The De-personalization of Warframes...

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, Rorgal_Sina said:

....

Do the Tenno control every muscle of the Warframe?

i think this depends on us players and our constitution when we play =)))

finally, great thread, all the different angle of views, knowing of the parts of the lore and its interpretation and ideas and extensions and "looks" into the future are really great, thx to everyone

i have the pictures in my mind as well as not the time to focus on for finding the right words, as well as i can see the pics we share in our minds are allready spoken by many in different ways which leads nearly to the same result

i think the direction the operator is connected to a frame is settled down in a faar future based on orokin technology and minds development itself, and, our minds have much more capacity to do things if arranged well as we can imagine now ^^)

Edited April 6, 2016 by Guest

[CuddlyTurtle]

16 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

I don't follow you. Hayden didn't have power armor, he was a human with a plague that made metallic plates jut out of his flesh

The fact that you think Stalker is ANY kind of Tenno means you're missing the retcon. Stalker's old lore had Stalker say TO OUR FACES that he was not nor could ever be possibly labeled as a Tenno; he was a non-Tenno human Guardian (possibly an undead one) who wore a stolen Warframe. Then comes Second Dream which implies he's a Tenno

I had the impression that it wasn't implying he was a Tenno, more that it was implying he wasn't any different to one. Like, he may have started off as a non-Tenno guardian, over the years he's basically become one just by acting and behaving exactly like one. Think of it like a 'He who hunts monsters must take care lest he become a monster himself' scenario, he's turned into the thing he hates and didn't even realize it.

[DeejayPwny]

They've clarified actually, that Hayden and the other aspects of Dark Sector (pre-alpha or no) are NOT canon. The original concepts and what not may be incorpertated, but specific details (like the Technocyte being a weapon manufactured by the United States) are simply not related to warframe. 

On that note, the Lotus and enemies talk to the Tenno because, get this, they were talking to YOU. You, the player, are your Tenno. We had been led to believe that we were in the suits, and everyone except the Lotus thought so too (Lotus obviously knew, she was the one who hid us). Think of it like this. I am talking to you, but not directly. I am actually using my computer to communicate with your computer, which is a surrogate for you. You are not your computer, you merely control it, but I can talk to you through it. Rough, but that's a general idea of it (if not horribly worded).

 

There were no plotholes. We were aware we are tenno, we just THOUGHT we were in the suit, which we then found out wasn't true, discovering that we were merely controlling the Warframe from afar.

[Valiant]

17 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

The thing is, that's pretty clearly not the case. The players who don't like the Operators have always been a vocal minority. Several polls back in December showed that.

Probably just thinking of the hate thread(s) we had and how vocal some of them were. I'd also say some probably may have accepted and moved on. 

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

Well they are not painted into a corner in the interim. The Kids in the basement can eventually grow up into fully fledged adults. Right there you have another massive update and change to Warframe waiting in the background as this game progresses into year 4 and 5 to avoid stagnation. 

So eventually you might see the human being put back into the Warframe if the game's mechanics and story line changes along the lines of the Focus Tree and the moth balling of Mod Cards over the next two years. 

 

[fatpig84]

You only know the Operator.

You don't know what is inside the suit.

[Guest]

hayden has the same or close the same "cosmetics" like the operators right now, or vice versa ^^))))))))))))))

 

[VoidNomade]

If you think there´s nothing more to warframes than them just being some sort of puppet...

i´m pretty sure DE will blow your mind

 

The story hasn´t been told, it´s only the beginning.

[Rejutka_Lupex]

5 hours ago, aoguro_ said:

(a handful of kids at this zariman-story for thousands of players ? there my mind goes ...

I think the story in the Inaros quest gives us a morsel with which we can fix this problem. Recall what the voice said about the golden sky-men and why the locals were mourning afterwards.

 

Spoiler

i.e. the Orokin apparently stole their kids. For what purpose? Surely it's unethical to send your own kids to certain doom/mutilation. But someone elses, perhaps from an inferior culture? Well...

 

WRT to the connection between Warframe and Tenno, it reminds me a bit of the Transformers Headmasters technology (old Marvel comic, not cartoon, maybe new comics). I.e. two separate minds merging into a single mind.

Although I don't think the warframe itself has much of a mind, I'm guessing it's mostly "muscle memory" and instinct. More like joining your mind and that of your animal companion perhaps?
(I didn't want to say pet - if it's an animal you're fighting with, it's not just a pet.)

Edited April 6, 2016 by Rejutka_Lupex

[Horaciozhao]

I wouldn´t think they are de-personalized just yet, because we still don´t know what are the warframes, we know there is a operator controlling them but as Hunhow said in the end of second dream when your frame moved without tenno control:"What is this?". There are more to those frames, I bet on it.

[TARINunit9]

3 hours ago, DeejayPwny said:

They've clarified actually, that Hayden and the other aspects of Dark Sector (pre-alpha or no) are NOT canon. The original concepts and what not may be incorpertated, but specific details (like the Technocyte being a weapon manufactured by the United States) are simply not related to warframe. 

darkSector isn't fully non-canon, it's just irrelevant. Lemme demonstrate my point with a partial timeline of the Warframe universe:

1965 AD: Hayden Tenno is born
1990 AD: Hayden Tenno is infected with the Technocyte Virus, and the events of darkSector happen
1992 AD: Hayden Tenno dies
6037 AD: The Orokin Empire creates Excalibur Prime, the first Warframe, based on the Proto-Armor blueprint. The Orokin use Transference to allow a Zariman child to control the Warframe remotely. In doing so they create the first Tenno
6038 AD: The first Tenno finds Hayden's glaive (somehow) and builds his own version of the Glaive Prime to look like Hayden's glaive

darkSector happened, but isn't relevant

[Railgun_Alter]

Well, I did Second Dream 2 weeks ago. 

 

And well... it was HARD.

Like, I'm seriously freaking worried for the possibility of facing another freaking Conculyst ever again T_T

It had been a long time since a game felt so... well put together in its lore. And sad. The end of it and hearing the Tenno's story first hand, specially

When I saw my Tenno crawling up to her deactivated Excalibur and bringing it up to life... To realize she had been asleep all this time.

After i stopped freaking out about the +50 Sentients chasing me and got back the the Orbiter, well...

Watching my helpless Excalibur being impaled was harsh... Watching it move by ITSELF, though...

 

See where I'm getting at?

Up to this point, we were led to believe (wethere we believed it or not) that Tenno were Warframes, each a living being of its own.

The Second Dream comes out, and says that, instead, the Tenno are truly human beings controlling Warframes, surrogate bodies, through Trascendence...

Or does it?

 

You might think I might be overemotional about it by my story up there, but think about it. The quest made you feel bad/sad about your Warframe, even going as far as freaking stabbing it in front of you. But if it just a "machine" as some say here, then why do you feel for it that way?
And you must not forget (and I'll put my case as example), "Excalibur, laying limp on the ground and WITHOUT Transference, came back to life and broke The Stalker's Sword..."

Can we really not say that Warframe are indeed alive? Yes Tenno are human, but they aren't just weaklings laying on a glorified chair.
It's said in the quest (and maybe somewhere else, but I can't tell for sure). Transference is developed because Tenno were too powerful for their own good. The Warframes are supposed to be a vessel of their power.

I believe more light will be shed upon the Warframe's strange actions in the Second Dream's finale in the future.

But I think we can all agree Tenno are not useless and that Warframes are (by some extent) alive as well.

[Guest]

i for myself guess that this theme will never be solved

the aim of warframe is to share art, a wonderful game (even thats a simple "other" shooter as so many) and making cash

and for making cash we will get no solution here in the lore anymore, its too late

HALO got greg bear to bring a bit clearness into the whole chaos and he was suckessful, this is why they even hired him, to bring a "storyline" into the allready created halo-universe

and he didnt talk about the masterchief in his trilogy, he has only shared his view about the basement and why "halo" exist

warframes lacks a ton of a clear storyline and it doesnt look like that there is even a chance to come back to a clear lore and somebody - as it looks like - decided allready that it doesnt need one, warframe has enough followers which say to every confusion yes and take everything DE gives them, there is nothing wrong as well as people which have a good mind are different ^^)

as in real life, you cant change the past, as well as with insight you can take hands on what the future brings if you start changing things in the here and now for the future, the past cant be changed ^^)

even in that thread here is right now so much confusing information that i simply leave my interest for not getting more confused about a clear lore which i cant get

and before it get endless ... its a great thread here, DE chooses to make things clear, or not ... we cant do anything for nor against the "system warframe" (^^

Edited April 7, 2016 by Guest

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

The advantage and challenge of the Tenno/Warframe dichotomy is, it lets the player have all the classes and characters they want in one profile and one continuity of play. Normally you would have to start a new character to play a different role in the majority of games. Exceptions exist, but rarely of the magnitude. 

 

Yes this creates a cognitive dissonance for the player, who is torn with who to decide with, but in a stroke of truly inspired story telling, DE decided to make that the crux of the Tenno itself. 

 

You our are the Tenno, and the Tenno can be anything. DE can keep crafting new and unique Warframes, and you can slip right into one. That is not just good marketing, it great freedom of choice for the players. 

 

Anyone who thinks that it's hard to identify with machines, and it's not totally clear what the Warframes are yet, need to watch more classic anime. I feel just fine for Vultron. 

 

The degree of intelligence and autonomy the Warframes themselves are capable of. And "if" the Stalker is, Warfrsme without Operator, or never had one, as the case maybe, or forgot he has one as may also be the case. Because, really his beef is over the destruction of the Orokin. Anyway you slice could also be a clue. 

 

I am curious to see how Inarous effects the timeline. The mention of the Golden Skymen makes me think that the colony was pre-collapse, but they seemed very primitive. To be fair it isn't clear in the story if they are. But if they where a post collapse colony, then who where the Golden Skymen? Makes me think that the Orokin where terrible Shepard's, and left their colonies rather isolated, only to show up to stoke myths and legends. Could be that the story covers pre and post collapse, but that doesn't clear up the confusion. 

 

Anyways, just some thoughts. 

Edited April 7, 2016 by (PS4)MoRockaPDX

[UrielColtan]

On 4/5/2016 at 4:34 PM, AsharaClaudia said:

But DE has said (long before the second dream) that they didn't want players feeling like they were controlling individual heroes. and if you were planning on writing fan fic with your headcanon, you still can because its still fan fiction.

This is a lie. Hell even Geoff pointed out how its better for people to have their own vision of their Tenno.

Quote

The lore regarding the operators has been here for a while but The Second Dream just pulled it together. If you read Embers codex entry it tells of the ship the Zariman Ten-Zero (or Ten-Oh) and the Orokin woman found a bunch of children on board that had powers (they burnt her). Then in the Rhino entry it tells the story of when the Orokin first learned that the Tenno can control the Warframes. 

Yes, just like everyone, they started out as children, though Ember codex didn't express that they would stay children. The Rhino codex was not made until a year before this quest and still had leeway for the original idea of actually wearing the frames and growing up. Pretty late in the game to be denying the original idea that was pushed, which is why they had to make Lotus a liar and make the Tenno assume they were actually in the frame, so much asspull to the point that they had to retcon Stalker's original motivation for going after the Tenno, and even making him team up with the Orokin's enemy to do it, turning him into one big contradiction, all so they could prop up this sorry plot direction. "Tenno" came from Hayden Tenno, they just decided to give the ship that numeration last minute for the quest, it was not in the Ember codex.

 

Quote

 

The advantage and challenge of the Tenno/Warframe dichotomy is, it lets the player have all the classes and characters they want in one profile and one continuity of play. Normally you would have to start a new character to play a different role in the majority of games. Exceptions exist, but rarely of the magnitude. 

 

Yes this creates a cognitive dissonance for the player, who is torn with who to decide with, but in a stroke of truly inspired story telling, DE decided to make that the crux of the Tenno itself. 

 

You our are the Tenno, and the Tenno can be anything. DE can keep crafting new and unique Warframes, and you can slip right into one. That is not just good marketing, it great freedom of choice for the players. 

 

Anyone who thinks that it's hard to identify with machines, and it's not totally clear what the Warframes are yet, need to watch more classic anime. I feel just fine for Vultron. 

 

The degree of intelligence and autonomy the Warframes themselves are capable of. And "if" the Stalker is, Warfrsme without Operator, or never had one, as the case maybe, or forgot he has one as may also be the case. Because, really his beef is over the destruction of the Orokin. Anyway you slice could also be a clue. 

 

I am curious to see how Inarous effects the timeline. The mention of the Golden Skymen makes me think that the colony was pre-collapse, but they seemed very primitive. To be fair it isn't clear in the story if they are. But if they where a post collapse colony, then who where the Golden Skymen? Makes me think that the Orokin where terrible Shepard's, and left their colonies rather isolated, only to show up to stoke myths and legends. Could be that the story covers pre and post collapse, but that doesn't clear up the confusion. 

 

Anyways, just some thoughts. 

 

The operator can have their race, sex and face changed, yet it needs no explanation. This same philosophy should have been extended to the concept of wearing the frames from the beginning. Swapping frames never needed explanation, and they are already masked, you could have already had varying ideas of the Tenno under the helmet. Forcing a narrow assortment of kid faces narrows all that personal variation.

They made frames immortal from a story standpoint and removed the Tenno from the actual battlefield on top of that. The Corpus and Grineer don't even seem that bad due to this direction. They killed the suspense from a lore and world building perspective for me.

 

Edited April 7, 2016 by UrielColtan

[Omnimorph]

On 06 April 2016 at 4:36 PM, Rorgal_Sina said:

Now assuming that #WarframeLivesMatter

The problem with this view is that we have not yet established the actual definition of transference. It's a link, I get it, but we haven't confirmed it as a "master to slave" type of relationship.

Do the Tenno control every muscle of the Warframe?

The nature of transference is definitely established, yes every "muscle" (or some biomechanical/nanotechnological/whatever future tech yada) equivalent of muscle. 

The Tenno doesn't just control the Warframe, they are at one with it, in the sense that Jake Sully is at one with his Na'avi avatar in Avatar.

There's not a jot or tittle of room for any conscious sense of remote operation (i.e. as if you were playing with a joystick), the remoteness of control is an objective fact, but the way it seems to the Tenno is that they are, or are inside, the Warframe, and control it directly. 

It's not that this is confirmed as a master/slave relationship, it's that this type of relationship would be considered a master/slave relationship if and only if the Warframe has any sentience or sapience of its own above that of, say, a pet dog, and even if it were like a pet dog, the situation is that the dog's "mind" (such as it is) would be, as it were, temporarily shunted aside while the Tenno's mind replaces it as being the thing in control of the Warframe.

On the subject of how far it goes, the Na'avi avatar in Avatar is again instructive: the Na'avi avatars are grown in a vat, they have a brain, but the brain has never at any time had any sentience or sapience, it's just capable of housing such.

There are roughly three levels to consider here:-

The base level possibility is that Warframes are the same as the Na'avi avatar (only more plastics and metals than organics).  Some part of the Warframe (probably partly computerized, partly organic), is like the equivalent of the Na'avi avatar's vat-grown brain and nervous system, but as with the Na'avi avatar, it's a blank brain until the Tenno's mind "lives" in it. 

The next level is more equivalent to Bran warging into Hodor in Game of Thrones, or just simply a rider riding a horse (just more intimately at one with each other).  The "brain" part of the Warframe has some kind of rudimentary intelligence of its own, but it's shunted aside by the Tenno's mind.  That's already getting a bit creepy, but we forgive it in Bran's case, because there's love between them, and we can surmise that Hodor knows that they're helping each other out (it's roughly similar with creatures we ride - the best case is that there is some kind of mutual respect/regard between rider and ridden).  That's quite an attractive option for the Warframes because it makes them a bit like friendly pets in a way (or, again, like horses, say).

The final level is that the Warframe has an ongoing, fairly complex sapience.  In that case, we're dealing with a true "master/slave" situation - the shunting aside of whatever complex mind inhabits the Warframe would be considered highly unethical in our contemporary situation.  The Na'avi avatar never had this sort of complex mind inhabiting its brain; Hodor has a simple mind, but we forgive the situation in context because of the living human relationship between them.  But if the Warframes are already sentient to a higher level than a dog or Hodor, then we're in real ethical trouble.

I kind of favour something inbetween the Warframe's "brain"-like component, with long use and familiarity (affinity) developing a short-lived sentience of its own (an "echo" of the Tenno's sentience, as it were, lingering in the frame for a time), and it being something like like a loyal puppy, with long-time use and a kind of "grooving" effect.  But this is something built up over time, it's never something that's taken away from the Warframe, or that usurps some putative control the Warframe had of itself before being piloted - it's like an added bonus that the Waframe happens to develop with long use, like a comfortable pair of slippers taking the imprint of the owner's feet. 

On the other hand, it would be intensely dramatic if it were found that the Warframes are independently intelligent creatures above the dog/Hodor level.  It would be difficult to see how that could be morally sustained if, e.g., it were discovered to be the case (whereas formerly everyone had believed they were insentient, or at most puppy/Hodor-like).  There would then have to be a resolution of some kind to resolve the moral problem, which might be interesting.

[arch111]

I stand my ground that a warframe is a biotechnological entity, that is born from the imprint of the first Tenno who used it.

Affinity with a warframe makes the Bond stronger, but allso makes the warframes more autonomous.

A learning computer and AI will at one point reach self-awareness and self-worth - "Who am I? What do I want?"

The warframes were clearly beasts from the beginning, cloned infested copies of the zariman survivors - the Rejects of Lua. How else could they Channel Void?

So I am the warframe. The Operator makes me function, but it's like Iron Man and Tony Stark. He sometimes controls the suit, sometimes he gives it orders, and sometimes Jarvis does the flying.