[DE]Grzegorz Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Obviously caused by certain issues with Razorback (cougheverything but artistic design cough). Why do certain enemies outright ignore the rules? I mean, to make a balanced game that's fun to play and feels fair, both sides of the conflict need to follow the same set of rules, while in Warframe there's a handful of enemies that are either very specific exceptions or simply ignore the rules. e.g. Mutalist MOA introduced a few updates back, that due to their animation issues aren't just able to move, but quickly teleport around the room while ignoring any solid obstacles, it isn't uncommon to see one of these buggers to simply fly through the ceiling and appear behind the player. Or something more actual, the hot topic of the week, Razorback. This enemy would be completely fine in 2013 where Trinity resulted in 30s of complete immortality with a single press of a button, since then this has been changed to damage reduction equal to health lost (on top of variable health gain), while enemies simply hide behind anti-everything shield for indefinite amounts of time. Even the cheap lock-on Ancient hooks that can be shot when knocked down (while player can only control the camera until the character stands up). There are more examples to this, obviously, though these few I remember from the top of my head. And you guys? Other unfair events that happen on daily basis? Another point of view on the issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlazerEraser Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 How is the event unfair? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arenzo4 Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Personally i dont see it as much of an issue, in this kind of game where we slaughter hordes of enemies and manipulate them to our liking, enemies have to do bullS#&$ things to give us any sort of "challenge" and alot of people want said "challenge" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuestenjung Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Valkyr, Rhinos iron skin, Nezha´s warding Halo, Wukong, they all have damage immunity. And the warframes have so many abilities that the enemies don´t have, so with your reason we shouldn´t have them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeiroth Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Only thing I dislike about this guy is that fact that explosives are broken in this game. And since this guy has enough explosives on him to make even the Bombards jelly, I'd say that a fix for the way explosives work would greatly help... F*** that homing missile nonsense... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceColdHawk Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Sorry Mo but i can't agree with you there. Bosses should be Bosses and not another random enemy with more hp and damage despite still getting insta-rekt. It's nice to have a boss where you have to do more than just unload your bullets in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ailith Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) How is the event unfair? The Razorback is 100% immune to damage, regardless of what weapon we use. Hack a Bursa though and it somehow has enough firepower to damage and stun the thing. What is that Bursa using? Why doesn't it instantly one-shot everything in existence? Why don't the Tenno, crazy-powerful magical ninjas, not have such a weapon in their arsenal?? Enemies that are completely immune to damage is lazy design. I don't care if it has some mechanic that circumvents that invincibility, you should be able to kill anything with enough bullets (a reasonable amount of bullets, mind you). End of story. You want a genuinely engaging boss battle? Add armor plates that we can knock off to deal more damage, give the a.i. legitimate tactics to use that we can learn and exploit, stop making everyone and their kubrow immune to our unexplained, mystical space powers. Edited February 12, 2016 by Ailith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceColdHawk Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 The Razorback is 100% immune to damage, regardless of what weapon we use. Hack a Bursa though and it somehow has enough firepower to damage and stun the thing. What is that Bursa using? Why doesn't it instantly one-shot everything in existence? Why don't the Tenno, crazy-powerful magical ninjas, not have such a weapon in their arsenal?? Enemies that are completely immune to damage is lazy design. I don't care if it has some mechanic that circumvents that invincibility, you should be able to kill anything with enough bullets (a reasonable amount of bullets, mind you). End of story. Not in a game where 1 bullet could equal the power of an atom bomb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ailith Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) Not in a game where 1 bullet could equal the power of an atom bomb. That bullet wouldn't need the power of a nuke if enemies weren't infinitely spongier bullet sponges. Edited February 12, 2016 by Ailith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceColdHawk Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 That bullet wouldn't need the power of a nuke if enemies weren't infinitely spongier bullet sponges. Ofc it doesn't need. There is lots of overkilling involved. I'm just saying that bosses that can just easily get shot down are nothing more than enhanced bombards. Just shooting targets. You seem to like them, we already have enough of them. But diversity doesn't hurt. Especially when you can have a boss where multiple actions are needed to bring him down. THAT is a "Boss". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvid Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 AI War: Fleet Command taught me one thing: Just because an enemy doesn't follow your rules, doesn't make it unfair. If an enemy has a set of rules that it consistently follows, it is fair. It would only be unfair if it broke its own rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kai_Shiba Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 The Razorback is 100% immune to damage, regardless of what weapon we use. Hack a Bursa though and it somehow has enough firepower to damage and stun the thing. What is that Bursa using? Why doesn't it instantly one-shot everything in existence? Why don't the Tenno, crazy-powerful magical ninjas, not have such a weapon in their arsenal?? Enemies that are completely immune to damage is lazy design. I don't care if it has some mechanic that circumvents that invincibility, you should be able to kill anything with enough bullets (a reasonable amount of bullets, mind you). End of story. You want a genuinely engaging boss battle? Add armor plates that we can knock off to deal more damage, give the a.i. legitimate tactics to use that we can learn and exploit, stop making everyone and their kubrow immune to our unexplained, mystical space powers. There are other bosses in other games that have this immunity and have a way to bypass that immunity. It's not lazy design by any margin, it's different and unique to that boss. What is lazy is a boss that can be killed easily with just a few bullets but they're just bullet sponges. What a unique boss.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToxicTroublermaker Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 The Razorback is 100% immune to damage, regardless of what weapon we use. Hack a Bursa though and it somehow has enough firepower to damage and stun the thing. What is that Bursa using? Why doesn't it instantly one-shot everything in existence? Why don't the Tenno, crazy-powerful magical ninjas, not have such a weapon in their arsenal?? You..... you realize that the Bursa takes down his shields so you can shoot him right? You're supposed to shoot Razorback when he stumbles from the Bursa weakening him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noabettiet Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Personally i would love to see that ancient hook, removed. Well, to be blunt, all hooks are broken. At least MOAs knockdown stomp can be avoided if you are touching the ground, would be great if we could just also avoid aimbot hooks. The Razorback is 100% immune to damage, regardless of what weapon we use. Hack a Bursa though and it somehow has enough firepower to damage and stun the thing. What is that Bursa using? Why doesn't it instantly one-shot everything in existence? Why don't the Tenno, crazy-powerful magical ninjas, not have such a weapon in their arsenal?? Enemies that are completely immune to damage is lazy design. I don't care if it has some mechanic that circumvents that invincibility, you should be able to kill anything with enough bullets (a reasonable amount of bullets, mind you). End of story. You want a genuinely engaging boss battle? Add armor plates that we can knock off to deal more damage, give the a.i. legitimate tactics to use that we can learn and exploit, stop making everyone and their kubrow immune to our unexplained, mystical space powers. The unexplained, mystical space powers, or in this case, fictional logic in video-games, is often a key factor in making games fun. In contrast with the real world, a fictional one can bend reality in order to deliver the best experience to us (players). In which, it did with this boss. It has been months since we found a boss that left the majority of players with an actual challenge that doesn't include mindlessly pressing your "kill button". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[DE]Grzegorz Posted February 12, 2016 Author Share Posted February 12, 2016 How is the event unfair? It's about as unfair to us as perma immortality Trin was before Blessing was changed. Enemies don't follow the rules, most mechanics can be described as cheap (instakills, lockons, ignore defence) or inconsistent (requiring AI to force AI into a different state...) Personally i dont see it as much of an issue, in this kind of game where we slaughter hordes of enemies and manipulate them to our liking, enemies have to do bullS#&$ things to give us any sort of "challenge" and alot of people want said "challenge" There's challenging content without resorting to bullS#&$ solutions. Valkyr, Rhinos iron skin, Nezha´s warding Halo, Wukong, they all have damage immunity. And the warframes have so many abilities that the enemies don´t have, so with your reason we shouldn´t have them. None of which can indefinitely tank infinite amounts of damage, Valkyr and Wukong will eventually run out of energy, Rhino and Nezha have only thousands of HP as a buffer. Enemies? None of these issues. AI War: Fleet Command taught me one thing: Just because an enemy doesn't follow your rules, doesn't make it unfair. If an enemy has a set of rules that it consistently follows, it is fair. It would only be unfair if it broke its own rules. This is a pretty good response to this claim. Sorry Mo but i can't agree with you there. Bosses should be Bosses and not another random enemy with more hp and damage despite still getting insta-rekt. It's nice to have a boss where you have to do more than just unload your bullets in. There are different solutions than number inflation or resorting to cheap, inconsistent or otherwise poorly explained mechanics. Not in a game where 1 bullet could equal the power of an atom bomb. As said before, only because that atom bombs quickly start to do nothing but tickling enemies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceColdHawk Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 So, let me ask you. What boss in this game do you like? According to your reasonings, there are only bosses that are cheap and lazy designed or are just shooting targets....i mean 1-hit preys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfTitan Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 I don't agree. If raw damage output could win you the tactical alert, then it wouldn't be a tactical alert. The caps in place make it fairer for newcomers to play the event. Therfore, newcomers and veterans are on more of an equal sitting in fighting the boss. The alert promotes skill and thinking, not damage. And I like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)robotwars7 Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 all this talk of unfairness... Kela is waiting to make you cry lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[DE]Grzegorz Posted February 12, 2016 Author Share Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) So, let me ask you. What boss in this game do you like? According to your reasonings, there are only bosses that are cheap and lazy designed or are just shooting targets....i mean 1-hit preys. Out of all? Jackal works quite consistently, Vor in any form is quite decent, original Alad V isn't too bad. Buffed up fodder like the Sarge and Kela are obviously out of question, though they too have a bunch of mechanics that may be slightly inconsistent and annoying but not as aggravating as what I'm witnessing now. Every other boss is pretty much based on invincibility phases that last as long as the AI wants it to because it either doesn't wear off at all, or they don't show their weakspot nearly enough. all this talk of unfairness... Kela is waiting to make you cry lol. Can't wait for another weird mix of invincibility phases/cutscenes like current Tyl Regor. Edited February 12, 2016 by Mofixil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaosdreamer Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 The Razorback is 100% immune to damage, regardless of what weapon we use. Hack a Bursa though and it somehow has enough firepower to damage and stun the thing. What is that Bursa using? Why doesn't it instantly one-shot everything in existence? Why don't the Tenno, crazy-powerful magical ninjas, not have such a weapon in their arsenal?? Enemies that are completely immune to damage is lazy design. I don't care if it has some mechanic that circumvents that invincibility, you should be able to kill anything with enough bullets (a reasonable amount of bullets, mind you). End of story. You want a genuinely engaging boss battle? Add armor plates that we can knock off to deal more damage, give the a.i. legitimate tactics to use that we can learn and exploit, stop making everyone and their kubrow immune to our unexplained, mystical space powers. Lazy way ? it is even worst since this is just a copy and upgraded boss of some games that I played , If you guys don't mind checking Final Fantasy 8 with the spider attack , is basicly same thing just more exploding stuff and imminuty to everything that not challenge , just need to wait and wait until he bow to us... that actually boring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gale47 Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Lazy way ? it is even worst since this is just a copy and upgraded boss of some games that I played , If you guys don't mind checking Final Fantasy 8 with the spider attack , is basicly same thing just more exploding stuff and imminuty to everything that not challenge , just need to wait and wait until he bow to us... that actually boring Have you actually played the boss? There's absolutely no waiting involved unless you're being carried by some amazing players. Evading his attacks has been pretty cool for the people in my clan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeHACKtivate Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 I thought he was fun; had to play as a team, survive, and on top of that the RNG wasn't sky high as I thought it would be to get the puncture modsReally only slightly feels drawn out in endurance, but... its endurance lol, its supposed to be that way (To me) He didn't feel unfair at all, and really the only unfair events so far are the ones with cluttered reward pools where the only "good" rewards are abysmally low, but mechanic wise, the events were fun and fair to me. (Of course the grind is optional but that's my two cents about it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10thdivine Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Out of all? Jackal works quite consistently, Vor in any form is quite decent, original Alad V isn't too bad. Buffed up fodder like the Sarge and Kela are obviously out of question, though they too have a bunch of mechanics that may be slightly inconsistent and annoying but not as aggravating as what I'm witnessing now. Every other boss is pretty much based on invincibility phases that last as long as the AI wants it to because it either doesn't wear off at all, or they don't show their weakspot nearly enough. Can't wait for another weird mix of invincibility phases/cutscenes like current Tyl Regor. Jackal,Vor and Alad,all can be one shotted,how is that good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DrakoVongola96 Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Obviously caused by certain issues with Razorback (cougheverything but artistic design cough). Why do certain enemies outright ignore the rules? I mean, to make a balanced game that's fun to play and feels fair, both sides of the conflict need to follow the same set of rules Well that's just not true at all. AI in games are rarely held to the exact same ruleset as you. Out of all? Jackal works quite consistently, Vor in any form is quite decent, original Alad V isn't too bad. So in other words just any boss where the strategy boils down to "Mash the shoot button and occasionally your strongest ability" then? We're too strong for bosses like that to give any challenge, hell I've never actually even seen what Corrupted Vor looks like because he dies less than a second after spawning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AM-Bunny Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 You think those mechanics are unfair, imagine what the Grineer are saying about us when we do Draco. "WTF Excalibur can kill us all instantly in one hit, and we can't even shoot them cuz of that Snowglobe! It's so unfair!!" Road runs both way, and there's no rule that enemies have to be defenseless infants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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