Hyekka is just ridiculous.

[Xekrin]

11 hours ago, letir said:

So, psycho killers on steroids, flamethrower troopers and elite heavy infantry with rocket launchers supposed to be fragile im comprassion with Old Cat Lady? Professional soldiers and elite anti-tenno assasins should be less deadlier than cats?

Sort of, yeah.  Perhaps not the cat lady, but considering an infested charger of eris can rip pretty much any frame to shreds in seconds if no defense is taken, then the thing that EATS that charger should be pretty damned deadly, no?  Considering, however, that they genetically modified them, they behave on a different scale than feral ones, but in a nutshell yeah. why not?

Maybe on a purely numbers point of view, in terms of balance, they may need a lower damage output, better AI, more obvious attacks (we play ninjas, some things just need translated for us, so noticing a cat is about to pounce needs to be obvious to us as players in terms of visual cues a ninja would notice even if a normal person wouldnt) and so on, and considering all the threads maybe DE will even agree eventually.  

I have no qualms about nerfing the hyekka, if that is what DE wants to do.  I'm not defending that at all.  I'm defending the fact that they are slim, small slightly furry felines being a reason people think they should not be deadly, or not be deadly to us as warframes.   They are not difficult to kill, shoot them, stab them, blow them up.  They will die.  But don't stand there in front of something that eats infested for breakfast and expect when it jumps on you that you can just shrug it off.

Yes their AI could use some work, yes they could announce their attacks more visually, yes we do not need another grineer using the Ignis, especially one that also throws fire bombs too.  But don't blame all those needs on things like "its a cat, why's it so hard? cats are wimps!" and "its just a crazy old cat lady why she so hard to kill?!"  because I already pointed out why that feline should be deadly and the genetically cloned thing capable of capturing and taming such a creature should be pretty dang tough.

My Suggestions to balance things out.

• Take away cat lady's ignis, she doesn't need it, she needs a weapon that would, in theory, assist her with her kavats.  Give her a whip, maybe a scoliac, because hey infested whip to train the infested-hungry cat creatures.
• Make the hyekka ai better in whatever ways people are seeing it fail at, i dunno.
• make animations coincide more visually and obvious with when its about to pounce.  Make melee blocking said pounce a thing maybe.
• lower its damage if it is deemed too high.  If a level 30 - 40 can oneshot 2k worth of shields/health then a level 100+ obviously can and it needs to scale better.

That's more or less all I have to say on this topic, after this it'll just be repeating myself.  Keep in mind, they are currently working on pet kavats and in doing so will most probably be making changes to the feral and grineer versions as well.  Until then, it really isn't that difficult to avoid and kill them, like not taking unranked frames with unranked weapons to draco and expecting to be carried and not slaughtered because the cute lil kitties ripped your butt to shreds.

[aerosoul1337]

On 2016/3/30 at 2:47 PM, Xekrin said:

My Suggestions to balance things out.

• Take away cat lady's ignis, she doesn't need it, she needs a weapon that would, in theory, assist her with her kavats.  Give her a whip, maybe a scoliac, because hey infested whip to train the infested-hungry cat creatures.
• Make the hyekka ai better in whatever ways people are seeing it fail at, i dunno.
• make animations coincide more visually and obvious with when its about to pounce.  Make melee blocking said pounce a thing maybe.
• lower its damage if it is deemed too high.  If a level 30 - 40 can oneshot 2k worth of shields/health then a level 100+ obviously can and it needs to scale better.

 

1.Reduce dyekka master's health and armor. Units with high ferrite armor and superior health are out of control.

Now I am running corrosive weapon against grineer, corpus (for Bursa/Oxium Osprey), infested and corrupted, yes! ALL factions.

2.Reduce dyekka's damage and health. Give dyekka special ability such as detecting cloak, or give them back stab ability. Anything new instead of direct damage/health increment.

3.Fix dyekka's multi-shot.

4.Redesign dyekka's outlook... it is just a bit low.

Edited April 12, 2016 by aerosoul1337

[chuckdm]

On 3/21/2016 at 7:19 PM, Rambit23Z said:

They did a lot of damage but not one-shot-tanks damage. And they had a longer windup animation.

This right here is the thing.  I think they just do too much damage, period.  But every time I say something, people tell me they're no worse than flameblades/powerfists/etc.

The difference is (damage aside) I can AVOID ALL OF THOSE.  Hyekkas are like heat seeking nuclear cruise missles of doom.  Nothing can shake them, nothing can dodge them, and nothing can survive a single hit from them.

If I could do any of the above, I would be unhappy about the damage, but I would keep my mouth shut and not complain.  The fact that I can't avoid them OR survive them EITHER ONE is why I started this post and why I am so glad OP posted a video of this.

Now imagine he's on Draco, surrounded by 20 enemies who are all shooting him, desperately trying to recapture a tower, and FOUR Hyekkas all attack at once.  I mean, as bad as this is in the simulacrum, it's WAY, WAY worse in actual gameplay.

[aerosoul1337]

<3

[Venomzz0]

So I went ahead and made a video testing out the damage values that hyekkas deal using Rhinos Iron Skin counter in its invulnerability phase, and I found that hyekkas are incredibly broken, not only in a damage sense, but animation and hit registration as well. I went ahead and used a level 50 hyekka as a baseline (I also did one unrecorded test with a level 85 where the pounce did 8k+ damage!!!)

To pretty much sum up the video, the first pounce test I did, the hyekka did a total of 4,640 damage in one pounce. Second pounce it did 3,770 damage, and for the third it did 3,480 damage. This proves that the amount of damage the Hyekka deals in a single pounce animation is very inconsistent, because it hits a multitude of times in a single pounce. This is further proven by the fact that you cannot channeled parry a pounce! It simply hits too many times for you to block, on top of doing so much damage it drains all your energy. I then did a comparison with a level 50 Ballista, which did a paltry 500 damage a shot to my Iron Skin.

 

TL;DR Hyekkas hit so many times in one swipe they do upwards of 3K+ damage that you can't even block.

[Tritanya]

I'd be very interested to see some post-18.8.1 data on this, and compare how well the hotfix has fixed the issues at hand.  Numbers don't lie, after all.

[Djego27]

17 hours ago, Tritanya said:

I'd be very interested to see some post-18.8.1 data on this, and compare how well the hotfix has fixed the issues at hand.  Numbers don't lie, after all.

The hot fix did only change the masters.

The hyekkas still managed to one hit my 5k EHP kubrow in a sorti today so nothing really changed. Also got one hit by them once with nova, but then again the same stuff will even happen to my nova on helene saturn against L15 hyekkas.

[Prof_Blocks_007]

This is a video I took of a level 1 Hyekka attacking Trinity while Link is up. I have edited it to play at 50% speed. They definitely hit multiple times per attack.

Interestingly, Drahk deal the same damage per hit as Hyekkas (Not shown in this video).

 

[aerosoul1337]

19 hours ago, Tritanya said:

I'd be very interested to see some post-18.8.1 data on this, and compare how well the hotfix has fixed the issues at hand.  Numbers don't lie, after all.

Those video are U18.8.1 (both Rhino videos).

Epic block lol.

[BlackCoMerc]

It has been demonstrated that these enemies are bugged, and that the bug introduces ludicrous amounts of unavoidable damage. 

DE needs to hotfix these enemies off of the spawn tables for now. Then test them thoroughly after a correction of damage and animations.

[DirtyBerd]

Thanks so much for not nerfing the Hyekka DE. Most of us enjoy a little challenge in this game. It really doesn't matter how much you nerf the enemy because there will always be those few players that will never be satisfied, they will look for the most trivial things and amplify them way out of proportion because they lack basic skills or the drive to at least get better equipment.

[BlackCoMerc]

Dirtytroll is back.

The enemies are BUGGED derty. You do realize that their gross amounts of damage cone from a bug with their hitting too many times, right?

Wait. Of course you don't. Bring as you are an immortal gaming God of such immense skill, you don't suffer the shortcomings of mere mortals. I forgot.

Now, having had your gaming ego stroked, please, go away. Grown ups are talking.

[DirtyBerd]

23 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Dirtytroll is back.

The enemies are BUGGED derty. You do realize that their gross amounts of damage cone from a bug with their hitting too many times, right?

Wait. Of course you don't. Bring as you are an immortal gaming God of such immense skill, you don't suffer the shortcomings of mere mortals. I forgot.

Now, having had your gaming ego stroked, please, go away. Grown ups are talking.

Everything's bugged to you, either that or it's OP and needs to be nerfed. I've never claimed once that I'm some leet all powerfull warframe god like you seem to want to claim in any reply to me. If anything, I'm an average player. It's not that I'm that good, I think it's more like, you're just that bad.

[BlackCoMerc]

24 minutes ago, DirtyBerd said:

Everything's bugged to you, either that or it's OP and needs to be nerfed. I've never claimed once that I'm some leet all powerfull warframe god like you seem to want to claim in any reply to me. If anything, I'm an average player. It's not that I'm that good, I think it's more like, you're just that bad.

This despite video evidence that these enemies "hit" several times in a single attack. It's a bug.

But then, this isn't the first time you've ignored visual evidence. How bout them grapple hooks, huh.

[DirtyBerd]

10 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

This despite video evidence that these enemies "hit" several times in a single attack. It's a bug.

But then, this isn't the first time you've ignored visual evidence. How bout them grapple hooks, huh.

Everything that makes the game challenging to you is labeled a bug or OP, not surprising. The video shows multiple hits, yeah, so? Did you ever think that maybe they were designed that way? Grapple hooks? without comments from the devs, no one knows what's going on with them. It's all speculation.

[Heniker]

Another thing I observed is that their hits and animation aren't matched. There isn't really a specific point of time in their animation when damage takes place.

Hyekkas appear to have either one long continuous damage instance with insanely fast damage ticks, or multiple, rapid fire damage instances as soon as their attack animations start all the way till it ends. I have noticed this by slowing a Hyekka down using Nova, and just walk right into them and magically get downed. Essentially, there is no 'danger has passed' moment for Hyekkas.

Grineer Scorpion for comparison, damages you mid swing, when the blade actually strikes. Not before when she raises the blade, and not at the end of the swing when the blade is all the way down.

Probably needs further testing, my connection was smooth when that happened, but I wasn't the host, so lag/network issues could still have played a part in this.

[Tritanya]

4 hours ago, aerosoul1337 said:

Those video are U18.8.1 (both Rhino videos).

My mistake - based on the posting time of the videos and my guess at how long it took to create and post them, I thought it was pre-patch.

33 minutes ago, Heniker said:

Another thing I observed is that their hits and animation aren't matched. There isn't really a specific point of time in their animation when damage takes place.

Hyekkas appear to have either one long continuous damage instance with insanely fast damage ticks, or multiple, rapid fire damage instances as soon as their attack animations start all the way till it ends. I have noticed this by slowing a Hyekka down using Nova, and just walk right into them and magically get downed. Essentially, there is no 'danger has passed' moment for Hyekkas.

Grineer Scorpion for comparison, damages you mid swing, when the blade actually strikes. Not before when she raises the blade, and not at the end of the swing when the blade is all the way down.

Probably needs further testing, my connection was smooth when that happened, but I wasn't the host, so lag/network issues could still have played a part in this.

See, this is the kind of thing I like - not random insults or invective thrown at the devs or other players (as elsewhere ITT and others), but legit hard data (previous videos included, of course).  Research like this that exposes the issues, and offers comparison to what the expected/current/'control' state is elsewhere, is pleasant to see as opposed to the usual anecdotal evidence that tends to populate forums (admittedly, some topics don't need much more than that - but this appears to).

Thank you all for your efforts; this has been a very enlightening thread, and a nice break from the usual gripefest.  Mostly.  Here's hoping the devs see this and shed some light on the subject.

[Heniker]

I have just done further testing in the Simulacrum

Turns out for their pounce attack, there's literally zero preparatory animation, the only cue you get is a growl. Damage starts IMMEDIATELY after that growl, even though it haven't actually jumped to pounce, and continues all the way through until the end, including the landing part of the pounce. This explains why I can get 'magically' downed by just bumping into a Hyekka from the front, the start of the pounce is still instantaneous despite being slowed 75%.

For the damage time / instance, I can't give an exact time frame as I slowed the Hyekka, but a rough estimate is that damage stops about 0.5 - 1 second after the landing. I have received damage walking into the Hyekka immediately after it lands (all 4 feet on the ground). Basically it stops when they resume normal behaviour i.e. running, chilling, or whatever.

As for hitbox, no idea what the actual size is, but the pounce targets everything in front of / in the path of the Hyekka, and can hit you if you happen to just pass by this 'path' half-way through the animation.

57 minutes ago, Tritanya said:

videos included

I am an absolute caveman when it comes to recording in-game. If you could point me to a freeware that is (hopefully) easy to use, I can try to get some videos of this experiment or better still - you can do it for me! This whole test is easy to replicate using a Nova.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Heniker
Clarification

[----Dante----]

tbh i wouldnt mind enemy that can 1 shot you at melee range but for Gods Sake

LET THAT ENEMY LOOK LIKE HE CAN 1 SHOT YOU, NOT A FREAKIN SMALL CAT -_-

 

Edited April 9, 2016 by Dante123pl

[Venomzz0]

2 hours ago, Heniker said:

I have just done further testing in the Simulacrum

Turns out for their pounce attack, there's literally zero preparatory animation, the only cue you get is a growl. Damage starts IMMEDIATELY after that growl, even though it haven't actually jumped to pounce, and continues all the way through until the end, including the landing part of the pounce. This explains why I can get 'magically' downed by just bumping into a Hyekka from the front, the start of the pounce is still instantaneous despite being slowed 75%.

For the damage time / instance, I can't give an exact time frame as I slowed the Hyekka, but a rough estimate is that damage stops about 0.5 - 1 second after the landing. I have received damage walking into the Hyekka immediately after it lands (all 4 feet on the ground). Basically it stops when they resume normal behaviour i.e. running, chilling, or whatever.

As for hitbox, no idea what the actual size is, but the pounce targets everything in front of / in the path of the Hyekka, and can hit you if you happen to just pass by this 'path' half-way through the animation.

I am an absolute caveman when it comes to recording in-game. If you could point me to a freeware that is (hopefully) easy to use, I can try to get some videos of this experiment or better still - you can do it for me! This whole test is easy to replicate using a Nova.

If you have a NVIDIA gpu, you can use shadowplay, which is completely free. if not you can also use a program called OBS, or Open Broadcaster Software, which is also free

Edited April 9, 2016 by Venomzz0

[kineticharvest]

I have been wondering why on earth they did so much damage as well, so I decided to test on my own with a lv30 Hyekka against various warframes.

The tl;dr is, they did more damage to my Rhino (577 armor) than my Inaros (420 armor). They do more damage to Rhino with Iron Skin on than without.

So something is really weird with how they do damage. I don't know what or why, but they really, really hate Rhino...

[aerosoul1337]

13 hours ago, loliwarmech said:

I have been wondering why on earth they did so much damage as well, so I decided to test on my own with a lv30 Hyekka against various warframes.

The tl;dr is, they did more damage to my Rhino (577 armor) than my Inaros (420 armor). They do more damage to Rhino with Iron Skin on than without.

So something is really weird with how they do damage. I don't know what or why, but they really, really hate Rhino...

Because of multiple hits, and it's random.

Even normal attack can hit more than 4 times sometimes.

[aerosoul1337]

I want to declare again, I post this NOT because I can't handle hyekkas.

But I care about the setting, lore, balance and everything about warframe.

And hyekka's design doesn't make sense and should be checked or redesigned again.

For example, give new enemy a special ability such as detecting cloak instead of damage and health increment.

 

Edited April 14, 2016 by aerosoul1337

[aerosoul1337]

On 2016/4/9 at 10:25 PM, Prof_Blocks_007 said:

This is a video I took of a level 1 Hyekka attacking Trinity while Link is up. I have edited it to play at 50% speed. They definitely hit multiple times per attack.

Interestingly, Drahk deal the same damage per hit as Hyekkas (Not shown in this video).

This is simply because the damage reflected by trinity's link has its percentage cap.

You reflected 25 damage doesn't mean the damage source is 100.

Using iron skin's damage absorption (during its invulnerable duration) is a better way to check enemies' damage output.

Edited April 12, 2016 by aerosoul1337
typo

[Xekrin]

1 hour ago, aerosoul1337 said:

For example, give new enemy a special ability such as detecting cloak instead of damage and health increment.

Weren't they originally intended to be able to see through invisibility?  What ever happened to that?

Pretty sure this was mentioned once or twice but I figured I'd reiterate considering how alive this topic still is.  Kavat companions are coming soon and undoubtedly a few changes along with it.  I'm just patiently waiting to see.