Weapon Balance Problem: Zhuge VS Attica

[Necr0Ra1se]

I won't write a long topic about how Zhuge beats Attica in every way.....Only 2 questions to DE.
1) Do "Weapon team" know what balance means?
2) Any reason to research/build/use Attica instead of Zhuge?

[Fukushu]

Aside from aesthetics and different damage outputs, it probably comes down to your playstyle. Want a crossbow that hits hard with a good crit chance? Go with the Attica. Prefer to hit faster while inflicting status procs? Go with the Zhuge. Their crit chances are even with the Zhuge having a slightly higher crit multiplier though, which could probably put them on even ground if you build them for crit chance, so I guess it really just comes down to someone preferring flat crits or status damage.

[(PSN)KikoEschobar]

1 hour ago, Necr0Ra1se said:

I won't write a long topic about how Zhuge "rapes" Attica in every way.....Only 2 questions to DE.
1) Do "Weapon team" know what balance means?
2) Any reason to research/build/use Attica instead of Zhuge?

1) They don't.They could careless about what you or I consider balanced as they probably should. Balance in f2p games = bankruptcy, plus you have to sell content to people. Content that would not get a second look as a sidegrade to an older weapon.

2) Mastery Rank. Nuff said.

[Sabrewolfe]

1 hour ago, Fukushu said:

Aside from aesthetics and different damage outputs, it probably comes down to your playstyle. Want a crossbow that hits hard with a good crit chance? Go with the Attica. Prefer to hit faster while inflicting status procs? Go with the Zhuge. Their crit chances are even with the Zhuge having a slightly higher crit multiplier though, which could probably put them on even ground if you build them for crit chance, so I guess it really just comes down to someone preferring flat crits or status damage.

Err what? How are you making this comparison? Zhuge beats it in every single way apart from having slightly lower damage but it's critical multiplier more than makes up for it. Zhuge also shoots faster, has a larger magazine, and reloads faster.

[Miku_Empowered]

Zhuge JUST CAME OUT, and  we have these problems?

although the difference in fire rate is only .8, that's a lot, you'll feel it.

While both are repeating crossbows, Attica lean closer to the bow "feel" hard hitting, accurate, slow, and powerful.

Zhuge feels like a bow and a automatic gun had a one night stand, its fast, weaker, and just "feels" not like a bow.

Just because 1 gun is slightly better than the other, doesn't mean you shouldn't use it. 25 damage amplified by mods is a lot.

its like the argument between Telos Boltor vs Boltor Prime or Tigris vs Sancti Tigris, just because one is a slightly better gun, the other gun isn't useless.

I fuking love the design choices, THEY GAVE US MORE OPTION TO PICK FROM, from picking between Attica or no crossbow at all to Attica or Zhuge, what's not to like?

Why would you build the Attica? because its still fun and powerful. because its another OPTION if you want a repeating crossbow

However, if your spamming ROF and multi shot to proc thunderbolt, then you have no reason to not go with zhuge.

[LazyKnight]

Use the weapon you like. If you were using Attica and were having fun, why stop? 

One issue about Zhuge is, it requires somewhat rarer resources, Attica's only rare item for construction is a forma.

Edited March 17, 2016 by LazyKnight
Typos

[Ashendal]

2 hours ago, Miku_Empowered said:

Why would you build the Attica? because its still fun and powerful. because its another OPTION if you want a repeating crossbow

The point he's making is it deals close to the same base damage, it has the same crit chance, a higher crit damage multiplier (meaning that the lower damage isn't relevant anymore), has a higher status chance, has a higher fire rate, has a faster reload speed, AND has a bigger magazine. It literally is the Attica, but better. It should have been the Attica Prime stats honestly. That makes me sad because I love the Attica, and even though I'll still use it because I heavily invested forma into it, I know I'll be dealing less damage and contributing less in terms of elemental utility from procs to any teams that I join.

The only saving grace is that hopefully we can get an Attica Prime to make it at least as good as the Zhuge. (Please?)

Edited March 17, 2016 by Ashendal
typo

[MarcusGraves]

OP is right, some people missing the point that the Zhuge is the exact definition of power creep and is a 100% straight upgrade to the Attica even with the less damage simply because it has a higher crit multiplier which will easily put it above Attica and waaaaay better status chance letting it easily be both a crit and a status weapon. Even the faster reload and bigger clip size contributes to better DPS w/o even looking at the better firerate as well.

Hell, you could even consider it better to build now because you're not wasting a forma to make it either, which does matter because that's one less forma you're wasting to specialize it more and Nitain + Argon really isn't really super demanding since like 4 Nitain alerts pop up each day.

Attica has officially become mastery fodder.

[Vulture051]

I like the Zhuge simply because the Attica sounds so dinky.

[CCamp88]

I will always be a defender of the Attica. It was one of the first weapons ive built. I actually used the starting plat to get the forma to build it. After which, it carried me through the whole game, allowing me to establish myself. It has the option/utility to do just about anything and everything.  Crit, Status, Damage, Stealth. Has it all. Plus having a higher RoF is not always better. It may seem better on paper, but not in the field. Take and amprex for example. Normally, you just overkill and eat through ammo. Put crit delay on it. And with a slower RoF it is actually alot more viable. Being able to shoot/kill for a longer time before reloading is huge in missions with continuous enemy spawn. 

I am not putting the Zhuge down in anyway. Its good to have that choice. Just like anything in warframe, a weapon is completely viable with the right modding. Regardless. It comes down to player preference and the way one likes the feel of the  weapon. Karak for example, the thing just feels like a good assualt rifle,even with low mag, lowish dmg, practically non existent crit and status, the gun can still be made viable to play 95% of the content. 

As for the mastery fodder thing. Yeah, it may just be another weapon to level. But the whole point of "mastery" is to get a feel for every weapon. The pros, cons, and everything in between. If you are someone who actually ranks up the weapons theirself instead of having them level through shared exp, then you know this all too well.

Regards,

 

-CCamp88

[Zagatou]

I will wait for Attica Prime, it will outperform the Zhuge :)
Pretty sure about it.

[phoenix1992]

I am having duality issues for it.
I like that it is not another fodder or poorly executed weapon *cough mutalist cernost cough*
I do not like that it turns other weapons into fodder.

Is it at least... gated in any way?

PS: Checked - MR0 - I really hope it is a bug.

Edited March 17, 2016 by phoenix1992

[Laidain]

Okay,well since DE released this new bow,it seems they have no choice but to create a prime crossbow,and its going to be the Attica,it has to be...I mean we have yet to get a prime version for crossbows.

[shut]

I haven't tried either weapon, but how's the recoil on the Attica?

I hear the Zhuge is an absolute recoil monster, so if the Attica has more manageable recoil, then the two weapons might still be overall sidegrades despite Zhuge having a noticeable edge in raw stats. It would be great if someone who has used both weapons could compare for us.

Edited March 17, 2016 by SortaRandom

[-N7-Leonhart]

27 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

I haven't tried either weapon, but how's the recoil on the Attica?

I hear the Zhuge is an absolute recoil monster, so if the Attica has more manageable recoil, then the two weapons might still be overall sidegrades despite Zhuge having a noticeable edge in raw stats. It would be great if someone who has used both weapons could compare for us.

Attica does have recoil, but it's manageable enough for you to fire full auto in pretty much the same spot.

[LazyKnight]

@SortaRandom  If you want take a look at Mogamu's old video of Attica. I have not used it recently,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QK2ibkvgYXA&index=234&list=PLJpk1Jz4H-zUP0b9YrG8iMITY2MLzlFnj

 

Edited March 17, 2016 by LazyKnight

[hukurokuju5]

why do people scream " EQUALITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

too much butthurt jealousy and self victimizing in this world. 

 

[Soup2504]

1 hour ago, hukurokuju5 said:

why do people scream " EQUALITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

too much butthurt jealousy and self victimizing in this world. 

 

What in the absolute hell are you on about?

[Necr0Ra1se]

13 hours ago, hukurokuju5 said:

why do people scream " EQUALITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

too much butthurt jealousy and self victimizing in this world. 

 

Can you please explain your comment....I really don't understand whay you mean by "Equality"?

[letir]

On 15.03.2016 at 5:00 AM, Necr0Ra1se said:

I won't write a long topic about how Zhuge "rapes" Attica in every way.....Only 2 questions to DE.
1) Do "Weapon team" know what balance means?
2) Any reason to research/build/use Attica instead of Zhuge?

1) No, they don't. They also regulary f*** up with MR lock and cost.

2) Mastery fodder. Power Creep train is on the way.

[chuckdm]

There's a whole other set of threads about the virtues of crit vs. status.  For melee, crit wins out pretty hard, but for guns it's less clear.  That said, if we assume that crit guns and status guns have equal value, then we can have this discussion, but first I personally would argue that we actually CAN'T say making two similar weapons and making one crit and one status is truly a sidegrade, which is kinda what we all want non-prime similar guns to be - sidegrades.  Prime weapons should be direct upgrades, fine, but everything else should be a sidegrade.  I think most people agree on that.

The problem is that the crit v. status debate actually hinges on the rate of fire of the weapon AND on the kind of status you want to proc.  For example, since Viral doesn't stack, a slow-firing weapon with a 100% status chance will make a better Viral status gun than a fast-firing weapon like a Grakata with a 40% status.  On the other hand, Corrosive does stack, so the bullet hose with a relatively lower flat status chance is more effective for Corrosive because you can always pump the RoF higher until that simply strips armor faster, period.

Crit guns simply do not have this problem.  A Soma and a Dread both benefit equally from being high-crit weapons.  But, when we try to compare them to status guns, the above issue plays into it.  If we compare a crit-focused Prisma Grakata to a status build for the same, and if that status is Corrosive, the status build might actually do more raw damage.  If the build is Viral, not so much.

Back to the Attica and the Zhuge, the problem we have is that the RoF on both weapons is fairly low.  Even with Shred on my Zhuge, I can manually click my AkMagnus faster than this with about the same recoil.  This means the Zhuge fires too fast to make optimal use of a Viral build, but too slow to rapidly apply Corrosive.  It would be fine if you didn't need THREE dual-stat mods to get the 98% status chance on the Zhuge, but since you do, your status is split between FIVE damage types.  The odds that each arrow procs the damage you actually want (Corrosive) is actually 20%.  This doesn't matter in something firing as fast as a Grakata but it's problematic on the Zhuge.

Meanwhile, there really isn't any reason to use the Attica over the Zhuge.  Anything the Attica does, the Zhuge does better.  The minor base damage difference doesn't matter at all because you aren't building EITHER weapon for raw damage.  Even with Shred on mine, I can keep all 20 shots of the Zhuge on target at 30m - any farther and targets move too fast, but the Attica is no better - firing full auto, so recoil isn't an issue with either weapon.

I guess my point is this: The Zhuge isn't a sidegrade, it's an upgrade.  But it is not so clear how to make it a sidegrade.  I agree with the assertion that this is a problem.  I don't agree that it's as easy to fix as giving the Attica a crit buff and calling it a day because even a fairly minor crit buff would probably obsolete the Zhuge due to the questionable nature of either gun being a status weapon anyway.

[CS0310]

On 17.3.2016 at 2:20 AM, Miku_Empowered said:

*spewing bullS#&$*

Stop it.

The Zhuge deals more DPS, has a bigger mag, faster reload, and higher status chance.
It's objectively better than the Attica, even if only by a small margin. Stop trying to defend the antithesis of weapon balance.

[-N7-Leonhart]

Although Zhuge is around 15% better than Attica in sustained DPS due to the supporting stats, with a crit build their damage per hit stays the same. The difference here is much much lower than in some other cases when weapons get outclassed by much. I don't really see the point of a thread just for that.

[Fari]

On 3/16/2016 at 4:50 PM, Fukushu said:

Aside from aesthetics and different damage outputs, it probably comes down to your playstyle. Want a crossbow that hits hard with a good crit chance? Go with the Attica. Prefer to hit faster while inflicting status procs? Go with the Zhuge. Their crit chances are even with the Zhuge having a slightly higher crit multiplier though, which could probably put them on even ground if you build them for crit chance, so I guess it really just comes down to someone preferring flat crits or status damage.

Except actually, Zhuge has BETTER per hit damage if you invest in crit. Due to the whole 2x multiplier versus 1.5x multiplier.

[Fukushu]

2 hours ago, NearoC said:

Except actually, Zhuge has BETTER per hit damage if you invest in crit. Due to the whole 2x multiplier versus 1.5x multiplier.

Okay, so my assumptions were wrong, and now that I've had a chance to use the Zhuge, yeah, it's better, though it'd be nice if the recoil wasn't so over exaggerated. I've never fired a crossbow in reality, but do they really have recoil like that?

On topic though, better or not, I still feel players should choose one or the other based on which one they like more. A personal example would be the Dread and Miter I have in my arsenal: Both deal primarily slash damage, both play in a similar manner, but the Dread (when modded properly) is much stronger than the Miter, and yet I prefer to use the Miter because I love the way it looks, I love using Grineer tech, and I don't like short bows. In my personal opinion, the Attica and the Zhuge should be a similar case of choosing the one you like the looks of, but we're unfortunately stuck in a game full of enemies that just keep getting stronger and weapons made to counter them instead of making proper balance, causing many weapons to be better than others and making players look down on anything that can't kill a level 150 Heavy Gunner in 0.25 seconds, despite the fact that isn't what Warframe is meant to be balanced around.

In short, players should be allowed to play with what they want, not with what kills extremely high leveled enemies that you don't normally encounter the fastest. If that's your play style, then fine, take your min-maxed gear and do what you want, but for the rest of us that play normally? Grab what you like and kill, and hope all weapons will be made "end game viable" some point down the line.