Now that there's (MORE!) timetraveling, can we travel back in time and kill "Lotus"? Specters of Rails Updated

[helix.hex]

1 hour ago, (PS4)FunyFlyBoy said:

People really think this is time travel added to the game? Lol. It's pockets of space still left in the void, not time travel...

i said memory regression myself......

[Xardis]

I dont know if enyone did mention this earlier but we arent traveling in time. In fact spy vaults are traveling around us. It would be imposible to travle in time as a frame. This would break the transferance link. Your mind is still in your liset when your frame is traveling into past when you cant reach it coz you didnt exist back then. Lotus can reach you in new/old  timeline in spy vaults. She cant speak to you back throught time.

[Mak_Gohae]

On 3/2/2016 at 11:51 PM, Kontrollo said:

No, you didn't, but you implied you want one. You want a time machine to go back in time to kill the Lotus. And you think those new Spy vaults - yes let's call them "time-pockets" - are your way into the past. But you'll see they aren't, you won't be able to change the past like you want.

 

It's not really time travel.

I didnt imply anything. I said what i wrote.

If you want to argue against something, argue what i wrote instead of your own created things.

Well, let's see how these things develop.

On 3/2/2016 at 0:30 AM, motorfirebox said:

Yes, there was a long period where players assumed that the Tenno were inside the Warframes.

For a long period of time DE talked like you were inside.

On 3/2/2016 at 0:53 AM, Vaxillian said:

Paradox alert!

If we go back in time to kill the Lotus none of this would have ever happened and we wouldn't have gone back to kill the Lotus. 

Sometimes there a some laws of time you just can't change.

Back to the Future alert!

All that happens i that the future changes and when you go back you are the only person that remembers the changes.

On 3/2/2016 at 3:03 AM, (PS4)Lowk721 said:

They left if vague enough that people could speculate. They used wordplay to leave their options open while they decided on what to make them. IMO I think DE might have started to figure out what they wanted the Tenno to be around the ember prime story.

 

The only thing they left vague is what we were inside, not if we were inside.

 

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Kind of unnecessary.... And stupid. They've still got so many other stories tell and questions that haven't been answered. They just started adding some real characterization to the cast. Changing history on that scale basically just wipes that all away. 

They dont have to change that much. Plus all the answering of questions doesnt have to stop.

[(PSN)Lowk721]

2 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Back to the Future alert!

All that happens i that the future changes and when you go back you are the only person that remembers the changes.

You do remember that was the series where the protagonist erased people close to him out of existence then almost himself, right?

2 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

The only thing they left vague is what we were inside, not if we were inside.

I recall some talk about something like that around when they were talking about how the Orokin had something that functioned similar. I think it was sometime after the moon reveal.

2 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

They dont have to change that much. Plus all the answering of questions doesnt have to stop.

As noted in the back to the future reference. Changing one thing can have much larger consequences and Lotus is not a small thing in the timeline. Answers to old questions wouldn't matter because things didn't go how they did before. All knowledge of what happened is essentially useless because they were never put to sleep in the first place.

Wars could start against them by the people unhappy by the change in status quo. You take out the Grineer who have gone wild and the good ones will never be born. People who do miraculously get born would not go through the same experiences, meaning it wouldn't make sense for them to even be the same character they were before.  

Even the Tenno themselves would be in danger since Lotus was the one that was able to hide the weakspot. In a system where the Grineer are already pirating/looting around, that is a big thing have out in the open. Even if they don't know what the Tenno are, the idea of a large Orokin base is going to draw some eyes. Defending it would just draw even more attention. Which is essentially risking all the other Tenno alive now. 

The sentients without Lotus' lie come back early or send someone else. Now instead of a war in the distant future, it is a war between the people who hate the Tenno, the Grineer, The Tenno, and the sentient. So basically the same thing but in a different era and who knows how that war will change things in the present. 

Even if the Tenno did manage to control everything, they don't know the history of thier present. They don't know how to make it into something that resembless a better version of what they knew. You know who was alive and kept watch all that time, Lotus

Edited March 5, 2016 by (PS4)Lowk721

[Vaxillian]

2 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Back to the Future alert!

All that happens i that the future changes and when you go back you are the only person that remembers the changes.

You're travelling through time, not other universes.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Vaxillian

[(PSN)FunyFlyBoy]

People...we are not traveling through time... parts of the moon is still trapped within the void keeping it from being damage. That is all. Basically, think of it as Limbo affecting the environment itself. Whatever is inside of Limbos cataclysm is not affected by what happens outside of it until it drops. Same concept. 

Edited March 5, 2016 by (PS4)FunyFlyBoy

[(PSN)OppneusKorsuss]

I wish I could go back in time and un-read this thread.

[Mak_Gohae]

On 3/2/2016 at 6:25 AM, helix.hex said:

i think the lotus is doing the "evil mother" thing. acting sweet and inocent while planning to use us to take over the orgin system and the tau.......we know WE can survive the void and probably the trip there so who is to say we couldnt in time take over the tau system with a little time?

 

never trust nothing you cant put a bullet, knife, 4 power, and/or rhino boot into.

That would interesting. If we go over there "in the name of good."

On 3/2/2016 at 9:51 AM, Attley said:

 

Every current discussion we have regarding Warframes assumes that inside the Warframe is some kind of Infested creature, but I'm willing to bet that that's wrong.
 

I started this discussion before the reveal. The theory was that the tenno were energy and powered up a dead body in the frame.

But that is the current topic because this is what people think is the best theory based on the info DE gives.

Just like before people thought that tenno where inside. That didnt come out of nowhere, DE fed us things that make people think that.

 

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And as far as I can recall the only explicit implication that the Warframes are suits is back from the closed beta and very early open beta, and at that point there was practically no lore whatsoever beyond a incredibly basic outline sketch. Also, I don't think that it's ever stated that the Warframes are worn buy Tenno, just that they are exoskeletons - all of which is true. However, I don't think DE had planned this all from the start, and so changes happen. However, it's still the case that we had always been assuming that the Tenno was inside the Warframe. Yes it was the logical conclusion of what we heard, but was still an assumption. Although personally I wouldn't care that much if DE had retconned the whole thing out in the open: the Operator idea simply makes more sense with both the lore and the mechanics of the game.

Here's DE Steve saying that the tenno "were human at some point," and the warframes  go over their body.

This stuff didnt come out no nowhere, this is what these folks made people think.

This why the were theories about them being energy, slugs, lizards. Cause the tenno were said to be twisted by the void and because they kept saying Warframe was something you wore.

 

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As you stated later in your post, 'They [DE] can turn it [the story] into whatever they want', and yet now you're all pissy because DE did exactly that? This is the irony that's always found in people who want creators to change their stories, it was the same with Mass Effect 3: a large, vocal group of people who on the one hand shout that the writer needs to change X part of their story while on the other they declare that such a change is necessary because the rest of the story is immutable and X part, in their eyes, doesn't fit.

Im asking for the option to have tenno inside.

Im not saying change the whole game back. Plus,the point of the thread is to discuss what you like and what you dont like. Some times they change stuff, some times they roll it back, and some times they adjust it.

 

[BornWithTeeth]

30 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

 

 

Im asking for the option to have tenno inside.

Im not saying change the whole game back. Plus,the point of the thread is to discuss what you like and what you dont like. Some times they change stuff, some times they roll it back, and some times they adjust it.

 

Well, that is what you're saying. What you're asking for is "Change time so that the Tenno are inside the Warframes, we kill the Lotus, we wipe out the Orokin and then take control of the Empire, establish the Tenno as a ruling warrior caste, and then maybe go and conquer Tau too."

 

What you are asking for is to keep the gameplay, and to keep the central concept of Warframes, but to change everything else about the setting.

[Sixty5]

OP, I have read many of your posts over the years, but for the first time I find myself in agreement with you. 

Can someone check if hell has frozen over?

[Mak_Gohae]

On 3/2/2016 at 0:11 PM, Drasiel said:

 

Life mimics fiction, fiction mimics life. Both can be used as a guide for the paths of each other.

Well they managed to keep archwing a secret even though there was a hint about it in the mag prime codex entry. That was there for a nearly a year before archwing was introduced. So yes, I do believe they are capable of keeping secrets and that sheldon's "spoilers" are more an act than anything else.

 

Fiction doesnt have to mimic anything.

And i posted a vid above with Steve saying tenno are inside frames.

The A-wing was something never discussed by them which is why there was barely any talk of doing something like that on the board. Discussion about warframes and tenno was constant between DE people and the board.

 

On 3/2/2016 at 3:46 PM, firelordzx5 said:

 

DE never hinted that the Tenno were inside the warframe but hinted that something was inside instead, we just assumed that it was the Tenno all along but everything was vagued so DE could still have freedom and creativity to pull the "reveal" later and now we have a plot twist, we never saw this coming, sure we knew that we were experimented children survivors of a accident but we never thought they would remain as children and they were controlling the warframe, no, scratch that. they were dreaming that they were the warframe all along.

The Tenno never saw this coming.

 

Like i said above, i just posted a vid with Steve saying this, go click on it.

Should be above this or in the last page.

On 3/2/2016 at 4:09 PM, Attley said:

Basically all of this. The reveal of the truth behind the Operators turned the Tenno from Mary-Sue superwarriors who can do no evil into an interesting and tragic group of children, experimented on and manipulated into martial service by an uncaring, all powerful empire.
 

"Can do no evil"? Where are you getting this from?

They were always accidents that were experimented on and used as weapons. That's been in the lore for a loooonng time.

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I'm personally not convinced that what is actually inside the Warframe is just an Infested mass, and I've always been partial to the idea that the Orokin were evil enough to try to recreate what happened of the Zaramin, but the second experiment didn't work quite as well, and so while the second batch of children couldn't use Void powers they could channel them. Encase these in the Warframes and boom. Of course, that's all a complete guess, but it's what I'd like to see. 

So you are ok with having the option of having some inside.

So there is not problem, then.....

[ArchangelusAlpharius]

So OP wants DE to make Tenno into Ultrasmurfs or Grey Sues with Wardian Power Armor. 

 

Just Stop

Just because you want some part of a story, doesn't mean you should ram it down people's throats. Trying to suggest an irrevocable story change without majority or unanimous support is fine, demanding that you be heard after being told no just makes you a fool. 

Edited March 7, 2016 by ArchangelusAlpharius

[Littlerift]

32 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

"Can do no evil"? Where are you getting this from?

They were always accidents that were experimented on and used as weapons. That's been in the lore for a loooonng time.

So you are ok with having the option of having some inside.

So there is not problem, then.....

Well the Tenno have never been shown to have done anything bad of their own volition, thus 'can do no evil'...
 

And of course I'm okay with having something inside, there's clearly something inside. However, I don't see how the fact that the person controlling the Warframe isn't inside the Warframe changes anything about the game, and frankly I prefer the current setup as it's more original and interesting than just 'They're superpeople in supersuits' story. I wouldn't have been upset if the Second Dream had showed us in the suits, I just prefer the current system - not only do I find it far more interesting but it also makes a lot more sense in-universe than the alternative. That and I find the 'DE need to give us a way to be inside the suit' to often be rather petulant and lacking in respect for creators and writers. It's the ME3 ending all over again, a crowd of people who keep saying that X person stated this and therefore should have to stick with that original statement while at the same time claiming they should retcon the other things they have done to make it so.

[firelordzx5]

Why is necesary a generic superpowered human in suit anyway? it got old already.

This is what DE wanted and will remain like that, Deal with it.

[Kaisty]

18 minutes ago, Attley said:

Well the Tenno have never been shown to have done anything bad of their own volition, thus 'can do no evil'...
 

And of course I'm okay with having something inside, there's clearly something inside. However, I don't see how the fact that the person controlling the Warframe isn't inside the Warframe changes anything about the game, and frankly I prefer the current setup as it's more original and interesting than just 'They're superpeople in supersuits' story. I wouldn't have been upset if the Second Dream had showed us in the suits, I just prefer the current system - not only do I find it far more interesting but it also makes a lot more sense in-universe than the alternative. That and I find the 'DE need to give us a way to be inside the suit' to often be rather petulant and lacking in respect for creators and writers. It's the ME3 ending all over again, a crowd of people who keep saying that X person stated this and therefore should have to stick with that original statement while at the same time claiming they should retcon the other things they have done to make it so.

We will never be shown doing anything evil whatsoever because DE put us on the "Lawful Good" rails and won't let us off. Some players want to be inside the suits because to them it feels like the Tenno are actually risking full life and limb while out fighting (thus showing honor) instead of plugging into a suit and fighting from the safety of their ship. They feel some pain, but they are not actually having said damage done to them.

As for the "ME3" ending thing, that was a huge debacle because they said "our choices mattered" throughout the entire franchise and then at the end just threw them out the window and gave us the same video, but with three different colors. It would be the equivalent of working at a company and being told that if you put enough effort into it, you will get a meal worth what you put in (lets say a nice steak). You spend hours upon hours working hard for the company, checking and double checking everything so you know that you would get a nice size meal, and even checked in to see if you would still get it (which you were assured) and it was exactly what you were getting instead of something different. Then when you finally go get it, they instead give you a Happy meal with a choice of toys that are all the same, but a different color all because a few decided "Forget it, just give them the cheap stuff no matter what they did!".

[Aimop95]

I'm fairly sure killing the Lotus does nothing for us but harm. Furthermore, after the Sentient debacle, there is no way the Orokin Executors would allow beings with greater power than them to last long. Pretty sure after we had dealt with the Sentients the Orokin would have shut us down quietly, if only because they feared us as they didn't understand us.

Also Lotus is confirmed by the story writers to be the "good guy". So any story directions where the Lotus is evil will never materialize. Saying otherwise is being extremely rude to the writers and story tellers, as well as being purposefully stubborn and hard-headed.

[motorfirebox]

On 3/6/2016 at 6:10 PM, Mak_Gohae said:

Here's DE Steve saying that the tenno "were human at some point," and the warframes  go over their body.

This stuff didnt come out no nowhere, this is what these folks made people think.

This why the were theories about them being energy, slugs, lizards. Cause the tenno were said to be twisted by the void and because they kept saying Warframe was something you wore.

 

 

Except that this devstream came out after Rhino Prime, and Rhino Prime established the existence of the operators as separate from the Warframes. For that matter, it's actually entirely possible that Warframes are built over top of former humans, and that those former humans also came from the Zarimon Ten-Zero. The Operators—the "Tenno"—are the children who returned aboard the Zarimon Ten-Zero. Nothing says that the adults couldn't have returned as well, as twisted abominations around which the Warframes were built.

[Kaisty]

1 hour ago, Aimop95 said:

I'm fairly sure killing the Lotus does nothing for us but harm. Furthermore, after the Sentient debacle, there is no way the Orokin Executors would allow beings with greater power than them to last long. Pretty sure after we had dealt with the Sentients the Orokin would have shut us down quietly, if only because they feared us as they didn't understand us.

Also Lotus is confirmed by the story writers to be the "good guy". So any story directions where the Lotus is evil will never materialize. Saying otherwise is being extremely rude to the writers and story tellers, as well as being purposefully stubborn and hard-headed.

How is putting things in perspective being rude? Also, to say it will never materialize can be considered rude as well because the writers can always change their minds at anytime. Unless the writers and story tellers are doing it from multiple viewpoints or makes the point that good and evil are perspective, you tend to get only one side of the story. Also, to say it will never materialize can be considered rude as well because the writers can always change their minds at anytime.

Take Star Wars for example: For every movie you see the majority from the Rebels point of view or, if going by prequel, the Republic / Jedi pov. You rarely see the Cis / Empire side unless it is something evil to move the plot along. When you finally do see it from the other side, the Rebels look less like the "Heroes" and more like a terrorist group bent on destabilizing the galaxy because some higher up and their "bizarre religion" decided to run things with an iron fist.

Likewise, the Starcraft and Warcraft RTS series has multiple sides where each thinks they are the hero while the others are the villains. It isn't till later in both series that the respective sides either join forces or something causes them to put things into perspective and then the whole "who is good / evil" is changed.

Finally, to say that killing Natah would do nothing but harm can be a far stretch. In fact, it could possibly do less harm and more good because the Tenno rooted out a Sentient spy among the Orokin elite, thus would cause the Orokin to have to check over their people to see if there are any more. By then, the Tenno could pack things up, go out and make sure the Sentients are truly dealt with. Afterwards, they could still kill off the Orokin elite and possibly just leave the galaxy to burn while going off and......I don't know, start a potato farm or something far away from the destruction of the galaxy. Or join in on the destruction and see how bad it could really get?

[Aimop95]

3 hours ago, Kaisty said:

How is putting things in perspective being rude? Also, to say it will never materialize can be considered rude as well because the writers can always change their minds at anytime. Unless the writers and story tellers are doing it from multiple viewpoints or makes the point that good and evil are perspective, you tend to get only one side of the story. Also, to say it will never materialize can be considered rude as well because the writers can always change their minds at anytime.

Take Star Wars for example: For every movie you see the majority from the Rebels point of view or, if going by prequel, the Republic / Jedi pov. You rarely see the Cis / Empire side unless it is something evil to move the plot along. When you finally do see it from the other side, the Rebels look less like the "Heroes" and more like a terrorist group bent on destabilizing the galaxy because some higher up and their "bizarre religion" decided to run things with an iron fist.

Likewise, the Starcraft and Warcraft RTS series has multiple sides where each thinks they are the hero while the others are the villains. It isn't till later in both series that the respective sides either join forces or something causes them to put things into perspective and then the whole "who is good / evil" is changed.

Finally, to say that killing Natah would do nothing but harm can be a far stretch. In fact, it could possibly do less harm and more good because the Tenno rooted out a Sentient spy among the Orokin elite, thus would cause the Orokin to have to check over their people to see if there are any more. By then, the Tenno could pack things up, go out and make sure the Sentients are truly dealt with. Afterwards, they could still kill off the Orokin elite and possibly just leave the galaxy to burn while going off and......I don't know, start a potato farm or something far away from the destruction of the galaxy. Or join in on the destruction and see how bad it could really get?

The writers could change their minds if they wanted too yes, if they hadn't confirmed that the Lotus has no harmful intentions to the tenno on an earlier devstream. Saying that the writers could change whatever the direction of their story is true yes, but then it breaks consistency given the story we have now. It's like writing that Luke Skywalker kills his father during episode 6 of Star Wars. Could it have happened? Yes. Would it have been inconsistent with the story and character we had been given about Luke since episode 4? Yes.

The story we have been given is that at no point has the Lotus been hostile to the Tenno nor given the slightest inclination (from both in-universe and from a story-telling perspective) to wanting to harm the Tenno since her turning. Saying otherwise is thrusting one's own personal story onto the main plot, which is fan-fiction.

Going back to killing the Lotus, to say thing would have gotten better is just as unsubstantiated a claim as mine. For all we know, the Sentients purposefully lost the war simply in  to give the Lotus the ability to carry out her mission, but could have killed off the Orokin and Tenno in a prolonged war. Meaning killing the Lotus only set back one plan of many.

Adversely, killing the Lotus ends up with all the Tenno dead via Orokin hands, as the Orokin leadership has clearly been depicted as ruthless and uncompromising in taking out threats to their power (and the Tenno most certainly would be a threat). Do not forget that the Lotus was instrumental in bringing down the Orokin leadership by motivating the Tenno to do it. If she wasn't important to the coup, why hadn't the Tenno taken revenge on Margulis' death prior to the Lotus appearing, they had the suits/power and they clearly had the motive (2nd dream ending dialogue), so why did they wait until the Lotus showed to start the coup? Infiltration is no problem for them and no building could withstand the power of a united army of Warframes, so why wait until the Lotus appeared? She provided something that allowed them to start and succesfully end the coup that killed off the Orokin leaders.

[(PSN)Lowk721]

21 hours ago, Kaisty said:

Finally, to say that killing Natah would do nothing but harm can be a far stretch.

Depending on how time works in the warframe universe, you either

A. Erase the way everything was. Essentially killing everyone in the current timeline.

B. Create an entirely new timeline along side the other regular universe.

C. Mess up the time space continuum

D. Accidentally get themselves killed by not hiding away.

E. Lead to another sentient spy who is more ruthless who could do more damage

Yes there could be some good possibilities in the short run but chances are you'd be messing with current lives worst then the Lotus ever did. That'd be rewriting the lives of everyone just to kill off a character that wants to help now. Time travel is dangerous but if your going to do it there are probably smarter ways.  

 

Edited March 9, 2016 by (PS4)Lowk721

[ClinkzEastwood]

In the parkour spy room primed time, there's a display of corrupted lancer and crewman who weren't exist during Orokin time.

[Mak_Gohae]

On 3/2/2016 at 5:26 PM, Attley said:

 

Lotus saved the entire Origin System from the Sentients by choosing to not destroy the Tenno and hiding the Reservoir, and then seemingly signalling to the Tau System that they didn't need to send any more Sentients. 

 

Dont really what the sentient plan was so we dont really know that she needed to signal the others.

But what she did is destroy the leadership of the empire then disappear leaving everything in total chaos.

Sorry but that's waaaaaay far from saving anything.

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Also, putting Tenno inside the Warframe is the dumbest idea imaginable. Remember that part in the Second Dream where the Warframe gets quite easily impaled by the Stalker using the entirely blunt tip of War? Yeah, put the Tenno inside the Warframe and you lose Tenno whenever they go into combat.

If we go back in time we will reveal the location of Hunhow and kill him back then.

Meaning that none of those events will happen.

 

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In the end, though, the Tenno will never be given an opportunity to destroy the Lotus because the good people at DE seem to actually understand something about creating an interesting and ambiguous story and lore to their creations, and none of this adolescent wankery about 'Wah I want to kill space mum' is going to change that. Add to that the fact that the Tenno would never be able to rule the Origin system because all they are is soldiers, with no knowledge of anything else. Hell, they don't even understand basic human compassion except for Margulis and the Lotus. The Tenno need Lotus because, ultimately, they are just children.

First, i will never call "lotus" a space mom.

Second, never say never.

third, Tenno had clans, schools, a leadership caste, and also created their own frames. Not all of them are just soldiers.

 

 

On 3/3/2016 at 9:24 PM, ravend said:

That is pure speculation on your part. with the lotus, then she would have been replaced with someone that didn't have any motherly feelings towards the tenno. or hell even hunhow completing the final part and killing us off. No lotus, no us period. Its not going to happen, there  wont be any killing the lotus or even switching to someone besides her. The tenno and the lotus are together like family. quit moaning or complaining about it, this isn't your story to tell, its DE's. Trying to change the story at this point is like yelling at a book.

We kill "Lotus" and all other Sentients at the same time of the Orokin. No other sentient will be sent over.

And im giving feedback on the story just like everyone else gives feedback on everything else. Im sure you have given feedback on stuff you want to be adjusted, right? You just dont go around telling people to stop giving feedback, right?

On 3/3/2016 at 2:06 AM, (PS4)Lowk721 said:

Time travel, regardless of other stories is a mess all on it's own; especially when it is used to change stuff drastically. 

 Take this for example, if you kill the Lotus then the events that led up to you being able to travel back in time to kill her never happened meaning you never traveled back to kill her. So your own action would be canceling out the effect you wanted to have.

I dont know why you people keep using this.

We go back in time do something and change the future, the time line now adjust and it stays with the new version, the end.

Just pretty much all time travel movies. We are not going back to change the birth of the tenno, we are going back to make sure the tenno are not under the control of a sentient.

 

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Besides that, Killing the Lotus gets rid of one of the possibilities of tracking Hunhow down. Imagine Lotus and Tenno figuring out a way of using Hunhow's link with her against him like he did himself. 

We already know where he is.

On top of that they are linked so we can hack her if somehow that was different in the past.

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The remnants of the Orokin empire with a hate so deep to that Tenno eventually becomes synonymous with Betrayers. Now instead of Grineer and Corpus versus each other and the people it is 'People the Tenno were raised to defend' vs 'the Tenno'. Of course the Tenno are going to defend themselves and considering there MO that can lead down some bad paths that could paint the Tenno in a worse light then they are now. 

people keep going on how the Orokin were mega evil so i find this a bit strange.

Anyway, the leader with the power can stomp down any rebellion. Plus, this leads to new possibilities.

 

[(PSN)Lowk721]

3 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

I dont know why you people keep using this.

We go back in time do something and change the future, the time line now adjust and it stays with the new version, the end.

Just pretty much all time travel movies. We are not going back to change the birth of the tenno, we are going back to make sure the tenno are not under the control of a sentient.

Becasue it is one of the possibilities. If you get rid of the cause then the effect can't happen. You don't have to go that far back to change the event that led up to the possibility of time travel. Lotus puts tenno to sleep > Tenno wake up not knowing> Natah events happens > The events of second dream happen > assualt on the moon > Allows for time hijinks on the moon. 

Not mention whatever the Tenno do back then will have concequnces in the future. Say they stay awake and kill somebody who originally lived and had a family several generations long. You've just killed a family somewhere in the colonies  enjoying dinner.

Also judging by how the Tenno don't really question it after they got their memory back and the fact they know she isn't Margulis; I think the Tenno already knew. That or like with the grineer/corpus on the relay, they really don't care what you are as long as you aren't working against them. The Tenno are probably just very progressive killers.

3 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

We already know where he is.

On top of that they are linked so we can hack her if somehow that was different in the past.

Where is he? Because from what I recall there was only a parts of a sentient, not Hunhow himself. Not to mention he doesn't exactly have one body.

When did we learn how to hack sentients to the point we know how to do something the other sentient had trouble doing?

3 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

people keep going on how the Orokin were mega evil so i find this a bit strange.

Not really that strange. Regardless of how evil they were they established a hierarchy. Some people would have been higher up under their rule then other. Killing them ruins that. So people who were relatively well off probably won't like the life they've been accustomed to being rooted under them. The fact that the lore has people of varying classes referring to them as betrayers, also not a good sign that they'll be welcomed with open arms.

3 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Anyway, the leader with the power can stomp down any rebellion. Plus, this leads to new possibilities.

Essentially making someone else take the role the Grineer currently have. Great good job, got rid of the person who just wants to help to create the new Grineer. 

And by new possibilities you mean an entirely different story because you've essentially wiped one of the figures responsible for a lot of key events happening.

[ravend]

Mak-attack, just come out and say it, your not happy with how the game came out. You want to go back and kill everyone that started everything, first the lotus and now hunhow. This will be my last response to this thread. its clear to me that you are upset and refuse to accept the state of the game (lore wise). I will never understand those who wish to kill the lotus for such small reasons. Yes she has withheld info from us, look at what happened to the stalker when he found out. The couldnt accept the truth and now hunts me down everytime i put on a new frame or forma an older one.  The tenno and the lotus are family and if you cant accept that, i think its time for you to move on. I know you want to side with anyone BUT the lotus, that is clear, but its not going to happen period.

[Maxx1220]

I'm inclined to agree with ravend, though I wouldn't necessarily word my opinions the same way, but the feelings are about the same. I really think that this thread and the conversation throughout has been rather unproductive and pointless. The original post contains nothing to really start a meaningful discussion; and in turn, responses are just as poor. I also do not fully understand the point of the discussion either, Mak_Gohae; do you truly believe the lore and story would drastically improve if we could kill Lotus? What kinds of changes would happen? What effects would it have on the characters of the game world? These kinds of questions should be addressed within the first post, otherwise, what are we even supposed to be discussing?

All I've seen are arguments over time travel, the validity of military-based governments, and scattered comments or questions about the lore we already do know. And that's another issue with this entire thread; no bases have been set. It's really difficult to have a good discussion if there are bases that can't be agreed upon; which should also be covered in the original post.

I feel that this really could have been an intricate and complex conversation over lore, but it's just two sides bashing against each other until the other gives in; something that obviously won't happen.

On a side note to be somewhat more relevant to the original post, I personally see no merits to killing Lotus at all. I do realize that Lotus isn't perfect, and that she has a very shady history, but I don't feel any malevolent purpose behind her actions. At the moment, I don't think there's much pointing to any future betrayal from her, the lore of the game has been yet to be unveiled and until there's proof, I take the stance of "innocent until proven guilty".