Is high mobility the only way to play?

[-InV-igo95862]

3 minutes ago, Knaimhe said:

Parkour 2.0 significantly revised Warframe's movement engine and established new precedents for verticality.
Let's not trivialize it as "a remedy to coptering".

Verticallity is absolutely same if you used Tipedo for aerial attack. The only real gain is infinite wall run.

The best example on how conservative the new system is that there were not a single change to maps related to parkour changes. New parkour was completely playable on all existing maps which is good and at the same time shows that it has a lot common with previous system.

[Zerga-08]

On 3/11/2016 at 6:45 PM, TheLocalHentai said:

He's saying he'll quit because technically separating PvP from PvE so everyone has equal stats (like every other MP game) and making it appealing for everyone instead of "hardcore" gamers, isn't for him. 

I'll quit because it will gut a part of the game that makes it unique. Taking out mobility options will make this a slow paced tactical shooter, if anyone wants to play that they will play GRP, which does it better than Warframe ever will. Warframe should be playing to its strengths, which is mobility and twitch gameplay, not cover and slow gameplay. Removing mobility will not add more players, it will just alienate the majority of the current players.

Edited March 14, 2016 by [DE]Danielle
Removed insult

[SevenLetterKWord]

22 minutes ago, igo95862-LookingForClan- said:

Verticallity is absolutely same if you used Tipedo for aerial attack. The only real gain is infinite wall run.

The best example on how conservative the new system is that there were not a single change to maps related to parkour changes. New parkour was completely playable on all existing maps which is good and at the same time shows that it has a lot common with previous system.

First of all, bullet jumping is infinitely more flexible than Tipedo up-aerials.
Secondly, verticality is not just about getting to high elevations.
Under Parkour 1.0, what could you do once you got up in the air? You didn't have time to accomplish much before falling to the ground.
With 2.0, the addition of features like aim gliding gave players more control over their air time and momentum, allowing them to make better use of attained altitude.
As for wall-running, the previous system was clumsy; 2.0's changes to wall-based movement allowed players to better navigate along walls.

Of course maps remained the same, besides some raised ceilings and repositioned ziplines.
I don't know what kind of magical environmental change you were expecting.
Parkour is not about moving your environment, it's about moving through your environment.
Why would a new parkour system change the existing environment?
Even if Warframe were to change to a cover-shooter, that could be done without altering map geometry. Significant changes to movement and navigation can be made without changing maps. It's illogical to conclude that Parkour 2.0 is insignificant because it didn't result in the extensive rearrangement of physical map elements.
(And many post-Parkour 2.0 tilesets do encourage players to exercise their new mobility options.)

Edited March 13, 2016 by Knaimhe

[-InV-igo95862]

8 minutes ago, Knaimhe said:

With 2.0, the addition of features like aim gliding gave players more control over their air time and momentum, allowing them to make better use of attained altitude.

This is just improvements to existing system. You can place aim glide in parkour 1.0 with no issues.

36 minutes ago, Knaimhe said:

As for wall-running, the previous system was clumsy; 2.0's changes to wall-based movement allowed players to better navigate along walls.

Wall running was removed. Parkour 2.0 has a jumping along walls. And its worse for navigating long walls. One small ledge and you are stuck.

56 minutes ago, Knaimhe said:

(And many post-Parkour 2.0 tilesets encourage players to exercise their new mobility options.)

Give examples.

Lets compare conclave maps.

First, thing I see is a removal designated places to wall run horizontally. Probably because running horizontally is useless.

Second, the maps became more open. Parkour 2.0 is way better at flying through large spaces.

43 minutes ago, Knaimhe said:

Parkour is not about moving your environment, it's about moving through your environment.

This there pakour 2.0 shows why it not a parkour. You are not moving through the environment, you are flying through the air.

Here is the basic mechanics.

1). Chose there you want to go.

2). You make a move that gives you air momentum. (copter/air melee or now bullet jump/roll)

3). Fly to there you wanted to go.

The principle is same for coptering or parkour 2.0

 

What would be a completely new system? Look at the original trailer:

Instead of flying through level you would have had to use walls in order to climb upward.

[ThePredicament]

On 3/12/2016 at 11:05 PM, Zerga-08 said:

I'll quit because it will gut a part of the game that makes it unique. Taking out mobility options will make this a slow paced tactical shooter, if anyone wants to play that they will play GRP, which does it better than Warframe ever will. Warframe should be playing to its strengths, which is mobility and twitch gameplay, not cover and slow gameplay. Removing mobility will not add more players, it will just alienate the majority of the current players.

Did I even say take out mobility? No, I didn't, so learn to read, so maybe that "new brand of idiocy" is yours to begin with. There's a difference between bullet jumping, wall running, and the regular stuff, and exploiting momentum.

And even then, you grossly misunderstand what balance should be in a game to draw people in versus pandering to the twenty or so players. Keep that hyperbole in check, mate. Point still stands, if you quit, more people will join in.

[SevenLetterKWord]

17 hours ago, igo95862-LookingForClan- said:

This is just improvements to existing system. You can place aim glide in parkour 1.0 with no issues.

So? It's still true that aim gliding was introduced by Parkour 2.0. Let's not be arguing semantics here.
 

17 hours ago, igo95862-LookingForClan- said:

Wall running was removed. Parkour 2.0 has a jumping along walls. And its worse for navigating long walls. One small ledge and you are stuck.

"Jumping along walls" is functionally identical to wall running. You want to redefine the concept just because the animation changed?
Outcroppings can be jumped around due to the introduction of the double-jump. You're only "stuck" if you're unable to utilize the full potential of Parkour 2.0.
 

17 hours ago, igo95862-LookingForClan- said:

Give examples.

Well first of all, there's what you said: "the maps became more open."
And then there are the new spy vaults to be considered, especially the ones on the moon.
 

17 hours ago, igo95862-LookingForClan- said:

This there pakour 2.0 shows why it not a parkour. You are not moving through the environment, you are flying through the air.

The principle is same for coptering or parkour 2.0

Flying through the air is a constituent of moving through the environment.

And again, "bullet jumping is infinitely more flexible than Tipedo up-aerials" or coptering.
Could you aerial attack while standing on the ground? No.
Could you aerial attack downwards? No.
Could you act immediately out of an aerial attack? No.
Could you freely choose your melee weapon if you relied on aerial attack momentum? No.
 

17 hours ago, igo95862-LookingForClan- said:

What would be a completely new system? Look at the original trailer:

Instead of flying through level you would have had to use walls in order to climb upward.

Is there a specific part of the video you wanted to focus on?
Mostly I'm just seeing wall running. "Use walls in order to climb upward"? That's wall running. You can wall run.
 

17 hours ago, TheLocalHentai said:

Did I even say take out mobility? No, I didn't, so learn to read, so maybe that "new brand of idiocy" is yours to begin with. There's a difference between bullet jumping, wall running, and the regular stuff, and exploiting momentum.

Yes, you did want to restrict mobility. See here:

Spoiler

On 3/11/2016 at 1:29 PM, TheLocalHentai said:

Scrap the whole thing and just have everyone as... a specialized conclave frame with fairly limited movesets

You specifically admitted that mobility would be "limited".
♪ Don't act like you forgot. ♫

 

17 hours ago, TheLocalHentai said:

And even then, you grossly misunderstand what balance should be in a game to draw people in versus pandering to the twenty or so players. Keep that hyperbole in check, mate. Point still stands, if you quit, more people will join in.

"Keep that hyperbole in check, mate", he says.
"twenty or so players", he says.

☺

Edited March 13, 2016 by Knaimhe

[CandyDragon]

Not to be harsh. But to put it bluntly. If you cannot handle the movement mechanics, it isn't warframe's fault that you are currently lacking in that department. Demanding it changed so your slower, less involved style of play is viable is rather lazy.  

There are countless other shooters out there that present a slower paced game, you can quite easily go to those for your fix. 

 

 

 

[Nighttide77]

12 hours ago, Pythadragon said:

Quake, Unreal Tournament, Tribes all incentivize people to move as fast as possible while shooting as accurately as possible. This is simply a different style of game.

If UT had aim gliding, omg... Some iterations had double jumping...rocket jumping is technically bullet jumping...psh...

9 hours ago, igo95862-LookingForClan- said:

Those games have AoE weapons. In warframe those weapons go from overpowered to useless in from patch to patch partially because how they eliminate the advantage of mobility.

We just finally got the Penta-series to have damage drop off and buffed to a reasonable place, which now makes more AOE weapons viable and not cheap. I'm certain with more time we'll get more AOE.

One might say shotguns with their spread, along with low accuracy autos, eliminate the advantage of mobility, too.

[ThePredicament]

9 minutes ago, Nariala said:

Not to be harsh. But to put it bluntly. If you cannot handle the movement mechanics, it isn't warframe's fault that you are currently lacking in that department. Demanding it changed so your slower, less involved style of play is viable is rather lazy.  

There are countless other shooters out there that present a slower paced game, you can quite easily go to those for your fix. 

 

 

 

See ULTRA high mobility wouldn't be a problem if there were actual servers that tended to the PvP component but there aren't any and your guess is as good as anybody else's if there ever will be. The netcode does not match the mobility that the game provides.

Besides, why wouldn't it be warframe's fault? There's a roll momentum exploit in the game's mobility. It's better to change one part (PvP) instead of both parts (PvP and PvE).

[-InV-igo95862]

4 hours ago, Knaimhe said:

And again, "bullet jumping is infinitely more flexible than Tipedo up-aerials" or coptering.
Could you aerial attack while standing on the ground? No.
Could you aerial attack downwards? No.
Could you act immediately out of an aerial attack? No.
Could you freely choose your melee weapon if you relied on aerial attack momentum? No.

Yes, bullet jump is improved Tipedo aerial. Its is better but calling it entirely new system is false.

4 hours ago, Knaimhe said:

Well first of all, there's what you said: "the maps became more open."
And then there are the new spy vaults to be considered, especially the ones on the moon.

Maps became more open because parkour 2.0 is good at traversing large open areas. Just as coptering was.

All three moon vaults are just a speed run corridors.

The biggest issue with parkour 2.0 is that there is no depth in to it. You just press couple button, learn couple move combos and then you fly around.

If you want to see  a real parkour game take a look at Mirror's Edge

In this game you can't actually fly around skipping entire levels.

[SevenLetterKWord]

16 minutes ago, igo95862-LookingForClan- said:

Yes, bullet jump is improved Tipedo aerial. Its is better but calling it entirely new system is false.

Yes, you're going to be able to find an analogue for any feature of Parkour 2.0.
If it had included teleporting, you could say "That's not new, that's just an extension of Nova's Worm Hole."
These comparisons quickly become meaningless.
The improvements of bullet jump over aerial attacks are significant enough to qualify it as a new feature.

 

16 minutes ago, igo95862-LookingForClan- said:

Maps became more open because parkour 2.0 is good at traversing large open areas.

Okay, so it's a change in map design due to the existence of Parkour 2.0.
That's exactly what you asked for.

 

16 minutes ago, igo95862-LookingForClan- said:

All three moon vaults are just a speed run corridors.

That's an egregious trivialization of the complexity of the moon vaults.
That aside, you must be forgetting the "Training Arena" vault.

 

16 minutes ago, igo95862-LookingForClan- said:

The biggest issue with parkour 2.0 is that there is no depth in to it. You just press couple button, learn couple move combos and then you fly around.

What an empty statement.
"The biggest issue with [Super Smash Bros. Melee] is that there is no depth in to it. You just press couple button, learn couple move combos"

Are you in some sort of nihilistic mood today? "Nothing matters. Everything is basic."

 

16 minutes ago, igo95862-LookingForClan- said:

If you want to see  a real parkour game take a look at Mirror's Edge

In this game you can't actually fly around skipping entire levels.

Mirror's Edge is a whole game based around parkour.
It's unreasonable for you to expect Warframe to contain itself and Mirror's Edge, just like it would be unreasonable to expect Mirror's Edge to have Warframe-level shooter combat.

Also, you're severely mistaken if you think anyone is going to watch a full-hour video just so you can make a point. You ought to be pointing out specific sections, not throwing out a mass of aimless content and hoping that everyone else will do the work for you.

[Gelkor]

On 3/11/2016 at 9:59 PM, alexmach1 said:

I wonder what would happen if DE triples all frame's health and shield values and removes bullet jump and slide, to see if slower gameplay works out better.

Then it would be like every other shooter out there, pvp or otherwise, I like high mobility gameplay, that's why I play Warframe.

[ThePredicament]

You want proof of it being imbalanced? People can easily run away, with those wielding hitscan weapons having a much more easier time chasing down those who do, those that don't, especially some selections of weapons like bows will have a much harder time. Not to mention, weapons with charge rates CANCEL during aerial rolls. That's imbalanced, especially since weapon selection is defined by the player's progress in PvE. Hosts have a much higher advantage and can easily exploit it during matches; due to the lack of dedicated servers and/or bad netcoding, it's much more pronounced.

You want proof of it being a momentum exploit? It's mechanically the same thing as coptering, gain momentum, use external force. Coptering was deemed a bug that people exploited for faster speeds. There are TONS of sections in the main game that can be fully bypassed because of the momentum gained from aerial rolling. Why is it a bug? Because  rolling behaves the same EXACT way in the air as on the ground, gliding and rolling back and to the sides is proof of that.

Edited March 14, 2016 by [DE]Danielle
Removed antagonizing comment

[Komodo_Saurian]

Quote

The gamemode would lose it's hardcore competitive playerbase

Oh, you mean one-trick guys like this?

Good riddance then.

As long as "who can spam ctrl+space faster" determines a victor in all 1v1 situations because lag and hitboxes make you effectively immortal for the duration it's going to remain bad.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Komodo_Saurian

[Phasedragon]

2 minutes ago, Komodo_Saurian said:

Good riddance then.

As long as "who can spam ctrl+space faster" determines a victor in all 1v1 situations it's going to remain bad.

except it's not, nor has it ever been that way. Maybe if you're just standing there, making yourself an easier target, of course someone making themselves hard to hit will win. However, if both players have even the slightest idea of mobility, aim is what really counts.

[Zerga-08]

 

19 hours ago, TheLocalHentai said:

You want proof of it being imbalanced? People can easily run away, with those wielding hitscan weapons having a much more easier time chasing down those who do, those that don't, especially some selections of weapons like bows will have a much harder time. Not to mention, weapons with charge rates CANCEL during aerial rolls. That's imbalanced, especially since weapon selection is defined by the player's progress in PvE. Hosts have a much higher advantage and can easily exploit it during matches; due to the lack of dedicated servers and/or bad netcoding, it's much more pronounced.

You want proof of it being a momentum exploit? It's mechanically the same thing as coptering, gain momentum, use external force. Coptering was deemed a bug that people exploited for faster speeds. There are TONS of sections in the main game that can be fully bypassed because of the momentum gained from aerial rolling. Why is it a bug? Because  rolling behaves the same EXACT way in the air as on the ground, gliding and rolling back and to the sides is proof of that.

Non-hitscan weapons, especially bows are suppose to be hard to use, but in turn they are rewarding, usually with high damage output (though that reward gets less every few updates with people crying "bows op nerf plz"). Charge weapons cancel whether you are in the air or not, not sure where you were going with that. Rolling in general must be an exploit if it cancels charging all around. Again, lack of servers is not a reason to gimp mobility. I will say again, two wrongs don't make a right. How exactly is rolling in mid air a bug? Has DE said anything about that being a bug. My guess is nope, unlike coptering which they themselves said was unintentional. All you say as "proof" is that you can roll in the air. Not exactly compelling proof.

[[DE]Danielle]

Cleaned thread of unnecessary personal attacks, name calling, and generally disruptive posts. Please stay on topic and be respectful. 

[Misgenesis]

Non PvP player here. Thats the impression i got when i played a few matches against my friend. Both of us wouldnt stop moving and if either did, it was death.

Now i played on 3 maps, Grineer galleon, Phobos and Uranus. All three were small and i think thats where the problem lies in.

It needs more open ended maps, a complete redo of the maps to make them bigger with smaller sideways to still make use of parkour.

[RadYogh]

On 3/12/2016 at 1:24 AM, MobyTheDuck said:

Recently I'm only getting this kind of PVP games, players with every single mobility mod and snipers/lever-action rifles.

They bullet jump and bounce across every wall at ludicrous speed, quickshot away half of your health and fly away. If they do get hit, they just bullet jump and fly at light speed, making you need an almost aimbot-like accuracy to hit.

Deathmatch turns into 'lets hope someone with low mobility shows up on the enemy' and CTF turns into 'lets hope our Cephalon timer runs out after theirs'

Anything with less mobility/speed than 1 and that cant jump across the map in a single bullet jump cant do almost anything to keep up.

Well... This is one of the main reasons why I don't play warframe PvP anymore. I mean - I like high mobility and stuff, but not this ridiculous amounts of it with all the bullet-jumps and other things, while some frames are much-much slower.

The first version of warframe PvP 2.0 was a lot better, when it had only slide-attack that gave you realy good speed, but you was limited to near-ground movement, and you couldn't constantly shoot... and when there was Lex, that allowed you to 2-hit kill enemies... and it wasn't so east to run away after a first hit, before you get second hit..

Right now there are no alternatives to "maximum mobility" and constant wall, bullet, etc. jumps...

[Lordricker]

You can play tank frames, some of you seem to miss the fact that moving around at such high speeds greatly effects your accuracy. If you play a tank that doesnt move quite as much and are able to aim well then you should be able to take some people down.

[Nighttide77]

3 minutes ago, Lordricker said:

You can play tank frames, some of you seem to miss the fact that moving around at such high speeds greatly effects your accuracy. If you play a tank that doesnt move quite as much and are able to aim well then you should be able to take some people down.

At the same time, one who can't move fast enough to finish off a mobile target only benefits from a bit more invincibility. At the moment, Deathmatch and CTF objectives favor moving faster than the opponent more than surviving. When we get king of the hill and/or domination and/or attack-defend modes, I think we would see a surge in a larger number of players using tankiness to "hold the line".

[Lordricker]

yea i agree, i didnt say you would win :P i said take a few down XD. But it is a playable alternative.

[Leyers_of_facade]

Well, to be honest, sometimes I use saryn in conclave rather than the mirage I like the most.. Reason is because it is still a good chunk tankier in general and the extra tankiness allows me to stay alive a bit longer against auto spammers (giving me a better chance to counter kill them by a making them into a painting with daikyu). Fast mobility fight also makes it a lot harder to aim and thus I think fast mobility isn't exactly the only way to play.

[Chroia]

11 hours ago, 14159265358979323846 said:

Fast mobility fight also makes it a lot harder to aim and thus I think fast mobility isn't exactly the only way to play.

Moving less makes it easier to aim.

It also makes you easier to hit.

Does it make aiming (at someone who's bouncing off the walls) easier-enough to be worth how much easier to hit you are?

Not in my experience, FWIW.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Chroia
Better phrasing.

[Leyers_of_facade]

1 hour ago, Chroia said:

Moving less makes it easier to aim.

It also makes you easier to hit.

Does it make aiming (at someone who's bouncing off the walls) easier-enough to be worth how much easier to hit you are?

Not in my experience, FWIW.

I am using daikyu usually, if I hit my target, the damage my tankish saryn takes is usually worth it, as most auto rifle spammer pubs are not that accurate in their aiming.

Against good players however, I would use my mobility gear - mirage-, because if it is a sniper / bow, the damage I take can be severe during the time I move less.