There are only 6 major roles for frames in the game and Trinity dominates almost half of them

[Kutsus]

Well, this thread is probably a S#&$storm so im not enve gonna read the 5 pages of posts... But, as for Trinity nerfs, i agree with this, self dmg into 99% blessing is stupid, as for EV i think the problem is simply the range + amount of energy... Allowing stuff like RJ at Draco without needing a ton of energy restores. That being said, Energy restores and Ancient Healer specters allow any frame to support themselves (hence making trinity almost useless), so the game does make an attempt at balance there... I think Trinity simply needs to be mroe versatile, nerf her support abilities a bit, and give her some other stuff like more CC and Dmg.

Some "nerfs" i think would work: EV needs a minimum duration cap so as not to highly encourage the use of a build that makes her 3 other abilities nearly useless, however, i think EV should also create some form of group CC, perhaps the energy waves could knock down enemies, or cause them pain and stun them similarly to the fire proc, this would have very short range ofc.
Blessing dmg reduction needs to be capped at soemthing mcuh lower than 99% for obvious reasons... And as an indirect nerf, self-dmg from certain weapons shoudl be reduced so that u cant do high dmg to urself very quickly. (Glaive, Angstrum, Penta, Ogris, Castanas etc, this will also make these wapons more popular).

[JefPlays]

I mean, it's not like dedicated healers are a common trope in RPG style thingys or anything

[DaftMeat]

Wait, Trinity dominates Defense more than Frost, Limbo, or Nyx?

What?

[lerfi]

Ash:

Crowd Control

AOE Damage

Defence

Undetectability

 

[Manyc]

10 minutes ago, DaftMeat said:

Wait, Trinity dominates Defense more than Frost, Limbo, or Nyx?

What?

It was a slight confusion, they mean Supporting Buff, squad defense / survival. Referring to Blessing.

[Serafim_94]

Again. A lot of balance issues come not from skill being OP, but from bad game design.

You know why Trinity is OP? Becouse she offers the way to counter $&*&*#(%& damage scaling. And becouse she allows to bypass extremely inconsistent energy restore system we have, while also countering "lolnope" enemies like Parasitic eximi and Disruptors, which are the definition of bad design. Same effect can be dublicated by energy restores and syndicate procs, btw. Nerf them too?

Edit: Wow. Just look at that profanity filter :P

Edited March 20, 2016 by Serafim_94

[Bizzaro21]

who cares? we all know powers scale better than weapons, and her powers dont kill sh*t, also, FYI, Limbo is a better support than her, he provides semi-godmode and energy regen

EDIT: and with haven augment, he can also fill the healing role

EDIT 2: ~ 2/6 is not half, it`s third

Edited March 20, 2016 by Bizzaro21

[CrimsonDalekanium]

13 hours ago, Fifield said:

This leaves the other 29 frames to compete over the remaining roles.  No wonder ~19 warframes are largely unused.

The major roles in rough order of importance:

1. Crowd control
2. Energy provider
3. Defence
4. Undetectability
5. AOE damage
6. Healer
   
   --> Trinity-dominated roles in bold.  She's also one of the best at defence.  AOE damage is low on the list because of weapons like Tonkor and Sonicor.
    
7. Single target damage
8. Damage buffing 
9. Farming
10. Speed boost
    
    --> Minor roles.  Guns do already hit incredibly more damage for #7 and #8.  #9 is a barely legitimate role.

*snip*

"You're attacking Trinity"
Trinity is a machine, merely designated female so stop being emotionally attached.  Also, "she" is unique in dominating multiple major roles.  But to make you feel better, here's a list of the other OP abilities:
Exalted Blade
Snowglobe
Invisibility
Prism
Molecular Prime.
Bastille
Vortex

Farming is a legitimate role. Admittedly, there are only two or three frames (Nekros, Pilfdroid, and maybe Ivara if you're solo) that can do it, but the first two are just so useful. I would argue that there is another role, that of "Reviver". The reviver slot is often taken up by a tank or stealth frame (Ivara, ash, loki, valkyr, rhino, limbo, even frost). 

 

You aren't going to put Bladestorm (especially with rising storm and body count) on the list of OP abilities, or Mag's Shield Polarize (vs corpus)? How about radial blind with corrupted mods? Banshee's sound quake (with efficiency, energy cap, and range mods)? Volt's invincible shield, which is a directional snowglobe? Wukong's defy combined with rage (or even without it)? Wukong's cloud walker (invincibility, a short initial enemy stun, healing from status, shield can regen, AND near-unlimited movement)? Nekros' soul punch augment (INSTANT revives forever with a zenurik lens and efficiency mods)? Saryn's miasma? Ember's WoF with aug? Valkyr's Hysteria with Warcry? Nyx's spammable chaos? Limbo's rift walk turns him near-invincible and he can pick and choose when and what he wants to battle, along with being immune to energy drain and generating base 2 e/s.  That's a good 13 abilities across 12 warframes that can become very good, and 11 of those frames were not included on the "OP skills" list.

Bastille is only crazy good with the augment, and even then only vs infested or with a disarm loki. 

 

My point is that there are very few warframes without the capacity to be tremendously good in a specific role, and it mostly depends on A. your play style, B. What mods you have, C. What faction you are playing against. For example, would you ever take a vauban to a corpus spy mission? You COULD, but there are better options. 

[(PSN)theelix]

There aren't all these roles.

There's Offensive, Defensive, and Support. While there are mixes and intermittent areas between these three primary roles, even things that encompass all three, these are the main roles.

Trinity dominates Support, as she's supposed to. She is the White Mage. There always needs to be a White Mage. It's fine to have a White Mage. I think DE's doing it just fine, even if she out paces some of the other Warframes in Support.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

I agree with OP on every. single. word. Big +1!

Of all the glaring balance issues in this game EV probably takes the cake, since it completely destroys energy economy being a balancing feature for the skills of ALL frames. As if energy wasn't far too easy to come by anyway... Now, probably the biggest design flaw of it: She refuels HERSELF with it, too! It's a freaking perpetuum mobile! Making it at least cost herself providing the whole team with energy and shields would be the very least to ask, tho i'd rather see it go completely.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[Marbelik]

7 hours ago, Fifield said:

EV can't be replaced by pizzas since you have to stand still, with everyone crowded on one spot to use the latter.  Also, placing them can be a PITA and you have to check someone's bringing the large ones.  EV is near global, can be used on the move, works a lot faster and every Trinity has it.

Would this heavily nerfed Trinity be too weak to fit the meta?  I don't think so.  Energy provision would remain the most or second most important ability in the game.  She would still be best at it, even if her 1 wasn't remade.

EV is near global? Really? You want to nerf a Frame just because everyone uses the Trinity EV build which causes his 3 and 4 to be way too much less effective. Leaving to use them as very short timed panic buttons. I hate the Ev build, but i had to use it when i use Trinity because people get Toxic if you dont do it.

 

So far i have been replacing EV with 2 kind "Pizza's". One called Large Energy Team Restore and the other Large Shield Team Restore whenever i needed energy and wanted some overshields to be kind of "safe". Also the Large Healing Team Restore can almost heal fully any warframe, exception being Inaros though.

 

Your points were valid until i came to read this comment.

[Marbelik]

Just like it happened to Saryn, people use this warframe because of what it seems to be a bug but was let to be a feature. The way the 2 of Trinity interacts with negative Duration.

 

If that is fixed i highly believe people will get toxic about the nerf, but would stop people from only asking Trinity for EV only. Also making it have a fixed range would be good...

[spacedkadet]

Ok so lets look at it in another more logical way.

How many ev trinitys do you see on normal standard missions,  none. How many ev trinitys do you see in harder missions like sorties that aren't set-up in advance (i.e just pubbing a sortie) none. You only really see ev trinitys on pre-made squads where they are requested. If they are requested then they are wanted. Do not join those groups if you for whatever reason have a dislike of ev trinitys. If you want to do missions without an ev then setup a squad without one, she isn't needed if you have the energy focus school anyway.

Stop calling for nerfs just because she rattles your cage. Oh and I still have yet to see one single idea of how you would change her to be more to your liking, for feedback to be feedback you actually need to give some.

[(PSN)Marvalis1]

We need another Warframe that can give out power, Trinity is the only one.

[Jangkrik]

As much as I agree to your points, I'd rather have frames like Oberon, Atlas, Mag, Nezha, Wukong, and Zephyr buffed.

Also, why isn't aggro-ing/tanking enemies a category?

Edited March 20, 2016 by Jangkrik

[Currilicious]

2 hours ago, vazerd68 said:

The main point of the "nerf threads" is that the game would be way too easy this way. As long as it is properly balanced, I'm fine with it. We already have frames at this level so it wouldn't really make the game easier than it is now. I'd prefer it harder tho.

Then I guess we see games differently.

I would rather have an "easy" game and challenge myself with my own set of rules than have the game define that for me.

Some will argue that means doing things inefficiently. My question would be, do you want a challenge or do you want that shiny loot?

Using the nerf route is a downward cycle. Min-maxers will always find other mechanisms to maximize efficiency, with ease of execution. Eventually, another round of nerf cries will commence. This will be a never-ending chase for "balance", at the expense of players that just want to have fun and not play the game like an Olympic event.

 

[jinxeverything]

2 hours ago, rawr1254 said:

His rebuttal will be its infinite range and all. The nerfers never think too hard on the reason to and that's the fact that EVERY healer is not actually a good healer.Trinity only gives dmg reduction but that can only achieve 99% and with Quick Thinking being a requirement. If blessing isn't up teammates go down if they dont have QT themselves. Same is said for Oberon/Equinox/etc. All these healers have NO way of keeping you healed late game without you going down in one hit. I could turn on a max duration/str renewal and my teammate would still go down if they dont have QT. So is Trin an OP healer? Yes and no. Yes in the fact it's instant and infinite in range, no in the fact that you need QT for its heal to be any good.

Your post makes me sad, a lot, not because of your points but because of how most players mentality which is like this, if something didn't die after i press 1, 2, 3 or 4 this frame is useless, worthless and just a mastery fodder not caring about the fun you could have with it :/

When i put my hands on any frames the first thing i do is try my hardest to understand how each ability works and how to take advantage of it in solo or coop games, that's why i don't see some as too OP or worthless, they each have a use it's just a matter of when to use it and on who!

[Attel_Malagate]

>nerfing is bad

YES, yes it is, because it make poeple upset that the weapon/frame/whatever they put effort/money/time to get and level up is voided, I'm one of them, if I play this game, it IS to be an immortal demigod golem who slaughter anything in its path, like it or not, it is how most poeple play the game and are fine with that, my 1300 something hours in this game wheren't for nothing, they where put into all my gear to make it as strong as it is now, a nerf after all that time would just be a slap in the face and guess what, poeple dont like that.

>But this frame has X Y Z skills

Trinity is good in the 3 domains you mentioned because she HAS NOTHING ELSE, she is MEANT to FOCUS on thoose abilities, and actualy play in a unique maner, unlike all thoose generic wanabe good frames who cant do anything right while trying to do everything (equinox, atlas, wukong, nezha, oberon) and guess what, i HATE all of them because I, like a lot of poeple who main a specific frame, trinity in that case, I dont care about dealing damage, thus, we turn to warframes that are specialised in what we like, and imo thats why you dont see a lot of thoose generic frames around, poeple want specific thing, and trinity, is specificaly made for heal and self relyance, stop trying to prevent poeple to play the way they want, peroid

IMO you didn't hunderstand what this game was about, it has never been about "chalange", go play multiplayer games for this, or try to hold 80 waves with unranked gears, the only limits to how chalenging warframe can get is your choise of moding, no need to limit other palyers.

I will just politely opose to you opinion and say that trinity is perfectly fine, underwelming frames like saryn/mag/ anything that isn't played are just in need of bufs.

[tripletriple]

The entire opening post can be summarized as "make the game more fun for me". Most people enjoy it the way it is. The other warframes are seriously underpowered.

Edited March 23, 2016 by tripletriple

[GrimAtrament]

energy providers a role?

[Cara360]

Or why not buff support frame or create new support frame to the same level as Trinity? Like:

• Removing Oberon travel healing ball to instant heal regeneration. 
• Mobs have a 50/50 chance to drop health orbs not by death but when slam to the ground, and a 10-25% to drop energy orbs? Oberon health orbs can be effected by strength.
• Increase Hallow ground by 10 meters length and 5 meters wide with a fix duration of 40-60 seconds similar Vauban's telsa ability. Can also increase allies and himself shields by 250% of their base stat. 
• When smite an enemy, it has a chance to follow its allies to health a 5-10% amount of health.
• Oberon passive is health orbs provide 15 energy and energy orbs provide 15 health.

This could bring Oberon to near level of Trinity, and maybe people will start using him more often. I know this is a argument of Trinity but I want people to know why not buff warframes instead? The only reason why I can think of DE won't nerf her again because she doesn't have any offensive power. Gun scaling tend to slope off when high levels.

BY THE WAY, I DON'T WON'T TO ARGUE WHETHER TRINITY IS OP OR NOT, THAT IS PEOPLE OPINION AND UP TO DE TO CHANGE IT OR NOT. AND LET'S TRY TO BE NICE PLEASE? Please excuse my grammar.

 

Edited March 21, 2016 by Cara360

[Inmemoratus]

18 hours ago, Fifield said:

The major roles in rough order of importance:

1. Crowd control
2. Energy provider
3. Defence
4. Undetectability
5. AOE damage
6. Healer
   
   --> Trinity-dominated roles in bold.  She's also one of the best at defence.  AOE damage is low on the list because of weapons like Tonkor and Sonicor.

I'm glad you ranked CC the highest because you're right, it is the most important. Trinity isn't good at CC. No wonder I feel like Mirage is 100x more dominant than Trinity.

Also glad you ranked healer low, since it's not really important. Most frames have the means to keep themselves alive. The ones that struggle to survive are the ones that see less use. Frames like Rhino and Valkyr contribute just as much to those squishier frames not being used.

AoE damage is low on the list due to weapons like Tonkor and Sonicor? I agree, and I apply the same logic for Energy. Why did you rank Energy so high? We have options like Energy Restores and the Zenurik focus. So instead of using an entire warframe for energy you can just use those. You definitely overrate the importance of it.

[Fifield]

4 hours ago, Currilicious said:

Then I guess we see games differently.

I would rather have an "easy" game and challenge myself with my own set of rules than have the game define that for me.

Some will argue that means doing things inefficiently. My question would be, do you want a challenge or do you want that shiny loot?

Using the nerf route is a downward cycle. Min-maxers will always find other mechanisms to maximize efficiency, with ease of execution. Eventually, another round of nerf cries will commence. This will be a never-ending chase for "balance", at the expense of players that just want to have fun and not play the game like an Olympic event.

How does balancing something stop you having fun?  You can only have fun when something is OP?

[Currilicious]

11 minutes ago, Fifield said:

How does balancing something stop you having fun?  You can only have fun when something is OP?

That would be yes, if I were to see things from your POV.

In all games, you play the main character in a story, your power level is by far greater than all the minor characters, AKA mobs.

How far the gap, varies depending on the game. I find that this game still give players a lot of leeway in gameplay whether to challenge themselves or go all out and slaughter everything with ease.

When content difficulty is pushed way up, you are in fact inadvertently limiting diversity as only the best stuff would work, AKA cheesing it.

I like the control to be in my hands any day. This means, with a setup tailored for the task at hand, content will be like a walk at the beach. However, if I equip what I want to play at that time without much consideration on the objective, things could be difficult.

 

 

Edited March 20, 2016 by Currilicious

[phoenix1992]

While it is true that Trinity can be... meta as hell, beyond Raids, I am not seeing her that much. The game is too flexible and allows various types of plays, that denounce the actual need for "placeholder" frame.

1. Crowd control
2. Energy provider
3. Defence
4. Undetectability
5. AOE damage
6. Healer
   
   --> Trinity-dominated roles in bold.  She's also one of the best at defence.  AOE damage is low on the list because of weapons like Tonkor and Sonicor.
    
7. Single target damage
8. Damage buffing 
9. Farming
10. Speed boost

Sorry for the butchered "quote", please bear with me.

1. Crowd Control - if we take that CC is restricting, relocating and flat out stopping enemies - I can't think of any frame that lacks any CC.
2. Please. While EV is the "best of best" when it comes down to supplying energy, we have other means of doing so. Zenurik and Gear are the two strongest competitors, syndy weapons right after them. 
3. Arguable. I see people wanting Trinity, so they can spam abilities, but all frames in the current power curve can defend.  Greedy pull mag was far cry from trinity, but was demanded as hell at one point.
4. What? How can she do that? We have couple of means to be invisible
a) Arcane
b) Companions
c) Shadowstep
d) Be a ninja
And a ton of ways to be undetectable. Even Ember can be undetectable - they can't see you if they are busy dying. Unless you mean - she is the battery for Loki. 
40 seconds invisibility Loki laughs and this idea.
6. Focus, Gear, Mods. Yes, Trinity provides "99% bless". But do you need that, or do you want that? This is game mechanic abuse, and I would like to see it gone soon.
9. Trinity may wave her lobster tail all she wants but the king of Farming is Necros. Oh you meant mission farming - most missions come and go with modifiers that benefit various frames. There is no single king in them.
10. Say what?!


In the end, the game provides alternatives. All the time. Dominating only comes from her side, when she is with good synergy. But tell you what : Playing Trinity is boring as hell. In my premade teams (excluding the damned Raids), I am never punishing anyone to play her.  In a game full of space ninjas, that can do feats of power, Trinity is like an nagging League of Legend champion.