Mirage Revisions Feedback [Post Update 18.13]

[shootaman777]

1 minute ago, WASPGOD said:

can u imagine how many formas it would take to fix it lol

I think Mirage is well past the point where even Formas can redeem her fourth ability.  Hmmm.... do you have any ideas as to what can be changed to make this work, in addition to reducing the cast time of Prism?  

[-Temp0-]

48 minutes ago, shootaman777 said:

For Mirage, a blind build only requires an Orokin Reactor, not even a Forma.  Other than that, I completely agree with you.  However, you stated problems and called for reworks more so than actually proposing a new solution.  So, I would ask you: what do you think should be the new Mirage?  

That's not even close to being true. For that kind of blind to even work, you needed to spam it. Ideally, you also need a cunning drift. Also flow, both efficiency mods + quick thinking just to be safe(er) when something goes wrong. I'm always lazy to forma things, but even so I had 2 forma on her.

In the light of the recent idiocy however, I'm not gonna bother to forma anything beyond said 1-2 formas and that even in times like now with x2 affinity weekends.

Quote

Essentially, what your rework idea has in mind is to make the third ability's 'in the dark mode' improved while motionless, almost to the tier of invisibility for a 'brief moment', and that for Sleight of Hand, something needs to be figured out, such as by with your ideas that help teammates and objectives to make the ability relatively useful (which allows for multiple useful uses of Sleight of Hand on the same area).  Does that sound about right?  

Yes. Being invisible while stationary can make up for that prism annihilation as well as making "shadow mode" usefull for once. Because let's be honest, no one uses it just like no one used night form equinox before it received the augment. It's just not viable. At all. It barely works as intended. With that, we'll need a clear visual indication what is shadow and what is not, similar to equinox's visual effect on her 4 when your vision is changing. 

Sleight of hands should 1. affect almost every surface, and especially things that enemies can interract with like hacking consoles. 2. on contact with it, it should also blind them for a short period of time 3. Maybe affect warframes too in a sense where if enemies getting too close (in a melee range) it should do the same, blind for a short period of time or stun or something.

I doubt any kind of rework will save prism or make it viable again, but making it one hand action and changing animation completely can at least let DE save the face and say that it is at least working, forget that LoS is at the very least dumb as hell since it doesn't work properly but meh.

[Waspyeh]

3 hours ago, shootaman777 said:

I think Mirage is well past the point where even Formas can redeem her fourth ability.  Hmmm.... do you have any ideas as to what can be changed to make this work, in addition to reducing the cast time of Prism?  

cant come up with any ideas. The base casting ability is so slow that you would need natural talent to even survive

[PETI258]

7 hours ago, shootaman777 said:

Essentially, what you're describing here is that Mirage is still very useful, just as an independent Warframe (ignoring TE Mirages), and a goddamn good one at that.  Is that about right?  

She still is but lost the CC witch was useful in some cases.
She is kind of like an Ash but with her it's easier/faster to kill those top lvl 50-80 enemies and you don't get motion sickness :D

So it doesn't matter if you do mission in solo or with team and I only have a maxed primed flow and quick thinking on her and haven't really did with her in the last monthes.

Edited May 29, 2016 by PETI258

[ShardsSuperior]

Quote

• Lockers open up and detonate when an enemy is in proximity, inflicting Finisher damage equivalent to the enemy's remaining amount of hit points. Exploded lockers will then close, allowing them to be usable after Sleight of Hand expires.

The wiki says this about Mirage's Sleight of Hand. Is this true?

 

I think the most significant difference is that Mirage's Prism can travel between detonating. So you can send it into the center of the next room before blowing it up. It's not just a tap-tap-boom thing.

[Cat__Nap]

2 hours ago, ShardsSuperior said:

I think the most significant difference is that Mirage's Prism can travel between detonating. So you can send it into the center of the next room before blowing it up. It's not just a tap-tap-boom thing.

Except that sending it into another room is useless since it won't blind anything that's not in LoS...

There can literally be a pole between me and a mob, and it won't get blinded.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Catoriii

[Archwizard]

On 5/27/2016 at 7:21 PM, yles9056 said:

For example:

• Bombard's rocket (this makes the ability more useful in void and Grineer maps)
• Grenades!
• Mine Osprey's mines
• Sapping Osprey's damage field generators.
• Tar-Mutalist MOA's puddles
• Basically, any object launched or deployed by enemies will turn against them

So... like... make explosives and traps inert towards Tenno and turn against enemies?

[shootaman777]

What if Sleight of Hand were able to make Nullifier bubbles into fields of disarming?  Hmmm, that'll never happen.  

[ShardsSuperior]

21 minutes ago, Catoriii said:

Except that sending it into another room is useless since it won't blind anything that's not in LoS...

There can literally be a pole between me and a mob, and it won't get blinded.

Why do you need to blind things that can't see you, anyways? Basically every weapon that the enemies use is LoS. And stuff like Nullifier fields that aren't LoS don't get affected anyways.

[--.Ravakahr.nVbs.--]

On 5/28/2016 at 8:32 AM, [DE]Danielle said:

Hey Tenno! 

This megathread will be used to host your discussions regarding the recent Mirage ability changes in Update 18.13:

Please be respectful and keep your feedback constructive. Thank you! 

Edit: Removed survivablity part due to amount of feedback completely ignoring the blind rework idea. 

New Mirage Problems + Solution

Blind Ability: 

• IDEA#1 Mirage has problems blinding over objects as it can LOS her blind. (See picture below). Solution: Mirage blind is now in 2 places the light globe and herself (like mesa ability). 
• IDEA#2: Mirage blinds inside herself AND over wall like Idea#1 but, the blind that comes from herself is 15m and penetrates through ALL objects. The lightball stays the way it is and uses LOS only techniques. Blind Mana Cost per second to be removed to give player a difficult choice, to cast around corners with light ball (over long distance), or to save themselves with inner blind. 
• IDEA#3 As it stands with no changes: Light globe will need 0.3m(?) penetration to stop buggy objects, or other enemies blocking light ball LOS (which happened today during sortie 3, one fat infested enemy would stop enemy behind being blinded). 

ttp://imgur.com/tjfK3GB

The above image is where blind is challenging to use, as if she blinds over wall, she no longer blinds beside her, and she is surrounded by objects that enemies are blind safe with (trust me 3 deaths :P in sortie 3) - as it stands, I would not consider using mirage again for an interception at this difficultly level, and therefore consider her a low tier, weak frame. The above situation would be worse if enemies where like bursa, or bombards, infested was hard enough. I really love idea#2 for this as a solution. 

Thanks for reading. 

Edited June 10, 2016 by RavenBHK
Removed Survivability section due to people completely ignoring rest of article.

[Oishii]

So.... mirage ulti is now a bad radial blind which isn't even an ulti... why DE??? How about make enemies affected by her blindness take extra damage like 50% more or something, remove the cast time, make it last longer, give enemies a debuff to damage after the blind wears off or anything to not make her ulti worse than a starting frames base ability. I understand the nerf but not giving her anything else in return?

[--.Ravakahr.nVbs.--]

10 minutes ago, Oishii said:

So.... mirage ulti is now a bad radial blind which isn't even an ulti... why DE??? How about make enemies affected by her blindness take extra damage like 50% more or something, remove the cast time, make it last longer, give enemies a debuff to damage after the blind wears off or anything to not make her ulti worse than a starting frames base ability. I understand the nerf but not giving her anything else in return?

I just posted a bunch of solutions above you. Read them and like, if you like the changes. 

[Oishii]

2 minutes ago, RavenBHK said:

I just posted a bunch of solutions above you. Read them and like, if you like the changes. 

Mmmm I do like solution number 2.

[shootaman777]

2 hours ago, RavenBHK said:

New Mirage Problems + Solution

Blind Ability: 

• IDEA#1 Mirage has problems blinding over objects as it can LOS her blind. (See picture below). Solution: Mirage blind is now in 2 places the light globe and herself (like mesa ability). 
• IDEA#2: Mirage blinds inside herself AND over wall like Idea#1 but, the blind that comes from herself is 15m and penetrates through ALL objects. The lightball stays the way it is and uses LOS only techniques. Blind Mana Cost per second to be removed to give player a difficult choice, to cast around corners with light ball (over long distance), or to save themselves with inner blind. 
• IDEA#3 As it stands with no changes: Light globe will need 0.3m(?) penetration to stop buggy objects, or other enemies blocking light ball LOS (which happened today during sortie 3, one fat infested enemy would stop enemy behind being blinded). 

ttp://imgur.com/tjfK3GB

The above image is where blind is challenging to use, as if she blinds over wall, she no longer blinds beside her, and she is surrounded by objects that enemies are blind safe with (trust me 3 deaths :P in sortie 3) - as it stands, I would not consider using mirage again for an interception at this difficultly level, and therefore consider her a low tier, weak frame. The above situation would be worse if enemies where like bursa, or bombards, infested was hard enough. I really love idea#2 for this as a solution. 

Mirage Survivability: 

• Mirage doesn't have much survivability now. She always had blind to stop enemies appearing 1m around a corner to peel her low health/shield. Consider reviewing health/shield/armor stats. Also note I found on sortie 3, quick thinking wasn't saving her and I had max energy (and I wasn't using flow) consider reviewing quick thinking mod to not require flow and to be way more efficient.
• Also I already posted this in bug reports: Ancient healers have reduced blind duration would last like 4s (out of 8 seconds) and roll me . Also 50% of the time they where never blinded (penetration issue?) [bug]
• Edit 2: Mirage has issues with dealing with bombards now. And eximus fire etc. Solution. Should be above. 

Rework IDEA#4,

• if mirage blinding was an issue, why not keep the old system, and reduce the range so she can't map wide blind. I'm finding the new system troublesome. Example as stated above, she now cannot corner blind, blind over objects whilst blinding enemy beside her, she has low hp/survivability. Just reduce the map wide range to 20m, 35m with overextended etc. (example). She now lives longer, more useful at higher levels, and becomes more situational when u would use her instead of default interception frame. (failing that I just edited in idea#2)

Conclusion: 

Without changes, for me mirage is now a Oberon level tier frame. Best idea for me was idea#2. I'd actually be excited with the rest of the community for that change. As it makes her very usable, and she cant be abused as much any more. The light ball around corners vs herself would actually be fun and challenging for the player to decide what is needed. The added change means she wouldn't drop to the floor due to being a weak frame, but more so drop to lack of skill. Positioning due to 15m self blind range would also add to player skill level/challenge. Idea#2 wouldn't require changes to hp/shield. Although I think she needs quick thinking to live, I find quick thinking is currently broken in a bad way and doesn't help her enough to survive past level 80 mobs. 

Thanks for reading. 

I don't understand your first idea.  

Your second idea seems nice and all, but 15 meters is not enough range, as in any endgame mission, Mirage can be one-shot by essentially anything from over 15 meters away, easily.  And if you make this range increased or affected by power range mods, then it would turn into an Excalibur Radial Blind with punch through at a significantly reduced range or comparable range, which would just be nerfed anyways.  

On the third idea, I agree that Mirage's blind form Prism needs a slight buff of punch through if it is to remain anyways near a reliable blind.  This is because deciding exactly what to blind with Mirage's Prism is not a calculated choice- it is a crapshoot, where one has to decide whether to die by enemies 5 meters away, or 20 meters away on every cast.  Not much of a variety of outcomes in that scenario, is there?  

I disagree with your opinions on Mirage's survivability.  She has great survivability with Eclipse in the darkness and with Hall of Mirrors (ignoring the large AoE weakness of Mirage's kit and lack of reliabilty of Eclipse's damage reduction buff).  In addition, simply because you believe that one Warframe could use a better form of Quick Thinking to increase its survability in endgame missions for balance, it will not happen, as it will unbalance tank Warframes using Quick Thinking more effectively.  Quick Thinking was not designed for squishy Warframes; it was designed for tanks.  Unless you are proposing that Quick Thinking's efficiency should scale with armor (as armor increases, energy conversion to health efficiency decreases, making the mod to be designed for squishy Warframes as opposed to tanks, essentially inverting its function) for it to be somewhat balanced (and useless in the endgame where even Quick Thinking can't save you from taking (let's say) 10,000 damage in one shot since the Warframe that would use this mod would have too little armor to negate the incoming damage enough for Quick Thinking to even matter), the idea will never make it through the front doors of DE HQ.  Also, Mirage has always had an AoE weakness, such as with Bombards, as you mentioned.  It's always been this way, with Mirage's ability kit as is.  

Your fourth idea would simply create a scenario where multiple Blinding Mirages would be used to do the same thing as one old-fashioned Blinding Mirage, essentially having the meta layout become 3 Blinding Mirages and one Energy Vampire Trinity.  

I am very insulted by your insinuation that Mirage is anywhere near Oberon's low tier on the totem pole of Warframes.  If you use her for things other than her (pre-nerf) blinding capabilities, you will see a very solid frame that simply has next to no uses in team gameplay.  The only scenarios in which Oberon can be used is when being carried by a team, or when going through beginner-level content, which is a joke in and of itself (excluding Oberon's potential as a nuker on Draco-style scenarios with his fourth ability).  

[shootaman777]

11 hours ago, WASPGOD said:

cant come up with any ideas. The base casting ability is so slow that you would need natural talent to even survive

I would disagree with that.  I used Speed Drift and Natural Talent on my Blinding Mirage while it was a thing, and the problem was not casting speed, it was that there was a timed delay between the casting animation and the appearance of the actual Prism, which was not reduced by Natural Talent or Speed Drift.  Due to this, I died many times while casting Prism, regardless.  

In other words, it is even worse than you are making it out to be, sadly.  :(

Edited May 30, 2016 by shootaman777
Adding the last bit.

[Praxxor]

On 5/28/2016 at 6:21 AM, yles9056 said:

Um... am I the only one who wants to talk about Sleight of Hand? More range and damage are great, but that's not the main reason why people don't bother using Sleight of Hand.

The ability is just not useful enough outside Corpus maps. It would be great if DE could expand the list of objects that can be booby trapped.

For example:

• Bombard's rocket (this makes the ability more useful in void and Grineer maps)
• Grenades!
• Mine Osprey's mines
• Sapping Osprey's damage field generators.
• Tar-Mutalist MOA's puddles
• Basically, any object launched or deployed by enemies will turn against them

Jam weapons too maybe?

[Praxxor]

4 hours ago, RavenBHK said:

New Mirage Problems + Solution

Blind Ability: 

• IDEA#1 Mirage has problems blinding over objects as it can LOS her blind. (See picture below). Solution: Mirage blind is now in 2 places the light globe and herself (like mesa ability). 
• IDEA#2: Mirage blinds inside herself AND over wall like Idea#1 but, the blind that comes from herself is 15m and penetrates through ALL objects. The lightball stays the way it is and uses LOS only techniques. Blind Mana Cost per second to be removed to give player a difficult choice, to cast around corners with light ball (over long distance), or to save themselves with inner blind. 
• IDEA#3 As it stands with no changes: Light globe will need 0.3m(?) penetration to stop buggy objects, or other enemies blocking light ball LOS (which happened today during sortie 3, one fat infested enemy would stop enemy behind being blinded). 

ttp://imgur.com/tjfK3GB

The above image is where blind is challenging to use, as if she blinds over wall, she no longer blinds beside her, and she is surrounded by objects that enemies are blind safe with (trust me 3 deaths :P in sortie 3) - as it stands, I would not consider using mirage again for an interception at this difficultly level, and therefore consider her a low tier, weak frame. The above situation would be worse if enemies where like bursa, or bombards, infested was hard enough. I really love idea#2 for this as a solution. 

Mirage Survivability: 

• Mirage doesn't have much survivability now. She always had blind to stop enemies appearing 1m around a corner to peel her low health/shield. Consider reviewing health/shield/armor stats. Also note I found on sortie 3, quick thinking wasn't saving her and I had max energy (and I wasn't using flow) consider reviewing quick thinking mod to not require flow and to be way more efficient.
• Also I already posted this in bug reports: Ancient healers have reduced blind duration would last like 4s (out of 8 seconds) and roll me . Also 50% of the time they where never blinded (penetration issue?) [bug]
• Edit 2: Mirage has issues with dealing with bombards now. And eximus fire etc. Solution. Should be above. 

Rework IDEA#4,

• if mirage blinding was an issue, why not keep the old system, and reduce the range so she can't map wide blind. I'm finding the new system troublesome. Example as stated above, she now cannot corner blind, blind over objects whilst blinding enemy beside her, she has low hp/survivability. Just reduce the map wide range to 20m, 35m with overextended etc. (example). She now lives longer, more useful at higher levels, and becomes more situational when u would use her instead of default interception frame. (failing that I just edited in idea#2)

Conclusion: 

Without changes, for me mirage is now a Oberon level tier frame. Best idea for me was idea#2. I'd actually be excited with the rest of the community for that change. As it makes her very usable, and she cant be abused as much any more. The light ball around corners vs herself would actually be fun and challenging for the player to decide what is needed. The added change means she wouldn't drop to the floor due to being a weak frame, but more so drop to lack of skill. Positioning due to 15m self blind range would also add to player skill level/challenge. Idea#2 wouldn't require changes to hp/shield. Although I think she needs quick thinking to live, I find quick thinking is currently broken in a bad way and doesn't help her enough to survive past level 80 mobs. 

Thanks for reading. 

I want mirage to be reworked too but

"Mirage doesn't have much survivability now."

this is totally wrong, Eclipse gives 95% damage reduction in shadows (better than shatter shield when in shadows, cuz this also affects melee damage and reduces enemy accuracy) and Hall of Mirrors, which is basically reducing incoming fire to 1/5, and enemies tend to target the clones more than you, it's possible to go solo into a t4 survival till one hour with a specialized Eclipse/Mirrors build, not just possible, it's easy to do so

But yeah, Prism and Sleight of hand are totally useless and not worth building for now, which is really sad

Thanks DE

[Fifield]

8 hours ago, Praxxor said:

Prism and Sleight of hand are totally useless

Even if Prism can only perma-disable 90% of enemies, regardless of level, how is that useless?  Not to mention the ability to clear giant rooms in Orokin maps/void.

Also, is it confirmed that Prism's blind is front facing only?

Edited May 30, 2016 by Fifield

[Praxxor]

1 hour ago, Fifield said:

Even if Prism can only perma-disable 90% of enemies, regardless of level, how is that useless?  Not to mention the ability to clear giant rooms in Orokin maps/void.

Also, is it confirmed that Prism's blind is front facing only?

I don't know what it is, but i know that i faceblinded some mobs and it had 0 effect

[Fifield]

4 minutes ago, Praxxor said:

I don't know what it is, but i know that i faceblinded some mobs and it had 0 effect

Record it and send it to support.

[shootaman777]

54 minutes ago, Fifield said:

Record it and send it to support.

It's a common bug that many face and talk about here on the forums, and have probably done so already.  What would this individual sending in more of the same thing to DE accomplish?  

[Fifield]

3 minutes ago, shootaman777 said:

It's a common bug that many face and talk about here on the forums, and have probably done so already.  What would this individual sending in more of the same thing to DE accomplish?  

Probably because they all think like you and leave it up to someone else.

[shootaman777]

4 minutes ago, Fifield said:

Probably because they all think like you and leave it up to someone else.

Maybe, maybe not.  Then again, we're both in the hypothetical realm here, so neither of us have a point to begin with.  xD

[(PSN)adam4213]

Well RIP MIrage. Sadly you will never be used again and left to rot in the trash pile along with Limbo and Mag. Trinity still has some use, but once EV gets nerfed she'll be joining you too. 

I knew when all the nerf warriors started complaining this was going to happen. Now Prism is a worse version of Radial Blind. GG DE. I never really had a problem with Blind Mirage. I only ever came across them in raids. Adding LoS ruined this ability. I always found the blind effect to be hit or miss as they enemies could still shoot back at you. I was always against adding LoS to for two reasons. First reason being that it would make it worse than Radial Blind and the second being that LoS itself is extremely buggy. Even when standing in front of an enemy the blind doesn't seem to work. 

I know Mirage still has her 1st and 3rd ability but I'll never use her again for the simple fact it destroys the framerate. It doesn't help when 99% of the time, the Mirage player is using a Synoid Simulor. So Mirage, for me at least, is completely dead. 

 

 

Edited May 30, 2016 by (PS4)adam4213

[shootaman777]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)adam4213 said:

Well RIP MIrage. Sadly you will never be used again and left to rot in the trash pile along with Limbo and Mag.

I knew when all the nerf warriors started complaining this was going to happen. Now Prism is a worse version of Radial Blind. GG DE. I never really had a problem with Blind Mirage. I only ever came across them in raids. Adding LoS ruined this ability. I always found the blind effect to be hit or miss as they enemies could still shoot back at you. I was always against adding LoS to for two reasons. First reason being that it would make it worse than Radial Blind and the second being that LoS itself is extremely buggy. Even when standing in front of an enemy the blind doesn't seem to work. 

I know Mirage still has her 1st and 3rd ability but I'll never use her again for the simple fact it completely destroys the framerate. It doesn't help when 99% of the time, the Mirage player is using a Synoid Simulor. So Mirage, for me at least, is completely dead. 

 

 

Mirage and Mag are definitely now on the same tier in terms of usefulness in a squad.  However, Mag still retains its semi-useful Greedy Pull farming uses and Mirage still retains its amazing yet unreliable tanking and damage buff uses, but these are only in solo situations.  I'd contest the notion that Limbo is 'trash', as it can still be very useful, not really as a S#&$tier Frost and S#&$tier Zenurik focus, but with its unique mode of invincibility that makes it stand out.  

We all saw these nerfs coming.  There was no mystery that Mirage was getting nerfed, as DE claimed to be nerfing abilities that can 'trivialise' content, which we all knew that Mirage was capable of.  However, as you've pointed out that you agree with, the only content that Mirage's blinding was used to 'trivialise' is endgame content, which is incredibly difficult in and of itself, and almost demands strategies to 'trivialise' it to the point where it can be farmed as reliably as midgame and easier content, since to get what you want in Grindframe/Warfarm, you have to grind, and the grind has only been made worse, contrary to DE's promises that grinding would be reduced.  Also, nobody in their right mind would farm something that cannot be reliably completed, as then it would not be farming, it would be a neverending S#&$ show.  Yeah, the days of Mirage's blind being useful are over.  But Mirage was only part of the problem here, and the other part of it, being the enemies, has been thus far ignored in terms of actual fixes by DE.  

If you want to not use Mirage anymore, that's your call to make.  However, before you leave Mirage behind, do you have any ideas that could be used to fix Mirage to the point where you would consider using her again (other than reverting the blinding nerf)?