]

Wukong is boring.

Nezha is fun but needs tweaks to cast times and his ultimate.

Idgaf that they're chinese.

[(XBOX)Skode]

People hatted on them BEFORE trying them... then hated on DE as they struggled to ACQUIRE them = warframe forums in a nut shell.

 

Theyre an interesting mixed bag is the china frames. DE Canada do the staples ie Ivara = ranged stealth or Atlas = earth melee. DE China brings more hybrid frames which are more versatile but dont excel at anything as Wukong is stealth, melee and tank rolled into but but theres better frames for all three of those roles. Nezha powerset is about Speed, CC and tanking damage yet again considering stats theres better options for those 2.

 

Verdict? Theyre unquestionably unique and offer fun different ways to play so i think the hate is unjustified for them and would encourage MORE of them. As for the hate on their acquisition/exclusitivity... thats a whole different kind of debate.

[Mr.Lube]

I dislike Wukong because his abilities are boring and his Defy is game breaking. He is just poorly designed.

[achromos]

I dislike Wukong because his abilities are boring and his Defy is game breaking. He is just poorly designed.

 

Game breaking?  It's weaker then Hysteria dude.  Valk has more damage in her ult, and invincibility that doesn't run out or leave you vulnerable if you have to toggle it on/off.  You can go afk in hysteria, in Defy if you go afk for too long you will die.

 

Game breaking because he has range with his Defy?  Not really, when we can make any enemy helpless and do more for our team with other frames.  Just relying on Defy makes him a Gun frame.  Where he has to compete with Mirage, at the very least and that is a no contest.  You're looking at Wukong wrong, tell me.  If he was game breaking... where is he in pubs?  Remember when the Synoid Gammacor came out and was Really gamebreaking?  How it caught on like wild-fire?

 

So...  Where is Wukong?

[RahuHordika]

A lot of it is subtle racism and transphobia, really

You know? It kinda pisses me off when people just pull the racism card and ignore everything else, I think it's just as idiotic as those exhibiting actual xenophobia, yes they are there but it's not everyone.

Op, if you're looking for a reasonable issue a lot of people had with the chinaframes.... well I think plenty of people have said it already, the chinaframes are just too out there, too obvious and stand out from the rest... let me go into more detail.

DE has been so far keeping a track record of making original warframes since the begging, no matter the reference or theme the warframev have always been their own thing, even Mesa who is very obvious appereance-wise still has a completely original power set that goes along with her theme; heck Limbo's appereance is obvious but you would never be able to guess the whole rift mechanic from the looks alone.

Then the chinaframes come along and it does not take long to figure out that unlike everything else they've done to this point they are straight rips from the character's they're based on: Powers, name and base of appereance, all is taken straight from the source and are thus literal representations that constrast the rest of DE's work, with their powers looking odd at first when they were revealed if not almost redundant (except for a few). That last point is even more up to opinion of one, as we can actually try them out now.

Ultimately it all comes off as mostly shock and dissapointment because it seems that DE's creative capabilities took a step back for this one, these frames were created as chinese promos but since DE themselves made them one would have expected them to at least do something a bit more creative and/or original and still mantain the chinese themes, instead of just turning chinese mythos directly into a a warframe and just that. Additionally some people seem to heavily dislike designs that are too obvious to their source of origin (generally the same kind that would hate on Mesa's and Limbo's appereance).

Edited December 20, 2015 by RahuHordika

[achromos]

You know? It kinda pisses me off when people just pull the racism card and ignore everything else, I think it's just as idiotic as those exhibiting actual xenophobia, yes they are there but it's not everyone.

Op, if you're looking for a reasonable issue a lot of people had with the chinaframes.... well I think plenty of people have said it already, the chinaframes are just too out there, too obvious and stand out from the rest... let me go into more detail.

DE has been so far keeping a track record of making original warframes since the begging, no matter the reference or theme the warframev have always been their own thing, even Mesa who is very obvious appereance-wise still has a completely original power set that goes along with her theme; heck Limbo's appereance is obvious but you would never be able to guess the whole rift mechanic from the looks alone.

Then the chinaframes come along and it does not take long to figure out that unlike everything else they've done to this point they are straight rips from the character's they're based on: Powers, name and base of appereance, all is taken straight from the source and are thus literal representations that constrast the rest of DE's work, with their powers looking odd at first when they were revealed if not almost redundant (except for a few). That last point is even more up to opinion of one, as we can actually try them out now.

Ultimately it all comes off as mostly shock and dissapointment because it seems that DE's creative capabilities took a step back for this one, these frames were created as chinese promos but since DE themselves made them one would have expected them to at least do something a bit more creative and/or original and still mantain the chinese themes, instead of just turning chinese mythos directly into a a warframe and just that.

 

 

 

Mag...  Magnitises things

Ember... burn things

Frost.. Freezes things...

 

You're acting like these two frames are a cardinal sin, let's be honest here.  There are only so many 'unique' ideas' out there and not every snowflake is going to truly be special.  As far as it all being taken from the Source and being literal, I didn't know wukong or his staff looked like that, I didn't know Nezah looked like that or his chakram was like that either.

 

I didn't know he summoned fiery energy spears or could create a path of cleansing fire.  I'll admit that they aren't the most unique, but I am going to go on with the opinion of people are being quite Xenophobic.

 

I do get that there isn't a lore figure named Mag, Ember, or Frost, but the point still stands that they had a source to go off of and followed it around.  Granted I wouldn't expect Ember to shoot Electricity, but I digress...

 

People who are disappointed in this stuff have every right to, but they also have every right to have their views questioned like anyone else and either agreed with or disagreed with.

[VampirePirate]

Hatred is never justified for any reason.

 

If people dislike the frames, fine.  Hatred is a completely different issue.

 

I would state where the hatred truly comes from, but... that will only cause people to comment with toxicity.  So i won't.

Here's me making a point.

 

What a superfluous points that adds absolutely nothing to this conversation.

Here is the hate.   The irony of his comment is funny and exactly what I'm talking about.

 

 

I'm going back to play the game now.  Enjoy Nezha and Wukong.

[RahuHordika]

Mag...  Magnitises things

Ember... burn things

Frost.. Freezes things...

Yes, they are themes of magnetism, fire and ice. I fail to see what point are you exactly trying to make.

 

You're acting like these two frames are a cardinal sin, let's be honest here.  There are only so many 'unique' ideas' out there and not every snowflake is going to truly be special.  As far as it all being taken from the Source and being literal, I didn't know wukong or his staff looked like that, I didn't know Nezah looked like that or his chakram was like that either.

Are you being exaggerated for the sake of it? Because you're not making any point here. All frames have been thematic so far and all of them had powers DE had to think of on their own, regardless of how 'original' the concept itself really is, there is no reason why the chinaframes had to be an exception to this, DE could have easily kept the chinese themes and references but still made their own thing. Instead they just recreated the characters into warframes and just that.

Also that last paragraph, I advise agains that kind of 'argument'. It's weak and is nothing more than pointless nitpicking for the sake of it.

 

I didn't know he summoned fiery energy spears or could create a path of cleansing fire.  I'll admit that they aren't the most unique, but I am going to go on with the opinion of people are being quite Xenophobic.

There are xenophobic individuals out there, but if you are going to conclude all of the criticism is xenophobia then you only help to prove my initial claim. The culture couldn't be more irrelevant to me, the concern comes from the frame being a direct representation of a specific character.

I do get that there isn't a lore figure named Mag, Ember, or Frost, but the point still stands that they had a source to go off of and followed it around.  Granted I wouldn't expect Ember to shoot Electricity, but I digress...

Your point stands and it doesn't at the same time. Yes they had to keep a continuous theme, but here's the thing: Fire, ice and magnetism are pretty open themes, DE stuck to that but they could practically come up with any kind of power for the frames based on mere elements. Even the more specific Mesa has powers, that while having to do with guns, were all still pretty open for being practically anything that had to do with them.

People who are disappointed in this stuff have every right to, but they also have every right to have their views questioned like anyone else and either agreed with or disagreed with.

I do not see where I ever denied such thing, however what you're saying works both ways and I offer an alternative answer to the OP questioneing the simple-minded responses that dismiss every form of criticism as racism. I mean because they're chinese means that I cannot give my opinion on the matter otherwise I'm racist? As I said before: Yes there are people that are indeed like that but unlike those comments imply that's not the case for everyone and that has shown countless times before. Also as I said before, culture of origin is irrelevant to me what matters is what I already explained.

[Pyus]

Yes, hate is justified. They are frames that have the same basic rolls as other frames, but the other frames fill those roles better. Nezah, ignore 1 and 2, 3 and 4 are rhino reskins. Wukong, ignore 1-2, 3-4 are valk reskins.

They have nothing that reduces the tedium that is farming or grinding, which is all of the current end game.

[Cidolfus]

Wukong is boring, I admit, but to each their own. 

Nezha is fun. people expect too much.

get off your high kubrows. There's only so much they can make and balance. 

 

If Wukong is boring, Valkyr is even moreso. And that's coming from someone who absolutely loves her.

 

 

Yes, hate is justified. They are frames that have the same basic rolls as other frames, but the other frames fill those roles better. Nezah, ignore 1 and 2, 3 and 4 are rhino reskins. Wukong, ignore 1-2, 3-4 are valk reskins.

They have nothing that reduces the tedium that is farming or grinding, which is all of the current end game.

 

You've never played either warframe if you seriously think they're only reskins.

Edited December 21, 2015 by Cidolfus

[Pyus]

You've never played either warframe if you seriously think they're only reskins.

 

But I have, and they are. Warding halo/devine spears are ridiculously close in function to diamond armor and stomp, except Rhinos abilities are better.  Defy and Primal fury are a poor man's Hysteria. 

 

Please explain to me what benefit bringing a Nezha has over Rhino, or a Wukong over Valkry. 

[(XBOX)Yiazzy]

But I have, and they are. Warding halo/devine spears are ridiculously close in function to diamond armor and stomp, except Rhinos abilities are better. Defy and Primal fury are a poor man's Hysteria.

Please explain to me what benefit bringing a Nezha has over Rhino, or a Wukong over Valkry.

" A poor man's hysteria"???

Seriously? Kill Alad V a couple of times, or have to farm Alertium, and pay over double the cred cost?

Yes, Wukong is ofc the "poor man's" option -_-

[Wolfdoggie]

Didn't care much for Wukong just cuz I didn't find his appearance or skills very interesting. Nezha is probably the best looking frame since Nekros though to me and his skills are pretty cool. Makes me sad to see everyone say he's weak though~ would hate to leave him as mastery fodder. The sortie thing is pretty *@ though so won't have him anytime soon cuz RNG + trading system is tedious. 

[achromos]

Yes, they are themes of magnetism, fire and ice. I fail to see what point are you exactly trying to make.

 

Are you being exaggerated for the sake of it? Because you're not making any point here. All frames have been thematic so far and all of them had powers DE had to think of on their own, regardless of how 'original' the concept itself really is, there is no reason why the chinaframes had to be an exception to this, DE could have easily kept the chinese themes and references but still made their own thing. Instead they just recreated the characters into warframes and just that.

Also that last paragraph, I advise agains that kind of 'argument'. It's weak and is nothing more than pointless nitpicking for the sake of it.

 

There are xenophobic individuals out there, but if you are going to conclude all of the criticism is xenophobia then you only help to prove my initial claim. The culture couldn't be more irrelevant to me, the concern comes from the frame being a direct representation of a specific character.

Your point stands and it doesn't at the same time. Yes they had to keep a continuous theme, but here's the thing: Fire, ice and magnetism are pretty open themes, DE stuck to that but they could practically come up with any kind of power for the frames based on mere elements. Even the more specific Mesa has powers, that while having to do with guns, were all still pretty open for being practically anything that had to do with them.

I do not see where I ever denied such thing, however what you're saying works both ways and I offer an alternative answer to the OP questioneing the simple-minded responses that dismiss every form of criticism as racism. I mean because they're chinese means that I cannot give my opinion on the matter otherwise I'm racist? As I said before: Yes there are people that are indeed like that but unlike those comments imply that's not the case for everyone and that has shown countless times before. Also as I said before, culture of origin is irrelevant to me what matters is what I already explained.

 

The point is that these warframes have a theme that HAS been done before, the elements?  Fire, Ice, ect?  Magnetism?  Magneto.  It has been done before, but it has their own spin on them.  Sun Wukong, and Nezah?  Both are just themes that like the Fire, Ice, and Magnetism themes, they were both built around. 

 

I conclude most of the argument's I see right now as Xenophobia because people seem to be hating on these warframes that were made BY DE in-house, just because they have a eastern origin.  You can criticize their tight themes, but I just wanted people to see that ultimately every warframe start's out with just a Theme, starting out with a eastern theme makes it no different then the others in terms of uniqueness. 

 

The abilities of those frames do go off of their lore in eastern culture, but to make my point more concise... Its not like Wukong/Nezah look like they do in their lore, nor did they have those exact four abilities and only those, and like I said I doubt that DE looked at a photo and drew them up point for point.  What I am saying is that there was thought put into the abilities and DE still added their own unique flair to the designs.

 

You can, of-course give your opinion whether I will it or not.  However that was not my point in posting here.  The point of my posting is to maybe show a counter argument and that Wukong and Nezah aren't the first ones to follow a theme.  I will admit that Ember, Mag, Volt, ect are more Vague, but I see no issue with a few frames having a more specific theme as long as it looks and plays like a unique warframe.

 

p.s.:  I never called 'you' specifically xenophobic, and the reason why I am disregarding most as xenophobic is because unlike your post most of them can be boiled down to:  "They belong in China Frame, they are eastern frames, get them out of MY warframe."

Edited December 21, 2015 by achromos

[(PSN)OppneusKorsuss]

Sigh, people seem to have a hard time understanding that some players find the chinaframes lackluster because they are derivative and lazy, not because they are Chinese.

I'd be just as unimpressed if DE revealed their next frame to be "Thor"; a frame that throws his hammer and summons down lightning.

[Thebel]

Powers wise, at least they are more creative than Chroma. 2 powers are buffs and the other 2 are basically breathe attacks.

[StonedMakak]

Sigh, people seem to have a hard time understanding that some players find the chinaframes lackluster because they are derivative and lazy, not because they are Chinese.

I'd be just as unimpressed if DE revealed their next frame to be "Thor"; a frame that throws his hammer and summons down lightning.

 

Next frame should be male right? Calling it now, Chucknorris frame, design includes a beard, a cowboy hat and a Texas Ranger badge. Ultimate is a roundhouse kick that wins you the mission automatically. Along with the next sortie. 

 

Seriously, I too don't get this "people who don't like Chinaframes are xenophobic" comments, maybe because I don't bother paying attention to people who use such idiotic argumentation (as in, dislike the frames due to being a xenophobe). What I have seen mostly, are opinions that designs are far too much on the nose, to a point of them being carbon copies of existing characters, with which I agree. And I bought Wukong with plat, he's a fun frame. 

[Kunavi]

All I know is that in its current state, WF needs Melee 3.0(And a major buff to aiming and target lock with it) and a new Damage system. How does that tie in with this discussion? Simple, I'm fed up with frames that at rank 15+ can wipe Draco on their own, as members of a 4 man team, with little to no effort in either modding or ability management. If you know WF then you know what this entails for later game. As a Valk main I can tell you she(Valk) and any similar frame suffer from too much competition at what they do(Damage dealing, damage soaking). Or it is simply how damage works or how melee works or both. Or all 3. When I saw my 4th Nezha earlier mopping the floor with 30-40 level Grineer on Draco at rank 18 and my fully modded, forma, potato and fully modded weapons Hysteria build STRUGGLING to get kills... I cried a bit. Well I didn't really, but I'd understand anyone who would, at that point. I was behind in kills, damage and almost even in melee kills! Wat! I get the same results in teams that have Ash P spamming MapMurderUlti and it's equally frustrating and amazing at the same time, I ain't even mad, just feel completely useless.

So all that justified salt aside, I can tell you Nezha is a Super Sayan Ember from what it looks like. WK is just... I don't know? Redundant? OK? Cool? I don't really care about him and all the WKs I see I barely notice around the map. No idea what they're doing. Ivara is cool IMHO. I don't mind her at all but I'd never play as her.

Edited December 21, 2015 by Kunavi

[(PSN)OMGITSNUKERXD]

I never hated them.

[-Dantos-]

I dont hate them. I have wukong atm, with Nezha in the oven. 

 

Wukong is an alternative to Valkyr, not really bringing anything terrible unique to the table except for the theme

 

Nezha looks like a solid solo/quick run frame, kinda a combo of volt and rhino with a little loki thrown in. A big problem here might come from the fact he comes from sorties.

 

I think the problem might be they are trying to be direct 1:1 translations of culturally significant characters, which simply arent going to resonate that well outside their culture, but I dont really think it comes down to hate outside a few vocal people.

Edited December 21, 2015 by Vanroe

[purple_cabbage]

The whole Excalibur prime umbra issue is finally starting to come full circle. WF China is a separate game, different build and not part of our pool of players (meaning I can't run a pub with wf China)

Asian markets are different from ours. Frames like nezha and wukong actually fit those regions expectations/desires pretty well. If some parts of the international community could have simply been mature about it we wouldn't be dealing with all this salt. They would have gone their merry way and we ours. Instead ppl clamoured for Chinese content, made a big deal about how DE has no interest in its existing market and basically cornered the company into releasing material that isn't designed for this market.

I think DE made a bad decision trying to please that minority and releasing so much WF China content in the main build. Both games should just stay separate.

[Zerathos_Dagon]

I'm totally ok with their ability sets. Sure, some of them could use some work in the form of some small nerfs, buffs and quality of life tweaks, but it's all good overall. Same with Ivara.

 

And the way they look is totally up to personal preference. Unless it's something universally disliked, like Chroma's Drac helmet and Banshee's boat slippers. Personally I think Wukong looks awesome, same with Ivara, and Nezha brings a fresh new look to the table that doesn't look all that bad.

 

The thing I do have an issue with is how you are expected to get them.

Edited December 21, 2015 by Zerathos_Dagon

[Kothophed]

The grind for both is maddening.  That explains much of the hate as when grinding many expect that if (current frame) took 4 hours to farm from (boss) then nezha should be 5 times as good as he takes >20 hours to farm from alerts/sorties.

[(XBOX)Skode]

The grind for both is maddening.  That explains much of the hate as when grinding many expect that if (current frame) took 4 hours to farm from (boss) then nezha should be 5 times as good as he takes >20 hours to farm from alerts/sorties.

Yet next year newbs will be seeing Nezha sets for 50 plat and join clans who have fully researched Wukong. The grind wont be so bad in time.

[YasaiTsume]

Imo Wukong and Nezha are just 

a) Mastery Fodder

 

b) Guest stars on a reality show that we call Warframe.

They do not break the game, they do not make the game revolve around their pinky, they are basically extra content, like a bonus.

 

The end. 

 

No point hating on extra content.