Naramon's Shadow Step Is Overpowered

[Inmemoratus]

Man invisibility is so broken that when I had multiple Lokis in that interception sortie today... nevermind, that sucked and we failed. Then I got a team with a Nyx and we dominated it.

[AKKILLA]

Well, the topic was dead... Twice... But people brought it back.

 

the topic could die again if we ignore it ;)

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

Ivara and loki can do it and not be limited to melee and having an enemy to hit every 10 seconds. Naramon is barely strong enough..

Completely inferior to zenurik, but hey it's a novelty. And it's not completely useless garbage like unairu.

[theammostore]

They are already so many ways to be almost invincible, what gonna change if we nerf that ?

By the way do the nullifier remove the tenno buff like trinity bless ?

 

and for the fact you harder to hit when you move exept explosion/shocwave, it's true but only against time travel projectile so only against corpus,infested and most orokin but against grineer, most of them got hitscan weapon, they will most of them hit you if you don't take time to CC them before

the taste you go the more in accurate enemies are to you from what I remember. I've yet to be killed by anyone while traveling at mach speeds. Like, if I just aimglide or even just jumpkick its hard for me to be hit.

And what we can do is nerf invis to something where enemies will react based on sound as well as sight. So if they hear a noise they start shooting in the direction it came from. That way we don't have this problem of invisibility making you untargetable by everything. And yes, you cannot be directly shot by enemies, unless you just don't move at all after going invis

[Inmemoratus]

Ivara and loki can do it and not be limited to melee and having an enemy to hit every 10 seconds. Naramon is barely strong enough..

Completely inferior to zenurik, but hey it's a novelty. And it's not completely useless garbage like unairu.

 

This is a good point. Does Naramon help you bumrush objectives? Nope. Still need a warframe adept at doing it.

[Kontrollo]

I'm not sure if you're willing to understand why it's not a problem, but I'm going to give it a shot anyway:

 

Warframe is easy and not challenging in the first place. Frames like Valkyr and others (invis frames, excal/mirage, etc) already prevent the devs from creating challenging content.

 

The only reason they would add stupid BS like that is if players like you continue demanding "challenge" which honestly is impossible in this game. And it's PvE anyway so anything that is initially challenging will lose its challenge after the best strategies have been discovered and mastered.

 

*Sigh* I guess this is the kind of reaction that had to be expected.

 

First of all, you should try forming a rebuttal in your own words instead of parroting me. This just comes across as immature and is not helping your argument.

 

The devs have stated repeatedly they want us to feel powerful, but they also have to make it so our enemies are able to retaliate in some form. The most recent example of this is how they want to tackle miniboss and boss fights in the future.

 

Arguments like the following are very tired, and repeating them over and over do not make them any more true:

• "The game is already too easy, so it doesn't matter if X makes it too easy as well."
• "Mechanic Y is OP already, therefore mechanic X which is OP as well must not be toned down or removed." (Also known as "don't take away my shiny toy")
• "The game can't be balanced."
• "It's PvE, everything goes in PvE." (This one is funny because it forms a cycle with the first one)
• "If you don't like it, don't use it."
• "If you don't like it, play solo/other game Y/not at all."
• "Why would you want to nerf fun??" (including all the no-fun-allowed pictures)
• "Why won't anyone, please, think of the children!"

 

How about you respond to my post in earnest and try to make a point about why you don't think this will lead to another round of enemies like Nullifiers?

 

 

Edit:

... Bursas were not fair, the rocket launching thing they do is not fair, their stun locking repetitive knock down tantrum fit is not fair, their existence is not fair. ...

 

Don't you think as well that knockdown spam was implemented to keep even invisible Warframes away from the Bursas? In its current implementation, our enemies don't know how to retaliate against invisibility, but I guess permanently emitting knockdown shockwaves works.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Kontrollo

[akira_him]

brace yourself

kavats and their tamer are coming

and it was a thing before naramon was a thing

Edited February 5, 2016 by akira_him

[-N7-Leonhart]

Yeah, it's OP. I like and hate that at the same time. Therefore, I would not mind if it gets a tone-down, provided some other stuff get a step up.

[DarkestAbyss]

Why is everyone saying you must nerf naramon focus? Why not just make every other focus better. The reason why everyone chooses naramon is because it gives the most useful utility compare to the other 5.

[Specific.Zod]

what make shadow step viable is its crit mutiplier. just remove it. lol... or downgrade it. or add a cooldown time between each proc, like you have 10 second invi, then 5 second off cooldown for it to be used proc again. that's a neft. reduce cooldown to 4 still not help much because melee can now crit pretty much 99% of the time. it's only a problem when you have to move to find target after each slaughter.

[Buzkyl]

Why is everyone saying you must nerf naramon focus? Why not just make every other focus better. The reason why everyone chooses naramon is because it gives the most useful utility compare to the other 5.

 

Firstly, Zenurik.

 

 

Secondly, chaining invisbility is broken. The end. If anything has to be nerfed is that.

 

Lastly, Naramon was in check due tot he fact that not all weapons are crit viable, Shadow Debt threw that out the window with New mods.

[AKKILLA]

Shadow Steps duration is fine. Give it a % so the Nerf Clans and Alliances are happy. The duration stays Period. When will this community stop asking for all these Nerfs?!

 

Goodness gracious 

NERF SQUAD

[Coaa]

Zenurik's is much more powerful then the invisibility. With nara, you have to continue to constantly melee to keep the buff up, and when it wears off, you have to get in their face again to reactivate it. This works until you start fighitng endgame tier level enemies that'll just bslap you and kill you.

 

Zenurik regens MASSIVE energy / sec allowing the CC frames to endlessly lock down everything without ever worrying about collecting energy or using e-pads. This allows you lockdown of the entire map, not just yay i'm invis (not invuln). Nara is great for solo and a little bit for group based to keep you alive when stuff gets in the oneshot territory, but keeping it up means you aren't helping your team CC/stay alive.

[Inmemoratus]

*Sigh* I guess this is the kind of reaction that had to be expected.

 

First of all, you should try forming a rebuttal in your own words instead of parroting me. This just comes across as immature and is not helping your argument.

 

The devs have stated repeatedly they want us to feel powerful, but they also have to make it so our enemies are able to retaliate in some form. The most recent example of this is how they want to tackle miniboss and boss fights in the future.

 

Arguments like the following are very tired, and repeating them over and over do not make them any more true:

• "The game is already too easy, so it doesn't matter if X makes it too easy as well."
•  
• "Mechanic Y is OP already, therefore mechanic X which is OP as well must not be toned down or removed." (Also known as "don't take away my shiny toy")
•  
• "The game can't be balanced."
•  
• "It's PvE, everything goes in PvE." (This one is funny because it forms a cycle with the first one)
•  
• "If you don't like it, don't use it."
•  
• "If you don't like it, play solo/other game Y/not at all."
•  
• "Why would you want to nerf fun??" (including all the no-fun-allowed pictures)
•  
• "Why won't anyone, please, think of the children!"
•  

 

How about you respond to my post in earnest and try to make a point about why you don't think this will lead to another round of enemies like Nullifiers?

 

 

Edit:

 

Don't you think as well that knockdown spam was implemented to keep even invisible Warframes away from the Bursas? In its current implementation, our enemies don't know how to retaliate against invisibility, but I guess permanently emitting knockdown shockwaves works.

 

Don't act like an arrogant prick and maybe people won't respond the same way. "Oh you wouldn't understand, but as a gesture of goodwill, I shall deign to explain my transcendent level of cognition on this matter to a lowly urchin such as you." is how that comes off.

 

Well let's see, everything you whited out was all that was necessary. You just dismissed it as invalid because it's a common perspective. But that actually does not make it invalid, so try again.

 

And I love nullifiers so what's your point? I'm sorry that you have so much trouble with a well designed enemy that forces you to make tactical decisions. And no please don't try to explain why you think they're badly designed. They are not a valid reference point to this discussion because whether or not they're well designed is not objective, nor is it unanimously agreed upon.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Inmemoratus

[Inmemoratus]

Why is everyone saying you must nerf naramon focus? Why not just make every other focus better. The reason why everyone chooses naramon is because it gives the most useful utility compare to the other 5.

 

It's not even the best. It's a novelty/gimmick in comparison to Zenurik. Oh boy, going indefinitely in survival... That's totally a new thing and totally useful /sarcasm

 

Meanwhile you still can't replace Loki for bumrushing objectives.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Inmemoratus

[Hypernaut1]

ok, so i recently maxed out Shadow Step...i kinda have to agree with the OP now. 10 seconds is waaayyyyy too long. It does feels kind of cheap running around invisible with any frame and it alters my playstyle a bit. 

 

The enemy needs a better counter to invisibility. I dont think you should be able to hack away at a group while invisible and have them not react. Invisibility should be for hit and run tactics and require a min distance to stay undetected after alerting enemy.

 

If they won't improved enemy A.I, then i honestly wouldnt mind a nerf to shadow step.  they could either cut the duration or make it have a max crit% it will activate on.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Hypernaut1

[Inmemoratus]

ok, so i recently maxed out Shadow Step...i kinda have to agree with the OP now. 10 seconds is waaayyyyy too long. It does feels kind of cheap running around invisible with any frame and it alters my playstyle a bit. 

 

The enemy needs a better counter to invisibility. I dont think you should be able to hack away at a group while invisible and have them not react. Invisibility should be for hit and run tactics and require a min distance to stay undetected after alerting enemy.

 

If they won't improved enemy A.I, then i honestly wouldnt mind a nerf to shadow step.  they could either cut the duration or make it have a max crit% it will activate on.

 

If you used Zenurik you could spam CC and prevent all enemies from damaging anyone on your team.

 

Invisibility only protects yourself.

[Kontrollo]

Don't act like an arrogant prick and maybe people won't respond the same way. "Oh you wouldn't understand, but as a gesture of goodwill, I shall deign to explain my transcendent level of cognition on this matter to a lowly urchin such as you." is how that comes off.

 

Acting like an arrogant prick? It's you who's now flinging insults around, I did no such thing. You want to know why I wrote that "willing to try to understand"? Because I was expecting just the kind of reaction you gave here. This thread has gone for 20+ pages just like this, and that's even after the pruning. Black/white blanket statements, logical fallacies, now insults again, but barely any effort to have a constructive discussion.

 

 

Well let's see, everything you whited out was all that was necessary. You just dismissed it as invalid because it's a common perspective. But that actually does not make it invalid, so try again.

 

I did no such thing, that was the forum/browser software being stupid. You probably wrote part of your post with Word or somesuch and copied the formatting, too, or you're using a different theme on this forum. That's why the font/size in your post is different as well.

 

I just pressed the quote button. But yeah, keep piling on.

 

 

And I love nullifiers so what's your point? I'm sorry that you have so much trouble with a well designed enemy that forces you to make tactical decisions. And no please don't try to explain why you think they're badly designed. They are not a valid reference point to this discussion because whether or not they're well designed is not objective, nor is it unanimously agreed upon.

 

Then you're one of the very few. Have you actually seen how much hate they've received on the forums since their inception? But this is not about Nullifiers, either. So you still haven't tried to actually respond to the point I brought up in my post. My point is this: How would like it if we'd keep Naramon exactly like it is, but then they'd introduce a new type of enemy specifically geared against stealth? That's what I'm predicting will happen.

 

Other than that if you go back in this thread I've made suggestion as to how Shadow Step could be changed to keep the mechanic but prevent it from completely bypassing our enemies. Because that's what it does right now. It's simply no problem to critically hit an enemy with (quick) melee once every 10 seconds. Anyone who says otherwise is being disingenious, because the guy who started the thread even posted a clip about it.

 

My opinion on the mechanic itself - as it is right now - is this: 0.5 seconds is obviously too low and 10 seconds too high. Somewhere in between there should be a spot where Shadow Step would actually make sense as a passive for all Warframes to have. Just don't tell me it's ok in its current form. If I wanted to play a game me vs. environment instead of enemies, I'd be doing nothing but Happy Zephyr all day. That's what a maxed Shadow Step boils down to in its current form.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

Naramon being nerfed to stop the inclusion of a terrible new stealth detecting warframe killing enemy is how this post should have been introduced, most people don't understand why other "unfun" people want nerfs. But it's too late. It was always too late. I think DE knew they were going to do something about invisibility a long time ago. Cat ladies, supposebly are supposed to detect invisible enemies. If they give other enemies the ability to detect invisible warframes it's a wrap. This is the day after tomorrow equivalent of warframe, nerf bros are climatologist, and buff bros are power hungry politicians. We don't need more bursas, no one needs bursas. We don't need more sapping ospreys either. Cut down on the ultimate power hype, and then DE won't keep trying to kill us tenno with more powerful enemies. And I'm a buff bro, but this just makes sense.

[Inmemoratus]

Acting like an arrogant prick? It's you who's now flinging insults around, I did no such thing. You want to know why I wrote that "willing to try to understand"? Because I was expecting just the kind of reaction you gave here. This thread has gone for 20+ pages just like this, and that's even after the pruning. Black/white blanket statements, logical fallacies, now insults again, but barely any effort to have a constructive discussion.

 

 

 

I did no such thing, that was the forum/browser software being stupid. You probably wrote part of your post with Word or somesuch and copied the formatting, too, or you're using a different theme on this forum. That's why the font/size in your post is different as well.

 

I just pressed the quote button. But yeah, keep piling on.

 

 

 

Then you're one of the very few. Have you actually seen how much hate they've received on the forums since their inception? But this is not about Nullifiers, either. So you still haven't tried to actually respond to the point I brought up in my post. My point is this: How would like it if we'd keep Naramon exactly like it is, but then they'd introduce a new type of enemy specifically geared against stealth? That's what I'm predicting will happen.

 

Other than that if you go back in this thread I've made suggestion as to how Shadow Step could be changed to keep the mechanic but prevent it from completely bypassing our enemies. Because that's what it does right now. It's simply no problem to critically hit an enemy with (quick) melee once every 10 seconds. Anyone who says otherwise is being disingenious, because the guy who started the thread even posted a clip about it.

 

My opinion on the mechanic itself - as it is right now - is this: 0.5 seconds is obviously too low and 10 seconds too high. Somewhere in between there should be a spot where Shadow Step would actually make sense as a passive for all Warframes to have. Just don't tell me it's ok in its current form. If I wanted to play a game me vs. environment instead of enemies, I'd be doing nothing but Happy Zephyr all day. That's what a maxed Shadow Step boils down to in its current form.

 

You were asking for that kind of response by framing it in that way.

 

Anyway you are seemingly unaware that there are plenty of other ways to bypass enemies like massive CC abilities that stun a whole tile of enemies. Of all the sorties I've done I've never seen stealth be it Naramon, Loki, Ash, or otherwise, be a dominant force in the mission. It's always some Mirage, Nyx, Vauban, etc... locking everything down.

 

The reason why CC is so much more dominant is that so many mission types aren't about keeping yourself alive, but rather about killing enemies quickly and protecting objectives.

 

How can you honestly expect the need to arise for a hard counter to stealth when CC is still much more dominant? And for any mission type that favors stealth, frames that don't need to stop and attack enemies to activate stealth are far superior.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Inmemoratus

[Kontrollo]

You were asking for that kind of response by framing it in that way.

 

Anyway you are seemingly unaware that there are plenty of other ways to bypass enemies like massive CC abilities that stun a whole tile of enemies. Of all the sorties I've done I've never seen stealth be it Naramon, Loki, Ash, or otherwise, be a dominant force in the mission. It's always some Mirage, Nyx, Vauban, etc... locking everything down.

 

The reason why CC is so much more dominant is that so many mission types aren't about keeping yourself alive, but rather about killing enemies quickly and protecting objectives.

 

How can you honestly expect the need to arise for a hard counter to stealth when CC is still much more dominant? And for any mission type that favors stealth, frames that don't need to stop and attack enemies to activate stealth are far superior.

 

I stand by what I wrote. I've been following this thread and I've read through all of it over time. I was expecting a specific reaction would follow and wasn't proven wrong. Note also, I wrote "I'm not sure" and "willing to try to understand", and that was exactly what I meant to write. You could've reacted in a different way but you didn't.

 

You're still beating around the bush in your response. My point is not about CC. Powers being abused (spammed) was met with the introduction of Nullifiers. I made a prediction the same would happen with stealth if Shadow Step were to stay like it is, and what you're doing here is responding with another fallacy, namely a red herring. That's also why I made that list. These kinds of arguments are very popular, but being popular doesn't make them any less fallacious.

 

Anyway, I'm not going to argue with you about this any longer, I'm done with this exchange. Feel free to have the last word.

[DSMatticus]

I don't think you know how to talk about balance. The claim is that shadow step is overpowered. It's right in the title: "Naramons's Shadow Step Is Overpowered." Do you know why it's called overpowered? Because it's a relative assessment; you have to compare it to something. You have to. It's not an option. Comparisons are how you talk balance. If you aren't comparing things, you aren't actually talking balance. Bringing up other abilities - frankly, better abilities - to demonstrate the sorts of things players are already capable of is not a fallacy. It's how you talk balance. It's pivotal to the question being asked. After all, naramon's shadow step is only truly overpowered if we can determine that it's out of line with the game's existing content.

 

The game's existing content includes loki, who can easily spend 95% of the mission invisible without being required to melee.

 

The game's existing content includes valkyr, who can easily spend 100% of the mission invincible while being required to melee (also their melee gets a huge buff).

 

The game's existing content includes mirage, who can make the whole team invincible by turning off the enemy AI. </sarcasm>

 

When you look at what's already in the game, shadow step is "neat." I would have fun with it for a bit, and then forget about it, because if I'm playing anything difficult enough to "need" it I already have better options available to me. Even in terms of using the ability for stealth (i.e., spy, the only mission type where stealth is a thing that matters), the fact that it requires killing rules it out.

 

Similarly, zenurik's energy regen is "neat." Frankly energy is such a minor concern that DE could remove the energy bar entirely and it might take me weeks to even notice. Even if efficiency mods and orbs aren't enough, the ability to spam restores (which hand out about five times as much energy per second as the zenurik passive) means I already have ways to never run out of energy.

 

Really, the only thing arguably overpowered are the madurai damage passives. They're a source of damage that can't be replicated elsewhere, so if you go madurai your weapons are just straight up better than everyone elses and there's nothing they can do about it except give up their "neat" abilities and go madurai. But it's also really boring, so of course there's no 23 page thread about it.

[Inmemoratus]

 

Anyway, I'm not going to argue with you about this any longer, I'm done with this exchange. Feel free to have the last word.

 

You didn't even address my point about Naramon not taking over the actual roles of stealth frames. Stopping to hit an enemy every time you see one isn't efficient and it notifies enemies so you end up with alarms. You haven't explained in which mission type Naramon breaks the game or even does something you couldn't do already.

 

If you want to rush objective based missions, there are frames designed specifically to bypass all enemies. You'd think if that was a problem, the hard counters you're so afraid of would have already been implemented in the game.

[Kontrollo]

I don't think you know how to talk about balance. The claim is that shadow step is overpowered. It's right in the title: "Naramons's Shadow Step Is Overpowered." Do you know why it's called overpowered? Because it's a relative assessment; you have to compare it to something. You have to. It's not an option. Comparisons are how you talk balance. If you aren't comparing things, you aren't actually talking balance. Bringing up other abilities - frankly, better abilities - to demonstrate the sorts of things players are already capable of is not a fallacy. It's how you talk balance. It's pivotal to the question being asked. After all, naramon's shadow step is only truly overpowered if we can determine that it's out of line with the game's existing content.

 

The game's existing content includes loki, who can easily spend 95% of the mission invisible without being required to melee.

 

The game's existing content includes valkyr, who can easily spend 100% of the mission invincible while being required to melee (also their melee gets a huge buff).

 

The game's existing content includes mirage, who can make the whole team invincible by turning off the enemy AI. </sarcasm>

 

When you look at what's already in the game, shadow step is "neat." I would have fun with it for a bit, and then forget about it, because if I'm playing anything difficult enough to "need" it I already have better options available to me. Even in terms of using the ability for stealth (i.e., spy, the only mission type where stealth is a thing that matters), the fact that it requires killing rules it out.

 

Similarly, zenurik's energy regen is "neat." Frankly energy is such a minor concern that DE could remove the energy bar entirely and it might take me weeks to even notice. Even if efficiency mods and orbs aren't enough, the ability to spam restores (which hand out about five times as much energy per second as the zenurik passive) means I already have ways to never run out of energy.

 

Really, the only thing arguably overpowered are the madurai damage passives. They're a source of damage that can't be replicated elsewhere, so if you go madurai your weapons are just straight up better than everyone elses and there's nothing they can do about it except give up their "neat" abilities and go madurai. But it's also really boring, so of course there's no 23 page thread about it.

 

See, you're actually making a real effort to engage in a discussion with a well-written post, so I'll gladly respond to this, even if I don't agree.

 

I know there's a lot of other stuff that trivialises the game in one way or another, but those are gated in some kind at least; I'm not a fan of Loki's Invisibility, I even said so before in here (it's actually funny that I kind of ended up defending him now). Be it by energy, the need to recast - even if it's only for a moment - or counters: Nullifiers and now Comba/Scrambus units as well as some other effects.

 

With 10 seconds of Shadow Step you really don't have any of these problems, because it bypasses even Nullifier bubbles and there's no effort involved in keeping it up permanently (OP shows this in his videos and doesn't even have it maxed). So yes, let's compare it to Loki's stealth. 10 seconds of Shadow Step are without a doubt an upgrade, because it allows for permanent invisibility for any Warframe after three-something minutes, and our enemies are simply unable to retaliate against that. That's what makes it broken.

 

It follows that pointing to unrelated things when this is about Shadow Step is only trying to divert the discussion, because these other things are not the same. (Aside: I feel like I'm not one to call stuff OP just for the sake of it, see e.g. my opinion on the Tonkor in this and previous posts.)

 

They might be in the same league if we had enemies who break this stealth the same way Nullifier bubbles and related effects break abilities.

 

What happens if Shadow Step is kept as is? The devs will have to find a way to break stealth (and it even looks like this is bound to happen anyway). That was my point when I started posting in here again.

 

Also, Spy is not the only mission type where stealth matters. Proof is again in the OP's videos.

 

I actually agree with what you say about Zenurik. It's a minor issue as long as we have Energy Restores (and Trinity, when necessary). The game is already "balanced" around that (and the devs have also shown they're willing to mess with it in some ways. E.g. an energy pool hard cap of 50 is what I'd call a cheesy solution to this particular problem). But again, this is about Shadow Step.

 

Madurai? I haven't seen anyone able to abuse those in some way, but I can't really comment.

[Inmemoratus]

The OP used it to do long survival runs, which is not useful, nor is it unprecedented.

 

Nullifiers counter warframe stealth abilities. So why not just make nullifiers also counter Shadow Step? Then it does nothing special compared to warframe abilities that have been in the game since day 1.

 

Again, the OP just posted exhibitions of an alternate strategy of doing something we could already do. Which mission does Shadow Step matter in? You're gonna wait 3 minutes before you even start a spy/rescue/capture?

Edited February 6, 2016 by Inmemoratus