How to Balance Shadow Step But Keep it Interesting

[ShinoKami007]

18 hours ago, Dragazer said:

Melee is already in a S#&$ hole as is. Guns outdamage and outrange melees by far.

Spoiler

Focus is advertised as powerful endgame abilities that require massive grind so the benefits should be great for the amount of work you put into it.

 

Spoiler

 

i guess you did not do melee after 80ish minutes in T3 survival
as for me in that survival, i was "one-shoting" little minions and for heavies it was a bit longer, the strongest was leech eximi but it didn't survived more than 30s

yes i was using and the aterax whip, oh and i was saryn, not even using any of her powers

Edited March 10, 2016 by ShinoKami007

[phoenix1992]

Not amused. Companions also allow invisibility. 
Maybe that is the point - there were always ways to get invisible, Shadowstep works the best out of all of them.

Guys... Again and again it has been proven, that melee has been used before the ShadowDebt mods.
You say it is broken like that. I disaggre. They try to fix melee with small range - here you go focus your builds to critical. I love that this is an option. I do not love that, people think that melee users use ONLY critical, or that systems should be nerfed because of that. Especially when that system is not that that good. You are not "loki" invisible, mobs know you are there, you can't have it all the time and you are not invulnerable.  It is solo used focus, and it works like an charm for what it is.

[ShortCat]

Here are 6 steps how to beat any content with ShadowStep:

• Step 1: Equip ShadowStep.
• Step 2: Equip any melee weapon with Maiming Strike. Orthos P with P Reach works best.
• Step 3: Equip your most beloved toys with Hush/Suppress mod.
• Step 4: In the game perform a quickmelee slide attack with 100% crit chance for guaranteed invisibility.
• Step 5: Keep spaming your staple abilities, like SnowGlobe, EV, MP or Blind; keep receiving the stealth multiplier on all your attacks; survive by being invincible invisible.
• Step 6: Profit?

[LilLemay]

Personally I think if they just took the stealth multiplier off of ShadowStep it'd be a lot better

[DiabolusUrsus]

23 hours ago, Dragazer said:

Not balanced for level 100s?

Please just stop right there. It looks like someone hasn't been playing the high level sorties.

Yeah, yeah, definitely not level 100.

I said Level 100+, to indicate that 100 is the current maximum level for standard play. That's also ignoring the fact that our current Level 40 is the previous Level 100, and power-creep being a problem is a huge part of the reason I wrote this thread to begin with. I've been playing sorties regularly since they came out, and I have to say that they only strengthen my desire for a less monotonous and simplistic end-game. 

23 hours ago, Dragazer said:

Yet zenurik restores the same amount of energy no matter the enemy level

Yet Madurai Provides the same damage bonus no matter the enemy level

Yet Vazarin revives and shields allies effectively regardless of enemy levels

You'll notice that I didn't say other Focus trees were perfect and not in need of some adjustment. This is just a thread about Shadow Step since I've used it the most extensively. I will point out that an energy shield given to allies every 5 minutes or so is not all that great of a benefit, though. The instant revives are where it's at. 

23 hours ago, Dragazer said:

Grind doesn't justify imba? 

Yeah tell that to any mmo developer. 

Its common sense that you should be rewarded more for the amount of work you put in. Its called progression

Yes, how dare I hold Warframe to a slightly higher standard than your formulaic lockbox MMO. And as I said... the hyperbole is real. I'm not arguing against progression. I'm arguing against unending progression towards a nebulous and undefined goal. Most games have a point at which progression stops. I hope that Warframe does the smart thing and stops it before we have to defeat enemies by stopping them from doing anything or else they'll kill us instantly in order to be challenged. Oh wait...

23 hours ago, Dragazer said:

There's no hyperbole, your suggested change will literally make it the most useless focus passive. 

There's no point in using it in low levels due to how fast and easy it is to finish missions and high levels its useless anyways due to enemy scaling.

Nobody wants to invest a large chunk of their time into something that barely makes a difference.

Like I said before Focus is meant to be an end game system. 

The huge grind and equally huge benefits are intended, it gives us something to work towards.

Maybe instead of crying for unneeded nerfs, we can fix other things such as Unairu being weaker when compared to the other focus trees.

No hyperbole? You're saying that a Shadow Step that still boosts your ability to survive by a decent amount until it starts to fall off in effectiveness at levels that aren't supposed to be balanced for anyway will be more useless than say, Madurai's Chimera Breath? I think you need a refresher on the definition of hyperbole and 'literally.' 

Where did I suggest that Shadow Step should barely make a difference? Since it's introduction I have seen a noticeable difference in my ability to avoid damage through Parkour 2.0 and the changes to enemy accuracy calculations. Even against Grineer. Changing Shadow Step into a powerful accuracy reduction would:

• Stack accuracy reductions from movement, protecting the player from most attacks but not AOE attacks.
• Give the player some relief from weapons fire while engaging in melee without giving them free-rein.
• Set a precedent for further player modifications regarding enemy accuracy. 

Maybe instead of making hyperbolic doomsday statements and worshiping the current state of a beta feature as perfect, we can try having a decent conversation?

[Kontrollo]

Just ignore those guys @DiabolusUrsus, it's clear the current implementation is broken.

 

I'd still like to have a response, though.

[DiabolusUrsus]

On 3/10/2016 at 6:01 PM, Kontrollo said:

Well, Shadow Step in its current form is OP at max rank, no doubt about that. It was OP even before the Shadow Debt mods, but they've clearly made it even better.

Now your suggestion here would definitely solve the part of the ability that is broken, so yeah why not. But I wonder, why not just reduce the time or implement one of the other, simpler suggestions that were made in the big thread?

Well, I haven't read any megathreads recently, so I can't comment on specific changes suggested there... but as for why I don't want to simply reduce its duration...

First and foremost, I'd like to see a broader variety of methods that we use for survival than hardcore CC or invisibility. Yeah, with most people who have finished existing content and occupy themselves by playing against overly-leveled enemies those things will always be the name of the game, but I think it would be nice if we could start working on a Warframe where the focus is not on micromanaging duration timers. Enemy accuracy reduction from movement has already made a noticeable impact on gameplay flexibility in my experience, so I think bonuses to that would be a good place to start. 

After the release of the minimap UI stealth improvements, I'd also like to see stealth missions played with frames other than Loki. That's an obvious exaggeration on my part, but my point is I'd like to see tweaks and refinements to AI detection, vision range, and other aspects of the stealth system so that players feel less compelled to take an invisibility crutch along. 

Lastly, simply reducing the duration would not solve the problem so long as the Shadow Debt mods are still a thing. It would just mean players would need to land attacks more often. As I've said elsewhere, I also think that the Shadow Debt mods need to be altered, but not until DE is ready to address weapon balance as a whole. 

[traybong111]

Current Shadow Step is basically a crutch. Though I cringe painfully, I can understand why people defend it, and it's not just because it feels good to be OP and untouchable. (But really if you're getting hit while in Shadow Step how did you even survive long enough to activate it?) 

The tinfoil hat-wearing part of me wonders if Shadow Step was some kind of band-aid before DE could close the gap between melee damage and gun damage (which scales much faster and more steeply thanks to multishot mods.) There's no way DE didn't know weapons like Anku, Atterax, Dual Cleavers/Ichor/Zorens, and Scindo P were reliably perma-critting/perma-berserking even before the addition of Blood Rush. Granting what is essentially perma-invisibility to melee weapons that they know sword-alone players prefer while also scaling those weapons' crit damage through the roof really do feel like an attempt to lighten melee's disadvantage (from both mod and range) compared to gun-use. 

I just wish DE'd hasten their efforts in Damage 3.0 that deals with "necessary" damage mods, since that would be the appropriate time to change Shadow Step. The longer they neglect a crutch, the more entitled and attached people will feel towards it. 

Edited March 11, 2016 by traybong111

[ShinoKami007]

23 minutes ago, traybong111 said:

The longer they neglect a crutch, the more entitled and attached people will feel towards it. 

game is still a beta and we all know that(?)

even after 5500hours, if something change drastically i'll not cry the crap out, because i know this game is subject to changes (eg: trin blessing nerf, that made a clan mate to stop playing)

if people do not understand that this game is half(?) developer and community driven, then someone is just closing eyes and ears

i, for one, started with loki, and i enjoyed that being invisible. i'm not a killer, i do if i must. i like to be invisible watching the team do the job while i disarm or whatever
invisibility is part of the game, take it or leave the game, no-one will regret !

although, i agree that shadow step activate very easily with maiming strike, maybe reduce the chance for it (shadow step) to proc

regards, 5hino

[-Temp0-]

On 08.03.2016 at 2:32 PM, DiabolusUrsus said:

Is it really nice to have for playing solo? Yes. Does that make it acceptable? No. 

Yeah here's the infinite answer to that - can't have fun in Warframe. Period. Too much fun? Nerf it into oblivion, make it another Unairu that no one level or uses.

Quote

Instead of granting invisibility, Shadow Step greatly reduces enemy accuracy, and reduces detection range on un-alerted enemies.

I didn't invest in 2 greater lenses and spent all thet time farming for that d*mn focus to throw the whole focus school in the garbage can because someone is having so much fun with naramon to the point of hating it. So here, have some hate comment.

And as a mainly solo player, I can say that those 10 seconds is not "infinite" invis, if you run just once out of it while not playing something like rhino or some crap and you get hit by even a lvl 70-80 enemy you're done for. You're always risking to run out of it since while you're invisible enemies just ignoring you it's hard to keep that invis going if no one is around to kill. So no. Just freaking no.

Quote

Not amused. Companions also allow invisibility. 

I'd prefer Ash's crappy 2 second invis over "companions" as they are absolute trash. Shade is horrible as he just doesn't do his job at all, kubrow is better but the usage of it is limited, it's pretty hard to get and maintain. So this is irrelevant and doesn't count as invis at all.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Nomen_Nescio

[-dicht.Amducias-]

On 3/10/2016 at 10:54 AM, ShinoKami007 said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

i guess you did not do melee after 80ish minutes in T3 survival
as for me in that survival, i was "one-shoting" little minions and for heavies it was a bit longer, the strongest was leech eximi but it didn't survived more than 30s

yes i was using and the aterax whip, oh and i was saryn, not even using any of her powers

Melee is bad compared to guns in every way, whoever is still clinching to the imagination that any melee could be superior to guns is just being wrong.. objectively wrong

[ClinkzEastwood]

1 hour ago, -dicht.Amducias- said:

Melee is bad compared to guns in every way, whoever is still clinching to the imagination that any melee could be superior to guns is just being wrong.. objectively wrong

My War deal 30k more damage on crit than my Synoid simulor's crit.

And it always crit.

And I didn't even mention red crit.

And it's not even the most damaging build.

Am I objectively wrong or what?

Edited March 11, 2016 by ClinkzEastwood

[-dicht.Amducias-]

27 minutes ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

My War deal 30k more damage on crit than my Synoid simulor's crit.

And it always crit.

And I didn't even mention red crit.

And it's not even the most damaging build.

Am I objectively wrong or what?

yes.. i played with so many people telling me that their melee is the best weapon and they outdamage anyone.. (war, dual ichor, prisma dual cleavers, galatine and nikana prime)

i outdamaged all of them easily..

[ClinkzEastwood]

14 minutes ago, -dicht.Amducias- said:

yes.. i played with so many people telling me that their melee is the best weapon and they outdamage anyone.. (war, dual ichor, prisma dual cleavers, galatine and nikana prime)

i outdamaged all of them easily..

Define "Objectively"

[-dicht.Amducias-]

1 hour ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

Define "Objectively"

i tried all the melee weapons with many different builds against all factions (mostly the heavy enemies of the factions but also some weak ones)

melee was every time inferior to my guns (ofc not the crap guns)

[ClinkzEastwood]

6 minutes ago, -dicht.Amducias- said:

i tried all the melee weapons with many different builds against all factions (mostly the heavy enemies of the factions but also some weak ones)

melee was every time inferior to my guns (ofc not the crap guns)

When you talk objectively, you talk about numbers, not how you feel.

No one gives two craps on how you feel.

[-dicht.Amducias-]

24 minutes ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

When you talk objectively, you talk about numbers, not how you feel.

No one gives two craps on how you feel.

how is it about how i feel if i tested guns and melees and my guns killed them faster every time? even with 3.5x multi on melee

[Nathrax]

4 hours ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

My War deal 30k more damage on crit than my Synoid simulor's crit.

You're really going to compare War to Simulor? The only way War gets anywhere near the damage output of Simulor is after a stupidly long ramp up period of your melee counter. Why go through all that trouble when I can just press the trigger twice and land 100k+ crits on mobs (no 4xCP and mob lvl 135+ mind you) in a large area ignoring walls? Don't even get me started on people using Tonkor with the new Acolyte event mods.

4 hours ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

And it always crit.

And I didn't even mention red crit.

And it's not even the most damaging build.

Red crits? Sounds like Dread... Anyone else remember that bow nobody uses anymore?

"It's not even the most damaging build"... Doing a red crit build with War severely limits the choice of mods you can use so the amount of damage difference is negligible.

[DiabolusUrsus]

6 hours ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

Yeah here's the infinite answer to that - can't have fun in Warframe. Period. Too much fun? Nerf it into oblivion, make it another Unairu that no one level or uses.

I didn't invest in 2 greater lenses and spent all thet time farming for that d*mn focus to throw the whole focus school in the garbage can because someone is having so much fun with naramon to the point of hating it. So here, have some hate comment.

And as a mainly solo player, I can say that those 10 seconds is not "infinite" invis, if you run just once out of it while not playing something like rhino or some crap and you get hit by even a lvl 70-80 enemy you're done for. You're always risking to run out of it since while you're invisible enemies just ignoring you it's hard to keep that invis going if no one is around to kill. So no. Just freaking no.

Except 'fun' is the point on which we disagree. Personally, I don't find chopping up hapless enemies that can't defend themselves much fun. 

Monetary investment into a feature - especially a beta feature, that DE has warned you is subject to radical change - does not entitle you to preventing the feature from changing. It's not that I'm having so much fun with Naramon that I hate it... it's that I'm not having fun with it. 

As someone who has used Shadow Step extensively in both solo and team environments, I've got practically infinite invisibility and my Shadow Step isn't even maxed. The only times I've run into situations where I don't have enough available targets to keep invisibility up have been in the middle of Spy vaults and between Defense waves, and more recently in the reactor rooms for Sabotage 2.0. If you're running Spy you probably have some sort of stealth ability anyway, and if you're running Defense you likely have a Snow Globe to hide in. The Sabotage 2.0 problem is solved (somewhat) by triggering the alarms before going in. 

[ClinkzEastwood]

4 hours ago, Nathrax said:

You're really going to compare War to Simulor? The only way War gets anywhere near the damage output of Simulor is after a stupidly long ramp up period of your melee counter. Why go through all that trouble when I can just press the trigger twice and land 100k+ crits on mobs (no 4xCP and mob lvl 135+ mind you) in a large area ignoring walls? Don't even get me started on people using Tonkor with the new Acolyte event mods.

Red crits? Sounds like Dread... Anyone else remember that bow nobody uses anymore?

"It's not even the most damaging build"... Doing a red crit build with War severely limits the choice of mods you can use so the amount of damage difference is negligible.

Sigh.

*Whip out calculator*

Considering bias for crit damage using bladed round instead of argon scope for synoid simulor:

Damage on headshot crit with serration, heavy cal, point strike, vital sense, 2x elemental, bladed round and vile acceleration:

(4.15*225+4.15*(225*1.8))*6.8*4=71114

Damage with common War build using pressurepoint, bloodrush, bodycount, organ shatter, berserker, 2x elemental and primed reach at 3x combo:

(2.2*140+2.2*(140*1.8))*3.8*3=9831

Using cleaving whirwind with it's broken bull combo:

9831*4*2=78648

Using tempo royale with it's bold reprise combo, if headshot:

9831*5*4=196620

As you can see, common War build's yellow crit still outdamage the crit damage bias from synoid simulor, and unlike Synoid Simulor, War always crit, and can even reach constant red crit if using optimised damaging build.

Also I outdamaged people using Shadow debt Tonkor in sortie before. 

And the reason no one uses Dread now because Rakta Cernos can reach 100% critchance with shadow debt mods now.

 

Edited March 12, 2016 by ClinkzEastwood

[ShinoKami007]

21 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

It's not that I'm having so much fun with Naramon that I hate it... it's that I'm not having fun with it.

then why you do not just switch to another school, please, ffs

 

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

1 hour ago, ShinoKami007 said:

then why you do not just switch to another school, please, ffs

 

This. Thank you. All those clowns complaining that endgame system that takes months to max is actually not completely useless. 

[Kontrollo]

On 11.3.2016 at 4:26 AM, DiabolusUrsus said:

Spoiler

Well, I haven't read any megathreads recently, so I can't comment on specific changes suggested there... but as for why I don't want to simply reduce its duration...

First and foremost, I'd like to see a broader variety of methods that we use for survival than hardcore CC or invisibility. Yeah, with most people who have finished existing content and occupy themselves by playing against overly-leveled enemies those things will always be the name of the game, but I think it would be nice if we could start working on a Warframe where the focus is not on micromanaging duration timers. Enemy accuracy reduction from movement has already made a noticeable impact on gameplay flexibility in my experience, so I think bonuses to that would be a good place to start. 

After the release of the minimap UI stealth improvements, I'd also like to see stealth missions played with frames other than Loki. That's an obvious exaggeration on my part, but my point is I'd like to see tweaks and refinements to AI detection, vision range, and other aspects of the stealth system so that players feel less compelled to take an invisibility crutch along. 

Lastly, simply reducing the duration would not solve the problem so long as the Shadow Debt mods are still a thing. It would just mean players would need to land attacks more often. As I've said elsewhere, I also think that the Shadow Debt mods need to be altered, but not until DE is ready to address weapon balance as a whole. 

 

I'm talking about the big thread that had to be cleaned several times because people couldn't keep it civil. It's been very prominent in this subforum but died down in the end.

Thanks for this, it's what I felt was missing in your OP. Just that last part: I think it should be possible to balance the duration of the current implementation, but you make a good point for an alternative approach as well.

 

22 minutes ago, (PS4)Lord_Gremlin said:

1 hour ago, ShinoKami007 said:

then why you do not just switch to another school, please, ffs

This. Thank you. All those clowns complaining that endgame system that takes months to max is actually not completely useless. 

Ah yes, the good old "don't like it don't play it" non-argument, spiced up with an ad-hominem. You're really making a great case on why Shadow Step should be kept as is.

[LazyKnight]

What is the point of this passive ability anyway? Is it supposed to be used during spy missions (or any other mission done covertly) to allow non-stealth frames a method of witness disposal? If that's the case, then it could be change to trigger on a stealth kill take down (the one with the attack prompt) and still be useful.  

I sorta of want to invest in Naramon for the critical chance bonus, but It seems way too good compared to the others. I picked Unairu...I should have read up before I did that quest.

Edited March 12, 2016 by LazyKnight
Typos

[BornWithTeeth]

Shadow Step does need some form of rebalancing, but the OP's suggestion is a completely atrocious overreaction. Permanent invisibility while in melee combat is indeed a bit overpowered....but changing it to "You'll get hit slightly less often" would just render it completely, utterly, and totally worthless. Terrible, terrible suggestion.