Blind Mirage

[Hayabusa97]

When I first saw Prism in action (T4I), my first thought was "Holy crap, that is way too strong." It also answers my question why my T4I drops were hardly worth much (because when you can get to round 8 or higher by cheesing Prism, maybe it's time for a nerf )

Edited April 3, 2016 by Hayabusa97

[-Temp0-]

1 hour ago, Hayabusa97 said:

When I first saw Prism in action (T4I), my first thought was "Holy crap, that is way too strong." It also answers my question why my T4I drops were hardly worth much (because when you can get to round 8 or higher by cheesing Prism, maybe it's time for a nerf )

That has nothing to do with it. Whole void drops stuff that hardly worth anything, especially endless missions by the definition of it - because you can get more than 1 reward here so it's watered down with cores, o cells, formas and other crap in order to make it look like you got rewards but in the same time you didn't, not really.

[Hayabusa97]

9 minutes ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

That has nothing to do with it. Whole void drops stuff that hardly worth anything, especially endless missions by the definition of it - because you can get more than 1 reward here so it's watered down with cores, o cells, formas and other crap in order to make it look like you got rewards but in the same time you didn't, not really.

Cept pretty much everything I got was a Prime Part in that one. If I recall 3 were Carrier P BPs, 2 were Paris P Upper limbs, 1 was a Fang P Handle, 1 was a Loki Prime BP, and the last one was probably a Hikou P part or a Bo P part or something.

[Magneu]

On 4/3/2016 at 10:33 PM, Suira said:

It's subjects like this that really annoy me. People *@##$ and moan about "their" game not working the way they feel it should and no matter what you say to combat their argument they just write you a story and perpetuate an argument that runs in circles.
They say that X frame or X weapon is ruining their experience because in their mind it is #1.. aka broken in their head.

I have never... EVER ended up in a game and said to myself, "F***, we have a Blind Mirage/EV Trinity/Resonance Banshee".

So yeah, whatever Magneu. You sure got it figured out. Glad we have crusaders like you looking out for the rest of us stupid players. Because your efforts will lead to a better gaming experience for all of us.

Oooh, you got me. Nice tactic of using a gif to validate your poin-wait, that's not how it works.

Ahem.

Ignoring your blatant ad hominem and sarcasm, here's why Blind Mirage is completely broken.

1. She removes the ability for enemies to attack.

Pretty simple. Enemies can't attack, there goes half of the gameplay. Guess we should ask DE if enemies attacking is a feature of the game that should be toggled at will, because apparently, that's what people want.

2. She removes the ability for other players to fully utilize their frames.

Chroma is the prime example. He needs to take damage to gain buffs. If enemies can't shoot, he can't get buffed. There goes his unique identity as a berserker-tank (not that he'd need the armor, see point #1). Upcoming Silva/Aegis augment? Useless. Absorb? Practically useless (Mirage is too busy spamming Prism to shoot). Iron Skin/Warding Halo/Snowglobe?Antimatter Drop damage absorption? Useless (although I guess with point #1 above, the need to protect oneself or deal damage (core aspects of a game) shouldn't actually be needed).

3. I'm not arguing for just myself.

This is not my game. I only use my personal experiences because, obviously, that's the only experiences I have. Your own anecdote in the quote proves my point here; people develop opinions based on their experiences (it just seems that your goal is the reward, mine is to have fun while getting there).

 I'm arguing that Blind Mirage is broken because it removes a massive part of gameplay, becomes a hindrance to anyone seeking to non-cheese (yes, sortie intercept is perfectly do-able without Mirage), and far outstrips the next runner up wide-spread CC (Chaos, Radial Disarm, etc). DE should be concerned about the wide-spread usage of Blind Mirage, because it trivializes 99% of gameplay. If enemies can't shoot, move, or do anything, why bother shooting them? They'll just despawn at the end of the round. As creators of a game, they should be concerned when players have discovered strategies/exploits that break the game so much that the way to win is to NOT play the game. 

Stating that people like me "write a story and perpetuate an argument that runs in circles" is attempting to validate your viewpoint by dismissing mine; if anyone considers that a valid argument, they need to take a quick trip to their local philosophy expert, or admit that their argument is false and fallacious. I would personally like to see somebody take my argument, develop counter-arguments, and see if they can defeat my argument. If someone can logically prove that my viewpoint is invalid, I'll gladly concede.

Too bad it'll never happen, because everyone here knows how broken Blind Mirage is compared to any other CC ability in the game, even if they want to defend their favorite cheese method.

[Suira]

15 minutes ago, Magneu said:

Oooh, you got me. Nice tactic of using a gif to validate your poin-wait, that's not how it works.

Ahem.

Ignoring your blatant ad hominem and sarcasm, here's why Blind Mirage is completely broken.

1. She removes the ability for enemies to attack.

Pretty simple. Enemies can't attack, there goes half of the gameplay. Guess we should ask DE if enemies attacking is a feature of the game that should be toggled at will, because apparently, that's what people want.

2. She removes the ability for other players to fully utilize their frames.

Chroma is the prime example. He needs to take damage to gain buffs. If enemies can't shoot, he can't get buffed. There goes his unique identity as a berserker-tank (not that he'd need the armor, see point #1). Upcoming Silva/Aegis augment? Useless. Absorb? Practically useless (Mirage is too busy spamming Prism to shoot). Iron Skin/Warding Halo/Snowglobe?Antimatter Drop damage absorption? Useless (although I guess with point #1 above, the need to protect oneself or deal damage (core aspects of a game) shouldn't actually be needed).

3. I'm not arguing for just myself.

This is not my game. I only use my personal experiences because, obviously, that's the only experiences I have. Your own anecdote in the quote proves my point here; people develop opinions based on their experiences (it just seems that your goal is the reward, mine is to have fun while getting there).

 I'm arguing that Blind Mirage is broken because it removes a massive part of gameplay, becomes a hindrance to anyone seeking to non-cheese (yes, sortie intercept is perfectly do-able without Mirage), and far outstrips the next runner up wide-spread CC (Chaos, Radial Disarm, etc). DE should be concerned about the wide-spread usage of Blind Mirage, because it trivializes 99% of gameplay. If enemies can't shoot, move, or do anything, why bother shooting them? They'll just despawn at the end of the round. As creators of a game, they should be concerned when players have discovered strategies/exploits that break the game so much that the way to win is to NOT play the game. 

Stating that people like me "write a story and perpetuate an argument that runs in circles" is attempting to validate your viewpoint by dismissing mine; if anyone considers that a valid argument, they need to take a quick trip to their local philosophy expert, or admit that their argument is false and fallacious. I would personally like to see somebody take my argument, develop counter-arguments, and see if they can defeat my argument. If someone can logically prove that my viewpoint is invalid, I'll gladly concede.

Too bad it'll never happen, because everyone here knows how broken Blind Mirage is compared to any other CC ability in the game, even if they want to defend their favorite cheese method.

Cool story bro.

On 4/3/2016 at 10:33 PM, Suira said:

People *@##$ and moan about "their" game not working the way they feel it should and no matter what you say to combat their argument they just write you a story and perpetuate an argument that runs in circles.

 

 

If there is anything broken about Mirage's ult it is her range. Which wont accomplish anything if they nerf because instead of having 1 Mirage you will just have 2 now. Basically it means 2 people have to sit the and CC spam. If they make it LOS then we can just use some of the many other CC abilities in the game that let us win. If everything is made LOS and have decreased range then we will still cheese things by having 4 excals with zenurik using RB at every point.
As for hurting frames like Chroma....
Why would you bring Chroma into anything other than a survival? He doesn't help the team in any useful manner except for picking people back up. Then again, people wouldn't be dead if they were CC'd. #soloframe

Your complaint is honestly not about Mirage, it is about the CC meta. Realize this and move on.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Suira

[Magneu]

14 minutes ago, Suira said:

Cool story bro.

 

 

If there is anything broken about Mirage's ult it is her range. Which wont accomplish anything if they nerf because instead of having 1 Mirage you will just have 2 now. Basically it means 2 people have to sit the and CC spam. If they make it LOS then we can just use some of the many other CC abilities in the game that let us win. If everything is made LOS and have decreased range then we will still cheese things by having 4 excals with zenurik using RB at every point.
As for hurting frames like Chroma....
Why would you bring Chroma into anything other than a survival? He doesn't help the team in any useful manner except for picking people back up. Then again, people wouldn't be dead if they were CC'd. #soloframe

Your complaint is honestly not about Mirage, it is about the CC meta. Realize this and move on.

Way to dismiss my entire argument. That would go far in a real debate (you know, cause real debates have two sides that actually counter-argument each other).

Chroma was just an example for interfering with other frames (he's helpful in the fact of tanking damage meant for other frames by getting in the face of enemies; I would prefer if Vex Armor had an aggro buff though. His CC is...sporadic, but still there to lockdown a location. He doesn't do half-bad as the primary damage dealer of a team, either).

Mirage needs to be toned down because, within the CC meta, she far outpaces the runner-up (whatever that may be) by a massive margin, to the point where she actually breaks the game, invalidating the need to even shoot enemies.

Yeah, I think the CC meta is silly; hopefully damage 3.0 addresses weapon favoritism, broken enemy scaling, "one shot or be one shot" tactics. Maybe that's where we can agree, that extreme CC tactics won't be "required" once the changes hit. Fingers crossed that damage 3.0 is successful in that regard.

[Suira]

5 minutes ago, Magneu said:

Way to dismiss my entire argument. That would go far in a real debate (you know, cause real debates have two sides that actually counter-argument each other).

Chroma was just an example for interfering with other frames (he's helpful in the fact of tanking damage meant for other frames by getting in the face of enemies; I would prefer if Vex Armor had an aggro buff though. His CC is...sporadic, but still there to lockdown a location. He doesn't do half-bad as the primary damage dealer of a team, either).

Mirage needs to be toned down because, within the CC meta, she far outpaces the runner-up (whatever that may be) by a massive margin, to the point where she actually breaks the game, invalidating the need to even shoot enemies.

Yeah, I think the CC meta is silly; hopefully damage 3.0 addresses weapon favoritism, broken enemy scaling, "one shot or be one shot" tactics. Maybe that's where we can agree, that extreme CC tactics won't be "required" once the changes hit. Fingers crossed that damage 3.0 is successful in that regard.

Because this is a stupid as F*** argument.
Yes, Mirage is the best CC frame in the game. No one can argue this.
The real argument is, "Does Mirage need a nerf because she is #1?"
The answer is, "Not right now, not in the current meta."
Why? "Because she lets us deal with stupid game types like trials and interception w/o having to build a CC team."

That is what it breaks down to. Arguing that she forces people to play against CC'd targets is stupid because there are a lot of other frames who can do this.
If a Chroma was to join me in a sortie and I am playing as Frost he is going to be sad because I will CC everything in sight.

Now if the game wear to change to where CC isn't as important then I wouldn't care what happens to Mirage Blind.
But are we at that point right now? "No"

ps I am not a Mirage fan boy. I have only used her for 4%. That 4% is mainly due to Mirage release pre penta nerf.
#nuke

[-Temp0-]

4 hours ago, Hayabusa97 said:

Cept pretty much everything I got was a Prime Part in that one. If I recall 3 were Carrier P BPs, 2 were Paris P Upper limbs, 1 was a Fang P Handle, 1 was a Loki Prime BP, and the last one was probably a Hikou P part or a Bo P part or something.

Sometimes it's like this. Sometimes it's 3x cores, 2 formas and so on. But overall, an ok place to farm ducats but the best part of it is that it's faster than survival but also offers several rewards for one key in the opposite to t3-4 exterminates or capture.

[fatpig84]

Face it people.

Mirage already had it coming a long time ago.
Blind Mirage was already there for a long time.
People used it in T4 interception for lulz and then promptly left her to the dust because it was sooo boring.

Then came out Raid Trials, she came into prominence but outside of the 10% of WF players who raid constantly (several times a week or daily), she again was not really touch on.

Now here come Sorties interception / Excavations, this is where she starts become seen more in the general public.
Hence the nerf reaper is going to come and it will come down hard.

[EmptyDevil]

Some have played these difficult missions while you have slept. Some like me. I remember what you did. I remember the day.
The Mirages appeared on the Orbiter, gleaming and victorious. Our mercilious and random Emperor, breathless, bathed you in today's loot. Then came the sound. Across all our forums, all at once, the impending Nerf Threads. A needed statement about the lazy Mirages. Ten solemn posts to declare a nerf was necessary. I upvoted in my lurking, with the rest of the pro-nerfers. With each post apprehension began to fill my mind. The Mirages were not stoic and silent. They were waiting. They were poised. I tried to detail a post but only a snarky comment escaped.

When the ninth post appeared a torrent of text filled the thread, loosed by Mirage keyboards. The posts, the thread, fell silent forever.

Now I hunt, counting your numbers. Watching from the community, cataloging your exploits, I am the ghost of balance. You may disagree but you are not necessary.

[Mandolin53]

Im gonna say this now, until they fix the bad scaling with enemies, anytime you think of nerfing something, take your opinion and stick it where someone actually cares, mirage is squishy enough as it is and blind is buggy anyway, scorpions dont get blinded if they grapple during the animation, nullifiers protect enemies from the blind, and the casting of blind takes forever so a casting speed mod is mandatory otherwise when you come across a level 100 bombard that isnt blind you're dead. If you want to nerf mirage, you can go and nerf inaros into the ground, excaliburs exalted blade, valkyrs hysteria, ash's bladestorm, saryn's spore and every single ability thats even useful, oh and while you're at it, nerf covert lethality just to be absolutely sure to destroy the game. There are plenty more things that are overpowered out there. So before you call nerf on every bloody thing in the game, consider everything about the game.

[Hellmaker2004]

3 minutes ago, Death_The_Kid04 said:

Im gonna say this now, until they fix the bad scaling with enemies, anytime you think of nerfing something, take your opinion and stick it where someone actually cares, mirage is squishy enough as it is and blind is buggy anyway, scorpions dont get blinded if they grapple during the animation, nullifiers protect enemies from the blind, and the casting of blind takes forever so a casting speed mod is mandatory otherwise when you come across a level 100 bombard that isnt blind you're dead. If you want to nerf mirage, you can go and nerf inaros into the ground, excaliburs exalted blade, valkyrs hysteria, ash's bladestorm, saryn's spore and every single ability thats even useful, oh and while you're at it, nerf covert lethality just to be absolutely sure to destroy the game. There are plenty more things that are overpowered out there. So before you call nerf on every bloody thing in the game, consider everything about the game.

 

The scaling works perfectly fine for 1 - 120 Level area. After that it gets borked, and Mirage is the only one of the ones you mentioned above that have such a impact.

Valkyr only offers immunity to herself and forces her to melee. Excaliber exalted blade only offers 60% Damage resistance from frontal attacks and for himself. Inaros can actually die and he have to use his ability's while being on the front line. Spore require you to stack Toxin for it to deal high damage, and although it can deal massive damage it does not ignore a game mechanic.

 

I will agree that there are a lot of stuff that they need to look at, i defend Trinity's design but her self damage "exploit" is one of them because it ignores a aspect of the game. And the problem is that If we want end game content we need to get rid of stuff than can make us ignore aspects of the game or the game will have its challenge adjusted of us having those tools and this will cause us to ignoring other Frames.

Nerfing ability's is one way of "fixing" skills, another way would be to rework the energy system and once again i can say that Trinity EV is part of that problem she is not the only issue but she is part of it. Mirage Prism would not be a issue if we had to manage our energy, but we are currently not in a position where we have to manage energy.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

On March 31, 2016 at 6:07 PM, Madrox8 said:

and we need one for this, it sounds like you have never played a match with a blind mirage build

I remember it well...3 of us in a sortie; one a mirage blind max range meta build.

The guy called both of us Trash...his build was unbelievably game-breaking.

 

 

[TheMightyBaloon]

Nooo , someone noticed and wants the mirage nerfed cuz of reasons. Well enough ridicule, it is kinda of op yes but within reasons I think. The blind mirage meta completely dominates interceptions and raids for apparent reasons but is it fair?? Kind of I guess. 

First off raids(LOR in particular since JV doesn't require you to run blind mirage): For the normal and nightmare version the only reason , besides having enemies not shoot at you, to run a blind mirage is the hijack portion. The core being at 10k life drops quite fast when you have tons of enemies shooting at it. A mirage not blinding there and having little to no other CC requires you to constantly kill incoming grineer with sub-optimal movement of the core. It is a bit trickier in nightmare but the premise is the same.

Inreceptions: Aside from corpus everything else just gets dominated, plain and simple.

 

So if blind gets completely nerfed the next best thing comes along which is nova with max slow set up,shadow bolts nyx, stomp rhino, vauban, max range CC ember and so forth.

My point here is that unless you completely rework the CC in the game there is always going to be a way to cheese missions. So if you don't like mirage's blind try an end game missions without a mirage and a trinity (of any sort bless or ev), and don't go off pick people off your friends list. Pick just a bunch of random players that are MR 12 and under and then test the waters.

[Kinjeto]

On 04/04/2016 at 4:17 PM, fatpig84 said:

Face it people.

Mirage already had it coming a long time ago.
Blind Mirage was already there for a long time.
People used it in T4 interception for lulz and then promptly left her to the dust because it was sooo boring.

Then came out Raid Trials, she came into prominence but outside of the 10% of WF players who raid constantly (several times a week or daily), she again was not really touch on.

Now here come Sorties interception / Excavations, this is where she starts become seen more in the general public.
Hence the nerf reaper is going to come and it will come down hard.

This coming from:
http://warframe-builder.com/Warframes/Builder/Mirage/t_30_040002003_4-2-5-5-4-4-6-6-5-7-3-5-8-8-5-14-7-5-46-1-5-55-0-4-411-5-10_55-10-46-6-4-9-7-9-5-8-411-8-6-11-14-9-8-14_0/en/1-0-26/38566/0

This coming you, this is utterly despicable. How low can you go fatpig84?

I quote:

Quote

So generally it is best to shoot slightly elevated so the disco ball will clear the stairs on the long cat walks. Secondly this is a DOT skill, so it is generally best let it runs it's 6 seconds as Cerberus is huge.

Ugh really.

I'd proponent to give  frames more options via augment  mods and make the way the augment effecting [an]  power entirely differrent.

I don't like nerfing I want awesome side-grading so with [the] warframes, so, you can have multiple ways of using powers and building 'that frame'.

The other thing about Mirage and blinding is there are actually two states:

1. Is where Prism is re-cast so it is a stun-lock in raids/T4I of which ever. I think this is very valid because PRISM is classified as a 4th ability and there fore an Ultimate.

2. Then there is the blind that is the duration on the prism blind that cause the enemies to just be blinded and walk around.

A lot of people don't know | notice the difference between these two states. A lot of people also question whether you should build into these states. The fact is YOU CAN!

You can build Constitution and Primed Contuinity into these or not at all. You can also build cast speed and of course, range. You could even build power strength for the prism damage. That's the awesome thing. It's all up to the end user to achieve and understand, of all things unsurprising.

THE DESIRED RESULT TO BENEFIT THE TEAM'S EFFICIENCY

Edited April 22, 2016 by Kinjeto

[ashrah]

13 minutes ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

 

The problem with that is how would that occur with most frames? Crowd control frames are not effected by hostile levels and the frames that perform hard crowd controls will disable foes completely.

 

So how would one buff damage frames so they can perform equally no matter the hostile levels? Everything they do instantly kill foes? If that is done then where does that leave frames that buff allies? Or frames that support allies defensively?

 

We would end up in a cycle where nothing matter unless we fight something that disable our ability's.

for dmg frames why not add some mod for each kill u gain 10% more power no stacks limit....

[EmptyDevil]

DE needs to apply a LoS on Prism's blind. It is painfully annoying.

[Hellmaker2004]

12 hours ago, ashrah said:

for dmg frames why not add some mod for each kill u gain 10% more power no stacks limit....

Assuming it scales similar to how hostiles scale and that is none linear otherwise a static bonus 10% would perform nothing when you reach high enough level.

And lets assume it would grant the bonus to everyone in the team and not only the one who kills a mob otherwise we would end up having a competition where the stronger grow stronger, the weak gets left even further behind and we compete with our allies.

And assuming it scales with your modded power strength and not the base, otherwise strength mods would turn out to be useless.

Even when we assume all of those things to be implemented in a fair way. Where do one go with the durability of frames?

 

All frames have different base stats, some frames are tankier and some are glass cannons. So there would have some sort of way to implement a scaling survivability for each and single frame to make the tanky frames capable to keep up with the added benefits the damage dealers and Crowd Control have.

 

And if all that is implemented, one may even ask what would be the point of having scaling foes at all if we scale with them. The scaling serves a purpose, it is supposed to simulate the growing danger of staying on a mission, our frames simply being fatigued by the constant battle, the problem is that hard crowd control ability's are not effected by this "fatigue". And although they may be "balanced" in some aspects, with the addition of mods they severely disable certain aspects of the game.

[Feallike]

Wait so your saying that people want to play the game, have challenge, and have fun using their abilities? WHAT A DUMB IDEA! OMG LET ME PLAY THE GAME THE WAY I WANT! I HATE RULES I DON'T WANT TO ACTUAL TRY! I want to just get EVERYTHING my first run!!!!!!! You can't take that away from me I am the center of the universe and you are all dogs! I hate you all! You are all nerf mongers!

 

Mirage is 100% going to receive LOS before U19. It is unfair for her blind to not have it compared to Excalibur. Also unlike Radial Blind she has damage on the ultimate so with LOS it is fair. That is going to happen.

 

Also the fact that people have to argue over this is sad. Blind Mirage is OBVIOUSLY game breaking that isn't even a question. The only people who disagree with this are children who want to play nuke simulator.

 

EDIT: O wait I have a great idea! Why not make all Greneer oneshot us and have infinite HP so that all frames are completely fair! Or lets remove enemies alltogether and just have a straight path to the end that you run 50000x to get a reward! Because I want to sit down get drunk and play the game blindfolded because my self esteem is so low that losing to a videogame makes me feel bad about myself!

 

#Don'tletchildrenplayMratedgames

Edited April 23, 2016 by Feallike

[DarkRuler2500]

On 1.4.2016 at 3:25 AM, LittleArachnid said:

I can't speak for every single player but I'd rather a rework to make that frame's abilities synergise well and work together. Example, the Mag rework will more than likely make her more than just the 'corpus killer' frame. I've been enjoying playing her with the Orbit skin set and a rework will make her all the more better. Trinity for another example is a healing paragon and energy provider but because for whatever reason no one's crying "NERF TRINITY" are they?

There was a Nerf exclamation a way ago regarding her 100% link which DE then changed.

Now link is barely used because to use a good link you need Duration which kills EV trin.

[Hellmaker2004]

On 2016-04-01 at 3:25 AM, LittleArachnid said:

Yes completely agreed! If people are so trigger happy about nerfing special builds and warframes how about we address the current issues and problems with level scaling, and use the sorties' scaling problem comparing to endurance runs in the void. Because people seem only too eager to want to make builds or warframes weaker because they think it's overpowered. I've seen too many threads saying "nerf this frame" "this frame is too OP". 

I can't speak for every single player but I'd rather a rework to make that frame's abilities synergise well and work together. Example, the Mag rework will more than likely make her more than just the 'corpus killer' frame. I've been enjoying playing her with the Orbit skin set and a rework will make her all the more better. Trinity for another example is a healing paragon and energy provider but because for whatever reason no one's crying "NERF TRINITY" are they?

TL:DR- People are only too happy to cry "nerf this frame" and want the warframe to be weaker than to address the level scaling problems in endurance runs, the sorties themselves have shown the problem/s with them. 

 

There is currently a weekly quota of Nerf Trinity once a week as a minimum. The problem with Trinity is that people forget there are two builds, one where you can exploit. And another that dismiss any concept of energy management in the game.

And then people complain about her capability's from both builds and act like one build can perform them both at the same time.

[ariivanasan]

12 hours ago, Feallike said:

---

maybe its not mirage need nerf? maybe just buff excalibur by removing LOS from the game completely 

[Dobermann92]

Keep her as she is, on Grineer sortie interception she is very useful to have.

[ariivanasan]

17 minutes ago, Dobermann92 said:

Keep her as she is, on Grineer sortie interception she is very useful to have.

don't forget about Trials too

[Gurpgork]

1 hour ago, Dobermann92 said:

Keep her as she is, on Grineer sortie interception she is very useful to have.

She can be useful to have without completely and utterly removing action and combat from a game centered around action and combat.