My thoughts on the operators and warframes.

[CriticalFumble]

1 minute ago, Mu-no-kitsune said:

The question is is how did hunhow know, lotus said that after the war the operators were put to sleep not during (unless I am remembering wrong). As for why go for something that doesn't yet exist well, operators didn't exist till second dream. We also have no evidence that tenno can control their powers outside of laser beam, unless channelled though warframe first.

Hunhow learned about it from Lotus, remember?  Apparently, he agreed to play dead so that Lotus could get the Tenno to kill off the Orokin and then in turn kill the Tenno themselves.  Lotus only half did it, remember?  The whole Natah quest?  The whole Second Dream? 

And yes, we did have operators before the Second Dream, we had hints all the way through that we weren't the warframes proper.  "A conduit for their affliction"? The proto frame? Vor's comments about there being nothing inside the frames? (though the whole entry on that was removed at some point).  What exactly that meant was not stated. 

And you're still not getting my comment on the Stalker:  Stalker - in his own somatics pod - on a link - controlling his own Stalker warframe.  How is this less reasonable than what you're suggesting? 

[Robin-da-Reaper]

2 minutes ago, Mu-no-kitsune said:

I really like the idea of a third consciousness, kind of like well fusions from Steven Universe (closet comparison I can think of) where two separate personality e.g. sapphire and ruby become garnet.

TARINunit9 up above also pointed out an important, comfortable and less technical aspect of it all that I think is crucial for consideration of a Tenno's true nature. Upvoting him. 

This idea of a third consciousness came to me very shortly after I finished the Second Dream. I think it unwise to consider Hunhow as all-knowing when it comes to warframes and the Tenno in general, as he was using derogatory speech at the time. He sounded as surprised by the warframe's actions at the end as the Stalker were, strongly implying there´s more to it than he knows. In essence, I think it´d be best to imagine it is "us" that are pulling that sword apart and through our shoulder(ouch), as I believe think Hunhow would know if there was enough of a presence inside "a metal puppet" to be able to perform such an act. It was "the Tenno, acting in defiance as one of its critical components are held by the throat when a critical component of the enemy's presence is stabbed right through it", or so I would like to say.

[arch111]

In this thread from 2014, we talked about how the Tenno swap suits and much more, like the Liset and relays that is now things we take for granted. Its really a fun.read if you are up for it.

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/310156-changing-warframes-in-game-should-de-show-us-how-its-done/

This was my suggestion for warframe-swapping. We of course did not know about Transferrence back then.

***

The tenno enter the Warframe Armory.

Mechanical arms lock the body into place, machines and lights coming alive in the dim underbelly of the Liset.

"Welcome Operator. Please select the desired warframe."

The onboard complement of crafted warframes shimmers in the air for a moment.

The tenno highlights the Frost Prime.

"Excellent choice Operator. Refitting commencing. Please stand by. This might... sting a little. Apologies."

Agony begin to rip through the tenno as Trinitys systems are removed, and continue as the chassi is broken up, part by part, swallowed be the warframe stasis chambers.

But even as the pain become a fire, the Frost Prime systems are fitted into place, and with it the balm of sweet surrender, being born again.

As the parts change, the Trinity imprint fades into oblivion. Steely cold power takes its place, a blizzard of shards, of control, of quiet fury.

The pain is gone, a dim afterthought as he step out of the Armory.

"Refitting complete, Operator. All systems are ready * for dismembering *

for the next mission. The others are waiting."

Edited March 13, 2016 by arch111

[Stratego89]

45 minutes ago, Mu-no-kitsune said:

Even if it was just a infested, it shows that a link with a tenno acts to calm them.

Calm- no. We do not calm, we control. Completely. In the Rhino Prime codex- the monster looks down at it's hands after it stops. That's the Tenno figuring out what's going on- because suddenly they were not where they were prior. Also- even IF we simply calmed them- we calmed infested, not a warframe. Warframes are not sentient. They are made of living tissues but nothing other than one questionable scene that could easily be explained in plenty of other ways in one quest so much as suggests that they might move on their own.

[Heatnix.]

1 hour ago, Mu-no-kitsune said:

Honestly when you put it like that, yer it does seem sad but I think its less of them being slaves to the tenno and more of the operator being a grounding force. Though the bit of fuelling the frames on teenage angst is funny.

I see it as a symbiotic relationship, the tenno need the warframes so their power doesn't go out of control like when they hurt the women (can't remember her name) and the warframes need the operators to keep them calm, kinda like a god holding him/her self back cause if said god were to go full out then his/her friends may get injured or killed. 

Though I do think its better than the warframes being just puppets, that only purpose is to fight.

Yeah. I get that for sure. I still think Warframes are just puppets but mostly because of my hot headed and just want to walk on an extreme to show how upset I am... =p

But it does show on Chroma for example. Also, how did Salad V controlled Mesa? Was he controlling the Warframe being controlled by an operator? Also, why was Chroma fully functional without power? Supposedly the Operator gives them power to function--. And what IS the Stalker? Is there an operator to the Stalker?

But! what if the process isn't perfect and an operator's mind can be trapped inside a Warframe? With them dreaming they would never realize this-- but this would imply their consciousness is energy-- wait... how does transference even work? What if Stalker is an actual, living person inside a Warframe? is that even doable to begin with?

I'll be honest... i think DE didn't know what they'd ultimately do with the lore. They had to sit down one day a few months ago and come up with something =p

[Alastair-Ulven]

On 12/03/2016 at 0:09 AM, CriticalFumble said:

 The Stalker also had been to the Reservoir before and it made him loose his mind (I'd guess from guilt, that's another whole subject to just lightly touch below).

 a void fragged human controlling a warframe by remote?

This is what I really meant to address, in the first part you say he has been to the reservoir before and he went crazy there. Yet if he went there, there is a high chance he would have learnt that he isnt what he thought he was which may have led him to kill the operator half otherwise why would he feel guilt. If he is still linked to a operator why would he feel guilt and hate the tenno.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Mu-no-kitsune

[Genitive]

1 minute ago, Mu-no-kitsune said:

If he is still linked to a operator why would he feel guilt and hate the tenno.

He holds a grudge against them because they killed the Orokin.  Also, he describes himself as a lower guardian, so maybe there is another, still unknown to us, group that wasn't involved in the Orokin genocide that Stalker was a part of.

[Extroah]

I like the way people are thinking here. I personally don't think that Warframes are just a "Weapon" that the Operator can use whenever he wants, an empty Shell with no level of Consciousness. For me, the Operator is just the tactical side of things, similar to other FPS games or even real-life, where somebody tells you your Objectives via mobile Radio Equipment. I believe that a Warframe is a Suit with a Human Body inside of it, some being more Human than others (for example the Human controlling Inaros having Cyborg/Augmented Bodyparts to fit inside the Suit, or even the Suit specifically made for the owners Body). This would make the most sense to me personally.

The Operator saying things like "My Warframe is strong" would back this up a bit also. For example, if you'd tell your Kid to lift up a Car, which it then does, you would also say "My Kid is strong" and not "I am strong". The Operator would say the latter since he/she would be in total Control of the Warframe, both mentally and physically, as the Operator would technically switch "Body" - similar to if you would dream to be somebody else, it would still be your personality and your consciousness but in a different Body.

-

I could talk about this for days, haha. I find the Game and its Lore so deep and fascinating. :D

[Alastair-Ulven]

9 minutes ago, Stratego89 said:

Calm- no. We do not calm, we control. Completely. In the Rhino Prime codex- the monster looks down at it's hands after it stops. That's the Tenno figuring out what's going on- because suddenly they were not where they were prior. Also- even IF we simply calmed them- we calmed infested, not a warframe. Warframes are not sentient. They are made of living tissues but nothing other than one questionable scene that could easily be explained in plenty of other ways in one quest so much as suggests that they might move on their own.

Well nothing we have says that they have no consciousness, the reason I think our warframes collapse is the connection to our power is cut off, of course this is also the biggest reason to say that they have no mind, as otherwise they would just stand still and wait or keep fighting. That said I like to think that operating a warframe at peek power takes two minds, the warframes mind which gives it its personality and how it moves and fights, then the operator that analysis the battle to figure out how to best react, like when the operator say "move and strike" it is said like a command from a tactician (even if it is random), thus take one away the operator and to minimise chance of being hit the warframe makes itself appear less threaten thus collapses.

I have always seen that bit where it looks down to see its hand, like a blind person who is seeing him/herself after so long being unable to (in this case its just infested madness).

[nobucketrequired]

Operators need more hats 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

2 hours ago, (PS4)SCRATCH__043 said:

Its just a game dude..

have you considered that perhaps some of us might enjoy discussing the Lore in this game? clearly you haven't. don't judge what you do not understand.

as for OP, it is a very interesting theory, though I think that the Personalities are something that a Warframe could develop over time, rather than something built-in. if the Warframe does have some degree of self-Sentience, it could well be, in concept, like a pet. when you first get a Puppy or Kitten, it doesn't really know anything, so it has to learn, and over time you see it develop new behaviours. they become more intelligent and mature, and can ultimately be trained: the Transference may not be as simple as dumping energy into the Frame, but relaying commands. instead of "Sit" or "Stay" for us it's "Fight" or "Kill". we could likely be telling them telepathically what to do and when. and they obey, because they loyally recognise us, the operators, as it's master.

and this also begs the question: what if a Warframe were to go rogue and turn on it's own Operator? perhaps Umbra Excalibur decided it would not bow to it's Operator, and instead wanted it's own freedom. if so, is there also a chance that our Warframes have their own... Emotions? can they feel anger, or regret? bear in mind Warframes are made using Living Technocyte, so who's to say the Technocyte doesn't develop a mind of it's own, and an animalistic, primal personality that goes with it, to then be honed and tamed by an Operator, turned into the killing machines we know them as now?

wait, is that the Earth's Crust? oh shish, I went a little deep here..

 

[motorfirebox]

19 minutes ago, Stratego89 said:

Calm- no. We do not calm, we control. Completely. In the Rhino Prime codex- the monster looks down at it's hands after it stops. That's the Tenno figuring out what's going on- because suddenly they were not where they were prior. Also- even IF we simply calmed them- we calmed infested, not a warframe. Warframes are not sentient. They are made of living tissues but nothing other than one questionable scene that could easily be explained in plenty of other ways in one quest so much as suggests that they might move on their own.

We might control them completely when we're in charge, but one thing the Rhino P entry makes clear is that the Warframes are able to act on their own. That's why the two dudes ran to the room where the Tenno kids were being kept, so that one of them would hopefully enact Transference and control the rampaging proto-Rhino.

[Alastair-Ulven]

10 minutes ago, Genitive said:

He holds a grudge against them because they killed the Orokin.  Also, he describes himself as a lower guardian, so maybe there is another, still unknown to us, group that wasn't involved in the Orokin genocide that Stalker was a part of.

Ok I can give you that it is possible, that the stalker is a as of yet undetermined faction, with a situation similar to the children/teens.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Mu-no-kitsune

[Alastair-Ulven]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

as for OP, it is a very interesting theory, though I think that the Personalities are something that a Warframe could develop over time, rather than something built-in.

I do like the idea of personality developing over time, but maybe all warfarme of the same type have a kind of default version, like mirages flirtyness thing or limbos showmanship kind of thing, which then build from there.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Mu-no-kitsune

[BornWithTeeth]

"The Operators aren't actually in control of the Warframes, they're just supplying power and giving orders to the semi-autonomous fighting unit."

 

Eh........I doubt it. Their nervous systems are meshed, so deeply that when the Warframe is injured, the Operator feels pain. For decades, the Operators thought they were the Warframes, directly controlling them.

 

In the Second Dream quest, it was extremely clear. That wasn't the Warframe rescuing its mission commander, that was the Tenno saving themselves. Everything about the Second Dream made it very, very clear: Where there is a mind in the Tenno, it's in the Operator, not the Warframe.

[arch111]

10 minutes ago, Mu-no-kitsune said:

This is what I really meant to address, in the first part you say he has been to the reservoir before and he went crazy there. Yet if he went there, there is a high chance he would have learnt that he isnt what he thought he was body which may have led him to kill the operator half otherwise why would he feel guilt. If he is still linked to a operator why would he feel guilt and hate the tenno.

The Stalker saw the Tenno (Prime kill the Orokin leaders. He most likely fought them in the Tenno-uprising that followed with the other Guardians.

He do not CARE that Lotus wiped our memories - he did not sleep. He, for reasons only DE know, was different from the Tenno.

I know that it is a disputed theory, but given that he speaks, I say the Guardians actually WORE the exoarmor. As in, yes he is actually in the suit.

He went mad from the Power at the reservoir, we still do not know in what way. Maby it made him so powerful that he became like the Ten-zero's and this is how he can use so many powers.

The warframes we use are made with specific roles. These roles do not change. We link with Nekros and we get those powers. But we must allso keep it alive.

I am certain warframes have minds and I am certain they have memories. A Tenno is the sum of body and spirit and mind. 

When Alad had Valkyr, she resisted. When he had Mesa he created Transferrence with an Infested inside the suit. So he actually was the Tenno - he just never figured it out.

[i_Lex]

"The Sentients had won. They had turned our weapons, our technology, against us. The more advanced we became, the greater our losses. The war was over unless we found a new way. In our desperation we turned to the Void. The blinding night, the hellspace where our science and reason failed.

We took the twisted few that had returned from that place. We built a frame around them, a conduit of their affliction."

 

MY thoughts? It think that our operators actually have control over the twisted few in the frame. They are conductors of our operators powers.

Edited March 13, 2016 by sniperbro-captian-PS

[Relentless.Zen]

i just dont like the fact that the operators are kids. Why the hell is a kid controlling a machine that is killing everything? and sometimes i think lotus is the real evil... she uses us to get data files from the controlling factions of the system.. i cant believe anymore that we are the "good" party of all factions....

[Alastair-Ulven]

3 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

"The Operators aren't actually in control of the Warframes, they're just supplying power and giving orders to the semi-autonomous fighting unit."

 

Eh........I doubt it. Their nervous systems are meshed, so deeply that when the Warframe is injured, the Operator feels pain. For decades, the Operators thought they were the Warframes, directly controlling them.

 

In the Second Dream quest, it was extremely clear. That wasn't the Warframe rescuing its mission commander, that was the Tenno saving themselves. Everything about the Second Dream made it very, very clear: Where there is a mind in the Tenno, it's in the Operator, not the Warframe.

I don't think we were controlling them per say. I don't know if you have ever had a lucid dream, but (at-least for me even when I do I don't have full control, I can change what might happen, but I cant fully control the main character of the dream, influence yes control completely no) the main reason I think that the warframes must have some from of consciousness, is otherwise how could a male operator not feel strange controlling a saryn, or a female operator a rhino, or even the difference in movement between a mirage/nazha and say frost.

[i_Lex]

Just now, .Chrome. said:

i just dont like the fact that the operators are kids. Why the hell is a kid controlling a machine that is killing everything? and sometimes i think lotus is the real evil... she uses us to get data files from the controlling factions of the system.. i cant believe anymore that we are the "good" party of all factions....

 SPOILER Don't forget that she saved the tenno while she had the assignment to eradicate all tennos

Edited March 13, 2016 by sniperbro-captian-PS

[(PSN)xKAIOWAx]

In my opinion this operators was a terrible idea , personally i prefer old concepts and mistery

[Alastair-Ulven]

2 minutes ago, .Chrome. said:

i just dont like the fact that the operators are kids. Why the hell is a kid controlling a machine that is killing everything? and sometimes i think lotus is the real evil... she uses us to get data files from the controlling factions of the system.. i cant believe anymore that we are the "good" party of all factions....

we arent good we are a balance, a needed force to keep other in check.

[Extroah]

1 minute ago, .Chrome. said:

and sometimes i think lotus is the real evil... she uses us to get data files from the controlling factions of the system.. i cant believe anymore that we are the "good" party of all factions....

Same here. I had the thought of that today, that the Grineer, the Corpus and others are actually on the good side, and we are some leftover of an evil force that almost got eradicated some time ago. That the creations we have to fight in different missions are made to combat us as we are too strong because of the warframes. But i think going into this too deep would derail the topic too much xD.

[BornWithTeeth]

Just now, Mu-no-kitsune said:

I don't think we were controlling them per say. I don't know if you have ever had a lucid dream, but (at-least for me even when I do I don't have full control, I can change what might happen, but I cant fully control the main character of the dream, influence yes control completely no) the main reason I think that the warframes must have some from of consciousness, is otherwise how could a male operator not feel strange controlling a saryn, or a female operator a rhino, or even the difference in movement between a mirage/nazha and say frost.

The gender issue is not an issue. At all. The differences between a Warframe and a human body are already so extreme that the relatively minor gender differences couldn't possibly somehow be deciding factor.

 

Besides which, you're kind of arguing a point which is already explicitly contradicted: The Operator's nervous system is meshed with the Warframe's. The Operator feels everything the Warframe does. 

 

This kind of argument has come up once or twice before, and each time it kinda seems like it's driven by underlying attitudes to the Operators and the Warframes. To be blunt, it comes across as a decision fuelled by thinking that Warframes are cool, Operators are not, so therefore the Operators must just be batteries while the Warframes are the 'real' Tenno.

[Robin-da-Reaper]

1 minute ago, .Chrome. said:

i just dont like the fact that the operators are kids. Why the hell is a kid controlling a machine that is killing everything? and sometimes i think lotus is the real evil... she uses us to get data files from the controlling factions of the system.. i cant believe anymore that we are the "good" party of all factions....

Even if they biologically appear to be children, the time-span in which Transference was invented and the Tenno later developed the schools of Focus would have taken them a number of years to enact. They might either have been discovered as very small children on the Zariman Ten-Zero, or they could be biologically locked in the aging process, and thus either way they are far beyond being simply kids. The Transference-link probably has some psychological filtering and other adaptions to ensure the Tenno are not too restricted by fear or misuse of the moral compass, so even as a kid they are still being changed through the entire concept itself.

Being the "good" is not necessarily a requirement to being a protagonistic faction, and even though we do perform some acts that can be considered good, I think it´s more interesting to work towards a more ambiguous agenda rather than that of good. "Balance" might be linked to a "greater good", but such a thing requires "sin" to be more effectively realized.