Problem with fast hands and primed fast hands

[TrueHawkEye]

I been messing around with a bunch of weapons and started to noticed that the reload seconds does not correspond. Why just got bored and well having done everything i thought this could use some fixing. All the values were found in the in game menu arsenal.

The math used to find this is the following since were taking off 30 and 55 i am going to use 70 and 45 since that is what reminds for the answer.

example say you want to find out what is 1.8 and have fast hands so that 30% you would calculate it as the following .3 x 1.8= 0.54 but that is only the 30% to take away. but if we use 70 so it would be .7 x 1.8=1.26 which would be what left for the actual reload speed

Here is some of my findings (weapons i own) with max fast hands since its 30% and maxed fast hands primed since its 55%.

rifles and other mixed in

• tonkor normal reload 2.0 fast hands 1.5 but should be 1.4 and primed fast hands shows 1.3 but should be 0.9
• boltor prime normal reload 2.4 Fast hands 1.8 but should be 1.68 Primed fast hands 1.5 but should be 1.08
• braton prime normal 2.2  Fast hands 1.7 but should be 1.54 primed 1.4 but should be .99
• dera vandal 2.4 fast hands 1.8 but should be 1.68 primed fast hands 1.5 but should be 1.08
• flux rifle 2.0 fast hands 1.5 but should be 1.4 primed fast hands 1.3 but should be 0.9
• glaxon 1.5 fast hands 1.2 but should be 1.05 primed fast hands 1.0 but should be 0.675
• gorgon wraith 3.0 fast hands 2.3 but should be 2.1 primed fast hands 1.9 but should be 1.35
• harpak 2.0 fast hands 1.5 but should be 1.4 primed fast hands 1.3 but should be 0.9
• karak wraith 2.0 fast hands 1.5 but should be 1.4 primed fast hands 1.3 but should be 0.9
• latron prime 2.4 fast hands 1.8 but should be 1.68 primed fast hands 1.5 but should be 1.08
• latron wraith 2.4 fast hands 1.8 but should be 1.68 primed fast hands 1.5 but should be 1.08
• mutalist quanta 3.0 fast hands 2.3 but should be 2.1 primed fast hands 1.9 but should be 1.35
• orgis 2.5 fast hands 1.9 but should be 1.75 primed fast hands 1.6 but should be 1.125
• opticor 2.0 fast hands 1.5 but should be 1.4 primed fast hands 1.3 but should be 0.9
• panthera 2.0 fast hands 1.5 but should be 1.4 primed fast hands 1.3 but should be 0.9
• paracyst 2.0 fast hands 1.5 but should be 1.4 primed fast hands 1.3 but should be 0.9
• penta 2.5 fast hands 1.9 but should be 1.75 primed fast hands 1.6 but should be 1.125
• prisma gorgon 3.0 fast hands 2.3 but should be 2.1 primed fast hands 1.9 but should be 1.35
• prisma tetra 2.0 fast hands 1.5 but should be 1.4 primed fast hands 1.3 but should be 0.9
• quanta 2.0 fast hands 1.5 but should be 1.4 primed fast hands 1.3 but should be 0.9
• quanta vandal 2.0 fast hands 1.5 but should be 1.4 primed fast hands 1.3  but should be 0.9
• secura penta 2.5 fast hands 1.9 but should be 1.75 primed fast hands 1.6 but should be 1.125
• simulor 3.0 fast hands 2.3 but should be 2.1 primed fast hands 1.9 but should be 1.35
• soma 3.0 fast hands 2.3 but should be 2.1 primed fast hands 1.9 but should be 1.35
• soma prime 3.0 fast hands 2.3 but should be 2.1 primed fast hands 1.9 but should be 1.35
• sybaris 2.0 fast hands 1.5 but should be 1.4 primed fast hands 1.3 but should be 0.9
• synoid simulor 2.0 fast hands 1.5 but should be 1.4 primed fast hands 1.3 but should be 0.9
• telos boltor 2.4 fast hands 1.8 but should be 1.68 primed fast hands 1.5 but should be 1.08
• tiberon 2.3 fast hands 1.7 but should be 1.61 primed fast hands 1.3 but should be 1.035
• zhuge 2.5 fast hands 1.9 but should be 1.75 primed fast hands 1.6 but should be 1.125
• buzlock 3.0 fast hands 2.3 but should be 2.1 primed fast hands 1.9 but should be 1.35

snipers

• rubico 3.0 fast hands 2.3 but should be 2.1 primed fast hands 1.9 but should be 1.35
• snipetron 2.5 fast hands 2.7 but should be 1.75 primed fast hands 2.3  but should be 1.125
• vetis 0.9 fast hands 0.7 but should be 0.63 primed fast hands 0.5 but should be 0.405
• vetis prime 0.9 fast hands 0.7 but should be 0.63 primed fast hands 0.5 but should be 0.405
• vulkar wraith 3.0 fast hands 2.3 but should be 2.1 primed fast hands 1.9 but should be 1.35

sniper with primed fast hands actual math number and depleted reload max (+48% reload) (not sure if they stack or not but was going to take it from the actual answer and take another portion of the reload speed) (going to use the values i found with the depleted reload at 52% since that is what we want to keep) example the rubico at 1.35 since that its true value, so the equation would be .52 x 1.35 = 0.702 if the mods stack.

• rubico fast hands primed with depleted reload 1.5 but should be 0.702
• snipetron fast hands primed with depleted reload 1.7 but should be 0.585
• vetis fast hands primed with depleted reload 0.4 but should be 0.2106
• vetis prime  fast hands primed with deleted reload 0.4 but should be 0.2106
• vulkar wraith fast hands primed with depleted reload 1.5 but should be 0.702

shotguns (tactical pump maxed 30%)

• vaykor hek 2.3 tactical pump 1.7 but should be 1.61
• stun wraith 5.0 tactical pump 3.8 but should be 3.5
• sancti tigris 1.5 tactical pump 1.2 but should be 1.05
• phage 2.0 tactical pump 1.5 but should be 1.4
• krom 2.0 tactical pump 1.5 but should be 1.4
• drakgoon 2.3 tactical pump 1.8 but should be 1.61
• convectrix 2.0 tactical pump 1.5 but should be 1.4
• boar prime 2.8 tactical pump 2.1 but should be 1.96

bows (not sure if there is a limit on the reload speed or not but here is my findings)

• daikyu 0.6 fast hands 0.5 but should be .42 primed fast hands 0.4 but should be 0.27
• dread 0.7 fast hands 0.5 but should be 0.49 primed fast hands 0.5 but should be 0.315
• mutalist cernos 0.6 fast hands 0.5 but should be 0.42 primed fast hands 0.4 but should be 0.27
• paris prime 0.7 fast hands 0.5 but should be 0.49 primed fast hands 0.5  but should be 0.315
• rakta cernos  0.6 fast hands 0.5 but should be 0.42 primed fast hands 0.4 but should be 0.27

Sentinal weapons (coming soon)

Also note I am not hating or slandering anyone on the developer team just showing what I found with simple math and it bothered me that is all. I only noticed this since the tonkor had a reload speed of 2.0 and i had primed hast hands on at 50%  its should of been 1.0 but had 1.3.

[LazyKnight]

The mods reduce the total reload time by increasing the speed of the animation. It's not multiplication, but division. Base Reload Time ÷ (1+ Reload Speed Bonus).

[esapto]

it's reload speed increase, not a reaload time reduction.

The text description and the math are not wrong.

 

 

[TrueHawkEye]

36 minutes ago, LazyKnight said:

The mods reduce the total reload time by increasing the speed of the animation. It's not multiplication, but division. Base Reload Time ÷ (1+ Reload Speed Bonus).

But you take away or reduce or increase the reload time but 50%. Which should be half no? Its like calculating tax right?

[LazyKnight]

34 minutes ago, TrueHawkEye said:

But you take away or reduce or increase the reload time but 50%. Which should be half no? Its like calculating tax right?

No, it's like calculating for journey. It's like saying if it takes 30 minutes to get to the store, what happens if you drive the vehical 30% faster

Here's an example: '

    speed    miles    time        
base    60    30    30    (60/30)*60=30    

If speed is increased by 30%

          speed    miles   time

            78    30    23.08    (78/30)*60=23.08    
 

Edited March 19, 2016 by LazyKnight

[[DE]Momaw]

As others have indicated, the math is not wrong.

The easy way to think about this is thinking about what "100%" means.  Reducing reload time by 100% would mean the gun reloads in no time which is weird.  But increasing reload speed by 100% makes you reload twice as quickly, i.e., in half the time.

[KotoKuraken]

Nice bit of work you put in there with that math. It would be great if those mods worked like that, it would make them useful.

But, as other have pointed out, the Wiki clearly states the formula is "BaseReloadSpeed / (1 + ReloadSpeedIncrease)"

If you have BaseReloadSpeed = 2, ReloadSpeedIncrease = 55% or .55, then do:

2 / (1 + .55) = 1.2903225806451612903225806451613 or close nuff to 1.3

[-N7-Leonhart]

So yeah, it's not reducing the time, is increasing the speed of the animation +50% reload speed corresponds to 33% faster reload.

[Blades_In_The_Dark]

I think of it as: you put your cores in those mods? Hahaha trolled you! At least, that's what I think was in the developer's minds. I, too, pumped up my reloads because I thought they would help, but it turns out...surprise...the math and the description don't sink up! Great job, Quality Control Department, y'all let another troll stat slip through. It IS super-annoying, and it DOES highlight yet another reason why in-game info is usually useless and the Wiki is helpful. Don't worry, I'm sure they'll change it *soon*. It's only been a couple years and a series of these threads. 

PS: I'm just making light of the situation DE. I love you guys!

[-N7-Leonhart]

13 hours ago, LilithBlack said:

I think of it as: you put your cores in those mods? Hahaha trolled you! At least, that's what I think was in the developer's minds. I, too, pumped up my reloads because I thought they would help, but it turns out...surprise...the math and the description don't sink up! Great job, Quality Control Department, y'all let another troll stat slip through. It IS super-annoying, and it DOES highlight yet another reason why in-game info is usually useless and the Wiki is helpful. Don't worry, I'm sure they'll change it *soon*. It's only been a couple years and a series of these threads. 

PS: I'm just making light of the situation DE. I love you guys!

Rank 9 was half the cost to achieve on Primed Fast Hands. And it's very useful on some weapons that really need it.

[Naftal]

I still think they need to buff the value of all pure reload speed and magazine size mods to +10% per rank. As long as mods like these use the same slots as damage mods, they need to have proper values to fight for those slots.

[-N7-Leonhart]

3 minutes ago, Naftal said:

I still think they need to buff the value of all pure reload speed and magazine size mods to +10% per rank. As long as mods like these use the same slots as damage mods, they need to have proper values to fight for those slots.

Aren't they basically unchanged in 3 years? I don't think they are subject to change.

[Naftal]

1 minute ago, -BM-Leonhart said:

Aren't they basically unchanged in 3 years? I don't think they are subject to change.

There are other things that have been changed after a long time like snipers and scythes or the pure elemental mod values.

[-N7-Leonhart]

1 minute ago, Naftal said:

There are other things that have been changed after a long time like snipers and scythes or the pure elemental mod values.

It would be nice, but it's very doubtful. After all, as you could notice, they only changed stuff that needed the change BAD. Look at Warm Coat and other useless status mods and you will get a good idea.

[Naftal]

1 minute ago, -BM-Leonhart said:

It would be nice, but it's very doubtful. After all, as you could notice, they only changed stuff that needed the change BAD. Look at Warm Coat and other useless status mods and you will get a good idea.

I would argue that these mods and pure status mods are in a much bigger need of a change than the pure elemental mods were. Hard to say if they'll ever do anything to them. How they've changed old things before makes it seem like all these mods will get a change at some point too.

[torint_man]

To the OP: the way that fast hands works is NOT reducing the time of the reload, it is increasing the speed of the reload. The difference is that the former would simply mean subtracting off the reload time, while the latter is increasing the rate of reloading. 

Think of it like this. Let's say in order to reload a weapon, you need to apply 100 "units" to it. Let's say a gun has a reload rate of 40 units per second. It will take 100/40 = 2.5 seconds to reload the weapon. If we increase the reload speed by 50%, the gun now reloads at 60 units per second. The reload time is now 100/60 = 1.66 seconds. This is what fast hands does when applying its reload speed boost. The tonkor takes 2 seconds to reload, so it has a base rate of 50 units per second. A max primed fast hands increases this to 77.5 units per second. Now the tonkor takes 100/77.5 = 1.29 seconds which rounds up to 1.3, lining up exactly with the game. 

[Blades_In_The_Dark]

On 3/21/2016 at 5:57 AM, -BM-Leonhart said:

Rank 9 was half the cost to achieve on Primed Fast Hands. And it's very useful on some weapons that really need it.

Which neatly dodges the point that the math and the description don't sink up which is misleading. A mod that would be near the top of my list winds up much closer to the bottom of the pile.  

[Inarticulate]

50 minutes ago, LilithBlack said:

Which neatly dodges the point that the math and the description don't sink up which is misleading. A mod that would be near the top of my list winds up much closer to the bottom of the pile.  

Either you can't read or you don't know what the difference between "speed" and "time" is. The text on the mod is verbatim "+[x]% RELOAD SPEED", which is exactly what the mod does: increase the speed of your reload animation by [x]%.

The only mods in the game that are actually wrong are the mods for "power efficiency" (which should be written "power cost reduction") and "charge time" (which actually affects "charge speed" and not "charge time").

[Blades_In_The_Dark]

1 hour ago, Inarticulate said:

Either you can't read or you don't know what the difference between "speed" and "time" is. The text on the mod is verbatim "+[x]% RELOAD SPEED", which is exactly what the mod does: increase the speed of your reload animation by [x]%.

The only mods in the game that are actually wrong are the mods for "power efficiency" (which should be written "power cost reduction") and "charge time" (which actually affects "charge speed" and not "charge time").

I can read just fine but I certainly didn't notice it right away...I equipped Fast Hands and noticed something was off in-game, so I checked the math and only THEN noticed the wording was off. 

So, for me, the price of Prime Fast Hands wasn't too bad because I was aware beforehand.

I actually HAD read the mod wrong, but like the original poster, I didn't realize it at first. Heck, I thought I found a bug or something! I was all excited. Then I re-read it once I got back in-game and was like, " oh".

So, yeah, maybe it's grammatically correct, but I still feel it and a few others (Vitality, Redirection, I'm looking at you) are misleading.

Edited March 22, 2016 by LilithBlack
Edited for clarity and respect

[Wawazat]

On 3/19/2016 at 3:20 PM, LazyKnight said:

The mods reduce the total reload time by increasing the speed of the animation. It's not multiplication, but division. Base Reload Time ÷ (1+ Reload Speed Bonus).

this is correct and all but it really shouldnt be this way, the reload improvement from primed fast hands instead of regular is negligible most of the time :(