Please DE, don't attempt Syndicate Melee with too high MR lock....

[knightsofsanghelios]

I see what you mean, phoenix, and I do agree with you there.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, FunkadelicMayhem said:

HUH NO!!

 

 

DE please lock some stuff behind an MR wall!! Especially the people who have a bunch of prime stuff and still have not unlocked the solar map yet and as a result ask for a taxi everywhere and come into higher end missions with good gear and still dont know how to play the game.

its not only low level people which are mad, i meet a few MR 21 which are highly neurotic players which should be banned for harrasment, just saying

there are not so many of them you describe as high neurotic MR 19 to 21, i can promise you

and if i can choose with whom i wanna play i commented here about, i would choose new players, because they wanna learn and have fun ^^)

just my 2 cents

Edited March 1, 2016 by Guest

[Senoinya]

1 hour ago, giantconch said:

Ok, so you think MR is pointless and shouldnt be what determines wether or not a person can get a weapon. So what SHOULD be what determines wether or not a person can gain access to the weapon? Time lock? You've already said you are against this so...what then?

 

Do you gain MR from unlocking planets? From having the most kills in a mission? What? From running Void missions?

 

**Sorta asked two questions at once here, what should be the determining factor for weapons lock, and what would be better for determining MR in your opinion

Maybe if you'd read my posts you'd actually comprehend it.

MR as it is should not decide who gets what because it doesn't achieve what a leveling system is supposed to achieve - keeping certain gear for the players who are more experienced. So since it doesn't do that, all it does is favor those who go the least skilled route toward earning mastery rank and punish those who don't, when it should be the other way around.

There are a lot of ways MR could and should be reworked, and this should be done before any weapons are shoved into higher MRs. Basically, I'm not saying MR shouldn't ever dictate who gets what weapons, but it shouldn't dictate it with how MR is right now.

 

1 hour ago, IceColdHawk said:

So it literally screams for a MR rework, doesn't it? But the stronger weapons have to get locked into further ranks so you always get the feeling to achieve something. People gotta hit MR5, get the tonkor and be done. Boom. Bad &#! endgame done. That's a problem.

 I wouldn't expect anything too special about syndicate melees anyway. Even if they were MR16, some of them probably will suck compared to low MR's like nikana prime. The whole system is flawed (mhmm, embolist mr 8). MR shouldn't be dependant on leveling. And because i understand people not bothering to lvl all that crap till they can get their hands on a shiny op gun, we could really need a new MR system sooner or later. MR30 you say? I'm probably dead by then or the game is dead. I should reach MR30 for skill and experience, not for visiting draco and waiting for new "MR fodder" to come out. If i don't like the weapon, i shouldn't be forced to level it. It's not fun, it's work.

Thank you, someone with common sense! Yes, it does indeed scream for an MR rework.

And yes, exactly, MR should be a reward for actual experience, not carrying weapons in Draco while you press one or two buttons and let affinity rain in until you're at 30 on everything.

[CaterHowlett16]

Why do you want to deny newer players access to a weapon? Isn't  it enough for you to have it? No of course not, since that endorphin kick ended a while ago. It's no longer satisfying to just OWN the weapon, now you need to become the closest thing to exclusively owning the weapon. Why? Iv'e narrowed it down to two reasons.

A) You want to feel special.

B) You feel that you are owed a spot in the "cool club" just because of all those hours you wasted in Draco.

 As I said before, I'm okay with a reasonable MR wall, but um...

30 MR?!, 21 MR?!, 20 MR?!, 18 MR?!, 16 MR?! THESE ARE NOT REASONABLE.

The main argument to this is that newer players shouldn't have powerful weapons. I agree to that to a certain extent, but Im MR 12-13, and I certainly wouldn't call me a "noob" I know the game and can one-shot things just like a MR20 can. I didn't waste my time ranking up weapons only to resell them again and I KNOW that I am not alone.  

*edit* One other thing should there be any traders in the forums. The more people MR blocked from getting your weapon, the less likely you will be able to sell it. You can't sell weapons to people who don't have the MR.

Edited March 1, 2016 by CaterHowlett16

[Senketsu_]

6 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

FTFY

actually I have never even played on Draco, i avoid it.

[Weidro]

26 minutes ago, CaterHowlett16 said:

-snip-

*edit* One other thing should there be any traders in the forums. The more people MR blocked from getting your weapon, the less likely you will be able to sell it. You can't sell weapons to people who don't have the MR.

or u can finaly sell the stuff to ppl who dont whine and *@##$ about plat and ppl who have plat dont dont need to destroy the prices and who are constantly underbidding each other

didnt even thought about that

I DEMAND HIGHER MR LOCKS on EVERYTHING

[Giantconch]

59 minutes ago, Valsako said:

Maybe if you'd read my posts you'd actually comprehend it.

MR as it is should not decide who gets what because it doesn't achieve what a leveling system is supposed to achieve - keeping certain gear for the players who are more experienced. So since it doesn't do that, all it does is favor those who go the least skilled route toward earning mastery rank and punish those who don't, when it should be the other way around.

There are a lot of ways MR could and should be reworked, and this should be done before any weapons are shoved into higher MRs. Basically, I'm not saying MR shouldn't ever dictate who gets what weapons, but it shouldn't dictate it with how MR is right now.

I ask what you think should be used to determine what keeps new users from getting ultra OP weapons right away, your answer is "Not the MR system"

 

I ask what you think should be used to determine MR and you dance around the question and say "there are a lot of ways" without specifically mentioning at least one.

 

My ability to comprehend what you are saying is working just fine thank you.

 

In trying to understand your side of the argument what I see a lot of is frustration about people using Draco to powerlevel, and that those people are undeserving of the MR that they have. I sympathize, I really do. I refuse to use Draco to initially rank a weapon for good reason; You get a much better feel of the weapon and what it can do trying to tough it out against mid level enemies for 20-40 minutes. However, alternatives to weapon/frame ranks = MR, such as lifetime kill exp, can be abused as well. Planets and nodes = Exp? Can be abused as well with a leech asking for help constantly to clear nodes.

[OniDax]

6 hours ago, SilentCircle said:

That's ridiculous. MR requirements should reflect the relative strength of the gear they unlock. That way you give players goals to work towards and have a gear progression system besides leveling mods. Asking for a system like that has absolutely nothing to do with elitism.

MR absolutely does NOT "reflect the relative strength of the gear they unlock." The fact that you even think that's what the system is based on is problematic.

[phoenix1992]

3 hours ago, CaterHowlett16 said:

Why do you want to deny newer players access to a weapon? Isn't  it enough for you to have it? No of course not, since that endorphin kick ended a while ago. It's no longer satisfying to just OWN the weapon, now you need to become the closest thing to exclusively owning the weapon. Why? Iv'e narrowed it down to two reasons.

A) You want to feel special.

B) You feel that you are owed a spot in the "cool club" just because of all those hours you wasted in Draco.

 As I said before, I'm okay with a reasonable MR wall, but um...

30 MR?!, 21 MR?!, 20 MR?!, 18 MR?!, 16 MR?! THESE ARE NOT REASONABLE.

The main argument to this is that newer players shouldn't have powerful weapons. I agree to that to a certain extent, but Im MR 12-13, and I certainly wouldn't call me a "noob" I know the game and can one-shot things just like a MR20 can. I didn't waste my time ranking up weapons only to resell them again and I KNOW that I am not alone.  

*edit* One other thing should there be any traders in the forums. The more people MR blocked from getting your weapon, the less likely you will be able to sell it. You can't sell weapons to people who don't have the MR.

This is wrong on multiple levels. I do not want to deny you, Tenno - never the less I would like you to have access to all primes and drops, I was able to acquire.
But let me back up and see how much I can address your issues.

A) If something is obtainable, this does not make it special. Me or you having Saryn Prime/Telos boltor (examples), does not have the same weight as you know, either of us having Exca Prime, or anything like that (anniversary weps or those that won't be seeing an comeback, like Gorgon Wraith). Please do not confuse "harder to get" with "impossible to get".

B) Draco... Just because you would rather farm affinity in Draco, does not mean we all do. If this is the only valuable way you can see, for gaining rank - man you have some serious issues.

C) Irony and sarcasm. Many "veteran" players (I put on quotes, since actual vets are rare and do not give a damn), are mad. All the things they have done, all the battles they have won, all hours they have spended, are already questionable. DE can always change stuff, in way that will make that work undone in seconds (see the Lenses shenanigans, as they were the most recent - all players that wanted them fast, and lost an great amount of platinum because of that), and when players also want to "spit" on those efforts... It is can make many neutrals, salty as hell.

The other points you have mentioned "I can one shot" - the current state of game is, that you can kill anything with 80% of the arsenal, if you pay enough attention and dedication. Hell, I am pretty sure at least one player has made sword and shield work, even with the majority of us dropping those two weps. "I know the game", Tenno please. So much hidden stats, so many tricks, even if you have wiki opened up at all times - you will miss information, do not act like an all knowing person.
"Trades shenanigans" - i will refer to point "A" again. If you can gain something in the game, with enough in game time (after all, syndicates only require time) - this thing is not so special or valuable. If DE drops syndy melee at any point, at a rank bellow 15 - those weapons will be on the same price list as an cheap prime WF set. After all if you have enough power to bypass the Ranking, you will have enough power to acquire the weapon on your own. If it is beyond rank 15 - will you really care? You should have am polished melee at that point. Only those who rush are willing to overpay something meager. And yes, player that want to spend money, will always buy an Bo set for 100 plat (example), even if it is not worth the money.

Edited March 2, 2016 by phoenix1992
d0uche is censored? Really? From all the ways you can say that someone is, special person, you had to censor that word?

[CaterHowlett16]

1 hour ago, phoenix1992 said:

This is wrong on multiple levels. I do not want to deny you, Tenno - never the less I would like you to have access to all primes and drops, I was able to acquire.
But let me back up and see how much I can address your issues. (LIE) You have no other reason to do this. You don't give a damn if I, or any other player for that matter, get anything. All you care about is if YOU get something.

A) If something is obtainable, this does not make it special. Me or you having Saryn Prime/Telos boltor (examples), does not have the same weight as you know, either of us having Exca Prime, or anything like that (anniversary weps or those that won't be seeing an comeback, like Gorgon Wraith). Please do not confuse "harder to get" with "impossible to get". (Might be a lie.) "Special" is subjective, but you are arguing with me about this so it's obviously special to you.

B) Draco... Just because you would rather farm affinity in Draco, does not mean we all do. If this is the only valuable way you can see, for gaining rank - man you have some serious issues. (LIE) I am sick and tired of people going to Draco and saying "Oh I don't go to that foul affinity pool they call Draco. That's too mainstream. I do stealth missions" Like it's some guilty pleasure. We all Draco, you are not going to hell for it. Does it need to be fixed? Mmmmmm probably, but I don't know anybody that would take THE LONG way to higher mastery. And yes, I do have some serious issues, but so do you. You're crazy for asking DE to deny players content, and I'm crazy for arguing with you. That makes it a level playing field.

C) Irony and sarcasm. Many "veteran" players (I put on quotes, since actual vets are rare and do not give a damn), are mad. All the things they have done, all the battles they have won, all hours they have spended, are already questionable. DE can always change stuff, in way that will make that work undone in seconds (see the Lenses shenanigans, as they were the most recent - all players that wanted them fast, and lost an great amount of platinum because of that), and when players also want to "spit" on those efforts... It is can make many neutrals, salty as hell. (Lie) 1.DE makes sure you high rankers get your spotlight. There are other ways for rewarding Veterans than High MR walls. Vets have access to more planet nodes (and therefore more frames) they have more trades, they have higher syndicate caps, and let's not forget all the mods you got? I bet you have at least one primed mod in your arsenal right now. Now DE comes along with a powerful weapon and you want to keep it all to yourselves? 2. Don't you understand that "Lenses shenanigans" was a business strategy? Take the people's plat, then nerf it?  You NEVER buy something the minute it comes out. You give it some time. Why? Because there could be a hidden catch that you don't see. You wait for idiots who blindly bought it and see if they whine about it online. If many do, it's a bad product, but if they don't it's safe. I do that with every non-perishable thing I buy.

The other points you have mentioned "I can one shot" - the current state of game is, that you can kill anything with 80% of the arsenal, if you pay enough attention and dedication. Hell, I am pretty sure at least one player has made sword and shield work, even with the majority of us dropping those two weps. (Lie) If you don't have the right mods, no weapon can work. Regardless isn't the whole point of this game on "who can kill the most?/who can die the least?" Im curious on what you define as a "veteran" Please tell me on your next annoying response post. "I know the game", Tenno please. So much hidden stats, so many tricks, even if you have wiki opened up at all times - you will miss information, do not act like an #$&(%. (Lie) So you're saying that there is just too much for one person to know about Warframe? BWAAAAAAAHAHahaha! That's not true, it's a video game. not the meaning of life. and even if something new popped up that I didn't know already. I just have to wait for people with builds to pop up and brag about their brilliance while I quietly steal their idea.
"Trades shenanigans" - i will refer to point "A" again. (and I will refer to MY point on point A again.) If you can gain something in the game, with enough in game time (after all, syndicates only require time) (Technically truth, but is a terrible argument)  Unless you need to sacrifice potato.. then you go into your cryostasis pod and wait for the next event/invasion/baro visit. - this thing is not so special or valuable.(Then why are you arguing that not just anybody can have it?) If DE drops syndy melee at any point, at a rank below 15 - those weapons will be on the same price list as an cheap prime WF set. (Ah but that won't happen if you have your way now will it?) After all if you have enough power to bypass the Ranking, you will have enough power to acquire the weapon on your own. If it is beyond rank 15 - will you really care? ( YES! THAT IS WHAT THIS ARGUMENT IS ABOUT! A better question would be why YOU care if it is under 15MR? You can still get the weapon. The only difference would be other people would get the weapon as well. High rankers don't want average joe's to have syndicate weapons because it would make them feel under-worshiped by DE. )  You should have a polished melee at that point. ( The same argument can be said for you Mr. high rank.)  Only those who rush are willing to overpay something meager. (the stupid and impatient will do that too)  And yes, player that want to spend money, will always buy an Bo set for 100 plat (example), even if it is not worth the money. (DOES... NOT... MATTER. If They don't have the MR, you can't sell the syndicate weapon to them. I know this from experience. tried to sell a telos boltor to a guy and got a pop up saying that he wasn't high enough MR. In hindsight, I'm kinda thankful for this, it cracks down on swindlers who try to sell noobs weapons they can't even use.)   

  

Edited March 2, 2016 by CaterHowlett16

[(PSN)DBR87]

It took me week to get to MR 5, two weeks to get to MR 9 and a month later I was MR 19.

So I don't know, man. Most of my time was farming void survival and defense for gear. It was never  farming Draco until the end of MR 19...

So now that I am master race MR 21 I hope that DE LOCKS SYNDICATE MELEES BEHIND MR 18 AND A PRAY TELOS DRAGON NIKANA/SANCTI DRAGON NIKANA HAS 170 BASE DAMAGE WITH 50% CRIT AND A 4.5X BASE CRIT DAMAGE

Sarcasm aside, MR 10 is acceptable. I would rather they be MR 13 or 14. :/

[CaterHowlett16]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)DBR87 said:

It took me week to get to MR 5, two weeks to get to MR 9 and a month later I was MR 19.

So I don't know, man. Most of my time was farming void survival and defense for gear. It was never  farming Draco until the end of MR 19...

So now that I am master race MR 21 I hope that DE LOCKS SYNDICATE MELEES BEHIND MR 18 AND A PRAY TELOS DRAGON NIKANA/SANCTI DRAGON NIKANA HAS 170 BASE DAMAGE WITH 50% CRIT AND A 4.5X BASE CRIT DAMAGE

Sarcasm aside, MR 10 is acceptable. I would rather they be MR 13 or 14. :/

That was both funny and reasonable. 

Have an upvote good sir

[SilentCircle]

8 hours ago, AntoineFlemming said:

MR absolutely does NOT "reflect the relative strength of the gear they unlock." The fact that you even think that's what the system is based on is problematic.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I wrote "MR should reflect" and "asking for a system like that". That's pretty much the opposite of how you read it.

[Airwolfen]

Is a "high" MR lock like 16 really THAT bad? I don't think so. you can reach MR 21 at the moment (20 easy even if you miss a lot of the timed stuff) so its not like you would have to rank all current weapons.

Currently there is no drive to go beyond mr12. A friend of mine could do his Mr 14 test for over a month, But he did not do the test. why? There was no reason to. There just is nothing special about 12+ and there should be.

Mr should be re-balanced. The better the weapon the higher the mr requirement is. Create a drive for progression DE, a goal to play towards.

But untill then. Just play the game, and make sure you are always ranking stuff. Progression is a thing people. So if you want the shiny. Better start progressing.

[phoenix1992]

7 hours ago, CaterHowlett16 said:

  

I am really grateful on the fact, that you wend trigger happy on my post, and called me "liar", just because you feel like. My reason for wanting players to have the access, to things I was able to get, is pretty simple and egoistic - that means that more knowledge about this gear will be in the community pool (and I can use that knowledge, to you know - up my game), and that equipment is more likely NOT to be ignored when rebelancing pops up. I really give less of a damn about the special clubs, they do not give extra creds when completing a mission. 

You scratched all off my "draco" statement. Oh I am so sorry, that I prefer using better affinity mills, that provide different drops and different issues while playing. But you would know that, if you were playing with me - something you do not do. And did I mention spy runs? It is pretty darn time consuming and daunting, if you are not Loki or you do not give a damn about the spy segments in the current state. 

And overall your screaming and pondering. I already stated that MR 10-ish would be good enough, but as usual players either do not read the thread, but are busy screaming "liars, greedy, respect new players, etc etc". I pointed both points, since you know DE, would do whatever they feel like,  and in both scenarios there will be buthurted players. I am more concerned with the fact, that those weapons may turn out to be mastery fodder.

On the "sacrificing potato", modding and general issues you pointed out about "i can shoot".  This is your damn choise, and if you want to polish an weapon, you can do it pretty easy and cheap. I do not recall weapons that can work on mid-high tier without polish.

Edited March 2, 2016 by phoenix1992

[ShikiRen]

14 hours ago, knightsofsanghelios said:

I disagree, melee is nowhere near as useful or high-damage as primary or even secondary weapons.

 

Ok, stop right there. This is simply not true; not anymore, at least. Try using a melee weapon with 20%+ crit and the new body count and bloodrush mods; you can easily slice and dice through the Sortie 3 enemies with 1-4 hits after getting a 2x combo multiplier. You also don't need any ammo, can restore HP if you equip Life Strike, and if you want to Zerker will trigger every hit. Hell, you can even trigger Zerker with any melee almost 100% of the time now, thanks to Maiming Strike. They might be called bandaid mods by a lot of people in the community (and i agree when it comes to body count, that one should be baseline), but they get the job done, and melee weapon feedback is a lot better than most primary/secondary feedback so it is more fun, too.

Edited March 2, 2016 by ShikiRen

[Weidro]

3 hours ago, Airwolfen said:

Is a "high" MR lock like 16 really THAT bad? I don't think so. you can reach MR 21 at the moment (20 easy even if you miss a lot of the timed stuff) so its not like you would have to rank all current weapons.

Currently there is no drive to go beyond mr12. A friend of mine could do his Mr 14 test for over a month, But he did not do the test. why? There was no reason to. There just is nothing special about 12+ and there should be.

Mr should be re-balanced. The better the weapon the higher the mr requirement is. Create a drive for progression DE, a goal to play towards.

But untill then. Just play the game, and make sure you are always ranking stuff. Progression is a thing people. So if you want the shiny. Better start progressing.

even mr 18 is not bad if u consider the ammount of content we have currently (and u18.5 deploying soonTM)

we need definitly waaaay more stuff thats mastery rank locked to motivate players to progress further

[Rebellis]

MR is a joke. It should be renamed "Crafting Rank" and a new system based on XP earned through unlocking planet nodes, alerts, and other relevant gameplay instituted instead.

[CaterHowlett16]

4 hours ago, phoenix1992 said:

I am really grateful on the fact, that you wend trigger happy on my post, and called me "liar", just because you feel like.  My reason for wanting players to have the access, to things I was able to get, is pretty simple and egoistic - that means that more knowledge about this gear will be in the community pool (and I can use that knowledge, to you know - up my game), and that equipment is more likely NOT to be ignored when rebelancing pops up. I really give less of a damn about the special clubs, they do not give extra creds when completing a mission. 

You scratched all off my "draco" statement. Oh I am so sorry, that I prefer using better affinity mills, that provide different drops and different issues while playing. But you would know that, if you were playing with me - something you do not do. And did I mention spy runs? It is pretty darn time consuming and daunting, if you are not Loki or you do not give a damn about the spy segments in the current state. 

And overall your screaming and pondering. I already stated that MR 10-ish would be good enough, but as usual players either do not read the thread, but are busy screaming "liars, greedy, respect new players, etc etc". I pointed both points, since you know DE, would do whatever they feel like,  and in both scenarios there will be buthurted players. I am more concerned with the fact, that those weapons may turn out to be mastery fodder.

On the "sacrificing potato", modding and general issues you pointed out about "i can shoot".  This is your damn choise, and if you want to polish an weapon, you can do it pretty easy and cheap. I do not recall weapons that can work on mid-high tier without polish.

 Why did you not state that to begin with? I was trying to fight against people that wanted sydni's behind a unreasonably high MR wall (as I said in MY post). That was all you needed to say. Why did you waste your time with all those other points when you could have just said you agreed? 

and on a side note, I like to know how exactly you farm for affinity, if you don't do draco or SM's and I'm not screaming. I'm frustrated, but not that frustrated.

Edited March 2, 2016 by CaterHowlett16

[phoenix1992]

6 minutes ago, CaterHowlett16 said:

 Why did you not state that to begin with? I wasn't trying to fight against people that wanted sydni's behind a unreasonably high MR wall (as I said in MY post). That was all you needed to say. Why did you waste your time with all those other points when you could have just said you agreed? 

and on a side note, I like to know how exactly you farm for affinity, if you don't do draco or SM's

Dark sectors, invasions, MD and Sabotage in the Void. It is more profitable for me, and If I feel like it, I can rank up 10 weapons in one day (since, I usually do not rank up frames, there are not that many to begin with).  For some reason doing Sorties while attempting to rank up weapons does not work - the affinity gained is too small.

PS: My first post in this cluster... thing of a thread was the one with the MR, from then on it is spiral of quotes and unquotes.

Edited March 2, 2016 by phoenix1992

[CaterHowlett16]

16 hours ago, Weidro said:

or u can finaly sell the stuff to ppl who dont whine and *@##$ about plat and ppl who have plat dont dont need to destroy the prices and who are constantly underbidding each other

didnt even thought about that

I DEMAND HIGHER MR LOCKS on EVERYTHING

OR you can just say NO when the low rank underbids. Use some willpower, and just because a guys low rank doesn't mean he doesn't have plat.

[Weidro]

2 hours ago, CaterHowlett16 said:

OR you can just say NO when the low rank underbids. Use some willpower, and just because a guys low rank doesn't mean he doesn't have plat.

ok pls teach me how to prevent the 90% of the comunity who is constantly underbidding each other

since it dosnt belong in this topic just pm me how i can controll a few milion players with just willpower id rly like to know that

Edited March 2, 2016 by Weidro

[CaterHowlett16]

Just now, Weidro said:

ok pls teach me how to prevent the 90% of the comunity who is constantly underbidding each other

since it dosnt belong in this topic just pm me how i can controll a fewmilion players with just willopower id rly like to know that

Just.....say......no.... It's that easy. And If 90% of the community  is asking for a price below what you are asking, then they are not underbidding, you are just asking for a high price. Prices can change over time.

[Weidro]

Just now, CaterHowlett16 said:

Just.....say......no.... It's that easy. And If 90% of the community  is asking for a price below what you are asking, then they are not underbidding, you are just asking for a high price. Prices can change over time.

u dont understand the problem

everybody used to sell e.g. maxed heavy cal for 550-600 now its 150-200 BUT the effort to get it and to max it is exact the same

ppl are not underbidding me they are underbidding each other and destroying the prices by doing that

and maybe a mastery rank lock to tradable stuff (including mods) would help to minimize that problem

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

On 01/03/2016 at 5:08 PM, FunkadelicMayhem said:

HUH NO!!

 

 

DE please lock some stuff behind an MR wall!! Especially the people who have a bunch of prime stuff and still have not unlocked the solar map yet and as a result ask for a taxi everywhere and come into higher end missions with good gear and still dont know how to play the game.

Well of course they need to lock stuff higher. Some weapons should be MR20 and in final version MR30.

Mastery rank would have worked as progression system if stuff was properly distributed. Stuff like tonkor should be MR20, not 5. Syndicate melee will probably not be good enough for MR20. Probably between 6 and 12.