So the Arbiters were right ? [Second Dream Spoilers]

[(PSN)Akuma_Asura_]

"The Arbiters of Hexis exemplify a burning passion to search for the truth of Tenno ability, composed with the knowledge that Tenno are far greater than even their shattered history suggests."

So why was the lotus trying to hide this from us in the first place ? & I wonder how the arbiters got this idea from, that the Tenno are more then they seemed. Maybe they have a Tenno among them or a Tenno ancestor. 

Cough* Hopefully there was a Arbiters warframe a long time ago or something that branched away from the lotus and started AOH.

but yeah it's all speculation what do you think regarding the arbiters of Hexis.

Edited May 24, 2016 by (PS4)Akuma_Asura_

[ArchangelusAlpharius]

I don't think that even Mom knows about all our history. Despite having a solar spanning intelligence network, recall that the Orokin kept much of the Tenno secret, and despite Mom having access to Marguilis-Mom, even she had no idea the extent of it all. The Arbiters want to be more than just warriors...but in order to become a painter, or a chef... The Tenno must first fight. 

Edited May 24, 2016 by ArchangelusAlpharius

[Revenant102]

I think that the Arbiters' philosophy is less that the Tenno are more than they appear physically and more about culturally and philosophically there being more depth and potential than a fragmented history showing us as weapons and mercenaries would seem to imply.

[Kaotyke]

Nope.

The Tenno's "Shattered history" is the fact that we were once the Shinning Hope of the Orokin and the Sol System in the Old War, and when it ended the Tenno betrayed the Orokin and send the system into chaos because of that, then left.

The Arbiters believe the Tenno can become more than just warriors and surpass the Orokin in every way. Nothing else.

[Blakrana]

The Arbiters, at least as I interpret their perspective, just want to see what more the Tenno could do. I mean, sure, destroying scores of foes is impressive...but there's a definite Ascetic and cultural expanse past their combat prowess. Arbiters just seem interested in seeing that expanded upon. Every accomplishment remains viewed in the context 'you can do more'. What more comprises of specifically...good question we're still not able to answer.

But, well...due to the fact we've still not gotten any real information to expand on what the Syndicates are after, all we're going to end up discussing is interpretations of limited material. Arbiters and Loka far as I see it, in that sense, are the Syndicates about 'potential', arguably in a spiritual sense at that. Others likely certainly disagree when it comes to Loka with that Point of View but...that's how it goes when you've got vague blurb.

 

[Alma_Elma]

Personally I'm just more curious if the Arbiters even know who the Tenno really were: a bunch of mentally scarred psychic kids who were put into comas so they could control warframes as proxies.

I mean if they knew the truth, this would probably cause some of them to rethink their belief system.

[SeaUrchins]

Arbiters are a Tenno fanclub, they think Tenno are larger than life and idolise them. In reality they have not even a remotest idea who or what Tenno are.

[Alma_Elma]

Just now, SeaUrchins said:

Arbiters are a Tenno fanclub, they think Tenno are larger than life and idolise them. In reality they have not even a remotest idea who or what Tenno are.

Arbiters confirmed for Tennoboos.

[ArchangelusAlpharius]

11 minutes ago, Alma_Elma said:

Arbiters confirmed for Tennoboos.

BEHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAH

Inb4 photoshopped Tenno-chan or something

Edited May 24, 2016 by ArchangelusAlpharius

[BornWithTeeth]

Hmmm. 

 

I used to be in with the Arbiters. After Second Dream, I realised that they knew nothing of what I/my Operator truly was, and I lost....esteem for them? The revelation of the true form of the Tenno, and the awakened memories, led to a renewed interest in Earth, and I courted New Loka. In effect, the shocking ignorance of the Arbiters forced me to realise that they knew little of what they were talking about, and that whenever they said 'potential' they meant 'power'. I now think that they're just a sect whose beliefs lead them to align with the Tenno, hoping to harness us, trying to encourage the Tenno to stop thinking of themselves purely as warriors, and perhaps start thinking of themselves as conquerors, queens and princes.

 

 

I just want them to cough up a Telos Nikana which almost approaches the level of murderosity of the Nikana Prime.

[(PSN)Akuma_Asura_]

3 hours ago, Venom-Snake said:

The Arbiters believe the Tenno can become more than just warriors and surpass the Orokin in every way. Nothing else.

Oh I didn't make up the quote in the op that's from the wiki , & they probably got it from the game, so idk about "nothing else"

Edited May 24, 2016 by (PS4)Akuma_Asura_

[Telluric]

I love the Arbiters of Hexis a great deal, and from what I've managed to observe from them, for all of the airs that they put on, they really don't know anything about the Tenno at all. This is why they are rather obsessed with them, to the point where they are disregarding a widely-accepted belief that the Tenno are warriors, and are trying to come up with something else to satisfy themselves. 

I'm sure that their intentions aren't evil, but they are a bit in over their heads. According to the lore, they possess more knowledge of the Tenno than what is generally known to the rest of the plebians, and that just goes to show that this is their serious passion in life. While I believe that they, as a collective, are also very much dedicated to a pursuit of all truths in every aspect, the Tenno are what drives them to maintain their order.

They aren't looking to change the world; they just want to understand.

[(PSN)AngelShur]

4 minutes ago, Telluric said:

I love the Arbiters of Hexis a great deal, and from what I've managed to observe from them, for all of the airs that they put on, they really don't know anything about the Tenno at all. This is why they are rather obsessed with them, to the point where they are disregarding a widely-accepted belief that the Tenno are warriors, and are trying to come up with something else to satisfy themselves. 

I'm sure that their intentions aren't evil, but they are a bit in over their heads. According to the lore, they possess more knowledge of the Tenno than what is generally known to the rest of the plebians, and that just goes to show that this is their serious passion in life. While I believe that they, as a collective, are also very much dedicated to a pursuit of all truths in every aspect, the Tenno are what drives them to maintain their order.

They aren't looking to change the world; they just want to understand.

Stalker.... is an Arbiter of Hexis confirmed! 

[Kaotyke]

30 minutes ago, (PS4)Akuma_Asura_ said:

Oh I didn't make up the quote in tho op that's from the wiki , & they probably got it from the game, so idk about "nothing else"

I know, and I stand by what I meant.

"Nothing else" can imply a lot of things when you compare to a whole empire.

It includes: Culture (which also includes Arts, philosphy, education, life-styles...), Technology (To this day, it seems the Orokin Technology is still unparalleled), Leadership...

This "Nothing else" is actually a LOT of things, and the Arbiters wants the Tenno to surpass the Orokin, so they want the Tenno to be better than the Orokin in every way. Thats a lot to live up to.

[Alma_Elma]

31 minutes ago, Venom-Snake said:

I know, and I stand by what I meant.

"Nothing else" can imply a lot of things when you compare to a whole empire.

It includes: Culture (which also includes Arts, philosphy, education, life-styles...), Technology (To this day, it seems the Orokin Technology is still unparalleled), Leadership...

This "Nothing else" is actually a LOT of things, and the Arbiters wants the Tenno to surpass the Orokin, so they want the Tenno to be better than the Orokin in every way. Thats a lot to live up to.

Considering our most recent invention is an automatic crossbow that still uses tech from Earth, I think we aren't making any technological strides anytime soon.

Then again, in my defense: we destroyed the Orokin Empire, so zing.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Alma_Elma

[Kaotyke]

Just now, Alma_Elma said:

Considering our most recent invention is an automatic crossbow that still uses tech from Earth, I think we aren't making any technological strides anytime soon.

And that can fire multiple arrows like an automatic gun, be strong enough to pin fully armored enemies to walls...

And how is Luka btw?

[ArchangelusAlpharius]

14 minutes ago, Alma_Elma said:

Considering our most recent invention is an automatic crossbow that still uses tech from Earth, I think we aren't making any technological strides anytime soon.

Then again, in my defense: we destroyed the Orokin Empire, so zing.

That very effective crossbow is basically a ceremonial weapon though. We use it for fun. Its just we found the blueprints to this toy again. 

Edited May 24, 2016 by ArchangelusAlpharius

[Alma_Elma]

5 minutes ago, Venom-Snake said:

And that can fire multiple arrows like an automatic gun, be strong enough to pin fully armored enemies to walls...

Considering the Grinner did it first with their own standard-issue harpoon gun, doesn't seem to be a noteworthy achievement. I think all we did was basically change the firing mechanism to full auto.

 

5 minutes ago, Venom-Snake said:

And how is Luka btw?

Ohh you know. Still married to his domineering snake wife.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Alma_Elma

[(PSN)Fac3kick3r_lolz]

18 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Hmmm. 

 

I used to be in with the Arbiters. After Second Dream, I realised that they knew nothing of what I/my Operator truly was, and I lost....esteem for them? The revelation of the true form of the Tenno, and the awakened memories, led to a renewed interest in Earth, and I courted New Loka. In effect, the shocking ignorance of the Arbiters forced me to realise that they knew little of what they were talking about, and that whenever they said 'potential' they meant 'power'. I now think that they're just a sect whose beliefs lead them to align with the Tenno, hoping to harness us, trying to encourage the Tenno to stop thinking of themselves purely as warriors, and perhaps start thinking of themselves as conquerors, queens and princes.

 

 

I just want them to cough up a Telos Nikana which almost approaches the level of murderosity of the Nikana Prime.

"Traitor! Have fun with your so called "purity"." - A honorable honorful honor bound honor honor guided honor Arbiter.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Honestly I want a Telos Galatine or Telos Gram. Or maybe create a new weapon. However, we'll likely get a Telos boltace because ooo it matches the other weapons and completes the set.                                                                  

Edited May 25, 2016 by (PS4)Fac3kick3r_lolz

[(PSN)Silverback73]

20 hours ago, Venom-Snake said:

Nope.

The Tenno's "Shattered history" is the fact that we were once the Shinning Hope of the Orokin and the Sol System in the Old War, and when it ended the Tenno betrayed the Orokin and send the system into chaos because of that, then left.

The Arbiters believe the Tenno can become more than just warriors and surpass the Orokin in every way. Nothing else.

REALLY????!!!!!

The Orokin were corrupt, power-hungry galactic oppressors with a penchant for enslaving other races and cultures.

They secretly dedicated a ship to military science experiments and subjected CHILDREN to void energy.

Why?

Because their "Sentient" super weapon designed to further their conquering reach woke up and turned against them.

Once they found the children could be weaponized as dreaming, immortal child-soldiers, they promptly enslaved THEM.

Low and behold, these children wanted to be more than just tools of war after they saved the Orokin Empire, but the ruling elite saw them as nothing more than the newest potential threat.

Luckily, Lotus had a vast network and was able to mobilize the Tenno and preemptively strike so that they wouldn't be slaughtered.

LOL @ your viewpoint on Tenno being betrayers.

 

 

[Kaotyke]

49 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

---

Completely missed the point.

Can you say that Germany became greater than it was after Hitler? Did it mean that they still use the "racial purity" that the Nazis used, but to a greater extreme? No. The country rose beyond that, from the ashes of the WWII, it became a great country again, but they did not repeat their mistakes, they learned from them. They SURPASSED the old Germany.

To surpass something doesnt only mean that you will be better at it. The country used slavery? You found a way to abort it and make the lives of all greater, the slaves are not slaves anymore, they are free citizens with all rights and duties. You surpassed the old system.

The Tenno ARE betrayers, but the system they betrayed was unjust, corrupt, it had to go. The leaders and the people saw them as saviors, there was a measure of trust for the populance, they didnt know what they were, they were scared of them, but they were the reason the War was over. And at the ceremony... they killed the leadership, corrupt leadership, but the leadership none the less, without leaders to guide them, the system fell into chaos and we left it to its own devices. How many innocents died because of our innaction? The MOA synthesis explains things from the view of a child. How they had to hide or be killed/slaved by the Grineer.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

1 hour ago, Venom-Snake said:

Completely missed the point.

Can you say that Germany became greater than it was after Hitler? Did it mean that they still use the "racial purity" that the Nazis used, but to a greater extreme? No. The country rose beyond that, from the ashes of the WWII, it became a great country again, but they did not repeat their mistakes, they learned from them. They SURPASSED the old Germany.

To surpass something doesnt only mean that you will be better at it. The country used slavery? You found a way to abort it and make the lives of all greater, the slaves are not slaves anymore, they are free citizens with all rights and duties. You surpassed the old system.

The Tenno ARE betrayers, but the system they betrayed was unjust, corrupt, it had to go. The leaders and the people saw them as saviors, there was a measure of trust for the populance, they didnt know what they were, they were scared of them, but they were the reason the War was over. And at the ceremony... they killed the leadership, corrupt leadership, but the leadership none the less, without leaders to guide them, the system fell into chaos and we left it to its own devices. How many innocents died because of our innaction? The MOA synthesis explains things from the view of a child. How they had to hide or be killed/slaved by the Grineer.

I'm sorry, but no, you are blurring two separate comversations here.

 

If you have credible, accurate information that a parent, adult, or *insert authority figure/superior here* that you should be able to trust is about to KILL YOU, and you act preemptively,  it is self-defense or self-preservation.

The "betrayal" occurred the moment Orokin Leaders *betrayed* that trust.

Discussing fault and the ramifications and reasons why the Tenno children went into hiding as the Orokin Empire collapsed is a separate topic.

 

Edited May 25, 2016 by (PS4)Silverback73

[Kaotyke]

Just now, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

I'm sorry, but no, you are blurring two separate comversations here.

 

If you have credible, accurate information that a parent, adult, or *insert authority figure/superior here* that you should be able tobtrust is about to KILL YOU, and you act preemptively,  it is self-defense or self-preservation.(1)

The "betrayal" occurred the moment Orokin Leaders *betrayed* that trust.

Discussing fault and the ramifications and reasons why the Tenno children went into hiding as the Orokin Empire collapsed is a separate topic.(2)

 

(1) We dont know if the Orokin was going to pull a "Kill switch" on the Tenno after the ceremony or soon after.

Thats is speculation on your part and nothing else.

(2) You said and I quote

3 hours ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

LOL @ your viewpoint on Tenno being betrayers.

You brought up the topic on the betrayal. And disagreed because of your speculation above.

If the soldiers of a country make a coup, kill all leaders from the President to the Mayors and then leave the country to its own devices, they betray the trust of the population they were supposed to protect. The fault of the collapse and what happened afterwards IS the Tenno's.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

3 hours ago, Venom-Snake said:

(1) We dont know if the Orokin was going to pull a "Kill switch" on the Tenno after the ceremony or soon after.

Thats is speculation on your part and nothing else.

(2) You said and I quote

You brought up the topic on the betrayal. And disagreed because of your speculation above.

If the soldiers of a country make a coup, kill all leaders from the President to the Mayors and then leave the country to its own devices, they betray the trust of the population they were supposed to protect. The fault of the collapse and what happened afterwards IS the Tenno's.

"Soldiers"...an equal, if not more extreme assumption.

Children subjected to experimentation and used as weapons from a forced dream-state because normal existence would drive them insane or kill them.

I'm sure the ruling Elite used whatever psychological (i.e. brainwashing) techniques were necessary to make the Tenno feel like they mattered beyond their need as weapons, but Margulis knew better.

They weren't part of the normal Orokin "army", so the coup analogy is total bunk.

What happened after the Lotus sent them into hiding was tragic, but blaming these children for the collapse and not the corrupt Orokin Elite for making yet another fatefully destructive decision?  Come on!

My assumption could be wrong, but DE has stated that the Lotus really IS our benevolent mother, doing what was needed to protect us.

The suggestion that her Sentient Directive led her to use us as a massive, system-wide kill shot to bring down the Empire  and an unsuspecting ruling class that really WAS just giving us a ceremony so the populace could celebrate runs contrary to what DE has stated about Lotus, though it would be intriguing as hell because it would divide the community.

It's a lose-lose choice.  Do nothing and die.  Kill the elite and be vilified.

Enjoying our debate.  Thank You.  Your arguments are eloquent!

Edited May 25, 2016 by (PS4)Silverback73

[Kaotyke]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

"Soldiers"...an equal, if not more extreme assumption.

Children subjected to experimentation and used as weapons from a forced dream-state because normal existence would drive them insane or kill them.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

They weren't part of the normal Orokin "army", so the coup analogy is total bunk.

Its a comparison, and it makes sense in context:

As far as the populance knew, the Tenno were Orokin soldiers, elite, unmatched soldiers, where a single one could slay hundreds to thousands, but they were known to be under the Orokin's thumb. So, yes. They were viewed as soldiers of the Orokin, loyal to the Orokin, their origins and true nature unkown to them.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

I'm sure the ruling Elite used whatever psychological (i.e. brainwashing) techniques were necessary to make the Tenno feel like they mattered beyond their need as weapons, but Margulis knew better.

I do not doubt that, but it is possible that Lotus was able to reverse that or Margulis made Transference impossible to brainwash the Tenno. Even if the rulling body of the Orokin DID brainwash them, the only possibilities that I can see are that:

1) Lotus was able to un-do it.

2) Transference made such thing impossible or very hard.

Or, if there wasnt any brainwashing involved:

The Orokin tried to make the Tenno work for them willing, by giving them a purpose: Turn their afliction to protect the Origin System.

One of the options in the dialog at the end of the Second Dream implies heavily that the Tenno were very greatfull to Margulis work to make them able to interact with the outside world by using Transference, and from some of her lines: she was treated them like the children they were supposed to be, almost motherly. And then the Orokin killed her, they did not forget, and left that grudge to fester.

Might be a culmination of a lot of things: They accepted to work for the Orokin to get out of stasis but remembered what they did to Margulis, and by serving the Orokin they saw exactly what they were doing to the Origin System, we can see how they lived in comfort and the rest of the people was living in a "growing wasteland" we saw in the Crewman Synthesis, how readly they throw away others for their own sake in the Eviscerator and Guardsman Synthesis, "And so you became Tenno, serving the Orokin, but bound by honor"

The Orokin extended a carrot at the end of the stick for a hungry horse, but the horse, who followed the carrot, did not forget that it was that same stick that hit it so many times.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

What happened after the Lotus sent them into hiding was tragic, but blaming these children for the collapse and not the corrupt Orokin Elite for making yet another fatefully destructive decision?  Come on!

Maybe I should elaborate:

The fault of the current state of the System does not lie with only the Tenno, they were the catalyst, the fall was likely going to happen sooner or later. The fault lies with a lot of people. But the orokin were the origin of it all.

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

My assumption could be wrong, but DE has stated that the Lotus really IS our benevolent mother, doing what was needed to protect us.

The suggestion that her Sentient Directive led her to use us as a massive, system-wide kill shot to bring down the Empire  and an unsuspecting ruling class that really WAS just giving us a ceremony so the populace could celebrate runs contrary to what DE has stated about Lotus, though it would be intriguing as hell because it would divide the community.

She IS benevolent. To US. It is VERY likely that she only cares for the Origin System because we care for it as well. We vowed to protect it and its people, then so will she. But the she put us to sleep in that epic power nap. We dont know if it was forced or voluntary. She has gaps in her memory as well from what we can see in Hidden Messages, so maybe she went to sleep as too?

Too many questions still, maybe The War Within will answer more.

Spoiler

And likely GIVE more.

 

Edited May 25, 2016 by Venom-Snake