Why do nullifiers still exist?

[Tar_Spit_Fire]

8 minutes ago, magusat999 said:

Who is protecting it? The majority of the posts - including my wall of text is supporting you. I for one, completely agree and a lot of us do here.

yea i know... but seems like quite a lot of player saying "its fine, just slide poison melee inside and it will die immediately/bring a high ROF weapon inside".... this will prove problematic when the corpus trials comes out trust me. When the damage and the health of the enemies scales into an unforgiving state that it will kills you literally in 1-2 shots, the players will have to rely on their abilities to survive and thats when the nullies comes out and shat on your face. I am expecting lots of complaint when the corpus nightmare trials full of those enemies and bursas comes out.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Murasakiiro_no_Yugure
Typo

[Racter]

9 hours ago, Phatose said:

Seems more likely they remove nullifiers - *after* the abilites that allow you to fight level 150 enemies without being dead constantly are balanced down.

You're looking at it wrong. DE doesn't care at all about level 150 enemies, none of the commonly used effective ways to kill them are ever really changed, and they certainly don't balance around this at all. Nullifiers literally only exist to stop us from AFK farming low level trash mobs, and despite the fact that they nerfed most of the ways and reasons to do this, this BS enemy remains.

If you were at war against literal magic space ninjas, and suddenly discovered a way to block their magic completely, you would put that tech everywhere. I'm not even talking about units, I'm talking about ships, buildings, hell even satellites. The Grineer would have stolen and replicated the tech by now, and would have done the same. For that matter, if it was even possible (from an in game universe standpoint), the Orokin would have figured it out and done it. They make zero sense from a lore standpoint, they are absolutely terrible from a game play standpoint and they should have been removed a long time ago. Certainly shouldn't be stuck with multiple variants of anti-fun.

 

It might have been an OK mechanic for Stalker/Manics/Bursas, but for a commonly spawned enemy it's very unenjoyable.

[Jangkrik]

The only thing that I don't understand is why DE won't remove the damage/hit cap on nullifier bubbles.

[(PSN)Crimson_Judgment]

9 hours ago, (PS4)Lord_Gremlin said:

Well designed and balanced nullifier is grineer nullifier drone that spawn only in nightmare LoR. Corpus nullifier needs redesign. It's a hard counter anti-sniper and anti-bow bow unit. That unit shouldn't exist.

And Corpus nullifiers don't prevent power spam. People just spray them witb bullet hose occasionally. 

I agree and If i Recall they block CC and AoE effects not stuff like Fireball Etc you Can shoot at enemies inside

And they aren't armed with a 1 shot kill Sniper rifle

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Crimson_Judgment said:

I agree and If i Recall they block CC and AoE effects not stuff like Fireball Etc you Can shoot at enemies inside

And they aren't armed with a 1 shot kill Sniper rifle

A unit with one shot kill sniper rifle is already terrible design. It's semi acceptable if you can countersnipe it first. Except nullifiers cannot be countersniped.

[Maicael]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)Lord_Gremlin said:

A unit with one shot kill sniper rifle is already terrible design. It's semi acceptable if you can countersnipe it first. Except nullifiers cannot be countersniped.

That's kind of the whole idea behind using a sniper rifle...

Could always take sniper rifles from Nullifiers and give them to units that use camouflage/invisibility and wall clinging to be in a sniper roost-type location in a tile. That could be interesting.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Maicael

[Stratego89]

5 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

True. Instead it is: "Fk, i got no way to win against this menace, RETREAT!". They block EVERY ability. AoE weapon completely pointless. Not to mention high fire rate continuous weapons like ignis and amprex, just wasting ammo. Slow hitting weapons no chance. Melee too risky. Only bullethoses do the job fast and safe enough. And don't get me started about the almost non existent bubble cooldown...

Nullifiers are easy. If you're retreating when you see them you should change your strategy.

High fire rate continuous weapons aren't a waste of ammo. Their bubble works so that for every "shot" done to them- there is a minimum amount of damage you can do. if your weapon's damage is lower than that, it is raised up. Continuous weapons of any kind absolutely melt nullifier bubbles.

Slow hitting weapons might not work well- but that's why you have a convenient secondary weapon to help melt the bubbles- or a high damage melee to run in and kill them with- dodging the bubble as something you need to destroy altogether. Melee is only risky if you run into the unfortunate situation of the nullifier being buffed by an ancient (this should not happen imo. If they nullify powers, ancient protection should be included).

So earlier you said "high fire rate continuous weapons just waste ammo" and yet now you're saying only bullet hoses do the job? You're contradicting your own statements. AoE is actually quite good against the bubbles. I am pretty sure they patched the bug where you could hit nullifiers directly with them- but AoE weapons can hit other enemies while also hitting the bubble, meaning that ammo isn't going to waste being used for the sole purpose of shrinking the bubble.

Non-existent cooldown? 5 whole seconds is non-existent? How?

[RagingGrizzly]

20 minutes ago, Stratego89 said:

 

So earlier you said "high fire rate continuous weapons just waste ammo" and yet now you're saying only bullet hoses do the job? You're contradicting your own statements. AoE is actually quite good against the bubbles. I am pretty sure they patched the bug where you could hit nullifiers directly with them- but AoE weapons can hit other enemies while also hitting the bubble, meaning that ammo isn't going to waste being used for the sole purpose of shrinking the bubble.

 

Doesn't seem like he's contradicting himself. Basically any high ROF continuous weapons are  when it comes to nully bubbles.

Edited March 26, 2016 by PUR3K1LL3R

[IceColdHawk]

2 minutes ago, Stratego89 said:

Nullifiers are easy. If you're retreating when you see them you should change your strategy.

And this is where the problem comes in. You can't. He walks into you, dispells all your stuff while blocking all your stuff. And melee is too risky. Imagine a bursa or a corpus tech staying in their bubble. I'm not talking about lvl 30, they are  , but rather i'm talking about high level enemies that ain't get oneshot by your melee.

4 minutes ago, Stratego89 said:

So earlier you said "high fire rate continuous weapons just waste ammo" and yet now you're saying only bullet hoses do the job? You're contradicting your own statements. AoE is actually quite good against the bubbles. I am pretty sure they patched the bug where you could hit nullifiers directly with them- but AoE weapons can hit other enemies while also hitting the bubble, meaning that ammo isn't going to waste being used for the sole purpose of shrinking the bubble.

I know how bubbles work. But, ever tryed using ignis against him? This is what i mean with continuous weapons sucking compared to bullethose weapons (soma, boltor). With soma you spray 15 bullets in and you're done. Try that with an ignis.

7 minutes ago, Stratego89 said:

Non-existent cooldown? 5 whole seconds is non-existent? How?

Feels like 3 seconds. Whatever, still too low. Imo the shield shouldn't recharge at all if anything.

Thing is, nullifiers were meant to nullify wf powers. Instead they are gods that nullify EVERYTHING. Abilities as also weapons. Hell, not even AoE passes through their shield. It should. It also does against frost. And i don't know how an electric field in shape of a bubble blocks bullets but that's just me. Nullifier can sit between 3 atom bombs and they go boom. What happens? His bubble shrinks a bit, and goes back to it's former state after a few seconds. Awesome. Now when looking at those grineer drones or combas, those are actually balanced units. Combas don't block everything, specific units block specific abilities. And weapons WORK against them. This is good. Nullifier is not good. Those are BROKEN!

 

[torint_man]

Actual unpopular opinion here, I think nullifiers are a good enemy to have, simply because if they did not exist, the factions to which they exist would be much more open to trivialization. The powerful corpus units are bursas(tank units that serve their intended purpose well since their nerf), Techs(high damage), modular corpus(nullification that exchanges the shield for more health, counterable by shooting off their helmets), and finally nullifiers.

Nullifiers are the only enemy of these powerful units that can actually block the affect of abilities. As far as I can tell, most people seem to be fine with a unit that can block the effects of their abilities. The salt about them seems to derive from the fact that they block guns too, and block them by number of shots. Personally, I think they should block guns, otherwise they'd be insta killed, and should block by number of shots,(If it blocked the same way arctic eximi block, either it would be destroyed instantly if the health of the shield didn't scale, or become nightmarish in higher levels if it did scale) and the only changes that I can think of to make them better designed is to allow snipers to kill them through their shields, and to increase the time it takes to get their shield back up after its destroyed. Other than that, any other change that I've heard talked about would make them unable to fulfill their intended purpose, units that prevent abilities from completely dominating everything. 

[torint_man]

24 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

And this is where the problem comes in. You can't. He walks into you, dispells all your stuff while blocking all your stuff. And melee is too risky. Imagine a bursa or a corpus tech staying in their bubble. I'm not talking about lvl 30, they are  , but rather i'm talking about high level enemies that ain't get oneshot by your melee.

Nullifiers rarely walk right into you because they have the same AI as sniper crewman, which is to walk slowly when tenno are in line of sight. The only time I've seen them charge headlong into battle is during interception missions, which can be blamed on their eagerness to get to the consoles, or when they don't have line of sight. Even if a nullifier happens to encroach on your position, unless you've literally backed yourself into a corner, you can always bullet jump and roll away from them. If he walked into you because he took you by surprise, that's your fault, due to the fact that they are the most telegraphed enemy I've ever seen in a game.

[Maicael]

41 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

And this is where the problem comes in. You can't. He walks into you, dispells all your stuff while blocking all your stuff. And melee is too risky. Imagine a bursa or a corpus tech staying in their bubble. I'm not talking about lvl 30, they are  , but rather i'm talking about high level enemies that ain't get oneshot by your melee.

I know how bubbles work. But, ever tryed using ignis against him? This is what i mean with continuous weapons sucking compared to bullethose weapons (soma, boltor). With soma you spray 15 bullets in and you're done. Try that with an ignis.

Feels like 3 seconds. Whatever, still too low. Imo the shield shouldn't recharge at all if anything.

Thing is, nullifiers were meant to nullify wf powers. Instead they are gods that nullify EVERYTHING. Abilities as also weapons. Hell, not even AoE passes through their shield. It should. It also does against frost. And i don't know how an electric field in shape of a bubble blocks bullets but that's just me. Nullifier can sit between 3 atom bombs and they go boom. What happens? His bubble shrinks a bit, and goes back to it's former state after a few seconds. Awesome. Now when looking at those grineer drones or combas, those are actually balanced units. Combas don't block everything, specific units block specific abilities. And weapons WORK against them. This is good. Nullifier is not good. Those are BROKEN!

 

I find the Combas/Scrambus to be more annoying than Nullifiers. Unless you get a clear look at its helmet or name AND have all 4 types memorized, then you never know which powers are going to become unavailable, on top of which it doesn't have the easily noticeable AoE in which you're powers are going to be nullified. I find their weapons to be much more difficult than Nullifier's pretty slow sniper as well.

At least with a Nullifier you can see it coming from the next room from shield clipping through wall or 100m away because of its size, you know that your powers are going to be nullified, and just like every other enemy in Warframe they can be trivialized with the right setup.
(An hour into T4 Survival I like using Ivara on a zipline + Prowl + Explosive Glaive build; Out of reach of nullifier bubbles, an attack capable of piercing their bubble, an exploding AoE that lands headshots, and additional headshot damage from Prowl. Kills them and any trash mobs with them, an extra shot or two takes out Bombards and Heavy Gunners. My squad was wondering why so few enemies were appearing at their camping spot.)

Edited March 26, 2016 by Maicael

[IceColdHawk]

14 minutes ago, torint_man said:

Nullifiers rarely walk right into you because they have the same AI as sniper crewman, which is to walk slowly when tenno are in line of sight. The only time I've seen them charge headlong into battle is during interception missions, which can be blamed on their eagerness to get to the consoles, or when they don't have line of sight. Even if a nullifier happens to encroach on your position, unless you've literally backed yourself into a corner, you can always bullet jump and roll away from them. If he walked into you because he took you by surprise, that's your fault, due to the fact that they are the most telegraphed enemy I've ever seen in a game.

Im either forced to walk in or forced to use high RoF weapons. Since none of my abilities will help. This should clearly not be a thing. Unlike bursas, they can't get cc'd. I don't mind if nullifiers stay, but they definitely should get toned down a bit.

[magusat999]

7 minutes ago, torint_man said:

Nullifiers rarely walk right into you because they have the same AI as sniper crewman, which is to walk slowly when tenno are in line of sight. The only time I've seen them charge headlong into battle is during interception missions, which can be blamed on their eagerness to get to the consoles, or when they don't have line of sight. Even if a nullifier happens to encroach on your position, unless you've literally backed yourself into a corner, you can always bullet jump and roll away from them. If he walked into you because he took you by surprise, that's your fault, due to the fact that they are the most telegraphed enemy I've ever seen in a game.

I have had them RUN towards me, especially in the later minutes of Survival play - so this is not accurate. Also there is the "out of sight spawn", which also happens with other creatures (like a "magic charger" that follows a player everywhere they go - just out of sight, popping up in the moment of weakness to scratch his life away...). The mechanic seems to be: "Well, the player is not looking that direction, so it's okay for a Nullifier to suddenly pop up out of nowhere right behind him..." and whether or not the person deals with the Nullifier is not a matter of question here. It's whether the Nullifier adds value to the gameplay, or makes sense. It does not, especially in high level game play where you don't have to benefit of taking your sweet time dealing with one enemy. You shouldn't be forced into one specific way to deal with an enemy when you are being mobbed by 20 or 30 enemies of various types at one time. It lends itself to cheapness - like the OHK Corrupted butcher friend of the Nullifier that gets you when your spraying his bubble. It isn't as simple as a tough enemy - which is not a problem, it is cheapness attributed to "challenge" and crossing the fine line into frustration-land.

[Maicael]

23 minutes ago, magusat999 said:

You shouldn't be forced into one specific way to deal with an enemy when you are being mobbed by 20 or 30 enemies of various types at one time. It lends itself to cheapness

I'd like to focus on your statement here, which I think a significant number of people that dislike Nullifiers bring up.

Without Nullifiers, what are those "20 or 30 enemies of various types" worth for combat? You've got  Corpus with automatic rifles,beam rifles, shotguns, Bursas w/ rocket launchers, but if they're all CC'd they can't do anything. They might as well be holographic targets. You're calling it a cheap tactic because they're immune to and protect allies from what you can use to make all other enemies effectively the same?

In terms of dealing with enemies a specific way we have:

1. Nullifiers
2. Bursas(somewhat by weakpoints in the back and being able to hack afterwards)
3. Every other enemy that can just be CC'd and blown away indiscriminately

Edited March 26, 2016 by Maicael

[Stratego89]

1 hour ago, IceColdHawk said:

And this is where the problem comes in. You can't. He walks into you, dispells all your stuff while blocking all your stuff. And melee is too risky. Imagine a bursa or a corpus tech staying in their bubble. I'm not talking about lvl 30, they are  , but rather i'm talking about high level enemies that ain't get oneshot by your melee.

I know how bubbles work. But, ever tryed using ignis against him? This is what i mean with continuous weapons sucking compared to bullethose weapons (soma, boltor). With soma you spray 15 bullets in and you're done. Try that with an ignis.

Feels like 3 seconds. Whatever, still too low. Imo the shield shouldn't recharge at all if anything.

Thing is, nullifiers were meant to nullify wf powers. Instead they are gods that nullify EVERYTHING. Abilities as also weapons. Hell, not even AoE passes through their shield. It should. It also does against frost. And i don't know how an electric field in shape of a bubble blocks bullets but that's just me. Nullifier can sit between 3 atom bombs and they go boom. What happens? His bubble shrinks a bit, and goes back to it's former state after a few seconds. Awesome. Now when looking at those grineer drones or combas, those are actually balanced units. Combas don't block everything, specific units block specific abilities. And weapons WORK against them. This is good. Nullifier is not good. Those are BROKEN!

 

Again, I've had no issues with even level 60+ nullifiers, even with something under it's bubbles (again, save for healers who are protecting them with their aura- that's not synergy between enemies that's just straight broken- BUT I digress). Try doing something different, I don't know how you're trying to handle them when you go in with melee. I find a quick slide attack through or a melee slam attack to knock down everyone else in the bubble to be the best bet.

I have used ignis against them- and it works fine for me.

The shield shouldn't even be a thing to take down. I'm along with other players in the thinking that nullifiers should work purely as an AoE protection bubble against power spam, but they should be able to be shot. The bubble should not stop bullets- we have the arctic eximus units for that. That being said, it's still not that bad. perhaps if the bubble allowed punchthrough to get through after it was half-way shrunken it'd help for lower fire rate weapons that you probably have punchthrough on anyways.

I also think that they should adapt an idea I saw posted elsewhere on forums- basically 'rather than deactivating buffs when you enter the bubble, it either drains energy faster (toggle) or counts down faster (time based abilities) and they completely block out eg shock as they currently do. We have the much more balanced in spawn ratio enemies known as combas for complete ability shutdown in an area- but they are balanced by the fact that they have no bubble protecting them.

 

Yes they could use changes- but nullifiers are not the insanely impossible to handle enemy everyone makes them out to be. They're not that hard- you just have to be willing to change up how you play a bit to adapt to them. That's the entire point of their existence.

 

[magusat999]

17 minutes ago, Maicael said:

I'd like to focus on your statement here, which I think a significant number of people that dislike Nullifiers bring up.

Without Nullifiers, what are those "20 or 30 enemies of various types" worth for combat? You've got  Corpus with automatic rifles,beam rifles, shotguns, Bursas w/ rocket launchers, but if they're all CC'd they can't do anything. They might as well be holographic targets. You're calling it a cheap tactic because they're immune to and protect allies from what you can use to make all other enemies effectively the same?

In terms of dealing with enemies a specific way we have:

1. Nullifiers
2. Bursas(somewhat by weakpoints in the back and being able to hack afterwards)
3. Every other enemy that can just be CC'd and blown away indiscriminately

Exactly my point. When you are mobbed by continuous streams of enemies, the response SHOULD be to CC them. That is why CC Warframes were created - to CC... At level 100+ (the OP specified his topic is about 100+ enemies, not easy to deal with level 60 enemies like the poster a couple of posts below you uses as an example) - EVERY ENEMY is already tough to take down - it is ludicrous to have to concentrate fire on one enemy without the benefit of  inhibiting it. Also, at that level you aren't dealing with one Nullifier, as some people are speaking in their examples - you are dealing with continuous hordes of them swarming in. So it is not as simple as you suggest and we are not talking about Street Fighter where you fight one enemy at a time. As you are concentrating fire on the Nullifier, there are other enemies mobbing you. As the level rises it gets more critical that you deal with the mobs in a quick and efficient way. That is what abilities, which for the life of me I never can figure out why someone would play Warframe and NOT want to use them, are for. There are other games that cater to just regular people with guns - like Call of Duty. We are one against many, so CC IS part of the game (and fun) and people need to get over it or play something else. Finally, "dealing with a specific enemy" IS is the problem. We shouldn't have to take so much time for a specific, regular enemy. If it was a boss or a mini-boss, well yes. But these are regular spawns who's only function seems to spoil all the fun of playing Warframe.

Edited March 26, 2016 by magusat999

[Maicael]

18 minutes ago, Murasakiiro_no_Yugure said:

We have that already, its called Artic Eximus, and i can't really say that thing in the picture is related to nullifiers since magic isn't really a real thing in that time and i don't think it will block magic too in that cases... 

Arctic Eximus aren't immune to being cheaply CC'd by powers and are basically just as easy to kill as every other trash-type enemy.

Magic is just science that someone else doesn't understand yet. You make advances in technology as time goes on, as weapons get more offensive power you work on protection with more defensive power. Those shields were used to protect against volleys of arrows, and were capable of it. Arrows were upgraded to bullets, shields were upgraded to body armor and tanks. Same scenario in Warframe. Bullets get upgraded to lasers and Void Powers, body armor gets upgraded to Proto-shields.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Maicael

[magusat999]

3 minutes ago, Maicael said:

Arctic Eximus aren't immune to being cheaply CC'd by powers and are basically just as easy to kill as every other trash-type enemy.

snip!

Depends on the level of the player. Remember the whole userbase is not "Got Gud" level! There are actually some players that the Arctic Eximus is NOT a trash mob; that they put value in and even need to face for one reason or another. AFor all of us, we didn't just start Warframe and at hour 1 hit up T4 Survival missions. Making statements like "trash mobs" is very subjective. A player with 50 hours might not think so, and rightfully so. So if that enemy presents a problem to a certain level of player, guess what something like a Nullifier, Scrambus, Bursa, Leech / Energy / Venomous Eximus does? It can completely end their mission. We have to be cognizant that there are other levels of players and if they can reach the mission they should have a chance to finish it too (not including the taxied players, they are on their own there).

[enJohneering]

12 hours ago, Murasakiiro_no_Yugure said:

ever heard o' trinity and inaros pocket sand CC + Covert lethality dagger build?

Awhhh, I thought I had invented something. I have been using it for about it a week. Very powerful.

On the subject of nullies though, I would much rather see more combas and even (dare I say it) bursas that have to deal with the stupid bubbles. I mean, I usually bring a secondary just to deal with them alone (high fire rate magnetic) instead of going with a weapon I might enjoy using or that has any other purpose. I can change tactics to deal with a bursa or a comba, but nullifiers just demand a very specific weapon type or build that doesn't really benifit the game now that DE has designed other options. 

I mean, this whole thing could of course be resolved with AI scaling to enemy level instead of a pure numbers crunch or even mission types that perhaps allow the map to change based on your duration in the mission (think crumbling patches on moon survival or toxic clouds released on infested defense) but that is a much more design intensive solution that I doubt will or could be implemented any time soon. 

[Inugami8]

They will be here forever. DE wants to reduce camping and the nullifiers do that really well.

[Maicael]

1 minute ago, Inugami8 said:

They will be here forever. DE wants to reduce camping and the nullifiers do that really well.

Nah, invisible Ivara with a Glaive can take them out about as fast as they can head towards a squad's camping spot.

[Manyc]

13 hours ago, Murasakiiro_no_Yugure said:

 

Have you tried giving use to your secondary? Just like you I'm a bow user, wanting those skill shots. Then again we're playing a ninja game, ninjas work with the best tools for each task, just bring some silenced dual quick pistols, pop a burst on it, by the time it takes the bubble to disappear you have the bow ready to snipe him without him noticing you. Or if you don't go full stealth, bring a throwing sec that explodes on the first bounce, they get hit by explosions even while inside the bubble. (the later might not work on very high level).

Please don't make this a "I want to play with X arsenal forever and you have to mold yourselves to me." discussion, you're meant to adapt.

These games aren't made for a single person, they're made for masses and if they want to play they should figure out to play, not define how it should be played after it's already made. Now either find something that is actually broken or actually post ideas on how to fix what is wrong, don't just blast salt in.

[SquireAngel]

58 minutes ago, magusat999 said:

Depends on the level of the player. Remember the whole userbase is not "Got Gud" level! There are actually some players that the Arctic Eximus is NOT a trash mob; that they put value in and even need to face for one reason or another. AFor all of us, we didn't just start Warframe and at hour 1 hit up T4 Survival missions. Making statements like "trash mobs" is very subjective. A player with 50 hours might not think so, and rightfully so. So if that enemy presents a problem to a certain level of player, guess what something like a Nullifier, Scrambus, Bursa, Leech / Energy / Venomous Eximus does? It can completely end their mission. We have to be cognizant that there are other levels of players and if they can reach the mission they should have a chance to finish it too (not including the taxied players, they are on their own there).

You should know better than to challenge something far beyond your level. While there isn't a true level system to measure the tenno themselves by, you should still have an idea of where you sit, and that you're going to have difficulty with mobs of a level beyond your capacity to deal dmg against. You're saying that level divide should be removed, and that leveling mods and the like shouldn't be a barrier for newer players. Now, before you get all 'you put words in my mouth', or 'you twisted my words', Let's take a look at every other MMO that doesn't literally lock it's areas behind level gates. It's the players fault if they wander into a lvl 40 zone as a lvl 15, and get crushed by a lvl 40 trash mob. A 50 hour player shouldn't be able to clear the solar map, which is in line with the logic you're applying. A player being able to reach a mission, regardless of conclave rating (the closest we have to a level system), and being able to clear it is bad logic. WF has a leveling process, and 50 hours is much too little to gain the cores/mods that will be required to for content where Nullifiers+etc show up. While WF's leveling process is different to many other games, it's still present, and it must still be dealt with to reach higher tier content. 

[kubbi]

I really enjoyed playing againt the corpus in the old days. Tried to last as long as possible on survival. They were still challenging back then so I don't understand the addition of nullifiers. I loathe nullifiers. They are not fun or challenging to deal with. They just make the gameplay more bullsh*tier.