Argon Scope Is Just A Fad (With Numbers)

[Capetoider]

TLDR: Argon Scope is bad and you should feel bad about using it. And, if you have to choose, go with Bladed Rounds!

 

Yellow border don't make it better, just harder to get and easier to be a FAD, easier to get to stupid prices...

 

 

 

I did got the Argon Scope, tried a bit and didn't like at all... 

 

Big numbers are good and nice, but you should see the overall...

 

 

I'll take Soma as an Example:

 

With Just 4 mods and counting as base damage 100 with this setup (better to calc with)

 

The average is (Crit Chance X Mod Damage X Crit Damage)+((1-Crit Chance)*Mod Damage)

 

Now let's use some standard Mods to see...

(I know Heavy Cal is not optimal in the Soma, because of accuracy, but it's there to see, BTW, yes, if serration is already in, just about 62% increase on base)

 

Let's go full ret*** Crit

 

The math when it goes above 100% is a little different.

I'm using: ((2 - Crit Chance) X Crit Damage X Mod Damage)+((Crit Chance - 1) X ((Crit Damage X 2) -1) X Mod Damage)

(Notes: The red crit formula is from the wiki. / I use (2-Crit Chance) Because above 100% what is not red crit will be a crit, thus, the rest of the chance is the red crit (Crit Chance -1) )

 

       

(Bad right?)

 

Now let's try to max this shall we?

(hm... the damage is good... but only 1 Element?)

Let's try taking out Heavy Cal for another element

(Ok, not too much loss, a nice combination of elements, ideal set up?)

But there is one problem!

DPS is not everything... and less than that you can translate on numbers...

 

I was playing around with only 4 slots, if you make Argon+Bladed a "must" you can only play around with 2 slots... sure... the damage is good... and you would have a nice proc in there... but...

 

Shred for example: do you want more damage against only one? Or a little less against a bunch of them? It's Single X AOE

Or any other mod you may want to squeeze in...

 

Hm... but what to take off?

 

Bladed is the star! Not the Argon... a yellow border means nothing!

 

Just for fun, other calculations:

Some of you may be wondering... then... what if I want only 1 Element?

Well.. it's your call, here's the math:

 

You would be better sticking to Bladed + 2x 90%

 

 

Also!

 

Don't forget:

Both You Have to Keep Aiming to get the Bonus

Argon Scope - On Headshot

Bladed Rounds - On Kill

 

Killing is a lot easier than having to headshot some units... (although you should be aiming for the head anyways...)

[Nova-Gamer]

So is it a bad thing I have both of these on my soma prime?

[Slaviar]

I had a feeling it's not good the moment I've seen description

[leocww]

I agree that Bladed Rounds is better than Argon Scope, on paper.

 

But in real life practice, I slap on Argon Scope when red crit is achievable after using so, otherwise Bladed Rounds is my go-to choice.

 

And it's better to use both, IF only there are slots left for putting those mods.

[[DE]Momaw]

Sniper rifles, my friend.

 

When a crit head shot kills and a non-crit head shot doesn't, you need that extra chance in order for your sniper rifle to be reliable and consistent.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Argon Scope on Rakta Cernos begs to differ. With stealth bonus as well you can red crit all day with big numbers. Even without it the red crits are comparable in damage to Dread and you have the Syndicate viral proc as well.

[Eminem2420]

So, a player should feel bad about using Argon Scope? Yeah, whatever. Focus on yourself instead of worrying about what other people are using.

[BubblesTheBlob]

One small thing, Soma Prime actually doesn't lose much usability with Heavy Caliber's -accuracy. Most fully-automatic weapons suffer very little from using that mod. It's mostly the weapons that demand high-accuracy (like semi-autos, snipers, and bows) that can lose a lot of effectiveness due to them generally being used at long range.

 

I don't know if I personally will be using Bladed Rounds or Argon scope on my Soma Prime, but I might try out a few builds with it to see if I can get the paper DPS above ~27k (assuming all bodyshots). Also note that critical-headshot will double the damage of the critical hit even after the doubled damage from the headshot itself.

 

It's also worth noting that red crits are awesome, but not always worth losing other mods over. I've seen (for example) melee builds that try to use Blood Rush to get red crits, but while they're hitting 8k red on a Galatine, I'm hitting 14k yellow with the same combo multipliers. It's a delicate balance.

 

And what Momaw said, snipers will definitely be reaping the benefits of both of these mods.

Edited February 4, 2016 by MrBubbleSS

[Valkyrion]

So, a player should feel bad about using Argon Scope? Yeah, whatever. Focus on yourself instead of worrying about what other people are using.

Oh the irony

[Eminem2420]

Oh the irony

What irony?

[Autongnosis]

Lack of mod slots means that you generally have only one slot to play with.

On high-end bows for instance, you need your basic mods (serration, split chamber, point strike, vital sense, one elemental combo). Then firerate for the charge time - unless you're using the Rakta Cernos. You're left with a single free slot at that point. And since bows other than the Rakta already have 100+% crit chance, building further up has diminishing returns (since the ration of crit over non crit is higher than the one of redcrit over crit), and you're better off building for crit damage.

The Rakta has two viable max-damage setups. The first one, which i use, is for a skirmishing style, and uses Avenger+Bladed Rounds+Heavy Caliber. But the version with Avenger+Argon Scope+Bladed Rounds, that works for a sniping style, is still very viable. It deals less average damage but is more consistent on its redcrits (17.5% chance in the HC build vs 64.75% chance in the AS build). And doesn't lose effective range. That's down to playstyle though - at the range i use bows i have no issues with accuracy losses, some players who play them differently will not agree :)

Snipers on the other hand, have the dire need of punchhtrough mods (or reload speed mods). That leaves them with the same problem bows have. Only at that point you might be better off using Argon if you can keep the bonus going - only problem with that is that if we're talking about optimal setups, you're again better off slotting a Bladed Rounds and then using Arcane Avenger to raise the crit chance to near 100% (most snipers get 97.5%).

The only exception to that is the Lanka with its innate punchthrough - that until you realise Lanka needs +firerate to get the charge to manageable levels.

In the sniper category, despite being labeled a rifle, i lump basically the o e exception other than the Rakta Cernos: Latron Prime. That gun has a wonderful crit multiplier, but it's really unreliable. On that gun i can see the merits of going Avenger+Argon Scope for a total of 87.75% crit chance. Then again, Bladed Rounds for Avenger works as well - still gets you to 67.5% crit chance with a humongous 8.5x crit dmg. In this peculiar case though, there are a lot of merits ti having mor reliability.

Fully auto weapons have the same problem in a different form. They need either punchthrough (for maximum effective damage) or ammo mutation (for sustainability). And again, Bladed Rounds+Avenger is the better choice. Particularly cause Avenger is a flat boost and thus works really well also with 20% (+30% vs +27%), 15% (+30% vs +20.25%) or 10% (+30% vs +13.5%) crit chance weapons, where Argon Scope's boost would be really not that worth it.

Bottom line is - Argon Scope will probably be invaluable when the base damage and multishot mod rework hits us. As of now, most of the time you don't have enough slots to fit it unless you lose another core aspect of your build and/or break your elemental combo, which us a desperately bad idea.

Just a note on Avenger: i have had many people saying that Avenger (and generally Arcanes) are Trial stuff and not many people have it/have access to it. Well, duh. We're talking about maximum damage, Avenger is a staple on all crit builds for that.

EDIT: fun typo when you write multiS#&$ instead of multishot. Corrected .-.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Autongnosis

[Capetoider]

So, a player should feel bad about using Argon Scope? Yeah, whatever. Focus on yourself instead of worrying about what other people are using.

Never seeing the Zoidberg Meme is bad and you should feel bad about it. ;D

 

 

I think Autongnosis said valid points, as did someothers, but then again to resume... it's about Single X AOE damage... 

 

 

Just don't go thinking about Argon Scope is a "new" Serration and just put it anywhere, just because.

[Urdillo]

Thanks for the information, all those calculations will help much when thinking about including those mods ;)

I already suspected that Argon Scope could work for some weapons, but definitely will not be a mandatory mod.

 

So, a player should feel bad about using Argon Scope? Yeah, whatever. Focus on yourself instead of worrying about what other people are using.

 

True. Anyone should feel bad for having a preference in modding.

But hey, this person just shared with the community his work on the effects of new mods. He's doing us a favor sharing this knowledge (that we can use or not), so is fine that he care for other people.

[OniGanon]

Isn't the entire point of Argon Scope to increase the chances of getting quadruple damage critical headshots?

Edited February 4, 2016 by OniGanon

[PrVonTuckIII]

Who cares? I just have it as plat reserves for when I need it. :D

[ThorienKELL]

So, a player should feel bad about using Argon Scope? Yeah, whatever. Focus on yourself instead of worrying about what other people are using.

So guy is trying to educate you and this is your answer? This is best you can do? Really?

 

To OP - Ty for this - gj, but this answers just part of questions and it's not fit for all situations. I'm not sure if I understood all but here are some conclusions that I draw, from this and in general;

 

Weapons with very high crit chance profit less from argon. If you go over 100% it's a "waste"

 

Argon effectiveness depends on weapon type as well, high powered, single shot, accurate weapons that rely on headcrits anyway will have better use for argon.

 

Argon effectiveness also depends from skill of each player. This is not mod for everyone, in most cases.

 

Same thing for frame type. Invisible snipers will profit more. 

 

Argon can push weapons that are not crit weapons on crit valid area, explosive weapons too.

 

Headshots happen far less often and are far less reliable then people tend to think. I had even bladed combo running out fairly frequently on well populated maps.

Edited February 4, 2016 by ThorienKELL

[Inarticulate]

Soma Prime relative to base damage per bullet without critical hits.

 

Base build (my build):

Serration, Split Chamber, Shred, Point Strike, Vital Sense, 3 90% elementals: 126x body, 492x head. (+Punch-through)

 

Serration, Split Chamber, Shred, Point Strike, Vital Sense, Argon Scope, 2 90% elementals: 137x (+9%) body, 537x head (+11%). (+Punch-through)

 

Serration, Split Chamber, Shred, Point Strike, Vital Sense, Bladed Rounds, 2 90% elementals: 145x (+15%) body, 570x (+16%) head. (+Punch-through)

 

Serration, Split Chamber, Point Strike, Vital Sense, Argon Scope, Bladed Rounds, 2 90% elementals: 164x (+30%) body, 656x (+33%) head.

[osuman]

So, a player should feel bad about using Argon Scope? Yeah, whatever. Focus on yourself instead of worrying about what other people are using.

So guy is trying to educate you and this is your answer? This is best you can do? Really?

He is probably one of those nova players that puts "as much strength as possible" for mp xD

[FoxFX]

Keep the Argon Scope and these Acolyte Mods. [DE] has mentioned in past Devstreams of changes to the multishot mod and Weapon damage increasing with the Weapon's rank.

 

In this scenario, mods like Serration that give flat damage bonuses could be possibly removed in a future update.

 

However, that is also up to [DE] to decide.

[(PSN)lhbuch]

How about weapons with AOe damage like Tonkor and Synoid Simulor? Argon Scope or Bladed rounds?

[ThorienKELL]

They both work. On low crit damage i would go with argon, on higher /over 80, with bladed.

Edited February 5, 2016 by ThorienKELL

[Autongnosis]

^ This. Although i personally wouldn't use AS on Synmulor, the boost is too low tbh. But then again, mostly personal preference.

[DrBorris]

You forgot about head shot crits (8x rather than 4x). If you just spray and pray with weapon, sure, you are correct. However if you aim for the head crits become much more powerful.