All warframes are good

[(PSN)Captain_Bonecold]

There is no such thing as a bad warframe. I get this in region chat all the time. Because someone always says this: "Saryn Sucks"or "Limbo sucks" or "Loki is worthless now".

 

First off. Saryn is my favorite warframe. And to hear you insulting a warframe is just bad manners. Every warframe has a purpose. Not all are tanks. Not all are DPS. Not all are crowed control. For those people who insult these warframes. Do you know how to use them? Saryn is DPS. Limbo is support. Loki is crowded control. No one warframe is better than others. And every warframe is good. You just need to know how to use them.

 

I aslo get people insulting Oberon. He more of a paladin than anything. Renewal isn't full heal. It only heals Health. And it delays your death. Something Trinity can't do for a down player. Everyone praises trinity. But a lot insult Oberon.

[Chipputer]

I mean, fundamentally I guess this is feedback, sure, but it's more a discussion topic. Be careful with your placement of things like this.

 

Also, it's a hyperbolic statement based on their use of "meta" frames and an issue with people who compare individual abilities of frames with entire frames.

You mention Oberon-- he's a perfect example of this.
Yes, on paper Oberon's damage is lacking. Yes, in practice he has issues killing. Yes, in practice he also has issues surviving after a certain point.
Smite is the perfect example of what a 1 should be.
Hallowed Ground has many issues and needs to be reworked. You also get people comparing it to Blessing's damage reduction, or Chroma being able to survive easily with his armor boosting abilities, among others who can do the same (Rhino, Nezha, etc).
Renewal is often compared to Blessing, as a whole, and deemed worthless. "The bleedout timer increase is there, I guess," is often the attitude related to it.
Reckoning is compared to almost every other AoE CC or Damage ability, rather than looked at for its own merits, which is a guaranteed Radiation proc, a guaranteed knockdown for anything directly affected by it, and a blind that extends to enemies that walk into the range between the start and finish of the cast.

What this ends up with is a frame that can be useful in almost any situation, but doesn't excel at any of the situations in the same way a Loki, Trinity, Frost, or some other frame would. This leads to people just saying, "bad frame," instead of stating the merits of the frame and giving them a fair shake. I know plenty of people that refuse to run groups with Oberon in them, and I've personally been called names (even homophobic slurs) for running Oberon as a MR21 player with fully forma'd and modded gear on with him.

It's literally just people wanting frames to all be as powerful as the popular meta frames. If they aren't, they're "bad."

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

Toxic dripping sludge...spews forth from salty lime crusted lips...to tell someone that they are failing at life because they are not using those acceptable frame. 

7 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

It's literally just people wanting frames to all be as powerful as the popular meta frames. If they aren't, they're "bad."

No one deserves to be ridiculed for playing a game, it's not right. Alot of the stories about toxic players may stem from one such example: a team looking for an extra person, and then having to disband when they invite the wrong person, because there is no kick option, and they immaturely resort to being as offensive as possible to get the player to leave.

I'm always just disappointed in the fact that there are people who feel they have the right to tell you what you can use and how you can use it in a co op game, but we really need some more work done on how parties are made and such...

And since every frame by update 19 should be reworked, I will hold out to see what happens, but meta frames (whichever can be considered meta) usually have something about them that makes them more desirable than more underused frames. I don't want frames to be made weaker, so instead of lowering the standards, you will often find me in posts about frames needing reworks, or Qol improvements, not just needs to abilities with nothing added...meta frames can be meta frames.

"When everyone is special, then no one will be" ~ I just quoted the villian from the incredibles, does that make me the bad guy?....focuses on this one thought for the rest of the day*

[taiiat]

there's some Warframes that don't really achieve anything unique very successfully, or try to have certain aspects as part of their them but have all or almost all of them overshadowed by another choice(s).

so with those problems, all Warframes aren't good. technically almost all Warframes are bad, because almost every Warframe has atleast one Ability that sees very little reason to use, and so goes basically unused.
some Warframes are unlucky enough to have more than 2, maybe even more than 3, Abilities which have very little reason to use.

 

it goes the other way round as well, with some Warframes having Abilities that are very much too good to be true, where using it is effectively an instant win.
and that's a problem too.

Edited May 5, 2016 by taiiat

[Clonmac]

I think defining "good" is more of a relative term, not toward the warframe itself, but toward what is deemed the full extent to which the game itself is to be played.

I think every warframe is "good" in terms of being able to handle all enemies up to level 100 or so. But beyond that you get into this realm of min/maxing with builds that require certain abilities to work.

The bigger question is whether or not DE wants to cater their game toward this min/maxing style of gameplay or whether or not they want their game to exist solely for the purpose of staying within the bounds of levels 1-100. If they can build content so that the game is playable within those boundaries, then yes, all warframe are "good". But, if DE wants to cater toward the other spectrum where in order to feel any sort of progression, then you must push yourself to compete against level 200 enemies, then no, not all warframes will be "good" for that.

I hope that the former option is the route that is ultimately taken with this game where the content of the game is produced enough to the extend that you can feel fulfilled playing the game against enemies with boundaries of levels 1-100 or so.

[Wolfglaive]

Limbo isn't even remotely support. He can be played like a support if you're desperately trying to use him, but except in very specific situations, he's more annoying and a hinderance than anything else. He needs a full rework where he's actually useful to a squad instead of having to run an augment for mediocre heals or banish someone who probably doesn't even want it and thinking you're helping (which was happening to me last night while leveling on Draco, and cost us losing a point a few times due to having to roll out of it instead of being able to kill the enemy on the console). I can buy that he's currently an "assassin" who can pick out high priority targets, but honestly, he's even bad at doing that with how much time it takes to perform all necessary actions to do so, especially if that high priority target is in a crowd. My biggest beef with him, however, is that his Rift Surge is a selfish buff. It should affect all allies in the rift, not just Limbo.

He's the only frame that's downright bad, no matter how you mod him or how much you like him. There are others, like Ash, who need a rework to not be death inducingly boring (and also not lock people out of damaging an enemy, as is the case with Bladestorm), but he's without a doubt the lowest rung on the ladder, and he deserves more.

[CrimsonDalekanium]

45 minutes ago, Wolfglaive said:

Limbo isn't even remotely support. He can be played like a support if you're desperately trying to use him, but except in very specific situations, he's more annoying and a hinderance than anything else. He needs a full rework where he's actually useful to a squad instead of having to run an augment for mediocre heals or banish someone who probably doesn't even want it and thinking you're helping (which was happening to me last night while leveling on Draco, and cost us losing a point a few times due to having to roll out of it instead of being able to kill the enemy on the console). I can buy that he's currently an "assassin" who can pick out high priority targets, but honestly, he's even bad at doing that with how much time it takes to perform all necessary actions to do so, especially if that high priority target is in a crowd. My biggest beef with him, however, is that his Rift Surge is a selfish buff. It should affect all allies in the rift, not just Limbo.

He's the only frame that's downright bad, no matter how you mod him or how much you like him. There are others, like Ash, who need a rework to not be death inducingly boring (and also not lock people out of damaging an enemy, as is the case with Bladestorm), but he's without a doubt the lowest rung on the ladder, and he deserves more.

Excuse you? Limbo is bae. If you are looking for a healer or nuker, it is the wrong frame though. He does make you rely on your weapons AND your abilities, instead of one or the other.

 

Here's why Limbo is good: 

He is the only frame that can make your entire squad (AND allies) invincible for 55+ seconds.

He can regen 2 e/s for the whole squad AND do damage to enemies which enter a zone AND make a bulletproof bubble.

That dope-&#! top hat.

Corpus laser doors don't exist for him.

The mod Natural talent exists.

He is the only frame that can be nearly guaranteed invincible without any external energy source, meaning endless revives for your squad.

He can give a guaranteed knockdown to almost any enemy (except Nullifiers, enemies such as bursas, manics, scrambus, etc, and bosses) and trigger a ground finisher.

 

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

2 minutes ago, CrimsonDalekanium said:

Excuse you? Limbo is bae. If you are looking for a healer or nuker, it is the wrong frame though. He does make you rely on your weapons AND your abilities, instead of one or the other.

 

Here's why Limbo is good: 

He is the only frame that can make your entire squad (AND allies) invincible for 55+ seconds.

He can regen 2 e/s for the whole squad AND do damage to enemies which enter a zone AND make a bulletproof bubble.

That dope-&#! top hat.

Corpus laser doors don't exist for him.

The mod Natural talent exists.

He is the only frame that can be nearly guaranteed invincible without any external energy source, meaning endless revives for your squad.

He can give a guaranteed knockdown to almost any enemy (except Nullifiers, enemies such as bursas, manics, scrambus, etc, and bosses) and trigger a ground finisher.

 

But he should be obito uchiha, and he's not, so I can't love him :_(

[Wolfglaive]

9 minutes ago, CrimsonDalekanium said:

Excuse you? Limbo is bae. If you are looking for a healer or nuker, it is the wrong frame though. He does make you rely on your weapons AND your abilities, instead of one or the other.

 

Here's why Limbo is good: 

He is the only frame that can make your entire squad (AND allies) invincible for 55+ seconds.

He can regen 2 e/s for the whole squad AND do damage to enemies which enter a zone AND make a bulletproof bubble.

That dope-&#! top hat.

Corpus laser doors don't exist for him.

The mod Natural talent exists.

He is the only frame that can be nearly guaranteed invincible without any external energy source, meaning endless revives for your squad.

He can give a guaranteed knockdown to almost any enemy (except Nullifiers, enemies such as bursas, manics, scrambus, etc, and bosses) and trigger a ground finisher.

 

He's still garbage, sorry. Natural Talent has nothing to do with anything, thanks, it's not cast speed I'm referring to, it's the inefficiency of time in which it takes to remove one enemy from the field using Limbo. Your point about invincibility is moot, considering that you can only damage things also in the rift, or by using powers. What does essentially removing frames from the field of play do? He should have a way to allow teammates and the Limbo player themselves to shoot outside of the rift. He needs a rework. His 2 energy per second regen is nice, but that's the only thing he has going for him, and frankly, there's plenty of other ways to obtain energy that are significantly more practical than staying banished to the rift and forfeiting your ability to use guns. Ground finishers aren't hard to perform WITHOUT ability use, so please explain why I should care? As for your point about his being invincible for endless revives, I don't have a clue why I'd give a damn about that. If you've got people going down enough to where you have someone run a frame specifically to revive them, you're doing something wrong.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Wolfglaive

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

4 minutes ago, Wolfglaive said:

He's still garbage, sorry. Natural Talent has nothing to do with anything, thanks, it's not cast speed I'm referring to, it's the inefficiency of time in which it takes to remove one enemy from the field using Limbo. Your point about invincibility is moot, considering that you can only damage things also in the rift, or by using powers. What does essentially removing frames from the field of play do? He should have a way to allow teammates and the Limbo player themselves to shoot outside of the rift. He needs a rework. His 2 energy per second regen is nice, but that's the only thing he has going for him, and frankly, there's plenty of other ways to obtain energy that are significantly more practical than staying banished to the rift and forfeiting your ability to use guns. Ground finishers aren't hard to perform WITHOUT ability use, so please explain why I should care? As for your point about his being invincible for endless revives, I don't have a clue why I'd give a damn about that. If you've got people going down enough to where you have someone run a frame specifically to revive them, you're doing something wrong.

Uuhh, I mean, you got pretty heated sir. Rift walk is cool. Rift walk with friends is not cool- stuff like that, limbo is just had a lot of links that need to be worked out. Limbo takes a devoted player to use and appreciate, and here is that player, over there, not here. he is not viable for every player, but this guy likes him.

[Wolfglaive]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Uuhh, I mean, you got pretty heated sir. Rift walk is cool. Rift walk with friends is not cool- stuff like that, limbo is just had a lot of links that need to be worked out. Limbo takes a devoted player to use and appreciate, and here is that player, over there, not here. he is not viable for every player, but this guy likes him.

Saying he takes a "devoted player to use and appreciate" doesn't make him better. Sorry. You can like him, that's fine, but pretending he's good isn't a way to get him fixed, it's a way to get him ignored. He has the potential to be a very unique and interesting frame, and as it stands, he is woefully underwhelming and a significant hinderance in team based play, to the point of being mildly annoying unless your group is explicitly catering to him being in, which shouldn't be required.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Wolfglaive

[Kevlareater]

3 minutes ago, CrimsonDalekanium said:

Excuse you? Limbo is bae. If you are looking for a healer or nuker, it is the wrong frame though. He does make you rely on your weapons AND your abilities, instead of one or the other.

 

Here's why Limbo is good: 

He is the only frame that can make your entire squad (AND allies) invincible for 55+ seconds.

He can regen 2 e/s for the whole squad AND do damage to enemies which enter a zone AND make a bulletproof bubble.

That dope-&#! top hat.

Corpus laser doors don't exist for him.

The mod Natural talent exists.

He is the only frame that can be nearly guaranteed invincible without any external energy source, meaning endless revives for your squad.

He can give a guaranteed knockdown to almost any enemy (except Nullifiers, enemies such as bursas, manics, scrambus, etc, and bosses) and trigger a ground finisher.

 

Bulletproof bubbles are pretty bad. They kinda get in the way of me killing things.

Anyone with some know-how can move through laser doors, if we're talking Corpus spy missions. Outside of those, Mirage can make laser doors hers.

Slam attacks and weapons outfitted w/blast damage can also knockdown. But yanno what else can also knockdown with their first skill? Smite (Oberon), Soul Punch (Nekros), Iron Jab (Wukong), Sonic Boom (Banshee), Tempest Barrage (Hydroid), Tail Wind (Zephyr).

Invincibility's no good if the other player(s) cannot harm the enemy with their weapons. Then again, Cataclysm is a flustercuck inside that bubble and a group of enemies usually has the advantage inside it.

Ooooh, 2 energy a second. How can I refuse such an offer while I can't kill anything with my weapon unless they're also in the rift, and the banished heavy may be quite powerful.

Banshee is neither a nuker nor healer, yet can provide great support by making weapons hit harder and aoe stagger. Mirage blinds, Loki disarms, etc. Don't need to heal or nuke to matter.

[IceColdHawk]

1 minute ago, Wolfglaive said:

Saying he takes a "devoted player to use an appreciate" doesn't make him better. Sorry. You can like him, that's fine, but pretending he's good isn't a way to get him fixed, it's a way to get him ignored. He has the potential to be a very unique and interesting frame, and as it stands, he is woefully underwhelming and a significant hinderance in team based play, to the point of being mildly annoying unless your group is explicitly catering to him being in, which shouldn't be required.

Hey you Wolfglaive. I cannot agree more with you.

Then there is also hydroid. Meh, useful with naramon maybe but that's about it.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

4 minutes ago, Wolfglaive said:

Saying he takes a "devoted player to use an appreciate" doesn't make him better. Sorry. You can like him, that's fine, but pretending he's good isn't a way to get him fixed, it's a way to get him ignored. He has the potential to be a very unique and interesting frame, and as it stands, he is woefully underwhelming and a significant hinderance in team based play, to the point of being mildly annoying unless your group is explicitly catering to him being in, which shouldn't be required.

Oh yeah, I agree with you, Limbo has a lot of kinks that need to be worked out, an entire rework. Blissful and stubborn ignorance of a problem and it's inconvience to others because it doesnt affect you annoys the crap out of me too...but he is just being a fan of limbo, and not even an offensively toxic one, though his points are easily disproved. I love banshees sound quake. It just looks cool. It has terrible survivability if playing solo. I acknowledge this, but if someone suggest to remove it, I try to convince them otherwise. I would be pretty surprised if in response I got such a heated message, that's all.

[CrimsonDalekanium]

I will agree with the idea that Limbo is clunky to use, his abilities can synergize poorly with both each other and with a team, and his ability augs are terrible. But once you equip medi ray, Zenurik lens, flow, and Quick Thinking, his lack of durability while on the same plane as his enemies can be made up for with some parkour and a shotgun/launcher. Rift walk -> Banish Target->Sancti Tigris/ground melee finisher->unbanish target if living->if enemy not dead, wait for it to stand up and  repeat steps 2-3. Limbo is definitely, definitely not a top-tier frame (middle of the pack probably), and isn't really terrific at team play. But once you get used to him solo, he can be a lot of fun.

[IceColdHawk]

Just now, CrimsonDalekanium said:

But once you equip medi ray, Zenurik lens, flow, and Quick Thinking, his lack of durability while on the same plane as his enemies can be made up for with some parkour and a shotgun/launcher.

That can be applied to any frame though. It's the tools, not he himself.

[DrBorris]

True, but a lot of frames could be better. 

[GorgonKain]

I will have to respectfully disagree with the OP, as lovely a chap as he seems. Most of the frames in the game are bad objectively, because their primary role or abilities are outclassed. I am not citing some ethereal comparison, when you take a direct look at Trinity vs. Oberon when you need a healer, Trinity is objectively better. Now if you needed something to clear and avoid status (I.E. Rad Sorties) when making that direct comparison, Trinity is objectively bad in this scenario, and Nezha is outclassed, making Oberon the best possible choice for the role. 

 

Keep in mind these comparisons need only be made sometimes. If I am hosting a 2hr T4 Survival, I will not choose to take a Hydroid because he offers very little to the party, and does not have enough survivalist options to anchor. For this situation, taking a Hydroid into my game, quite literally, makes the game harder. It is an objectively bad choice, particularly when there are better choices if I am in dire need of a melee frame or CC. 

 

This, at least when I say something is "bad", is what I mean. There is a better choice for the role that you are trying to play, or I need in my party. 

 

Side note, I only really do this kind of thing if I am hosting some high-level content or want something done as efficiently as possible so I can move on to something I find more enjoyable (like if I am credit farming, but really want to be doing today's sortie.) People who do this about star-chart content or 40min Survivals do need to get a grip, and learn that at that point, you can bring 3 Hydroids and a Banshee, and have a grand ol' time.

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Captain_Bonecold said:

There is no such thing as a bad warframe.

Except Oberon.

 

I kid. However, he is the worst frame at his intended role. This is not an insult, it's a statement of fact. Oberon has to work harder than any other frame to be of use to the squad. Let me give some actual reasons, though.

  1. His 1 is pretty good, but would be more beneficial if it didn't damage the cast target; that way, you'd get much better CC and group damage. As is, the CC ends when the cast target dies, which is quickly on lighter targets.
  2. The range on his 2 is at odds with the basic mechanics of the game; this isn't a cover shooter, frames are highly mobile. Since the armor buff doesn't scale, it should use the armor value modified by Oberon's other armor buffs. (Other buffs should still operate on base armor; otherwise this would be completely broken.)
  3. His 3 requires spamming to actually save him or the squad, and leaves him completely vulnerable so he's probably going to die before it works.
  4. His 4 does good damage, but the range is small compared to similar powers, and the orb chance doesn't allow you to take advantage of Health Conversion like a Despoil Nekros can. A variable orb chance that even allows multiple orbs per target would give Reckoning utility beyond raw damage. The aug also needs a total overhaul. Those tiny rings are useless in any situation where frames would actually need an armor buff.

All Oberon really needs to succeed is 275-300 base armor, 225 base health, a few tweaks to his powers and some synergy between them so his builds aren't so cripplingly exclusive. Then he would be a genuinely great frame. As is, he's just a leftover from when WF's mechanics were very, very different.

Edited May 5, 2016 by (PS4)BlitzKeir

[AM-Bunny]

All Warframes are good.

Some are just more good than others.

Lastly, I'd have to think

real hard to remember the last time anyone said:

5 hours ago, (PS4)Captain_Bonecold said:

"Loki is worthless now".

[(XBOX)killmasterODST]

On ‎5‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 1:52 PM, Wolfglaive said:

Limbo isn't even remotely support. He can be played like a support if you're desperately trying to use him, but except in very specific situations, he's more annoying and a hinderance than anything else. He needs a full rework where he's actually useful to a squad instead of having to run an augment for mediocre heals or banish someone who probably doesn't even want it and thinking you're helping (which was happening to me last night while leveling on Draco, and cost us losing a point a few times due to having to roll out of it instead of being able to kill the enemy on the console). I can buy that he's currently an "assassin" who can pick out high priority targets, but honestly, he's even bad at doing that with how much time it takes to perform all necessary actions to do so, especially if that high priority target is in a crowd. My biggest beef with him, however, is that his Rift Surge is a selfish buff. It should affect all allies in the rift, not just Limbo.

He's the only frame that's downright bad, no matter how you mod him or how much you like him. There are others, like Ash, who need a rework to not be death inducingly boring (and also not lock people out of damaging an enemy, as is the case with Bladestorm), but he's without a doubt the lowest rung on the ladder, and he deserves more.

Im gonna kick your son in the ribs