Mag Rework Feedback [Post Update 18.13]

[tnccs215]

3 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

Shotguns (along with all multishot) were already bugged and the beam weapon fix made them do 1/25 the listed DPS, which can also be considered a bug.  Don't complain about nerfs; report the bugs in the proper forum.  

1/25? Funny thing, they are supposed to do 1/4, or 25% ... Wonder if thats were the bug is.

[Edit]: 50 pages! Wohoo!

Edited July 24, 2016 by tnccs215

[felixsylvaris]

Mag was funny caster frame. And to some degree she is playable now.

Pull is good since it works on many targets, opens to ground attacks, and have chance for orbs for all

Crush is yoru standard ult.

Polarize is good for rapid shield refresh, how good it is for debuff hard tot tell,

There may be problem with Polarize and level scaling. Classic bombard has 500 armour. Depleting 1000 of that is quite good. Level 60 Bombard will have 3500 armour and deplating 1000 of that is more like whatever. I dont like frames which powers do nothing.

It would be better if Magnetize strip % of enemy armour so it will scale somehow.

For low levels we dont need magnetize anyway.

Magnetize has problem of Nulifiers, whats the point of Magnet orb if at any point Null will spawn and pop it?

Also description says about ensnearing enemies inside. Enemies go in and out and dont look ensneared.

Edited July 25, 2016 by felixsylvaris

[EinheriarJudith]

only issue ive had so far is with magnetize. there is a huge flaw with both bullet attractor (i will forever know it is this) and absorb(nyx ability) and now Amesha heal orb and that is being unable to shoot other enemies in its proximity the best solution should have been to only absorb the gunfire of enemies and the shrapnel from polarize. ally fire should be completely unaffected/pass through. the whole point of bullet attractor was to stop bullet masacres like being faced with a bunch of full revved up heavy gunners.

Edited July 25, 2016 by EinheriarJudith

[(XBOX)Ivan of Jupiter]

3 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

only issue ive had so far is with magnetize. there is a huge flaw with both bullet attractor (i will forever know it is this) and absorb(nyx ability) and now Amesha heal orb and that is being unable to shoot other enemies in its proximity the best solution should have been to only absorb the gunfire of enemies and the shrapnel from polarize. ally fire should be completely unaffected/pass through. the whole point of bullet attractor was to stop bullet masacres like being faced with a bunch of full revved up heavy gunners.

I will admit this ^ is a much needed QoL adjustment. On a side note certain abilities get drawn in too. I main Nova. Was playing with a Mag. The Mag did what a Mag does, can't fault that. But I was running an AMD build. Antimatter Drop gets drawn in and just lazily swirls around until it connects to something or the ability ends. This process also often leads to a bug where AMD just hangs in the air and no amount of contact will set it off. Not only that but if you're near a Mag bubble, firing at AMD is pointless. 

All of this is a problem even when it's not in the bubble. It could be a meter or two away from the bubble but it'll still go wonky.

[EinheriarJudith]

15 hours ago, Rawbeard said:

[removed by mod]

this is not constructive and most of us love mag and the new changes but tweaks here and there to make abilities more friendly are welcome. git gud is biased use by people who fail to understand or see the point of view of others.

Edited July 26, 2016 by [DE]Taylor
removed rude quoted comment

[Rawbeard]

the only view I see is "she can't oneshot corpus, and her abilities do not work on the other factions and she can't do anything". that is ludicrous, so the only reasonable response is git gud. before you pressed 2 to win against corpus. now you press 2 to win. period. I am sich of hearing this "my warframe got nerfed" BS. people CANNOT be that dense.

[EinheriarJudith]

2 minutes ago, Rawbeard said:

the only view I see is "she can't oneshot corpus, and her abilities do not work on the other factions and she can't do anything". that is ludicrous, so the only reasonable response is git gud. before you pressed 2 to win against corpus. now you press 2 to win. period. I am sich of hearing this "my warframe got nerfed" BS. people CANNOT be that dense.

there is always going to be that bunch who cant adapt or like the cheese methods and come into the forums to post their discontent but that wont change the fact that she is crazy powerful especially now since she is also good vs grineer. we will all be glad the day DE removes map wipe tactics.

[malekas]

29 minutes ago, Rawbeard said:

the only view I see is "she can't oneshot corpus, and her abilities do not work on the other factions and she can't do anything". that is ludicrous, so the only reasonable response is git gud. before you pressed 2 to win against corpus. now you press 2 to win. period. I am sich of hearing this "my warframe got nerfed" BS. people CANNOT be that dense.

Thanks to recent nerf you can't even press 2 to win anymore. Now all of her abilites work like "press X to.....hold on let me press x again........and again..........and again......maybe something will die eventlually...........maybe not."

 

Seriously, someone at DE must have a personal grudge against Mag. Anytime a player finds a good use for Mag, DE nerfs it.

[EinheriarJudith]

9 minutes ago, malekas said:

Thanks to recent nerf you can't even press 2 to win anymore. Now all of her abilites work like "press X to.....hold on let me press x again........and again..........and again......maybe something will die eventlually...........maybe not."

 

Seriously, someone at DE must have a personal grudge against Mag. Anytime a player finds a good use for Mag, DE nerfs it.

what are you talking about? things like gpull for example are little more than a gimick that shows the actual problem with looting. mag is crazy useful always has been. before she may have not been the best to use against grineer but that didnt stop her from CC or replenishing team shields she is still the total package. magnetize just need to be tweaked to only absorb enemy gunfire.

Edited July 25, 2016 by EinheriarJudith

[tnccs215]

12 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

magnetize just need to be tweaked to only absorb enemy gunfire.

Sorry, have to disagree on that. Magnetize's true strength lies in allowing you to power up the bubble, because even though enemy damage can be deadly to you, enemy health is orders of magnitude greater than ours, which means that their damage will always be neglectible. Making it not absorb friendly damage will be useful for destroying enemies behind the bubble, but it will make magnetize much, much weaker by reducing both the DoT and the explosion damage tremendously.

Quite personally, I think not being able to shoot enemies through the bubble is a fair trade-off for the buffing you are able to do-- or, better saying, will be, once the bugs and unnecessary limitations such as multishot are fixed. However, if you think that it is not, many other options that allow both charging the bubble and shooting through it are possible, such as aimed shots ignoring the bubble, while from-the-hip ones charge it.

One way or another, making it only absorbe enemy damage would be a mistake.

[malekas]

44 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

what are you talking about? things like gpull for example are little more than a gimick that shows the actual problem with looting. mag is crazy useful always has been. before she may have not been the best to use against grineer but that didnt stop her from CC or replenishing team shields she is still the total package. magnetize just need to be tweaked to only absorb enemy gunfire.

Her CC is terrible. Pull is hard to follow up on because it flings enemies halfway across the map. Crush is more likely to get you killed because of the super long casting time and Mag being squishy. Magnetize only CCs one enemy at the cost of blocking your allies shots (wasn't a problem before the nerf because Magnetize would actually kill things).

 

Greedy Pull helping allies - nerfed

Shield Polarize being good against Corpus - nerfed (rightfully so, but they went too far)

Magnetize dealing good damage and being useful against bosses - nerfed

 

If you find a good use for Mag now, better not let anyone know. If DE finds out it'll get nerfed too.

Edited July 26, 2016 by malekas

[tnccs215]

2 minutes ago, malekas said:

Her CC is terrible. Pull is hard to follow up on because it flings enemies halfway across the map, and Crush is more likely to get you killed because of the super long casting time and Mag being squishy. Magnetize only CCs one enemy at the cost of blocking your allies shots (wasn't a problem before the nerf because Magnetize would actually kill things).

 

Greedy Pull helping allies - nerfed

Shield Polarize being good against Corpus - nerfed (rightfully so, but they went too far)

Magnetize dealing good damage and being useful against bosses - nerfed

 

If you find a good use for Mag now, better not let anyone know. If DE finds out it'll get nerfed too.

Greedy Pull was nerfed due to its abuse on compulsory farming. She was ensuring energy to frames who shouldn't be in a position to get it. Her Nerf was a necessity, and I support(ed) it. You can argue it no longer is necessary, but even that is open for quite the debate.

Shield Polarize's Nerf did not went too far. With the right build, it can completely clean high level enemies of armor, and honestly, no one cares about shielding when you have toxin damage. Maybe it could also give a percentual damage to defenses together with the fixed value it does now, but even then...

Magnetize's "good damage" was a bug, and I saw it coming-- hell, it was me who found out what the bug was. Yes, ignoring crits and multishot killed many weapons, and the fact that beam weapons went from being too strong to too weak is quite the bummer, but it is a bug, and it belongs to the bug section of the forums. And regardless of all this, I'm still able to properly use Magnetize to completely shred enemies in pieces.

Mag may require some tweaking and, above all, bug fixes. But in no way is she useless, and in no way do bugs and so excuse a petty "oh the devs are so mean" mentality.

Criticize her all you want. But ignoring her virtues and demonizing devs is as ridiculous as it is unfounded.

 

[felixsylvaris]

2 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Shield Polarize's Nerf did not went too far. With the right build, it can completely clean high level enemies of armor, and honestly, no one cares about shielding when you have toxin damage. Maybe it could also give a percentual damage to defenses together with the fixed value it does now, but even then...

Is that true? What is good build? Is 250% power good or not even start. Stripping 1000 armour from lv 20 enemy is nice. But from lv 60... enemies then should have 3500 armour and taking away 1000 is not as significant, as levels progress it is getting worse.

On low level striping armor is not even needed.

Maybe % value (like 25% base) would be better and scale better to insane levels.

[EinheriarJudith]

42 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Sorry, have to disagree on that. Magnetize's true strength lies in allowing you to power up the bubble, because even though enemy damage can be deadly to you, enemy health is orders of magnitude greater than ours, which means that their damage will always be neglectible. Making it not absorb friendly damage will be useful for destroying enemies behind the bubble, but it will make magnetize much, much weaker by reducing both the DoT and the explosion damage tremendously.

Quite personally, I think not being able to shoot enemies through the bubble is a fair trade-off for the buffing you are able to do-- or, better saying, will be, once the bugs and unnecessary limitations such as multishot are fixed. However, if you think that it is not, many other options that allow both charging the bubble and shooting through it are possible, such as aimed shots ignoring the bubble, while from-the-hip ones charge it.

One way or another, making it only absorbe enemy damage would be a mistake.

magnetize pull force is really bad not only that it leaves huge pockets of areas you cannot shoot. imo its definitely not ok. as i said in my previous post the whole point of bullet attractor was to prevent you getting filled with holes from any direction. its now turned into the mag version of nyx's absorb. we already have an ability like that we dont need another and like a previous poster said it messes with AMD

Edit: frames with that same ability? Nyx, Mag, and Amesha.

Edited July 26, 2016 by EinheriarJudith

[tnccs215]

7 minutes ago, felixsylvaris said:

Is that true? What is good build? Is 250% power good or not even start. Stripping 1000 armour from lv 20 enemy is nice. But from lv 60... enemies then should have 3500 armour and taking away 1000 is not as significant, as levels progress it is getting worse.

On low level striping armor is not even needed.

Maybe % value (like 25% base) would be better and scale better to insane levels.

185% power strength and Fracturing Crush. Go to page 43 to get an explanation (lots of quotes on it, so I can't integrily quote it here, and I'm on my phone so I can't do any advanced editing)

 

[tnccs215]

21 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

magnetize pull force is really bad not only that it leaves huge pockets of areas you cannot shoot. imo its definitely not ok. as i said in my previous post the whole point of bullet attractor was to prevent you getting filled with holes from any direction. its now turned into the mag version of nyx's absorb. we already have an ability like that we dont need another and like a previous poster said it messes with AMD

Edit: frames with that same ability? Nyx, Mag, and Amesha.

First, I can't bring an Amesha to any on-foot mission, so its existence is pretty much irrelevant for the case. Second, You cannot compare Nyx's absorb and Magnetize. Both are visually similar, and partially functionally similar in that both absorve damage and explode. But the similarities end there. Nyx is unable to do anything while using her one absorb bubble, while Magnetize can be deployed multiple times on several places while leaving Mag both sensible to damage and free to roam around. Magnetize possesses immediate benefits since it's DoT can be incredibly strong. And you think its pull is weak? Well, you have a very good Wide CC ability to ensure enemies do not fight against it.

Magnetize works as a localized choke-point defense and offense measure. It grants tactical protection while also benefiting from any damage, and channeling it into a nuke at the end.

Absorb, on the other hand, is just a chargeable nuke. Sure, it can give some local protection, but that's it.

It is incredibly foolish to even consider the idea that Absorb and Magnetize are redundant. They are similar, yes, but radically different in their roles.

And, of course, if you find the pull a bit too weak even though you have a CC ability that virtually nullifies any fight against it, you can ask for a stronger pull, not something like the bubble not absorbing friendly damage. Because, believe in me, that will be much harder on you than you may think.

[EDIT]:Seriously, the fact that you even put Amesha in that list means that you are deeply mistaking visual similarity with role similarity. Just because it looks the same doesn't mean it is the same. And just because it works vaguely similarly in some aspects, doesn't mean it is equal.

The world isn't that simple.

Edited July 26, 2016 by tnccs215

[EinheriarJudith]

11 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

First, I can't bring an Amesha to any on-foot mission, so its existence is pretty much irrelevant for the case. Second, You cannot compare Nyx's absorb and Magnetize. Both are visually similar, and partially functionally similar in that both absorve damage and explode. But the similarities end there. Nyx is unable to do anything while using her one absorb bubble, while Magnetize can be deployed multiple times on several places while leaving Mag both sensible to damage and free to roam around. Magnetize possesses immediate benefits since it's DoT can be incredibly strong. And you think its pull is weak? Well, you have a very good Wide CC ability to ensure enemies do not fight against it.

Magnetize works as a localized choke-point defense and offense measure. It grants tactical protection while also benefiting from any damage, and channeling it into a nuke at the end.

Absorb, on the other hand, is just a chargeable nuke. Sure, it can give some protection, but that's it.

It is incredibly foolish to even consider the idea that Absorb and Magnetize are redundant. They are similar, yes, but not radically different in their roles.

And, of course, if you find the pull a bit too weak even though you have a CC ability that virtually nullifies any fight against it, you can ask for a stronger pull, not something like the bubble not absorbing friendly damage. Because, believe in me, that will be much harder on you than you may think.

mission type has no relevance. they can be compared as all 3 absorb enemy and friendly fire and 2 of them explode. wether or not one remains mobile makes little difference. amesha and mags ability allows them to be mobile while it can be cast multiple times in different places. i will stand by my comparison. im not going to go into a map use bullet attractor and constantly use pull to MAYBE pull them into its center. while the idea is nice blocking my team from doing anything short of spaming warframe abilities since that is about all they can do is counter productive. this is a team player game. i have absolutely no issues with her other changes aside from the passive lets be serious that was maybe a joke on de part but making combat dull for my other teammates doesnt cut it. its the same reason people dont like limbo it interferes with team play no matter how useful. we will not agree on this and thats ok.

Edited July 26, 2016 by EinheriarJudith

[tnccs215]

44 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

mission type has no relevance. they can be compared as all 3 absorb enemy and friendly fire and 2 of them explode. wether or not one remains mobile makes little difference. amesha and mags ability allows them to be mobile while it can be cast multiple times in different places. i will stand by my comparison. im not going to go into a map use bullet attractor and constantly use pull to MAYBE pull them into its center. while the idea is nice blocking my team from doing anything short of spaming warframe abilities since that is about all they can do is counter productive. this is a team player game. i have absolutely no issues with her other changes aside from the passive lets be serious that was maybe a joke on de part but making combat dull for my other teammates doesnt cut it. its the same reason people dont like limbo it interferes with team play no matter how useful. we will not agree on this and thats ok.

Who the hell is talking about mission type.

How does staying mobile means little. The fact that you can run around and do other stuff, as well as cast more bubbles, makes a world of difference. Saying that it doesn't is being down right shortsighted.

How can you even compare a healing ability with Magnetize, even if both have a vaguely defensive aspect. Again, vaguely similar =/= equal, and the fact that Magnetize damages while Amesha's 2 heals makes both abilties borderline incomparable.

Plus, one is an archwing. In this case, they shouldn't be compared not only because they aren't similar, but because they can't even coexist.

Additionally, saying that your team stands impotent against enemies behind a bubble is simply not true. Their fire also contributes to the bubble. Team work includes making all work in unison, and that means some toe-stepping is necessary. Limbo doesn't allow any form of fighting, but Magnetize allows. So, again, you cannot argue that their vague similarities mean both share the same problems.

Also, I truly do not see the problem of her passive. It is very useful and makes sense according to her theme. I truly don't understand the reaction many had.

 

To end, I do not have problems disagreeing with people. But when you stand by things that are wrong, invalid, irrelevant, or both, you can sure as hell know I'll try to argue out of that line of thought. Unless you don't want to continue to engage in that, in which case, I'll simply stop insisting. I'd just be an harrass otherwise.

[EinheriarJudith]

23 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

To end, I do not have problems disagreeing with people. But when you stand by things that are wrong, invalid, irrelevant, or both, you can sure as hell know I'll try to argue out of that line of thought. Unless you don't want to continue to engage in that, in which case, I'll simply stop insisting. I'd just be an harrass otherwise.

sorry my opinion differs from yours. and like i said we will not agree on this matter and that is fine.

[DeMonkey]

2 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

Edit: frames with that same ability? Nyx, Mag, and Amesha.

Rhino, Excal, Hydroid. Each have a forward charge. As does Zephyr, all hers is is aimed.

Excal, Mirage. Both blind everything in sight.

Mesa, Trinity both have reflective DR. Sure the details are different, but you don't care about the details if you think Nyx, Mag and Amesha all share an ability.

Frost, Ember. #1 ability is a projectile of their respective elements.

Ivara, Loki and Ash turn invisible.

Nekros, Oberon. Each have a targeted #1 of their respective theme.

Want me to continue? The only thing similar about Nyx, Mag and Amesha's abilities are the mechanics. That's all. And if it's soley the mechanics that make an ability the ''same'' then clearly all of the ones I've just listed are the ''same''.

So you can drop that comparison.

Edited July 26, 2016 by DeMonkey

[EinheriarJudith]

3 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Rhino, Excal, Hydroid. Each have a forward charge. As does Zephyr, all hers is is aimed.

Excal, Mirage. Both blind everything in sight.

Mesa, Trinity both have reflective DR. Sure the details are different, but you don't care about the details if you think Nyx, Mag and Amesha all share an ability.

Frost, Ember. #1 ability is a projectile of their respective elements.

Ivara, Loki and Ash turn invisible.

Nekros, Oberon. Each have a targeted #1 of their respective theme.

Want me to continue? The only thing similar about Nyx, Mag and Amesha's abilities are the mechanics. That's all. And if it's soley the mechanics that make an ability the ''same'' then clearly all of the ones I've just listed are the ''same''.

So you can drop that comparison.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 Into a pit

Filled with Spikes 

 

of all your comparisons name all the ones that trivialize game play, this isnt just about similarities. prism's blind trivialized gameplay and DE changed it. so please do continue.

[malekas]

2 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

Greedy Pull was nerfed due to its abuse on compulsory farming. She was ensuring energy to frames who shouldn't be in a position to get it. Her Nerf was a necessity, and I support(ed) it. You can argue it no longer is necessary, but even that is open for quite the debate.

Shield Polarize's Nerf did not went too far. With the right build, it can completely clean high level enemies of armor, and honestly, no one cares about shielding when you have toxin damage. Maybe it could also give a percentual damage to defenses together with the fixed value it does now, but even then...

Magnetize's "good damage" was a bug, and I saw it coming-- hell, it was me who found out what the bug was. Yes, ignoring crits and multishot killed many weapons, and the fact that beam weapons went from being too strong to too weak is quite the bummer, but it is a bug, and it belongs to the bug section of the forums. And regardless of all this, I'm still able to properly use Magnetize to completely shred enemies in pieces.

Mag may require some tweaking and, above all, bug fixes. But in no way is she useless, and in no way do bugs and so excuse a petty "oh the devs are so mean" mentality.

Criticize her all you want. But ignoring her virtues and demonizing devs is as ridiculous as it is unfounded.

 

Virtues? There are many frames that can anything she can, and a lot better.

 

Damage? I can take Mesa, Ash, Equinox, Banshee, Excalibur, and others, and deal more damage than Mag could ever hope to. Even if you take Magnetize's damage multipler into account. I could take Banshee's Sonar, Rhino's Roar, or Nova's MPrime, and get good damage increases to everything around me, not just one target, and without blocking my allies shots.

 

CC? Mirage, Excal, Nyx, Loki, Vauban, Firequake Ember, Stomp Rhino, Frost, and others, do a MUCH better job of CC than Mag getting killed while trying to cast Crush.

 

The only thing Mag can do that other frames can't is to permanently remove armor. But at higher levels it just takes too many casts of Polarize to do this. I could just kill the enemy by the time Mag removes their armor.

 

Mag needs more than tweaking, she needs another rework. But so far it looks like DE is content in the fact that they made another Hydroid.

[MagPrime]

2 minutes ago, malekas said:

Virtues? There are many frames that can anything she can, and a lot better.

 

Damage? I can take Mesa, Ash, Equinox, Banshee, Excalibur, and others, and deal more damage than Mag could ever hope to. Even if you take Magnetize's damage multipler into account. I could take Banshee's Sonar, Rhino's Roar, or Nova's MPrime, and get good damage increases to everything around me, not just one target, and without blocking my allies shots.

 

CC? Mirage, Excal, Nyx, Loki, Vauban, Firequake Ember, Stomp Rhino, Frost, and others, do a MUCH better job of CC than Mag getting killed while trying to cast Crush.

 

The only thing Mag can do that other frames can't is to permanently remove armor. But at higher levels it just takes too many casts of Polarize to do this. I could just kill the enemy by the time Mag removes their armor.

 

Mag needs more than tweaking, she needs another rework. But so far it looks like DE is content in the fact that they made another Hydroid.

So you're saying that you enjoy the meta.  Congrats.

[EinheriarJudith]

1 minute ago, Noamuth said:

So you're saying that you enjoy the meta.  Congrats.

i dont see where he said he enjoys meta please try not to assume the point he is conveying

[DeMonkey]

Just now, EinheriarJudith said:

of all your comparisons name all the ones that trivialize game play, this isnt just about similarities. prism's blind trivialized gameplay and DE changed it. so please do continue.

xD

What on earth are you talking about? You have no idea what you're saying. Are you hoping if you derail your argument enough people will forget what it was all about, and you'll claim some small victory or something. Because that's what I'm getting both from here, and one of your earlier posts.

Actually read my response to you. Notice how not once do I mention trivialising, or how effective the abilities are? 

No, I just think it's utterly stupid for you to bring up how ''we already have an ability like that, we don't need another'' when that's blatantly, laughably false.