Tonkor: Let's fix easy mode

[Teloch]

I sincerely beg the pardon of this topic's subscribers, but I think I just can't leave my irritation and confusion unexpressed...

So, yesterday there was an alert for Nezha's alternative helmet. It took place at Jupiter, and so the hostiles level fork was 12-21. I don't react in those cases when other players use loadouts that considered as a current meta (even though I personally despise such approach), but this case was a bit too overwhelming.
 

Spoiler

 

 

I wouldn't even notice that if not a sudden realization that we were fighting lvl 20 mobs...
But what was more embarrassing:

Spoiler

 

 

Just, why? Why do people do this to themselves?

Edited May 11, 2016 by Teloch

[RealPandemonium]

1 hour ago, Teloch said:

I sincerely beg the pardon of this topic's subscribers, but I think I just can't leave my irritation and confusion unexpressed...

So, yesterday there was an alert for Nezha's alternative helmet. It took place at Jupiter, and so the hostiles level fork was 12-21. I don't react in those cases when other players use loadouts that considered as a current meta (even though I personally despise such approach), but this case was a bit too overwhelming.
 

  Hide contents

 

 

I wouldn't even notice that if not a sudden realization that we were fighting lvl 20 mobs...
But what was more embarrassing:

  Hide contents

 

 

Just, why? Why do people do this to themselves?

Those loadouts are pretty bleh (especially the MR5,) but what's the purpose of the second screenshot?

[TheBrsrkr]

3 hours ago, cx-dave said:

Your profile says you did 1068h. Did you get your banana today yet?

Yes, Chinese cuisine does taste delicious! Now, can we get back to the discussion or are you just going to waste everyone's time again in an attempt to lock the thread?

[TheLexiConArtist]

3 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

Those loadouts are pretty bleh (especially the MR5,) but what's the purpose of the second screenshot?

It looks like "All three are using Tonkors / two are using Sonicors, but I still beat them, why do they use it when it's obviously not that good"?

Which, if so, is anecdotal at best (how tryhard was Teloch being, how effortlessly and badly did the others play and still approach performance?), to say nothing of the expectations of mod and performance disparity between an exhaustive-content player (MR21) and a half-content player (MR 12/13) coming into the equation.

[cx-dave]

Could have just gone in with Ember and the Tonkors would have next to zero kills, even if they tried hard.

[shyguyk]

5 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

Could have just gone in with Ember and the Tonkors would have next to zero kills, even if they tried hard.

also a problem, but this is about weapons, not frames

[NKDG]

4 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

Could have just gone in with Ember and the Tonkors would have next to zero kills, even if they tried hard.

And again you refer to a power because there's still no comparable WEAPON to the tonkor. Thus, it needs to be rebalanced. 

[cx-dave]

5 minutes ago, NKDG said:

And again you refer to a power because there's still no comparable WEAPON to the tonkor. Thus, it needs to be rebalanced. 

You got 159 kills with a Tonkor and think you can tell me how it is? In a Survival outside of Infested you can do far better with a good shotgun. This also applies to Exterminate, Invasion, Capture, and Interception.

9 minutes ago, shyguyk said:

also a problem, but this is about weapons, not frame

The basis for the argument is that the Tonkor ruins the gaming experience of some players. You can do that using many other weapons and methods. If ruining their experience is off the table, then what are we arguing about? You want it gone just because it powerful?

[SamuraiPizza]

7 hours ago, Teloch said:

I sincerely beg the pardon of this topic's subscribers, but I think I just can't leave my irritation and confusion unexpressed...

So, yesterday there was an alert for Nezha's alternative helmet. It took place at Jupiter, and so the hostiles level fork was 12-21. I don't react in those cases when other players use loadouts that considered as a current meta (even though I personally despise such approach), but this case was a bit too overwhelming.
 

  Hide contents

 

 

I wouldn't even notice that if not a sudden realization that we were fighting lvl 20 mobs...
But what was more embarrassing:

  Hide contents

 

 

Just, why? Why do people do this to themselves?

Dear sir,

 

What you are not taking into account here are mods.

At MR5, you're probably not going to have maxed serration/hornet strike/split chamber/barrel diffusion/lethal torrent, which are mods that are necessary on all weapons. It's entirely possible that the MR5 players were using those loadouts because those were the best loadouts they had. 

 

Sincerely,

Legion216.

[TheBrsrkr]

39 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

You got 159 kills with a Tonkor and think you can tell me how it is? 

Yes because if he got zero kills with the Tonkor the problem would still be the same. 

 

41 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

 In a Survival outside of Infested you can do far better with a good shotgun. 

That's a mighty funny joke you got there. O I am laffin. Try harder. 

 

42 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

 This also applies to Exterminate, Invasion, Capture, and Interception.

Exterminate and Invasion, where everything is weak enough to die in one shot anyway? Capture, where you can literally run past everything, kill the target and then run past everything again? Interception, where-wait, Interception? What? No. No it does not. You can lock down all 4 points with the Tonkor by simply firing one shot in there and killing literally everything. Even if interception counted, that's 5 of 21 mission types, 18 of which weapons actually matter in. 

 

46 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

The basis for the argument is that the Tonkor ruins the gaming experience of some players. You can do that using many other weapons and methods. 

If that's what you think the basis of the argument is, I invite you to read the last 30 pages of the entire thread you skipped over. Then come back and try again. Even if it was..... So what? Does that make it less of a problem? Because other things do it, the Tonkor should be left alone? Do you realize this argument applies to any and all of those methods? 

 

48 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

. If ruining their experience is off the table, then what are we arguing about? You want it gone just because it powerful?

You've learned nothing, have you? We've had pages and pages of rebuttals to this exact same argument. Why? Why use the same thing again and again? At least come up with something else to say. 

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

I havnt been here for this argument, and have no idea why it's still going, but it should be obvious to everyone that the tonkor is far and beyond what anything in game is capable of although its not like power creep hasn't been going on for a long time now (but we should be stopping it right?).

My personal experience with it was that I picked it up, shot it a few times, and relegated it to mastery fodder, not because it was trash, but because it felt like a toddler weapon, the gun you let your nephew use when you send them to mercury appolodorus so they can play Warframe and you don't have to worry about them dying on your account. 

 

[Chipputer]

5 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

It looks like "All three are using Tonkors / two are using Sonicors, but I still beat them, why do they use it when it's obviously not that good"?

It was an attempt to point out, and ridicule, a group of players who used meta loadouts for things far below where they should be necessary and couldn't keep up in damage. It's a completely subjective point to make, though, since damage rankings aren't able to account for many other factors, including player skill, if the person using the non-meta weapons was rushing ahead as fast as possible (and thus trying their hardest to make sure the other players couldn't get any chances to deal damage), equipped mods, ranks on those mods, etc, etc.

[RealPandemonium]

5 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

It looks like "All three are using Tonkors / two are using Sonicors, but I still beat them, why do they use it when it's obviously not that good"?

Which, if so, is anecdotal at best (how tryhard was Teloch being, how effortlessly and badly did the others play and still approach performance?), to say nothing of the expectations of mod and performance disparity between an exhaustive-content player (MR21) and a half-content player (MR 12/13) coming into the equation.

Yeah, as Rhino he could have just nuked the map with Stomp and had those results.  It highlights how pointless it is to talk here about the game when there are all these crazy people around and people who just aren't on the level.  

[cx-dave]

6 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

You've learned nothing, have you?

I've learned that your game knowledge is non-existent. That you make things up as you go along and that you don't even play the game. 

It's up to you how you waste your time. Stop complaining here about it. Take responsibility for your own actions. 

Reply to me again in a similar way and I'll put you on ignore. I've never ever had to do this on any forum in the past 20 years. 

[TheBrsrkr]

5 hours ago, cx-dave said:

I've learned that your game knowledge is non-existent. That you make things up as you go along and that you don't even play the game. 

So I'll take that as a no. 

 

5 hours ago, cx-dave said:

It's up to you how you waste your time. Stop complaining here about it. Take responsibility for your own actions. 

It's also up to you to use this forum for its intended purpose, constructive feedback. Would you call your post feedback? Would you call telling people they can't have an opinion feedback? Would you call trying to use someone's playtime to defame their argument feedback? Would you call saying the exact same thing, over and over, for 10 bloody pages, feedback??? I don't think any of those things can be considered feedback, and posting things that aren't feedback in the feedback section of the forums is wasting everyone's time. You're wasting DE's time because they have to read through extra pages of drivel if they want to find out what the players thing. You're wasting your own time because you've said this all before, literally, and you've been shown why it's wrong for about 10 pages now.  

You're wasting your other players' time because now they have to do things like make videos and horrible math calculations again and again and again and again and again, because you don't get the point of them,and you're wasting my time because every single time in the last 5 pages I have posted something at you including this one , you either you have completely ignored most of the point or repeated the same thing that you said before DAYS ago. 

5 hours ago, cx-dave said:

Reply to me again in a similar way and I'll put you on ignore. I've never ever had to do this on any forum in the past 20 years. 

Do yourself a favor and just ignore everyone on the thread. Better yet, save some time and leave the thread!  Do whatever you like, I don't care. 

 

Edited May 12, 2016 by TheBrsrkr
Mobile forums do not agree with large fingers

[RealPandemonium]

11 hours ago, cx-dave said:

I've learned that your game knowledge is non-existent. That you make things up as you go along and that you don't even play the game.

Level 5000 enemies are highly relevant to Warframe's core gameplay.  It took reading through 1000 posts in this thread for me to realize this, and for that you have my eternal gratitude.

[cx-dave]

25 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

Level 5000 enemies are highly relevant to Warframe's core gameplay.  It took reading through 1000 posts in this thread for me to realize this, and for that you have my eternal gratitude.

You're misrepresenting examples in order to prove a point that you don't have. I've shown in game evidence ranging from low, mid, to very high levels, where the Tonkor wasn't the best choice or could even be a factor, and every time someone had an excuse for why it wasn't valid.  Time to get creative and find different excuses, because the number of modes where Tonkor spoils and rules all is getting smaller by the hour.

This thread sounds more like let's get rid of the Tonkor and change the whole game to easy mode while we're at it.

[Ax10mCRO]

2 hours ago, cx-dave said:

Time to get creative and find different excuses, because the number of modes where Tonkor spoils and rules all is getting smaller by the hour.

Ah dave, I've been through this thread before and arguing with these people is pointless, they literally shut their eyes to proof because they are special snowflakes and want to bend the entire game to their will. The entire game can be completed without using a Tonkor, they are not forced to use one in any way (and all these 45 pages have failed to provide a single shred of evidence how they must endure Tonkor) but it still bothers them when other people use it.

[RealPandemonium]

3 hours ago, cx-dave said:

You're misrepresenting examples in order to prove a point that you don't have. I've shown in game evidence ranging from low, mid, to very high levels, where the Tonkor wasn't the best choice or could even be a factor, and every time someone had an excuse for why it wasn't valid.  Time to get creative and find different excuses, because the number of modes where Tonkor spoils and rules all is getting smaller by the hour.

This thread sounds more like let's get rid of the Tonkor and change the whole game to easy mode while we're at it.

The bottom line is, your [possibly extensive, I have no way of telling but I'll give benefit of the doubt] game knowledge of endless modes with level 100+ enemies is not really pertinent to Warframe's core gameplay, which as of the last major systems revision (Damage 2.0 in late 2013) was designed for level 40s-60s endgame.  Sorties and Raids were introduced as a response to players' response to powercreeped weapon options and the proliferation of Corrupted mod use which both served to totally trivialize available gameplay.  Far from legitimizing powercreep, these modes demonstrate painfully how much of a slog the game becomes when you can trivialize enemies into the XXX levels and the only real difference is that you get 1-shot by mooks.  Accommodating the vocal faction of players who insisted on greater support for fighting level XXX enemies is what caused the present balance disaster that Warframe faces presently.  Damage 3.0 is needed to bring things in order again, but now we have whole generations of players who know nothing but trivial "non-gameplay" entrenched in this broken, lopsided system.  

Edited May 12, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[TheBrsrkr]

3 hours ago, cx-dave said:

You're misrepresenting examples in order to prove a point that you don't have. 

Not one thing was misrepresented here. Let's take a look down memory lane, Dave. Back to page 41.

On 5/1/2016 at 9:07 PM, cx-dave said:

To me the Tonkor is looking weak in the event. I see no signs of it being OP.

This is literally what you said. And your reasoning behind this was:

 

On 5/1/2016 at 9:07 PM, cx-dave said:

:

 

...a few Tonkor shots:

 

Hmmm. Still standing without even a scratch on him. I could have sworn the Simulacrum said it would kill anything, even if it missed its target.

 

Earlier that day one of his slightly lower ranked level 5076 friends:

 

OHK with a melee? WTF is going on here. How could we have missed this? It's absurd! OMG NERF this right now!!!!

These images. These images show you trying to show that the Tonkor is not OP by fighting level 5000+ enemies and comparing the damages between a weapon that does direct damage to armored targets, and a weapon mod that does percentage based damage, that requires certain abilities and therefore certain frames to use, which we've talked about before, with certain weapon types where this is possible, which we've talked about before.

The point was, comparing a weapon that does direct damage to enemies versus a weapon that requires certain frames to use certain abilities to force the percentage based damage to work at levels far beyond literal hours of play BEYOND any reasonable balancing point is not the benchmark for balance, nor does it show whether something is balanced or not, as we've outlined before multiple times already. 

 

3 hours ago, cx-dave said:

. I've shown in game evidence ranging from low, mid, to very high levels, where the Tonkor wasn't the best choice or could even be a factor, and every time someone had an excuse for why it wasn't valid.  

You've shown an Exterminate alert where you literally speed run a mission, not playing it at all. Everyone here has established that the Tonkor does not excel in areas where fire rate matters more than damage, because insane damage isn't needed where a fully modded Braton can do the same thing as the Tonkor since enemy health is so low. You've shown "high" levels in excess of level 5000,where direct damage is meaningless, and where literally all weapons that deal direct damage have virtually no effect on enemies. The Tonkor STILL does better than all other direct damage weapons at the way, but it's the difference between 3 and 12 damage to an enemy with effectively 2 million health.

No one cares about these examples because they don't prove anything. The "excuses" you hear are simply people telling you that you are wrong, and you not accepting that you are wrong. Speed running isn't most of the game. Level 5000 enemies isn't most of the game. You cannot compare percentages to raw stats. You cannot compare abilities to weapons. Even half of the starchart isn't most of the game because half of the planets don't even need to be revisited after you  clear them outside of alerts,and were literally built for starter gear. Whether it's the Tonkor or simulor or Broltor Prime or any other stupidly overpowered weapon, these are not the places to judge whether something is overpowered or not. 

3 hours ago, cx-dave said:

.  Time to get creative and find different excuses, because the number of modes where Tonkor spoils and rules all is getting smaller by the hour.

Time for you to actually address the arguments leveled against you, instead of ignoring them and telling everyone else that they're wrong because your "examples" say so. 

[JohnnyQuantum]

This is a game (not a contest or competition), people play for fun. If their idea of fun is running around blowing things up with a tonkor, that doesn't hurt you (and you don't have the right to deny them that fun). Use it or do not - each person can decide for themselves!

P.S. I love the variety of weapons in this game.

[shyguyk]

34 minutes ago, JohnnyQuantum said:

This is a game (not a contest or competition), people play for fun. If their idea of fun is running around blowing things up with a tonkor, that doesn't hurt you (and you don't have the right to deny them that fun). Use it or do not - each person can decide for themselves!

P.S. I love the variety of weapons in this game.

Does that give them the right to deny our fun of shooting things though?

Sure we get the mission rewards, but we might enjoy the mission itself far less.

[Magneu]

54 minutes ago, JohnnyQuantum said:

This is a game (not a contest or competition), people play for fun. If their idea of fun is running around blowing things up with a tonkor, that doesn't hurt you (and you don't have the right to deny them that fun). Use it or do not - each person can decide for themselves!

P.S. I love the variety of weapons in this game.

This issue has already been extensively covered by EDYinnit, and to a lesser degree by myself. Read previous posts to see the arguments/explanations.

I've resigned myself to not bothering to try to respond to ridiculous claims and personal attacks in this thread (^Ax10m...), as everything has been covered to an extremely redundant degree. Still, sometimes something so out there is posted I can't help myself. Ah well.

[TheBrsrkr]

1 hour ago, JohnnyQuantum said:

This is a game (not a contest or competition), people play for fun. If their idea of fun is running around blowing things up with a tonkor, that doesn't hurt you (and you don't have the right to deny them that fun). Use it or do not - each person can decide for themselves!

P.S. I love the variety of weapons in this game.

 

From literally the second page in the thread:

 

On 3/15/2016 at 8:32 PM, EDYinnit said:

Counterpoint: Should the fun of one individual through a non-risk, maximally-rewarding option be preserved at the cost of the fun of up to three fellow squadmembers who cannot use their own tools of choice because of the disproportionate influence of the one?

When you give a player the ability to remove the agency of other players in a multiplayer, cooperative environment, you have created a problem.

Think of Limbo before you could roll out of being Banished. You had no control or capacity to play the game because your ally thought it was funny to banish you. And he's probably giggling like a madman that he just did it, so yes he's having fun.

 

I mean, Ember still gets nerf threads and she's not even close to being capable of instakilling Sortie 3 heavies in one shot with WOF ticks.

 

On 3/15/2016 at 8:35 PM, Drasiel said:

Yes I do know it drastically reduces my friends' fun when I use a tonkor because they've told me that it does. I think either I explained that situation poorly or you misunderstood what I meant by it. 

There are many different guns that could fill the tonkor's current meta position (and arguably the synoid simular is competing directly with it, but requires much more effort/money and minorly more skill to wield.) with no problem without disrupting the powercurve of weaponry in the game. But they will never be given a chance because the tonkor is just that little bit easier, just that little bit safer, and just little bit more effective. 

I don't want the tonkor to disapear as an option I want it to be tuned into something less disruptive (yes, some people find it disruptive, I don't personally care), less completely brainless, and less "one-stop-shop for all your weapon needs from rank 5 to infinity".

your point is your opinion and you are welcome to keep it, I will continue to disagree. Also as an aside and not directed towards you in any hostile manner you do realize you essentially just wrote "if the point of playing the game was having fun we wouldn't be having this conversation..." we have entered a world of madness lol.

On 3/15/2016 at 8:16 PM, EDYinnit said:

Too good is not based on skill and opinion when the cause for being too good is removing skill and being statistically better.

An Ogris has 500 base damage (listed damage includes projectile impact, a separate 150). A Tonkor has 325 base damage.

Ogris has 5% crit chance of 2x damage. Tonkor, 35% chance of 2.5x damage.

 

Taking average of crits using the formula

damage+(critChance*(damage*(critMultiplier-1)))

gives us:

Ogris at 525 damage/shot; Tonkor at 495.625 damage/shot.

 

However, consider that:

• Tonkor has a higher blast radius
• Ogris must charge, reducing its fire rate to far below that of the Tonkor (1.5 charge + 1 fire rate = 0.4 rockets/sec)
• More high-value mods can be added to crit weaponry, reducing the diminishing returns of power-per-mod-slot compared to base damage weaponry
• Tonkor can freely be used at any power level at point blank range, making its arc aim 'difficulty' irrelevant.

 

For the record, after taking into account fire rate and reloading, base damage stats with no mods look like this:

Ogris: 175 sustained DPS (in aoe)

Tonkor: 330.42 sustained DPS (in larger aoe)

At least try to read some of the thread before posting. 

[cx-dave]

2 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

Damage 3.0 is needed to bring things in order again, but now we have whole generations of players who know nothing but trivial "non-gameplay" entrenched in this broken, lopsided system.  

I have no objection to a more holistic approach of that problem. Well said.