Let's Take A Page Out Of Destiny

[(PSN)eruccm]

I played Destiny from day 1. Believe me when I tell you this, NEVER let anything Destiny does come to this game..

OK, Grass is always greener on the other side... I play both games. Destiny was (I stress, WAS) a great game, and if we only look at the gun play, it still is..BUT along with the Taken King expansion, us year one players lost everything... all our favorite guns, armor and sentimental pieces that took hours to obtain...all to be left behind. We got one RAID, and lost two, we got 4 new strikes, and lost 6! all of year one lost in an instant.. Leveling system destroyed, no loot tables, a grind worse than any game before it... We were powerful in yer one, we were gods with guns... now we cower in behind things, and snipe, too weak to face anything head on.All with NO matchmaking on endgame content?. Destiny ripped the sole out of itself to feed Activision's greed.

Warframe offered me loot tables, clearly defined goals, and a weapon system that enabled me to take ANY gun and make it as powerful as I want.Matchmaking!! OMG matchmaking! I have 15 fully cooked warframes in my foundary! can't choose which to use next.. I have differing weapons not reskins of old ones, Kubrows, sentinals, and god damed trading! yer Destiny... TRADING!

Ultimately from a person who plays both... Destiny has the best gun play on any platform anywhere.. But that's it, nothing more... This community is one of the best communities I have been part of. The Destiny community is so toxic, (not everyone) that it drives more players away than it attracts. Comparing these games is like apples and oranges, BUT please leave Warframe the way it is. Don't let anything "Destiny" happen here..

Just my opinion, Thanks,

[(PSN)FunyFlyBoy]

On 3/11/2016 at 7:04 AM, Ailith said:

You want more difficult sorties? Campaign for DE to improve enemy AI instead.

Being one-shotted by lvl 100+ enemies while having no shields, no energy, and dealing practically no damage sounds like a waste of time, not "fun".

DE can't build smarter enemies because of how Warframe works sadly. What's the point of smarter AI when Tenno can mind rape them (Radial Disarm Loki, Chaos Nyx, Radiation proc), severely reduce their movement speed, fire rate, etc (Molecular Prime, Warcry), or just outright take them out of the picture (Rhino Stomp, any kind of stun lock, sleep lock)? 

 

The problem is we, the Tenno, are just vastly too powerful. It fits the lore. It is what DE aimed to allow us to be. It is not conducive to an AI rich environment, however. All the enemies flanking, taking cover, focus fire, etc amount to nothing with all the abilities that do not need LoS, has punch through, goes through objects, etc. Tackling those abilities will just piss off the entire community. They are between a rock and a hard place on this matter, and they are aware, as they have touched on AI issues a number of times over the years.

Edited March 15, 2016 by (PS4)FunyFlyBoy

[(XBOX)SKWRLY]

7 hours ago, Airyllish said:

A hundred times, this.

Warframe is not difficult. Content is not difficult based on skill or based on AI that require knowledge and practise to do well against.

Warframe is what I would class as artificial. The difficulty present in this game is not in fact genuine difficulty, it is simply artificial 'difficulty' via infinite scaling and a system that is war of attrition: you can keep fighting until the enemies out-scale, out-damage and out-number you and you run out of resources. Then you bail out as soon as possible. This isn't difficult, it's tedious. It isn't a challenge of skill or dealing with AI that are particularly challenging in their nature, it's simply optimising your damage until you can blow up the most things as fast as possible before they blow you up.

So... no. No. We have enough content in the game as it is that already sits on this dangerous fence of "not difficult in a genuine sense, simply a difficult because the scaling is insane." 

Everything is "easy" in this game for the same reason. Because you optimise to deal with the level 100+ enemy that can and will oneshot you, thus needing you to nuke it into oblivion first, any other enemy that is lower level and lesser scaled is easier to blow up and less of a threat. (Because it blows you up in two hits, not one, so you have a longer time to identify it and blow it up without getting smeared on the floor.)

TL;DR : no, Warframe's level of difficulty/ease is entirely artificial and this suggestion doesn't touch on the source of that problem even remotely, so it wouldn't actually fix anything in the long term.

I see this claim of artificial difficulty so much but I really don't understand what is defined as pure difficulty, at least to you or those who perhaps you represent. Im not being rude or anything, I'm just trying to understand what you would describe as true or pure difficulty. I myself love puzzles and coordinating to achieve victory, but I suppose even that could become cheesy after a few goes.

[(PSN)Fstroke]

22 minutes ago, (XB1)SKWRLY said:

I see this claim of artificial difficulty so much but I really don't understand what is defined as pure difficulty, at least to you or those who perhaps you represent. Im not being rude or anything, I'm just trying to understand what you would describe as true or pure difficulty. I myself love puzzles and coordinating to achieve victory, but I suppose even that could become cheesy after a few goes.

Artificial difficulty as they say, is when something becomes more difficult not because a new or practised skill is required, but because the power gap between players and enemies becomes too great.

Basically  it's just inflating enemy stat numbers to make the player less effective.

While we are making the comparison, you can see something outside of artificial difficulty a few places in destiny. While it suffers the same artificial difficulty scaling in most activities it really shines in raids. The enemies are difficult yes, but the main difficulty is mechanics driven.

[Lucernam]

5 hours ago, Etan-gK said:

OP: "Let's Take A Page Out Of Destiny"

warframe community: 

  Hide contents

 

 

Oh man, my sides! My thoughts exactly. I don't know too much about Destiny (just the Angry Joe review and some scattered chatter) but what I hear isn't positive.

[MrEvilMexican]

DESTINY? DESTINY?!!!!! NO.

*Kneels down and starts performing harakiri*

DESTINY CAN DIE.

[Noabettiet]

I think fundamentally warframe is built in a way that might not give what you desire.
The idea behind a even more harder experience in warframe comes across nice on paper but awful in practice, since scaling in warframe is sort of annoyingly awful.

And to top it off, the rewards and reward system is bottom like broken. The weight system on the "rng" rewards, is unsatisfactory and unrewarding. It gets more apparent the longer and harder missions are.

So instead of asking for a NIGHTMARE mode of "x" mission, why not something ENTIRELY NEW, something that we'd never expect in WARFRAME ?

We need to work these up, before moving forward with more addictions.

[(PSN)Lowk721]

5 hours ago, (PS4)eruccm said:

Don't let anything "Destiny" happen here.

I'd appreciate a Grimoire type of thing. They, don't even need to do it via app; they could just restructure the Codex with the added data. I just like it when fictions have this one place of collected lore to read through these awesome little stories. 

I think it would help with all this hunting all over to read all the lore and missing something.

Edited March 15, 2016 by (PS4)Lowk721

[zombielore]

5 hours ago, Vaxillian said:

How about instead of adding more enemies with higher damage we make the game actually difficult.

Let's create a real difficulty barrier, something that must be trained and used to gain skill with and then applied to the combat, not this shoot it until it dies concept.

It's simply impossible with the current state for warfare,  the simple fact is with abilities like Link/Blessing, Hysteria, invisibility, blade storm, radial blind, chaos, etc there will always be a way to cheese the game until it gets to the point where enemies are just 1 step below invincibility, and it's still possible to kill a non boss enemy with a trillion HP/Shields/Armour with the equinox/EV combo.

The only way to create some difficulty is to make enemies that resist/avoid our abilities like Maniacs, nullifiers, bursas, ancients, combas, sentients, etc or implement a cap on our ability casting potential, (like removing fleeting expertise, energy limits, etc. Any time DEs add anything remotely "difficult" people complain and there's no way to solve it without fundemental changes to the core game which would completely change the game.

Fact is warframe is a mob/looter rpg, much like Diablo where the core concept is your super powerful and face less power cannon fodder enemies until you hit a point where the cannon fodder does not become profitable for the time or effort invested.

Destiny while on the other hand isn't truly a mob rpg, yes they throw cheap minions at you but your never being truly swarmed like you do in warframe/Diablo (swarmed as in 10+ enemies regularly), that's why they can create difficult enemies because your character itself isn't all the powerful when put in contrast with the enemies and your character doesn't have ridiculous abilities that clears out hordes of enemies.

[jfhsanseiIII]

I think sorties could be expanded d upon for sure.  My idea was keep one faction for a week, keep a running storyline for that week, and if a player finishes three sorties then they could have the option of going tons harder sortie with a boss at the end at any time during that week. The rewards would be slightly more mods, an extra focus lens, or higher chance to get a rare ___, etc. right now sorties just seem like missions of which I'm locked into doing three of that are intermittently spruced up with some hyperbole. Giving it a bit of a storyline would be slightly more fun and motivational.  

 

Also so I like the bursts and I think they're great at doing their jobs of creating choke points... That said, there're too damn many of them.  

[XaxalShiba]

Sounds interesting. 

[DJ_Redwire]

Yes I think we should take a page out of Destiny too.

A good place to start would be suing Keith Powers. 

 

Heyooooo

[(PSN)X1155752X]

I agree with OP, damnit DE, let me pay you £15 for a new handshake already!

Spoiler

That was sarcasm, if you needed to read this to figure that out, you need professional help  

 

[shengar]

Some already express this, but the structure design of Warframe does not allow for smart AI and it actually being done on our behalf. There's nothing wrong with artificial difficulty since the game is neatly designed around that way with modding, but there's a problem lies within it namely enemy scaling. Instead of trying to ape another game, DE should realize the strength of their own and capitalize on it..

[Zeiss17]

NO.

/Thread

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

I left Destiny for Warframe. I don't need Destiny to follow me here. I wouldn't change "Magic Mountain" into Disneyland because I miss the Haunted Mansion. I'm here for the Viper. 

[CrazyCatLad]

No thank you.

 

 

EDIT: Where is that damn Token System????

Edited March 15, 2016 by Lanieu

[Ibro156]

I just said let have a nightamare sortie, but instead. Soooo much Hate!

[Eminem2420]

42 minutes ago, Ibro156 said:

I just said let have a nightamare sortie, but instead. Soooo much Hate!

well, people take one glance at the word Destiny and put their hateraid glasses on.

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

I'll be honest the loot in Destiny sometimes is so terrible that I believe countless controllers have been thrown violently at perfectly good televisions as a result.  

I don't mind DE adding some "modifiers" as they call them in Destiny to change up the challenge and cause us to change tactics.  (Well I mean that's what sort of happens in Tactical Alerts now and I know Destiny does it a little better.)  But yeah..  Please don't give us different horns sounds or dance moves for spending 15 minutes to 3 hours pulling our hair out trying to complete a mission. ROFL!!!

Also...  this is a highly controversial thing...  Much of what Destiny has done is with the game..  challenge modifiers, heavy weighted carrot/stick RNG, is to fool the players into re-running content till they eventually burn out on and I hope DE isn't as merciless as that.  I mean...  I've seen hundreds of posts saying how the player with top K/Ds in that game get crap rewards, while the person getting carried always scores an exotic.  Nightfall rewards are also pretty much garbage nowadays, so I hope DE doesn't copy their rewards system.  In year 1 Nightfall was really great, in Year 2 it's now just a slightly more challenging mode with a chance at near 300 to 310 gear (really slim chance of 310), to prepare for running the raid.

I say this as a player with all three classes above 315, (sure there are many many better players than me) and I don't go hardcore on that game because I play games to enjoy them and not to let the games play me.

[Kaotyke]

17 hours ago, YasaiTsume said:

Perhaps DE would focus on enemy AI soon.

I think I know why they havent touched the AI to make it smarter, I dont know when I heard that, but Steve mentioned that should the AI act smater that would take more processing power to load games... I might be wrong.

But when we can just blast throught anything they throw at us, it becomes kind of pointless to have a smarter AI, so denial tactics work better: Nullifiers, Bursas and... omfg I forgot the skater's names, but they too.

With the new damage system they are looking at, maybe having us being 1/2-shot at higher levels will end, but we will find enemies that can deny us access to areas and make us think outside the box. The Bursas do that to an extend, but there's a flaw in them: They are supposed to be heavy but move just as fast as a normal MOA. A tewak I would give them is to make them unable to turn around when they are "deployed", starfe left/right/back but not turn around, they have "un-deploy" first.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

nightfal...are you kidding me....

its a chore game, literally forced to do the grind to get anything, here you do it of your own choice at your own pace

destiny: log in and do your chores for the week, hate the drops and repeat. grind and throw away all your gear each big update, pay to level up....

*sets fire to destiny hard copy*

toxic community and game with a failing 10 year plan lol

good riddance 

nty

said my piece 

[Ailith]

16 hours ago, (PS4)FunyFlyBoy said:

DE can't build smarter enemies because of how Warframe works sadly. What's the point of smarter AI when Tenno can mind rape them (Radial Disarm Loki, Chaos Nyx, Radiation proc), severely reduce their movement speed, fire rate, etc (Molecular Prime, Warcry), or just outright take them out of the picture (Rhino Stomp, any kind of stun lock, sleep lock)? 

 

The problem is we, the Tenno, are just vastly too powerful. It fits the lore. It is what DE aimed to allow us to be. It is not conducive to an AI rich environment, however. All the enemies flanking, taking cover, focus fire, etc amount to nothing with all the abilities that do not need LoS, has punch through, goes through objects, etc. Tackling those abilities will just piss off the entire community. They are between a rock and a hard place on this matter, and they are aware, as they have touched on AI issues a number of times over the years.

That's a rather close-minded view, honestly. What do the AI currently do when in combat? Ranged units: Run to cover, shoot from cover. Melee units: Run at target, hit target. The only really interesting AI behavior is that units will hide inside Arctic Eximus or Nullifier bubbles for cover, that's it.

Say there are multiple Shield Lancers running around, instead of them just running up to you and smacking you, they could form a (mobile) wall for their allies to hide behind. Commanders could coordinate nearby troops and allow them to behave differently, such as having a chance to dive away from Warframe abilities or telling a few units to draw aggro while telling others to flank. Instead of armor scaling indefinitely, armored units could have sections of armor that reduce damage by a large degree, but can be blown off after X damage/hits and which will then expose weak points once destroyed. This would be in addition to unarmored areas that are always uncovered, but are harder to hit in most situations (such as the back, joints, etc.).

Certain Infested could gain the ability to climb on most of the environment, imagine Chargers leaping off of walls to attack you (I know this would require significant work). Disruptors could have powers similar to Nyx and, instead of having a bullsh!t energy drain, they would make us see Infested that aren't actually there (these fakes would flicker or something, to hint at which ones aren't real).

Nullifiers should only block our abilities, not our bullets. If the behavior is going to stay, then it should only reduce damage from our weapons by a small amount, not completely. Corpus techs should have an arsenal of abilities other than just sending out a shield drone. Technicians of the future just throw out pokeballs? Let them deploy turrets or dampening fields (slows Tenno, decreases accuracy) and let them buff nearby allies for small periods at a time (added elemental effects, faster shield recharge, robots are faster and more accurate).

All energy drain effects should be removed, they could be replaced with an effect that only temporarily prevents us from casting abilities. Half of our power shouldn't be completely removed in most high-end content, it's artificial difficulty and not fun in the slightest.

 

They could do so much more to make enemies genuinely challenging or, at the very least, interesting to fight. To just keep buffing Tenno and enemies back and forth just exacerbates the issue indefinitely, it needs to stop at some point. The sooner, the better.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Ailith

[Ibro156]

3 minutes ago, Ailith said:

Snip

Thats a little advance. You can give them a better AI by

- Simply making enemies dodge to side when using AoE abilities.

- Attacking any player that tries to revive a down player. 

- Nullies would rush players that are using constant abilities and etc.

- Enemies with abilities won't use it at first sight of enemy.

Setting they can do but something like this. Not creating a formation that just go to be to annoying in battle.

 

[Hypernaut1]

Most of you guys would HATE "advanced a.i"...then you would come up with some other forum buzz term to describe it and complain.

What do you mean by "advanced a.i" anyway? The moment enemies begin to outsmart players, they will hate it. Nullifiers is an example of how much players hate being outsmarted.  The main complaint about them is that you cant "use snipers". You dont think "advanced a.i. will force you to diversify?