I Don't Understand The Bloodrush & Body Count Complaints

[Cyandana]

Complaints:

1) Mods are OP

2) Mods are "required"

3) Excal/Valk/Wukong etc don't get benefit

Reasons why complaints are stupid:

1) For the first time in FOREVER normal melee weapons can hold half a candle to "top-tier" ranged weapons. So now my Primed Reach Scindo/War is like... a third as good as a Boltor P/Hek? . That's freaking great imo.

2) Damage 3.0 will remove the real "Required" pests, in the mean time deal lmao.

3) I cannot fathom how anyone would call for a buff to Excal/Valkyr. Excal is renowned as one of the best damage dealers period - I've come to hate the frame because he makes them game legit BORING for myself and my team until we hit the point where he get's one shot. Valkyr is immortal and is one of two frames that can deal with "true" endgame enemies - why on EARTH do we need MORE hysteria damage?

[TheGuyver]

I can't speak for the OP part, it certainly created a niche for some weapons though. Combos have been ignored since melee 2.0 dropped, the body count mod is basically a band aid fix for something DE put in and abandoned like several other features. The third thing is people just wanting more power creep.

[RagingGrizzly]

I agree. Completely.

 

These new mods, or at least how the mods are (Do an action and get the buff for a period of time) are probably going to be the ones that replace the mods we currently have. 

[KiloFoxx]

Hysteria really doesn't deal as much damage as you give it credit for. its range is piss-poor and the only real way to get real damage out of it is the slide-melee or a Finisher (which are stupidly long) at this point, with the new event mods, you can very easily make nearly any melee weapon STRONGER than Hysteria simply with what mods flat-out don't work on her. this than makes Hysteria's one and ONLY draw over a Eternal-War Max Armour build, the Immortality and Lifesteal, with the detriment of having functionally decreased damage and ZERO range. No single addition should EVER make a Warframe's ability, especially a 4 ability, basically useless by comparison. Valk is one of my main frames, second in playtime only to my Frost (When combined with Frost Prime's playtime) and I have every single frame released, and I even BUILD for Eternal-War and using Hysteria only as an escape or a quick heal ability. I if anyone should be singing the praises of these mods not working on her. but I'm not. I think it's ridiculous and SHOULD be changed

[-CM-s7even]

It's all bout that power creep, if you get a wif of it, everyone freaks out!

[ThePredicament]

Blood Rush is not that big of a deal BUT the combo duration says a lot about the current state of the system overall.

These mods aren't OP, there are still super high risks that only some frames can even slightly handle when it counts. They WOULD have been OP with melee 1.0's blocking but not now.

 

Mods aren't required because of reason 3. Why gimp yourself unless building specifically around these mods? Not only that but 4x damage mult is just playing catch up to some maxed weapons and again, can only be realistically achieved by some frames. They aren't required but they are GREAT alternatives.

[ashrah]

they mods are nice buff for melee wepon in general... and  valkyr and wukong would be to powerful  if can use it  with abillities

[tnccs215]

I honestly think that body count should be default.

Melee is incredibly funny, but it lacks the punch gunplay has, while having much, much more risk. The combo counter could compensate for that-- as the usage of body count proves-- but its reduced duration prevented that.

Personally, Im thankful for this mods. I love melee, but find most melee oriented frames too easy to use (looking at you, valkyr, excal and wukong), and this gives a great buff to melee in general.

It does increases the utility of crit based melee's, while leaving behind the pure base damage ones... mh... :/

[Djego27]

Body count is just bad, DE should have rather buffed the normal melee counter duration to 10s instead of adding a 2. pressure point for anybody that wants to use the melee weapon for more then life strike.

 

Blood rush is just way over the top, to a point where it becomes a standard mod on everything with 10% or more crit.

 

1. The issue with melee weapons is most of the time not damage(my prisma dual cleavers can deal with L100 stuff quicker then most of my ranged weapons and they got next to no base damage). It is to small hit boxes, channelling being the most energy inefficient thing in the game, melee counter drops off before you can get to your next target and melee does not got speed/tanking benefits(that it should have to work well, what is the reason why it only is common on a hand full of frames).

 

2. There is no reason to not use body count or blood rush currently. They are just as bad as pressure point or fury.

 

3. I do agree, there is no point why Valkyr or Excalibur should deal even more damage with this mods.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Djego27

[OfficerBeepsky]

OP, it's not a question of it being a buff or not, it's a question of using these mods on a weapon being detrimental to actually playing the frame and using its ultimate, frame defining, abilities.

By all rights, they SHOULD work, because the rule to this point was "Every mod that isn't unique to only one weapon or is part of a weapon archetype that is a mismatch to the channeled weapon style, like glaive mods on exalted blade, is fair game."

Except now these two break that rule.

It's... a slap in the face.

Edited January 29, 2016 by OfficerBeepsky

[45neo]

Blood Rush is not that big of a deal BUT the combo duration says a lot about the current state of the system overall.

These mods aren't OP, there are still super high risks that only some frames can even slightly handle when it counts. They WOULD have been OP with melee 1.0's blocking but not now.

 

Mods aren't required because of reason 3. Why gimp yourself unless building specifically around these mods? Not only that but 4x damage mult is just playing catch up to some maxed weapons and again, can only be realistically achieved by some frames. They aren't required but they are GREAT alternatives.

Which the fact that these mods make great alternatives means mods like these are what will increase build diversity not kill it... at least when more mods like these get released.

[Flowen231]

Honestly, these mods are  just a bandaid. Melee should be this good without them because of the high risk that comes with it, especially when you consider that guns still do more DPS. There is nothing wrong with melee becoming late viable regardless of frame.

[PikeOrShield]

I would actually prefer these two mods to work on the ult abilities, not because I think those abilities need a buff, but because I think it's the lesser of 2 evils.  These are MELEE oriented frames with melee ("melee" for Excal) oriented ults.  Now my Rhino can out melee  Valkyr or Wukong ults with these mods.  It also discourages Valkyr, Excal, and Wukong players from using these mods since their ults get nerfed for it.  This is making MELEE frames chose between a good melee weapon or a good ult.  If having these mods equipped nerfed Loki's radial disarm, the community would explode.

[JuanDeages]

I don't understand how people can say a mod with such godly buffs as blood rush/body count isn't considered OP by everyone. In tandem with naramon I'd go so far as to say all but the best guns in the game are outclassed. On its own, sure, it won't save you from the one shots, but red crits on melee with a perma x4+ multiplier is nothing to take lightly by any stretch...

Edited January 29, 2016 by JuanDeages

[Rorgal_Sina]

I'm just annoyed that the only way DE knows how to buff is to buff the crit.

 

Once again, non-crit is left in dust.

[kazeyama]

I don't understand how people can say a mod with such godly buffs as blood rush/body count isn't considered OP by everyone. In tandem with naramon I'd go so far as to say all but the best guns in the game are outclassed. On its own, sure, it won't save you from the one shots, but red crits on melee with a perma x4+ multiplier is nothing to take lightly by any stretch...

 

With the limited mod slots even with the best melee weapon you are going to fall off vs. high level enemies. Melee was already good against the basic star chart 1-35 levels. In sorties or void endless though melee needed to be buffed and even now it still falls off. Go test it yourself in simulcrum vs the max level enemy you can get. It doesn't matter if you red crit every hit cause once you get to level 70-100 enemies you start to fall off and only finishers manage to do good damage. I mean a tonkor or simulor or hek or tigris is still gonna be better than any melee build. 

 

With naramon it is very, very good but you still run a risk having to even get close to an enemy even if you are invis when one stray knockdown or aoe can one shot you. 

[Epsik-kun]

I'm just annoyed that the only way DE knows how to buff is to buff the crit.

 

Once again, non-crit is left in dust.

This isn't true tho. Non-crit benefits greatly from Body Count. Non-crit benefits from Maiming Strike, as it's a way to guarantee a critical strike on almost any weapon.

Blood Rush builds obviously suits crit-oriented melee better, yet if it's sick spins that you want - you can build it on any weapon.

Crit-melee Blood Rush build is also pretty specific and awkward to pull off. It will indeed outperform regular no-Body-Count melee starting around x3 multiplier, however you'll still have your "spool-up" time every time you drop the combo. This build will perform greatly in Survival, but many other missions will force you into a quite nonoptimal way of playing if you want to sustain your combo.

[Ranbanein]

I feel like people just complain too much. Excal/Valkyr/Wukong not getting buffed because of Body Count and Blood Rush being a big deal? As if. They already nuke everything down faster than it matters using their melee, they shouldn't be given something to operate at an even more OP rate. Hysteria not as good as given credit for? When Hysteria can cut apart a level 120 heavy gunner with little to no issue at all, it's fine/doesn't need a buff. The important part is that you are INVINCIBLE. Who cares how much damage you do when you just CAN'T die? Energy regen is cut, sure, but you can still get pickups which are plenty common. Excalibur's Exalted blade not getting a benefit from it, sad, but unwarranted for the buff. You can solo just about anything with a rank 1 Life Strike, decently modded melee weapon and some duration/efficiency. It really doesn't matter too much. As for Wukong, stop whining. True immortality while using a gun? Give it a rest. Overall, these two new mods are very needed, and I agree, the combo extender should be default for melee weapons while offering a little longer to actually make them viable. Weapons like the Tonkor and Sancti Tigris just can't be compared to though even with this for melee.

[srlhama]

Combo timer isn't a weapon stat, it is a mechanic of the game, we asked for a long combo timer a long ago, instead we received a mod to fix it.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

@ Cyandana

You left out a reason for defneding why WuKong's Primal Fury shouldn't receive the mod benefits of Body Count nor Blood Rush. (I assume Weeping Wounds and Maiming Strike don't work either)

I feel like people just complain too much. Excal/Valkyr/Wukong not getting buffed because of Body Count and Blood Rush being a big deal? As if. They already nuke everything down faster than it matters using their melee, they shouldn't be given something to operate at an even more OP rate. Hysteria not as good as given credit for? When Hysteria can cut apart a level 120 heavy gunner with little to no issue at all, it's fine/doesn't need a buff. The important part is that you are INVINCIBLE. Who cares how much damage you do when you just CAN'T die? Energy regen is cut, sure, but you can still get pickups which are plenty common. Excalibur's Exalted blade not getting a benefit from it, sad, but unwarranted for the buff. You can solo just about anything with a rank 1 Life Strike, decently modded melee weapon and some duration/efficiency. It really doesn't matter too much. As for Wukong, stop whining. True immortality while using a gun? Give it a rest. Overall, these two new mods are very needed, and I agree, the combo extender should be default for melee weapons while offering a little longer to actually make them viable. Weapons like the Tonkor and Sancti Tigris just can't be compared to though even with this for melee.

WuKong is not actual Immortality... Magnetic Proc renders him in Bleedout Unlike Hysteria.

(Shock Eximus(Corpus/Corrupted) that do Magnetic Aura on enemies within 5m so could be considered an issue pertaining to Melee rather than Ranged Guns with Defy)

As for comparison against Tonkor or Sancti Tigris...if the starting enemies are level 90+ and fully Armored (No CP) than Ultimate Melee Abilities especially paired with Naramon Passives surpass those Guns.

(All 3 : Hysteria, Primal Fury, Exalted Blade..have equal damage distribution of I/P/S on physical attacks...the Slash Bleed Proc can be applied AoE and the Bleed Proc DoT grows with both melee multiplier and 400% Stealth multiplier allowing Procs to be applied and then boosted.

Boosting Bleed Proc with CloudWalker

Boosting Bleed Proc with Radial Blind

Shadowstep makes it easier for Bleed Procs to already have 400% modifier.

Compared to normal content - Sancti Tigris and Tonkor are easier to apply fatal damage to the lower health enemies.

(Much like World on Fire being OP on star-chart but not vaporising fully Armored lvel 90+ enemies)

Edited January 29, 2016 by (PS4)MrNishi

[Otaiken]

Blood Rush is fine. As are other mods that make use of combo counter.

 

Body Count however is not. Let's be real here, it absolutely IS a bandaid. The second issue here is the general stat-ification of game mechanics. Instead of encouraging good play (that is being fast, good awareness and having good positioning) this turns counter into yet another stat.

By default it's too short to encourage anything. With maxed Body Count it's so long that you don't have to really worry about it ever again.

 

So that turns the entire combo counter into a stat check. A glorified switch -> too short/never have to worry again. I despise that, it's a bad game design.

 

To be honest the increasing amount of hoops you need to jump through to make melee enjoyable (forget viable) is slowly converting me to guns entirely. First you need decent weapon, then you have the stance bs we have to go through, then modding and worries about how you're gonna stay alive... so you need a specific frame setup and so on and so on. And now this.

 

I'm starting to think that melee is supposed to be a gimmick and a niche choice. Which frame would you say is the "gun frame"? What frame is it that you should play to be viable with guns at high level? Why is it okay having to ask that question with melee?

Edited January 29, 2016 by LocoWithGun

[Epsik-kun]

Body Count however is not. Let's be real here, it absolutely IS a bandaid.

Bandaid or not, it ended up working in a quite interesting way.

 

Even maxed out Body Count will still require you to alter your playstile, as in majority of missions you'll face some difficulties with sustaining a a single combo. And while x1.5 and x2 multipliers always affected melee, x3 and x4 usually did not - this is what you are getting with Body Count.

And the whole new melee mod combo makes things even more fun. As you willingly cut your initial damage severely (by sacrificing 5 mod slots exclusively for crit mods) but in return you'll get a much higher boost starting around x3 combo multiplier. It is fun, it brings severe diversity in melee gameplay and it feels nothing like regular melee.

Also, due to its design, it has severe drawbacks in every mission but Survival. But, hey, it's Survival.

[(PSN)MonkeysUnkle1]

How can melee mods be op when melee was inherently vastly inferior in every way to ranged weapons? If anything this just brings melee closer in line to those others, so I say good job DE.

 

As for valkyr/excalibur/wukong complaints, they're completely baseless. A few people have said that some are complaining because of power creep. The people who play these warframes are complaining because something is getting buffed that doesn't benefit their preferred playstyle. They conveniently forget that each of their favourite frames were either buffed to be absolute top tier, or started off there, and are upset that their already overpowered builds can't trivialize the game even further. Just like the peacemaker complainers, I have to ask why you play the game when you clearly don't want to?

 

 

I'm starting to think that melee is supposed to be a gimmick and a niche choice. Which frame would you say is the "gun frame"? What frame is it that you should play to be viable with guns at high level? Why is it okay having to ask that question with melee?

 

 

Melee apparently was always supposed to be a gimmick, which makes absolutely no sense. Why include it at all? I seem to recall at one point they said they had no plans, nor did they ever have plans in the past to actually make melee a viable alternative to guns.

Edited February 7, 2016 by (PS4)MonkeysUnkle1

[tnccs215]

Bandaid or not, it ended up working in a quite interesting way.

Even maxed out Body Count will still require you to alter your playstile, as in majority of missions you'll face some difficulties with sustaining a a single combo. And while x1.5 and x2 multipliers always affected melee, x3 and x4 usually did not - this is what you are getting with Body Count.

And the whole new melee mod combo makes things even more fun. As you willingly cut your initial damage severely (by sacrificing 5 mod slots exclusively for crit mods) but in return you'll get a much higher boost starting around x3 combo multiplier. It is fun, it brings severe diversity in melee gameplay and it feels nothing like regular melee.

Also, due to its design, it has severe drawbacks in every mission but Survival. But, hey, it's Survival.

Maybe. However, it also increases the gap between crit and non-crit melee-- a gap that, due to berserker, was already deep. Granted, almost every weapon can become a crit weapon with bloodrush. However, those 5% crit chance weapons, that already had dubious usefulness, just became obsolete.

And, regarding body count, it is a great mod. It finally gives melee some boost, and it gives the combo counter some raison d'étre. It is a great mod.

Indeed, it is a great mod like pressure point. Or Serration. Or Point Blank...

You see the point? Body count IS a fundamental mod. Everyone that has it is using it on her/his melee. And while we have to thank DE for making it common-- god knows its value if it was rare-- it shouldn't even drop from an assassin, much less an event one!

To be honest, it shouldn't even exist! It should already be default! The risk that one takes, just by using melee, justifies such a long combo counter. At least, as melee weapons are of now.

But oh, well. I don't know how long it will take until we see this mods again, so I'm gonna save the extras I got and give it for free to newbies. Such a fundamental mod should be obtainable for free.

[Virdigo]

Loki with Gram anyone?  so soon the noobs forget one of the most powerful forces in the early game, only thing more powerful was acrid but it lacked aoe.  For those who didn't play or just didn't know, they nerfed the ease of jump attacks, you know having to look straight down to do them now is almost impossible at expert speeds without macro assist, anyways Gram originally had a huge AOE slam, so take loki invis jump slam would kill all trash in about a 15m radius with reach heavies could be cleared with a quick spin attack as you moved to the next group.  So as far as melee never being viable thats a straight out lie because almost everything they've done is to nerf that old attack style, from poison auras to gimp glass cannon loki to the gimping of jump attacks to forcing finishing animations on almost everything with a pulse.  Guess my point is I don't understand why people hold out 2-3 guns that have become the standard fair and say guns are more powerful when they never were before tonkor and penta.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Virdigo