Steps to balance without losing Warframe's "feel"

[Xzorn]

36 minutes ago, Mr.Lube said:

The Global effects are there to force the player out of the mission, but I do agree that they shouldn't be implemented in a cheesy way. Maybe something like reduced shields, fog, higher density of elite enemy types, doubled mob spawns. 

Diminishing returns would only take effect on your next ability cast. The DRs would not effect other players' abilities. As for abilities with damage and CC, I feel like the DR should be applied to the ability as a whole, including the damage. So for each consecutive cast on an enemy, your damage will be reduced. This however would only work if damage scaled with enemy level, so players have to save the perfect time to nuke the room with spectacular results and ultimates can feel like ultimates again.

Hmm... I haven't seen DR like that, it's kinda like a CD but not.

It would work better than typical DR at least. I think I'd enjoy that setup.

[Mr.Lube]

Its basically a loophole around the "no cooldowns" mentality that DE has.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

On 2/26/2016 at 4:14 AM, DiabolusUrsus said:

1. Nerf the Fleeting Expertise + Streamline combo. This stops the spam-casting.
2. Apply a scaling debuff to CC abilities that increases with enemy level past a specified maximum level for balanced content.
3. Apply a scaling increase to the accuracy of enemy responses to detection triggers for invisibility that follows the same rules as step 2.
4. Balance Warframes and weaponry so that they start to struggle near the level cap. 

Congratulations, you have now created an iteration of Warframe where CC frames and damage frames start to struggle in the same place, and the CC meta - while still arguably existent - no longer impinges on the freedom of more relaxed playstyles at end-game levels. 

I don't use fleeting expertise+ streamline. *looks down at feet, squirming*... I use rage...and equilibrium with no regard to armor because it's a silly non important game mechanic, and I bleed everywhere and spam all my powers...Muah ha ha ha!!! *maniacal laughter as the mental patient runs down the hall in their hospital gown*

[chuckdm]

On 2/26/2016 at 4:14 AM, DiabolusUrsus said:

1. Nerf the Fleeting Expertise + Streamline combo. This stops the spam-casting.
2. Apply a scaling debuff to CC abilities that increases with enemy level past a specified maximum level for balanced content.
3. Apply a scaling increase to the accuracy of enemy responses to detection triggers for invisibility that follows the same rules as step 2.
4. Balance Warframes and weaponry so that they start to struggle near the level cap. 

Congratulations, you have now created an iteration of Warframe where CC frames and damage frames start to struggle in the same place, and the CC meta - while still arguably existent - no longer impinges on the freedom of more relaxed playstyles at end-game levels. 

 

I agree with 2, 3, and 4, and with basically everything OP said.

Do NOT touch my Fleeting Expertise.  It is already balanced because it totally kills duration and I have to run a maxed Prime Continuity just to get it back over 100%, and that requires forma-ing in a V slot on most frames.  That is more than enough counter-balance already.

The fact that someone can spam Pull or Sonic Boom or whatever it is in their 2 hour T4 Survival does not negate the fact that I REQUIRE Fleeting Expertise for my Infested Defense Fire Chroma Effigy build, my Saryn build, or any other build I have.

Your 2 and 3 changes do enough.  Nerfing efficiency is not a solution to anything, ever, period.

[Radjehuty]

I'm relatively new to the game playing only about 6 months, but I really didn't feel too much of a problem with balance because it didn't feel important to me. I just felt that certain frames were better at doing certain missions than others and that's cool to be able to switch. I'm not sure that if I had a ton of frames that were all equivalent that the game would be as interesting because I would end up sticking to one frame for every mission. I actually like tailoring my playstyle using a different frame depending on what I wanted to do. Personally, I think the answer to any balance problems would be to create MORE endless missions. Like an Endless spy mission that keeps generating additions to a map layout with new puzzles to figure out with less emphasis on requiring huge damage and more on a warframe's natural abilities or something. Maybe different types of endless defense missions where monsters won't attack you, but you have to protect something fragile and you're rewarded based on how far you get rather than extracting the moment it gets too difficult. How about endless boss fights like an arena (Think brawlers guild) where you or a team fight bosses one at a time with increasing scaling based on how successful you are and how many people in your squad. How about adding playstyle modes that create competitions within squads where your squad has to do an exterminate mission, but rewards are higher for the player that does the most stealth kills?

I think creating creating more missions that might entice the player to think will give more choices to those who just want an all-out hack and slash style we're used to now with mass CCing, and those of us that get bored with that and decide to do more puzzle-type games that are less dependent on gear and more warframe-ability focused encounters.

Just a thought

[Mr.Lube]

1 hour ago, chuckdm said:

 

I agree with 2, 3, and 4, and with basically everything OP said.

Do NOT touch my Fleeting Expertise.  It is already balanced because it totally kills duration and I have to run a maxed Prime Continuity just to get it back over 100%, and that requires forma-ing in a V slot on most frames.  That is more than enough counter-balance already.

The fact that someone can spam Pull or Sonic Boom or whatever it is in their 2 hour T4 Survival does not negate the fact that I REQUIRE Fleeting Expertise for my Infested Defense Fire Chroma Effigy build, my Saryn build, or any other build I have.

Your 2 and 3 changes do enough.  Nerfing efficiency is not a solution to anything, ever, period.

Fleeting is balanced on some frames, but on others there is basically no drawback which makes it a flawed and broken mod.  The fact that you require fleeting in your build is a sign of content being balanced around a broken feature that DE is too afraid to nerf or change.

Corrupted and Primed mods in general were a mistake in my opinion.

[chuckdm]

10 hours ago, Mr.Lube said:

Fleeting is balanced on some frames, but on others there is basically no drawback which makes it a flawed and broken mod.  The fact that you require fleeting in your build is a sign of content being balanced around a broken feature that DE is too afraid to nerf or change.

Corrupted and Primed mods in general were a mistake in my opinion.

You may be right, but other than Mag, where almost everyone can agree that Bullet Attractor is "meh" at best and every other ability has no downside from extremely low duration, what other frame has no drawback with, say, 50% or less duration?

I'm totally drawing a blank here.  There is almost certainly at least 1 or 2 other frames where this is true, but I can't name any, and I own every frame in the game.

I'm not saying there aren't some BUILDS where negative duration is ignorable.  I'm saying that for every frame (again, besides Mag) with a good, usable build where duration doesn't really matter, there's an equally good, usable build that requires AT LEAST 80% or better duration.

So, again, I am not content to nerf all my builds just so that someone can't spam Pull in their 2 hour T4 survival.

The diminishing returns idea that DiablosUrsus had at #2 is basically the way that very other game does this.  See WoW, TERA, etc.  Of course, all of those games can balance around a set level cap, too, and that's the other half of the equation that's missing in Warframe.  Still, you can use any number of mana recovery tricks in WoW to cast spells non-stop for a 40 minute raid and nobody who's reasonable there is calling that broken.  (Ok, I haven't played WoW since Cata, but nobody was back then.  I haven't checked since.)

And let's keep this in mind: if the goal is to put damage frames on par with CC frames, then nerfing efficiency hurts BOTH.  In fact, it hurts damage frames MORE than CC frames.  Bladestorm, Molecular Prime, Stomp, basically the vast majority of high-damage abilities are all 100 energy cost, while Pull, Sonic Boom, etc, are all 25 energy cost.  9Some are 50, but most are 25.)  Other than Vortex I can't name any CC powers that are 100 cost.  Nerfing efficiency would make the problem WORSE, not better.

Besides that, the idea behind corrupted mods was solid.  Like most other things in Warframe, it made perfect sense at the time.  Also like most things that are more than a year old, it needs a re-balance that hasn't happened yet.  In fact, the DAY that Primed Flow (or whichever Primed mod was first) was released, we should've gotten an overhaul of Corrupted and even Nightmare mods THAT DAY because it's really an issue of one mod creating a flaw in another here.

But as far as I'm concerned, Efficiency is still not the problem here.

[Djego27]

Well U17 kind of was a big step in the right direction because parkur did fix most problems with hitscan weapons of the grenier units for hosts(like halve a year after the actual fix for that was out and did not work). Before this you had to CC everything in long survival/defence runs non stop. The core problem is still the ridiculous damage scaling what devalues HP mods and everything that is not invisible, got a massive damage reduction or insane amounts of HP to compensate. There should simply be a cap at damage scaling around L60 ish to make the content not one hit you all the time and defensive stuff like blessing, scatter shield, eclipse should be reduced to 50-60% damage reduction. Stuff like Hysteria and Defy should also just give a damage reduction, not plain god mode. With this you have massively reduced the need to CC everything all the time, made frames without very strong CC\survivability more viable and also bring nearly immortal frames closer to the rest, where it is still a advantage but not that big and not that necessary to have.

The T4 and NM penalty should also be changed from 3 times the damage(what is just one sided and bad) to cutting power strength, duration and range of your frame into halve. This actually makes map CC and map nuking a lot harder or even impossible and puts the focus more on player skill instead of power spamming.

With a change like this you also have a foundation where you can balance stuff like weapon damage, frame damage, damage multiplication abilities(sonar, mprime, accelerant etc), HP and armor scaling as well as boss\boss like enemy types a lot better what gives devs the option to actually make the game more engaging to play instead of just power spam and considerable reduces the needs for band aids like nullifiers.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Djego27

[Xzorn]

On 3/9/2016 at 1:33 AM, Mr.Lube said:

Fleeting is balanced on some frames, but on others there is basically no drawback which makes it a flawed and broken mod.  The fact that you require fleeting in your build is a sign of content being balanced around a broken feature that DE is too afraid to nerf or change.

Corrupted and Primed mods in general were a mistake in my opinion.

I agree with Corrupted Mods, I think they were the worst thing they ever added to the game. Their sole purpose is min/max and they've been the cause of a lot of balance problems.

Primed mods can be acceptable if used on the right mods, though their mere existence says something wasn't tuned correctly. Things like Primed Pistol Gambit were a mistake since Pistols Still Outperform most automatic Rifles but if they did something like Primed Pressure Point instead of Blood Rush there wouldn't be a complete crit based melee meta now.

[Fifield]

Yes, corrupted mods were a mistake.  They make some skills OP and other skills useless, thus making playing that mission less interesting.  They came in the same update as Nekros, the farm frame, so that tells you they weren't exactly thinking ahead.

The easiest way to fix P4TW is to cap energy gain.  If you nerf Trinity, they have to spend even more time pressing 2 and groups will just bring two of them.

Capping energy gain limits how quickly your energy can recover.  It doesn't stop you using ~7 skills in a row, nor should it.  It just stops you doing that more than more than once every couple of minutes.

Also, endless scaling isn't a problem -- power creep is.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Fifield

[Mr.Lube]

7 hours ago, Xzorn said:

I agree with Corrupted Mods, I think they were the worst thing they ever added to the game. Their sole purpose is min/max and they've been the cause of a lot of balance problems.

Primed mods can be acceptable if used on the right mods, though their mere existence says something wasn't tuned correctly. Things like Primed Pistol Gambit were a mistake since Pistols Still Outperform most automatic Rifles but if they did something like Primed Pressure Point instead of Blood Rush there wouldn't be a complete crit based melee meta now.

Primed mods are basically power creep in the form of a nice little silver card.

[Mr.Lube]

1 hour ago, Fifield said:

Yes, corrupted mods were a mistake.  They make some skills OP and other skills useless, thus making playing that mission less interesting.  They came in the same update as Nekros, the farm frame, so that tells you they weren't exactly thinking ahead.

The easiest way to fix P4TW is to cap energy gain.  If you nerf Trinity, they have to spend even more time pressing 2 and groups will just bring two of them.

Capping energy gain limits how quickly your energy can recover.  It doesn't stop you using ~7 skills in a row, nor should it.  It just stops you doing that more than more than once every couple of minutes.

Also, endless scaling isn't a problem -- power creep is.

You're right, endless scaling is not a problem. The thing is that it makes it harder for developers to balance equipment around. I feel like an enemy cap would make it a lot easier to balance the game. 

[Fifield]

1 minute ago, Mr.Lube said:

You're right, endless scaling is not a problem. The thing is that it makes it harder for developers to balance equipment around. I feel like an enemy cap would make it a lot easier to balance the game. 

Figuring out what's OP is easy.  Just look at most-used frames and weapons...

Rules for avoiding power creep:
1. Never buff one of these frames/weapons.
2. Never introduce anything stronger than these frames/weapons (preferably not weaker either).
3. If you accidentally introduce something stronger than these frames/weapons, nerf it.
4. Don't introduce mods that are better than standard choices for the last slot in a frame/weapon eg Primed Bane of X.

[Mr.Lube]

22 minutes ago, Fifield said:

Figuring out what's OP is easy.  Just look at most-used frames and weapons...

Rules for avoiding power creep:
1. Never buff one of these frames/weapons.
2. Never introduce anything stronger than these frames/weapons (preferably not weaker either).
3. If you accidentally introduce something stronger than these frames/weapons, nerf it.
4. Don't introduce mods that are better than standard choices for the last slot in a frame/weapon eg Primed Bane of X.

Most used does not always mean OP.

1. That's a no-brainer. Don't buff OP stuff.
2. That is easier said than done since we don't have a set range to balance new content around.
3. Unfortunately, DE seems scared of the community up-roar when they nerf one of the players' beloved cheese frames.
4. Again, easier said than done.

 

[Fifield]

3 hours ago, Mr.Lube said:

Most used does not always mean OP.

Equal usage is better to balance around anyway (assuming equal tier).  Whilst Trinity is ridiculously OP, if she wasn't a bit OP, few would want to play her.  Though obviously you balance around both and use common sense.

There hasn't been much powercreep since 2013, apart from Boltor & Soma Primes, Tonkor & Sonicor. the Primed mods and Excal & Frost remakes.   Obviously, the two rifles were the big mistake.  Everything else is fairly minor.

The problem is that DE are unwilling to nerf stuff to balance the difficulty.  So we one-shot everything except stuff that tends to one-shot us.
Best way to get the community to accept nerfs is to announce it 2 months ahead of time.  Another way is to get the community to do it -- then DE won't get blamed.  Compensate with a reduction in grind.

BTW, you don't balance for enemies, you balance vs existing options.  Makes it a lot easier.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Fifield

[Mr.Lube]

On 3/10/2016 at 11:25 PM, Fifield said:

Equal usage is better to balance around anyway (assuming equal tier).  Whilst Trinity is ridiculously OP, if she wasn't a bit OP, few would want to play her.  Though obviously you balance around both and use common sense.

There hasn't been much powercreep since 2013, apart from Boltor & Soma Primes, Tonkor & Sonicor. the Primed mods and Excal & Frost remakes.   Obviously, the two rifles were the big mistake.  Everything else is fairly minor.

The problem is that DE are unwilling to nerf stuff to balance the difficulty.  So we one-shot everything except stuff that tends to one-shot us.
Best way to get the community to accept nerfs is to announce it 2 months ahead of time.  Another way is to get the community to do it -- then DE won't get blamed.  Compensate with a reduction in grind.

BTW, you don't balance for enemies, you balance vs existing options.  Makes it a lot easier.

You balance around the core elements of the game. In Warframe's case, it is the enemies. Unfortunately, with the current state of enemies; balancing content around them leads to boring, copy paste AOE CC reskins.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Mr.Lube

[VentiGlondi]

DE created a game where everyone and everything is overpowered.

The funniest thing about this situation is that there's still people saying that everything, including enemies, should be buffed to be on par with the strongest warframes.

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

Guess I'm the only one that has no problems with the current system. Endless missions should keep scaling and require the proper build to be able to last for a long time... Part of the reason why we have so many frames and weapons is because we can make use of them in the right situation to make the impossible possible.

It's not like you're actually rewarded for lasting very long in endless missions anyway, asides from the fact that you're pulling more prime part for each key used. People want everythign to be balanced, but balance is booring, not having challenge sucks and I'd rather have to extract at 65 minutes in T4 Solo because I've hit the limit of what my build can accomplish than be able to facepalm forever due to fixed max levels on enemies.

Adding a max level for enemies or ensuring that every frame can last for the exact same time in endless missions would imho diminsh the appeal of the endgame meta. Part of what keeps old times playing is figuring out build that work in high level situations... That's why I love the arcanes and the focus trees, as both allow you to build on your frame's existing traits, Granted, some frames are left behind for extreme endgame stuff, but hey, that's unavoidable with such a high roster of frames with unique abilities. Not all frames can have the same amount of damage mitigation / crowd control / damage dealing at high level... And it's acceptable imho to have frames that are low tier and more suited for low level missions and frames that are tailored for high level content... Just like you can use mastery fodder weapons for star chart, but you won't last long in endless missions.

[Fifield]

The problem is you're compelled to play unchallenging missions.

This is both because enemies never caught up to massive buffs on Tenno and because a lot of stuff we need is hidden behind easy grind.

[Mr.Lube]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Stealth_Cobra said:

Guess I'm the only one that has no problems with the current system. Endless missions should keep scaling and require the proper build to be able to last for a long time... Part of the reason why we have so many frames and weapons is because we can make use of them in the right situation to make the impossible possible.

It's not like you're actually rewarded for lasting very long in endless missions anyway, asides from the fact that you're pulling more prime part for each key used. People want everythign to be balanced, but balance is booring, not having challenge sucks and I'd rather have to extract at 65 minutes in T4 Solo because I've hit the limit of what my build can accomplish than be able to facepalm forever due to fixed max levels on enemies.

Adding a max level for enemies or ensuring that every frame can last for the exact same time in endless missions would imho diminsh the appeal of the endgame meta. Part of what keeps old times playing is figuring out build that work in high level situations... That's why I love the arcanes and the focus trees, as both allow you to build on your frame's existing traits, Granted, some frames are left behind for extreme endgame stuff, but hey, that's unavoidable with such a high roster of frames with unique abilities. Not all frames can have the same amount of damage mitigation / crowd control / damage dealing at high level... And it's acceptable imho to have frames that are low tier and more suited for low level missions and frames that are tailored for high level content... Just like you can use mastery fodder weapons for star chart, but you won't last long in endless missions.

Having a set group of "meta" frames seems fun for those who enjoy using those particular frames. But it is a terrible experience for those who don't. A healthy game should allow you to choose what you want and be just as effective as the rest of the team.

[Mr.Lube]

58 minutes ago, Fifield said:

The problem is you're compelled to play unchallenging missions.

This is both because enemies never caught up to massive buffs on Tenno and because a lot of stuff we need is hidden behind easy grind.

I agree that we get too heavily rewarded for playing easy content. On the other hand, if DE started putting rewards behind "challenging" content most people (myself included) would not enjoy that. Not because I don't like a challenge (that's the whole point of this thread), but because Warframe's current "challenging" content is extremely cheesy and annoying.

[phoenix1992]

Okay, 
I read through most of the post (sorry if I have passed trough couple of them) and I get the grand scheme.
1. Mob scale - I can't say anything good for this. It is absurd, and it forces either Over Utility - CC, invisibility and so on - or the opposite trowing numbers at numbers. I am starting to get sick of schemes to push updots here and there in order to make it work. This is my main reason, I just go out of the void after 40 waves/40 mins - it starts to become unneeded and annoying. 
2. CC and spamming - I honestly thing that this is the after effect, and it will be more or less resolved with the balancing of content - many players are capable of not "cheesing" with spam attacks or CC and do fine. Inaros is actually good example of balance and general layout (not perfect, just good).
3. Compelling content - Sorties are not compelling.  Punishing and artificial, with poor time spend> profit ratio. I liked how Nightmare mission work, but they are deep into obscure territory.

What I wish to add: 
a) The raids
God dammit, I hate how they force our hands in those. Always with the drain mechanics, always with the obscure puzzles, half baked content and ridiculous drop tables. Can we have at least one enjoyable raid, that does not require hiding behind Trinity's skirt?
b) Loki 
It is not an "secret" that Loki is loved by many high rankers. He is the "go to" frame when you want alternative of the current game. But he is broken. Ridiculously broken and each time when I see one of my team the pop up "camper" appears. I do not ask for him to be removed, but please - find a way to make him more scaled towards the other frames. Ash is also an issue, but at least I know that even the worst Ash will bring some heat with him.
c) Game progress
We have been proven again and again, that our in game progress and in game achievements can be undone on a whim. It is mind numbing how our current gating system works, how Focus system is activated and what is the result of it. New players may dislike it but - no, you should not be able to do many things. No, you should fight trough mountains of mobs, butcher many boss units and then you can get to have a shot at some content. It is not okay for MR 5-6 to be able to kick in into Shadowstep, Blade Storm, WoF or whatever toy now is rampart against new players. It just insults, pushes for bad changes and here we have mobs on protein shakes. 
d) Risk and Reward
Not enough reason to give a damn about T4 missions and Nightmare missions. They punish, without any good reward for them, and turn locations in mega farming spots.

Exit statement:
The game has some issues. Some big, nasty and ugly ones. I hope that they will be able to address them, while retaining the core of the game and making up to players for all of the lost content and time when they drop the scissor in effect. And I honestly have Trust issues with DE, since they have proven on multiple occasions, that THEY DO NOT TEST. 

[Chipputer]

Oh look, another post that doesn't understand that changing the Meta requires changing how the frames work, whether that be on a global scale or individual scale.

I understand you're attempting to tackle a more pointed issue (that being lazy slapped on CC and enemy scaling), but your title is incredibly asinine and reflects a fundamental lack of understanding.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Chipputer
Typo

[Mr.Lube]

22 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Oh look, another post that doesn't understand that changing the Meta requires changing how the frames work, whether that be on a global scale or individual scale.

I understand you're attempting to tackle a more pointed issue (that being lazy slapped on CC and enemy scaling), but your title is incredibly asinine and reflects a fundamental lack of understanding.

I understand that the title may be misleading. It was directed at the people who say stuff like, "Banshee's Silence needs to be re-castable". It was meant to get my point across that making frames conform to the current meta is a bad thing, since the meta is broken. That being said, I understand that changing one element (the enemies) isn't the ultimate solution. If you read the OP you would know that it is just the first step in a bigger undertaking.

[Fifield]

51 minutes ago, Mr.Lube said:

I agree that we get too heavily rewarded for playing easy content. On the other hand, if DE started putting rewards behind "challenging" content most people (myself included) would not enjoy that. Not because I don't like a challenge (that's the whole point of this thread), but because Warframe's current "challenging" content is extremely cheesy and annoying.

A small portion of it, yes.  It should be obvious I'm not talking about that.

I'm talking about being able to kill 5 enemies with one bullet in T4..  I deliberately nerf myself because the game's easier than Care Bears Rainbow Playtime.  Enemies should have more health but scale slower in endless missions.