I Really, Really Love Valkyr, but... (I don't love being permanently invincible)

[Godiz]

inb4 rhino or inaros show up in this thread somehow

 

edit: rhino already showed up, i must be late to the party

Edited March 11, 2016 by GunDemon

[Zinthir]

18 minutes ago, Buzkyl said:

 

DE has always operated in cycles, when Valkyr is put back on the table, you will then see changes. DE has also said Saryn will be changed when the dust settles however we haven't had any major changes, does that mean it's not going to happen? No that means it's not happening right now. To operate under the reason "well it hasn't changed in so long so it's not going to change" makes little sense , by that reasoning, nothing has nor will change also a. Popularity is a very poor choice in determining the balance of a frame.

Valkyr was introduced in update 11, Melee mod scaling was introduced in Update 16.9, with her buff coming in U17.5.She went over 4 updates without any major buff of that magnitiude, however looking back you can see how long DE took to finally come back to her.

DE looks at what the players want the most 

As of now, Valkyr is so so far down the list of what the majority wants changed, it really doesn't even seem that a majority want her changed in the first place.

 

if Valkyr gets changed, it's going to be due to a major part of the game having changed. 

Also, if DE has any notion of changing a frame down the line, like Saryn, they say they're going to look into them. 

Valkyr had a mega thread after her change, and DE made no changes. The game has changed very little from 17.5 in terms of actual in-game mechanics, so for DE to make the random decision to look into Valkyr after already being pleased with how she turned out isn't like them.

You say "When she's put back onto the table", when really it's a big if right now. There are so many frames too weak and so many frames so much better than Valkyr that I would be very surprised if DE even came out and said that they're even planning on changing her at any point.

Also, popularity is a very big indicator on how good a frame is. The vast majority of players play frames based on what's best for the mission, rather than playing Excalibur because "I like swords". If a frame isn't popular, it's either insanely difficult, which no frame is, or it's because it's not as effective as other frames at pretty much everything.

 

Edited March 11, 2016 by Zinthir

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Welp there is no need to use hysteria in her in the first place as she has a pretty decent kit. The option to this is a basestat build including vitality, steel fiber(optional->naramon), primed flow, rage and QT. This doesn't only skyrocket her active health but also adds pretty badass health/energy management. Evrything else (++duration, -range, =duration, +range CC build, +++str, +duration warcry build) is optional to fit your needs... the big energy pool is guaranteed to fill up by itself, her first is cheap and paralysis is more or less free. The only ability that rly needs energy is warcry and that is manageable, even with negative efficiency. One could argue that god-mode is still stronger but this option offers divine CC played with the right weapon (mostly heavy weapons, jat kittag for example or scindo prime, weapons that offer a extend of CC in theyr stance or status. Still optional->naramon. Cloaking substains for the CC you'd need.) and in fact also outnumbers hysteria since body count made its way into the game (also due to the higher str and better finishers). The endresult is absolute controll over the battlefield and yourself on much better results.

 

Hysteria acts as panic button/rezz button on this playstyle. Seriously, don't like, don't play. Valkyr doesn't rely on it at all and even becomes significantly stronger not focusing on it. I'd also prefer a different take on hysteria (probably evry valkyr veteran does), one that boosts what she has without completely overwriting it but ya know, she works eather way... and having god mode is at least a nice option for beginners :P

Edited March 11, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[--DSP--]

The problem with OP stuff IMO is that people will also tell you to use it. But as far as I'm concerned, it really doesn't affect you since ppl will not just ignore you and not invite you if you use Valkyr. I know she is OP, but It is really hard to fix the invulnerbility :|

[crashapple12]

the idea's i ended up with for a valkyr suggestion were

 

Spoiler

 

Ripline

• enemies pulled by rip line are blinded "dazed" for 3 seconds
• holding down 1 will allow you to tether rip line to up to 5 targets
• using it while hysteria is active will auto finisher the first target to arrive
• can cast unhindered

war cry

• so long is warcry is active the slow is applied to enemies within its range following valkyr
• killing enemies with finishers restores a small amount of health to all allies affected by warcry
• possibly give allies 10-20% of her armor instead of +45% armor

Paralysis

• paralysis blinds enemies (this is more or less just a way to relatively easily bypass the whole ancient healers anti paralysis aura)
• holding down the paralysis will charge up paralysis for a larger cones
• at full charge enemy armor is reduced by 20% for 15 seconds and blind effect lasts longer

hysteria

• invincibility removed
• melee combo lasts 6-8 seconds(honestly i think PF and EB should to)
• slightly longer range
• +15% slide and -15% friction
• possibly damage resistance based on missing health

extra passive
damage only burns sheilds once she hits 10 hp

health at level 30 changed to 1000 or 1250 not sure which
armor reduced to 500

and a nerf to the "color correction"

probably a few things a bit overkill

Edited March 11, 2016 by crashapple12

[Evanescent]

Making hysteria have an unholy upkeep could also help, like chroma's effigy or inaros' sandstorm.

[crashapple12]

9 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

Making hysteria have an unholy upkeep could also help, like chroma's effigy or inaros' sandstorm.

those aren't unholy peacemaker is unholy

[Futurehero]

Here's my own version of a Valkyr rework:

 

Short version:

Passive attack speed and fire rate based on missing hp

QOL fixes for her 3 main skills

Hysteria reworked to be more about being used for killing and getting absurdly high melee combo multipliers than the always on, 0 risk  afk scrublord version it currently is.

 

Tell me what you think

[crashapple12]

On 3/10/2016 at 8:44 AM, Murkar said:

you are all using valkyr wrong, hysteria is there for life steal, thats it. Eternal war build, Naramon Crit'N'Cloak, and a Bloodrush Crit-erax(atterax) is her true power.

there should be no real wrong ability to use. and what happens if shadow step gets changed. there shouldn't be a true "correct" way to build the frame only more ideal ways to build them after all mods are rather subjective. its just like everyone who says don't like hysteria?, don't use it.... if we didn't like hysteria we would use a different frame

[(XBOX)x Deathcraft x]

I can play her just fine, I only use her for things where invincibility is needed, how else can you help team mates when they're down & swarmed by enemies? You don't have to use her ultimate if you don't want to, but it's there & is just an option when you're out of your league. Some players out there have different reasons for using her ability & imo, she doesn't need anything changed.

[EmptyDevil]

On 3/1/2016 at 5:32 PM, Gurpgork said:

I had been thinking of making a Valkyr thread similar to this, only with a lot of proposed changes alongside it, but ultimately decided against it. So thank you for making it. This is pretty much exactly what I've been thinking as someone who mained Valkyr until 17.5 came out.

That being said, talking about a problem and not offering solutions isn't productive. In the spirit of that notion, here are my proposed solutions for making Valkyr the demonic flurry of claws/personification of rage that she is supposed to be.

 

Hidden Content

 

Pretty good ideas.

[bubbabenali]

I think I'm not the first one to say this, but get yourself an Eternal War and have some fun while not invulnerable.

[Ryouhi]

I've always thought the best way to fix valkitties ult is removing the invincibility and insteas giving her X% Damage Redcution, making the ult more foxused ont anking using the life steal it gives.

You'd still be unkillable IF you actually keep attacking enemies, instead of getting "free" invincibility just for activating ult.

 

Only problem with a flat Damage reduction is scalability into lategame however, where that might not be enough to keep her alive.
 

[VolstMaster]

On 3/1/2016 at 2:15 PM, KaneAshe said:

...I had to stop playing her because she was ruining the game for me.

I love her concept, I love her aesthetics, I love having so much armor... But I do not love being permanently invincible.

Brief invincibility can feel fun and powerful, permanent invincibility makes everything in the entire game feel pointless--including the process of collecting new items and powering up your Warframe, seeing as how Valk doesn't really need any of that to render almost all of the game's legitimate content completely trivial.

Please note, this is not a "nerf" thread. I know portions of this community have an allergic reaction to any mention of nerfs or balance tweaking, so let's completely set aside all argument over whether or not Valkyr is "OP" or not. The real issue at stake for me is that I can't even have fun with the character that I want to play the most.

Permanently. Invincible. Is. Boring.

Where's the excitement in knowing that nothing you do really matters because there is nothing whatsoever an enemy can do to stop you? How is it fun to have the highest armor in the game AND built-in lifesteal (both major reasons for why I chose Valk in the first place) When You Do Not Even Take Damage?!

I want to play as the deadly cat-like meat grinder of rage who survives by continually mowing down enemies while shrugging off damage as long as she is able to continue killing things... not the walking godmode who wonders why she is even playing the game because enemies might as well all die as soon as she enters the level to save her the trouble of killing them.

I want to have an objective to what I am doing, and a reason to use my characters strengths, and for my character to actually have weaknesses that I have to work around. (...No, being melee is not weakness. Not when there is absolutely no risk to your health regardless of how much time you have to spend traveling to an enemy. The reason why melee is traditionally considered a weakness is because Melee Exposes You To More Damage. ...Well, not for Valk. End of side-rant.)

Please return the synergy to Valkyr's kit and make her gameplay engaging and exciting by whatever means necessary. Berserker gameplay should involve adrenaline. It's impossible to feel adrenaline when there is no threat and nothing at stake.

~Thank you from a player who wishes to be a Valkyr player.

You do realize that there are 2 major play styles to Valkyr right?

Hystaria and Warcry.

The Hystaria build is based around choke pointing and running into the fray to eliminate large hordes of enemies that pose a threat to your team's position, due to its energy drain duration and efficiency together to prolong your use is necessary, you need to not die and slaughter everything in sight like a rabid honey badger (try screaming like an idiot when u do that is a lot more fun).

The Warcry build is based around duration/range/armor/rage mods.  Its a more difficult build where Hystaria is your panic button not your primary skill.  Its a build that preferences the use of fast cleaving crit weapons like the dual Ichor or an aoe weapon such as the atterax.  This playstyle is based around moving through mobs pulling aggro while staying alive with Rage/Life strike attacks.

Hystaria is a double edged sword, if you get reckless like the zerker your supposed to be you can easily die when your in the middle of a horde when hystaria ends due to energy loss.

Valkyr having one of the only REMAINING INVINCIBILITY MECHANICS is a highly specialized frame, what your suggesting removes the only thing that allows Valkyr to do her thing....Invincibility is boring?  With the state of the enemies in the game currently I'm surprised they haven't brought back the classic iron skin for Rhino!  Not a nerf thread? call me crazy but

"The real issue at stake for me is that I can't even have fun with the character that I want to play the most.

Permanently. Invincible. Is. Boring."

All I see is NERF...and no not the dart gun company...also how is it permanent when you have to cast it and it has an energy drain?  Also this "God Mode" has some pretty hefty drawbacks bro.

Valkyr's kit IS synergistic it just adjusts to play style, if your play style isn't a crazy cat person running around screaming at the top of your lungs like the forum warrior you are....maybe your playing the wrong frame.  If you want to play a character who risks taking heavy damage while using melee, then I recommend you play Excalibur, Rhino, Ash, Chroma, or Frost, not Valkyr.

[.Murk.]

On 3/14/2016 at 3:24 PM, crashapple12 said:

there should be no real wrong ability to use. and what happens if shadow step gets changed. there shouldn't be a true "correct" way to build the frame only more ideal ways to build them after all mods are rather subjective. its just like everyone who says don't like hysteria?, don't use it.... if we didn't like hysteria we would use a different frame

I was mainly joking, you can play her however you want. People just tend to oversell hysteria, it's strong but it has limited range imo but I still said I use it for life steal and its great for tough single targets or reviving teammates. I like eternal war because I can buff my teammates armor/attack speed for the entire match without being anywhere near them since groups tend to get split up. And as far as a "correct" builds go, it's entirely based on what role you are trying to fill with said frame and how you want to play it, so most people will end up with one "perfect" build because it complements their play style and or their team composition.

[NeopetsMaster4432]

Valkyr comes across as a really selfish frame to me, and I think that alone is an issue in a Coop MMO like Warframe. All she offers to her team is an attack speed/armor buff and a method of revival which is trivial compared to large AoE CC skills.

Due to the state the game is in, pretty well any frame can survive indefinitely in sorties or any weaker content just by using Rage+Life Strike; but nearly any other frame will be more useful to a team due to having abilities which actually kill or CC enemies.

She's great if DE was trying to make a frame specifically for soloing, but that's about it. I definitely wouldn't be upset over a rework so long as they keep Rip Line.

Edited March 21, 2016 by NeopetsMaster4432

[Valar.Morghulis]

On 3/2/2016 at 3:32 PM, Gurpgork said:

I had been thinking of making a Valkyr thread similar to this, only with a lot of proposed changes alongside it, but ultimately decided against it. So thank you for making it. This is pretty much exactly what I've been thinking as someone who mained Valkyr until 17.5 came out.

That being said, talking about a problem and not offering solutions isn't productive. In the spirit of that notion, here are my proposed solutions for making Valkyr the demonic flurry of claws/personification of rage that she is supposed to be.

 

Hidden Content

 

Not offering up any solutions isn't necessarily a bad thing, its far worse to offer up bad solutions. I agree the that invincibility is a problem along with the lack of group utility makes her one of the few frames that i really dislike playing or playing with. Her only group utility is being a distraction/revive/group anchor and if Valkyr players would stay with the group that would be enough in a lot of cases but they often run amok. What makes it worse is when they do go down and they always do, they are 8 rooms away and unreviveable. This often cases a chain of events in witch other group members to go down trying to get to said Valkyr and often creates one of the few conditions that my friends and I have failed missions. 

It is sad that her only real claim to fame is being "invincible", i would personally like to see her the invincibility removed instead replace it with a damage reduction that affects group members within 60 meters (not affected by range mods) and scales up with the number of group members being affected by the aura.

 

On 3/2/2016 at 3:46 PM, tripletriple said:

Everytime I see a valkyr thread like this I can't help but think how egotistical the person on the other side must be.

What is boring to you is fun for others. Where is the alternatives to hysteria? Where are the other ideas to enhance her otherwise lack luster kit?

Where is your original and unique proposals to change her into an actual berserker? Nerf is a terrible word for valkyr. She needs buffs and a change to hysteria.

This is just a whining thread without those.

EDIT 

Just saw gurporks ideas. Great ideas there. Definitely would support that. My only addition would be to make ripline hit multiple targets.

Just because the are campaigning for a change doesn't necessarily mean they want a Nerf. The change could be part of a larger buff, if they gave her more group synergy at the cost of the Invincibility it would be a huge win for the Frame and the community. At this point she is one of the most un-group-friendly Warframes in the game.

[Mattoropael]

24 minutes ago, Valar.Morghulis said:

Just because the are campaigning for a change doesn't necessarily mean they want a Nerf. The change could be part of a larger buff, if they gave her more group synergy at the cost of the Invincibility it would be a huge win for the Frame and the community. At this point she is one of the most un-group-friendly Warframes in the game.

Really? I'm surprised.

All of the suggestions I've seen so far in this thread are about how to "balance" (read: nerf) Hysteria into oblivion. I've seen literally nothing in the entire thread that may enhance Valkyr's value as a teamplay Warframe.

Hell, all of this "NERF HYSTERIA" crap is begging to remove what little teamplay synergy Valkyr currently have, namely risk-free, 100%-success rate revives (well unless a nullifier comes along).

Edited March 21, 2016 by Mattoropael

[crashapple12]

3 hours ago, Murkar said:

I was mainly joking, you can play her however you want. People just tend to oversell hysteria, it's strong but it has limited range imo but I still said I use it for life steal and its great for tough single targets or reviving teammates. I like eternal war because I can buff my teammates armor/attack speed for the entire match without being anywhere near them since groups tend to get split up. And as far as a "correct" builds go, it's entirely based on what role you are trying to fill with said frame and how you want to play it, so most people will end up with one "perfect" build because it complements their play style and or their team composition.

it is true people over sell hysteria but some actual changes (like the slow being a constant effect rather than just being on cast, a larger health pool, a reliable paralysis and possibly damage resistance based on missing health) would actually make her a much better frame even with the lack of invincibility which is kinda the point to the thread

its not just that invincibility as a gameplay point is boring its also that the counter balance of the frame itself considering it has invincibility. as far as i'm concerned is not worth the trade off

for people that focus on hysteria you cant use the "rage" mod to maintain it for people who focus on warcry... well i said the counter balance for that is it only affects probably 10 enemies or less every 30+ seconds and believe it or not the slow itself (yeah people don't like to count it as a thing) would be incredibly good if it actually stuck with her... making it easier to get into melee things

and paralysis... well considering inaros's desiccation is basically paralysis only it functions properly,  paralysis could do with some work

[.Murk.]

54 minutes ago, crashapple12 said:

it is true people over sell hysteria but some actual changes (like the slow being a constant effect rather than just being on cast, a larger health pool, a reliable paralysis and possibly damage resistance based on missing health) would actually make her a much better frame even with the lack of invincibility which is kinda the point to the thread

its not just that invincibility as a gameplay point is boring its also that the counter balance of the frame itself considering it has invincibility. as far as i'm concerned is not worth the trade off

for people that focus on hysteria you cant use the "rage" mod to maintain it for people who focus on warcry... well i said the counter balance for that is it only affects probably 10 enemies or less every 30+ seconds and believe it or not the slow itself (yeah people don't like to count it as a thing) would be incredibly good if it actually stuck with her... making it easier to get into melee things

and paralysis... well considering inaros's desiccation is basically paralysis only it functions properly,  paralysis could do with some work

True Valk's abilities could use some tweaking, but invincibility is a very good trait for high level revives. Maybe they could make her channel efficiency go down the more damage you have stored up so you couldn't stay in it forever... recasting could be the death of you if not properly timed, and nullifiers already do a good job of reminding valk she can die. 

[crashapple12]

13 minutes ago, Murkar said:

True Valk's abilities could use some tweaking, but invincibility is a very good trait for high level revives. Maybe they could make her channel efficiency go down the more damage you have stored up so you couldn't stay in it forever... recasting could be the death of you if not properly timed, and nullifiers already do a good job of reminding valk she can die. 

if you wanted to keep the high level reviver thing just make her invincible only when reviving people

[.Murk.]

1 minute ago, crashapple12 said:

if you wanted to keep the high level reviver thing just make her invincible only when reviving people

seems tacky, whats wrong with the efficiency suggestion 

Edited March 21, 2016 by Murkar

[crashapple12]

Just now, Murkar said:

seems tacky

cant realy satisfy everyone when it comes to the invincibility. i personally find it hugely useful and i focus hysteria, since being able to get energy to maintain it (particularly since the energy leech eximus now affect toggles) i personally would find a larger health pool and damage resistance based on how much health she is missing would be far more useful

never underestimate the late game survival of damage resistance after all say what you want about the state of mesa right now, but shatter shield gives enormous amounts of survivability

[.Murk.]

3 minutes ago, crashapple12 said:

cant realy satisfy everyone when it comes to the invincibility. i personally find it hugely useful and i focus hysteria, since being able to get energy to maintain it (particularly since the energy leech eximus now affect toggles) i personally would find a larger health pool and damage resistance based on how much health she is missing would be far more useful

never underestimate the late game survival of damage resistance after all say what you want about the state of mesa right now, but shatter shield gives enormous amounts of survivability

But mesa's shatter sheild is a flat reduction, if you wanna test what high armor would be like try a max str, dur cold chroma with zenurik nrg gain using 2nd and 3rd abillities constantly which is basically what you are describing; I can tell you from personal experience that high armor and health isn't enough end level.

[crashapple12]

18 minutes ago, Murkar said:

But mesa's shatter sheild is a flat reduction, if you wanna test what high armor would be like try a max str, dur cold chroma with zenurik nrg gain using 2nd and 3rd abillities constantly which is basically what you are describing; I can tell you from personal experience that high armor and health isn't enough end level.

damage resistance based on how much health she is missing on top of her already high armor, yes i'm aware armor doesn't scale as well as flat damage reduction (though this is mostly because armor is still subject to damage 2.0 damage modifiers puncture, radiation and whatnot and even more so since armor's damage resistance has diminishing returns its barely worth getting armor past 1200 because of how much the damage resistance falloff is at that point

also inaros doesn't need invincibility does he mostly because of how much healing he has access to and his absolutely ridiculous health pool (especially since it makes kubrows unbelievably good at surviving having over 9000 health) and i will keep making comparisons to inaros because overall, since as a frame he is just better than valkyr whilst having similar intended gameplay

also add in the over 1k healing syndicate proc's on inaros  from good ole' sancti, telos, and vaykor 

Edited March 21, 2016 by crashapple12