"The Meh-ening"

[(XBOX)ToothlessApollo]

So is the point of all these reworks to turn every frame that was great at one thing into frames that are mediocre at a couple things? Are we eventually gonna wind up with a bunch of frames that are all mediocre at a couple different things, but aren't particularly great at anything? I don't know about you but I have more fun playing an uberbeast, knowing that I worked hard to get my frames that way. No thanks to "The Meh-ening" every frame will just be meh from now on.

[Magneu]

Because a frame that's good at one thing becomes meta, outshines everything else, and becomes "mandatory" for certain missions (which have to be created a certain way because those frames exist).

In any case, the three big frames that were nerfed, Mag/Mirage/Trinity, weren't just "good at one thing"  (although Mag was by far the absolute best, hands down frame for Void/Corpus damage dealing, to the point of trivializing Corpus sorties). Mag is now a multi-faction beast, Mirage follows the logic that other abilities use (as well as being a DPS powerhouse), and Trinity is still the infinite battery (although I'm not too happy with the Blessing rework; it actively rewards you for hitting 4 every thirty seconds; it doesn't make sense not to do so. More interactivity would be great!).

I'd rather have an "effective in multiple situations" frame than "only excels in one type of situation, to the point of invalidating every other frame", i.e. best CC, best heals, best Corpus-killer, etc.

[Danjal777]

The badassery is supposed to come from your skills.  If you need the carnage fix, go to appollodorus and just wade through grineer.  I get what you are saying, but this isn't the first time DE has done this, ember was nearly invincible originally.  They changed her defensive skill into accelerant.  Nova would cause chain reactions with molecular prime that would wipe entire tiles.  You will get used to the changes, just be happy that in 18 months, you can tell new player about how over powered atlas' landslide was.  Where DE needs to focus is on the cheese enemies: bombards, nullifiers, sapper ospreys, toxic ancients.  Once they are toned down, your fun will start to trickle in.  

[Danjal777]

4 minutes ago, Magneu said:

Because a frame that's good at one thing becomes meta, outshines everything else, and becomes "mandatory" for certain missions (which have to be created a certain way because those frames exist).

In any case, the three big frames that were nerfed, Mag/Mirage/Trinity, weren't just "good at one thing"  (although Mag was by far the absolute best, hands down frame for Void/Corpus damage dealing, to the point of trivializing Corpus sorties). Mag is now a multi-faction beast, Mirage follows the logic that other abilities use (as well as being a DPS powerhouse), and Trinity is still the infinite battery (although I'm not too happy with the Blessing rework; it actively rewards you for hitting 4 every thirty seconds; it doesn't make sense not to do so. More interactivity would be great!).

I'd rather have an "effective in multiple situations" frame than "only excels in one type of situation, to the point of invalidating every other frame", i.e. best CC, best heals, best Corpus-killer, etc.

I agree, I think if you want a feel for what DE was going for as far as difficulty, take a frame that isn't popular in high level content (hydroid, Oberon, etc.) and give a sortie a try.  You will find that it will be exceedingly difficult and you will likely lose a couple of lives, use cover, choose fights more wisely, aim more accurately, and move constantly in combat, pulling off moves that when nailed perfectly makes you feel "tenno".  That's the intent as opposed to hiding in one spot and casting a power over and over while you watch Netflix on another screen.

One of my better moments recently was encountering a grineer trying to turn me into Swiss cheese with a rampart, I then bullet jumped through the air, cast pull, which launched the unsuspecting grineer end over end about 15 feet above the rampart where I landed and epic headshot.  The fighting was so intense that I couldn't even stop to appreciate what happened.  That, to me, is Warframe.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

7 hours ago, Danjal777 said:

One of my better moments recently was encountering a grineer trying to turn me into Swiss cheese with a rampart, I then bullet jumped through the air, cast pull, which launched the unsuspecting grineer end over end about 15 feet above the rampart where I landed and epic headshot.  The fighting was so intense that I couldn't even stop to appreciate what happened.  That, to me, is Warframe.

 

Quote

"It's not that the grass is greener on the other side, it's that you can never be on both sides of the lawn at the same time."
~ Laura Fraser

 

[RealPandemonium]

You know what's "meh?"  Loading into a mission and knowing that I can't actually play Warframe in it because one team member can make all gameplay irrelevant through massive DPS/AOE, map-wide permaCC, and invulnerability/invisibility gimmicks.  If I just wanted to pointlessly grind for rewards without any gameplay involved, I would play a cellphone/facebook game.  

[YasaiTsume]

5 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

You know what's "meh?"  Loading into a mission and knowing that I can't actually play Warframe in it because one team member can make all gameplay irrelevant through massive DPS/AOE, map-wide permaCC, and invulnerability/invisibility gimmicks.  If I just wanted to pointlessly grind for rewards without any gameplay involved, I would play a cellphone/facebook game.  

Every Draco mission ever.

I just pretend to do things. But actually im just fiddling with my Facebook and not dying while letting a Mirage or Ash do all the work.

[Danjal777]

I just pug Draco and it does what I need it to do.  Usually public matches are less exploitation and you only need to do two four round missions to max one weapon.

[Misgenesis]

''The over-reacting''

[Noteybook]

On 6/4/2016 at 2:29 PM, (XB1)ToothlessApollo said:

So is the point of all these reworks to turn every frame that was great at one thing into frames that are mediocre at a couple things? Are we eventually gonna wind up with a bunch of frames that are all mediocre at a couple different things, but aren't particularly great at anything? I don't know about you but I have more fun playing an uberbeast, knowing that I worked hard to get my frames that way. No thanks to "The Meh-ening" every frame will just be meh from now on.

Pretty much, yes. Anytime anything is efficient, or, you know, actually works, people on these very forums ask for it to be nerfed. In a PVE game.

It has been this way for years.

[Morty2989]

I agree with the OP 100%. We can throw words like meta, interactivity, etc, etc around but this is the exact feeling I have for something I have almost four years, $400 and almost three thousand hours in. I have no motivation to fire the game up beyond getting my login reward and all my clanies have left as of this year. Nothing new is happening and we're spinning our wheels arguing over how people have come to play this game. 

I'm not trying to argue who is right or wrong I'm just stating how I feel. (and please, for the record, I wasn't a huge fan of any of the recent frames that were touched upon, please don't tell me I'm just 'salty', (ugh), because I'm lazy.

Warframe to me was always about moving from A to B and using my favorite weapon to mow down those before me and on a whim displaying immense power, be it a feat of agility or cutting a swatch of destruction in front of me. Now everything feels samey and nebulous and I can't be bothered to relearn it because it just feels like it's going to lose it's luster and be brought down again in a few weeks. 

[RealPandemonium]

4 hours ago, Morty2989 said:

I agree with the OP 100%. We can throw words like meta, interactivity, etc, etc around but this is the exact feeling I have for something I have almost four years, $400 and almost three thousand hours in. I have no motivation to fire the game up beyond getting my login reward and all my clanies have left as of this year. Nothing new is happening and we're spinning our wheels arguing over how people have come to play this game. 

I'm not trying to argue who is right or wrong I'm just stating how I feel. (and please, for the record, I wasn't a huge fan of any of the recent frames that were touched upon, please don't tell me I'm just 'salty', (ugh), because I'm lazy.

Warframe to me was always about moving from A to B and using my favorite weapon to mow down those before me and on a whim displaying immense power, be it a feat of agility or cutting a swatch of destruction in front of me. Now everything feels samey and nebulous and I can't be bothered to relearn it because it just feels like it's going to lose it's luster and be brought down again in a few weeks. 

This is the result of the game no longer being fun because there's no thought involved.  When the only criterion for "desirable" content is how quickly it lets you trivialize repeated missions, there's not much game left to enjoy.  

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

5 hours ago, Morty2989 said:

Warframe to me was always about moving from A to B and using my favorite weapon to mow down those before me and on a whim displaying immense power, be it a feat of agility or cutting a swatch of destruction in front of me. Now everything feels samey and nebulous and I can't be bothered to relearn it because it just feels like it's going to lose it's luster and be brought down again in a few weeks. 

If devs ever wanted to know why players don't stay, it's the nerfing and radical changes that makes folks leave, as it is depressing to put that time and money into a game and POOF! it's gone.

Devs can lead folks to water, but they can't force them to drink it. They move to a sweeter water source, instead.

The current trend to make video games work and feel like high stakes card games is troubling, as video games weren't about gambling (as gambling games don't change itself, players just try to beat the odds ... and they get really paid for their time and effort, too!).

[Ohmlink]

This discussion really depends on where you think end game is, and when you think you should no longer be able to continue. Endless missions are not intended to actually be endless they are supposed to have a glass ceiling sort to speak. You can keep going but don't cry about getting one shot.

DE is apparently taking the other direction and nerfing the over performers and buffing the under performers.  Ideally when they are done balancing Limbo will be able to go as long as Banshee who can go as long as Rhino who can go as long as Chroma and so on.

DE should not have let the over performers go for so long as people behave like they do now. I'm glad they are doing something though.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

7 minutes ago, Ohmlink said:

DE should not have let the over performers go for so long as people behave like they do now. I'm glad they are doing something though.

And when players leave because their source of fun is gone, will you be glad that the game is more dead of activity?

It's "we're all in this together" and trying to strike a balance, not "Meh, that doesn't bother ME, so who cares?"

WF doesn't have the side activities other games have to keep players interested when nerfs come. If I tire of dungeons/raids/PvP there's questing/pet battling/achieve running to do (or in EvE PI and component making). WF doesn't have those side activities when your main toon is nerfed to stay in the game. When Mag got nerfed, the motivation to login went with it.

Truly, playing Solitaire is more fun now than to play WF, less hassles and you at least know -- even 2 years later -- the game hasn't changed to Mahjong!

[Gurpgork]

1 minute ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Truly, playing Solitaire is more fun now than to play WF

You know what was less fun than Solitaire? Sitting in an Interception mission and waiting for the bar to move across the screen while a Mirage on a macro spammed Prism. 

Now, thanks to a nerf, we actually have to *gasp* interact with enemies to win Interception missions. 

Seriously, what is the point of playing a game about action and combat when some abilities can absolutely remove action and combat?

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

Just now, Gurpgork said:

Seriously, what is the point of playing a game about action and combat when some abilities can absolutely remove action and combat?

1. Level Mag through the star map with only 4 revives A DAY, then get to me about action and combat penalties.

2. Level Mag through the star map with zero heals, then get to me about action and combat penalties.

Now seeing your MAIN toon nerfed ... then you'll understand why Solitaire is more fun to play ... as repeating 1+2 is "Meh, time to have fun elsewhere."

[Ohmlink]

11 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

And when players leave because their source of fun is gone, will you be glad that the game is more dead of activity?

It's "we're all in this together" and trying to strike a balance, not "Meh, that doesn't bother ME, so who cares?"

WF doesn't have the side activities other games have to keep players interested when nerfs come. If I tire of dungeons/raids/PvP there's questing/pet battling/achieve running to do (or in EvE PI and component making). WF doesn't have those side activities when your main toon is nerfed to stay in the game. When Mag got nerfed, the motivation to login went with it.

Truly, playing Solitaire is more fun now than to play WF, less hassles and you at least know -- even 2 years later -- the game hasn't changed to Mahjong!

Then play solitaire, you will surely get DE to wake up.

I personally find avoiding damage from a potentially dangerous enemy more engaging than solitaire but to each their own.

Is this the part we scream our opinion is more right than the others?

Edited June 6, 2016 by Ohmlink

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

2 minutes ago, Ohmlink said:

Then play solitaire, you will surely get DE to wake up.

I personally find avoiding damage from a potentially dangerous enemy more engaging than solitaire but to each their own.

You're fixated on "avoiding damage and danger" like a speed addict needing that next hit of speed. That's YOUR play style.

Where other players find it's more fun playing as a caster hybrid casting and the feel of that. That's MY play style.

When there's little else BUT to do in WF than pewpewpew, and your play style isn't fun anymore. You find things that are fun to do. It's that simple.

[--Q--uaint]

35 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

You know what was less fun than Solitaire? Sitting in an Interception mission and waiting for the bar to move across the screen while a Mirage on a macro spammed Prism.

Do you know what's less fun than that? Dealing with level 100+ Isolator Bursas who can kill you instantly with just a small portion of their shotgun blast at mid range and show up in groups of 3 to spam knockdowns.

If an enemy takes multiple hits from the Tonkor to die, it's probably just entirely overwhelming to basically any other weapon.

38 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

Now, thanks to a nerf, we actually have to *gasp* interact with enemies to win Interception missions.

Interception is basically Survival but with more stupid tasks to keep track of. It can be fun, from time to time, but I can tell you that using a macro to spam Blind is much more fun than actually playing the mission in most cases. The fact that sorties have Interception just makes everything worse.

40 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

Seriously, what is the point of playing a game about action and combat when some abilities can absolutely remove action and combat?

What is the point of playing a game about action and combat when some enemies completely remove your ability to engage in action and combat?

I don't really have a problem with endless missions doing this; that's the way the game is supposed to be. It's lame, but you're going beyond the intended play-space so it's whatever.
Sorties, however, are intended gameplay that they want players to experience. Fixing them to be fun instead of just stupid is mandatory, IMO. (by the by, energy reduction is just no fun in general... sortie level enemies magnify that significantly... Yes, it's sometimes fun to be able to say "I beat that," but making such challenges daily and rotating with the exact same rewards [and such insane variance in difficulty] is just bass-ackwards.)

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

On June 4, 2016 at 9:44 PM, RealPandemonium said:

You know what's "meh?"  Loading into a mission and knowing that I can't actually play Warframe in it because one team member can make all gameplay irrelevant through massive DPS/AOE, map-wide permaCC, and invulnerability/invisibility gimmicks.  If I just wanted to pointlessly grind for rewards without any gameplay involved, I would play a cellphone/facebook game.  

Honestly, the warframe's aren't the problem. You have always been one to hate warframes but there powers and people maximizing them has always been Warfare's appeal. Tell me you never enjoyed a max speed volt or valkyr buffing you and you running around melee-ing everything to death, Or a rhino charge build, Or vaubun placing bounce pads everywhere... Etc. I think the biggest changed that needs to occur is have more engaging missions (like the raids) and make enemies respond to you differently. I think the game needs to evolve past foot soldiers. and small corridors unless its a spy mission or a low level mission. I think at a certain point Grineer and Corpus need to call in air support or send in tanks or heavy moa. You can only kill foot souldiers for so long in small corridors before it gets old. Send heavy airships or tanks at us in larger battlefields... Imagine a giant osprey the size the of our ship attaccking from above? Or three? 

 

The last thing warframe needs, is to be Meh-ed. Warframes need to feel powerful or this game turns into destiny or the division where enemies shrug off everything you thow at them and eat infinite amount of bullets grenades etc. 

 

I think its time the tenno stopped raiding ships and outposts and started fighting at the corpus indoctrination temples or the grinders cloning facility. Larger facilities that give a larger more serious response then sending more foot soldiers to be slaughtered.

 

There's not much more gameplay in shooting bullet sponges and occasionally using an ability to slightly hurt the enemies every so often. 

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

4 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

The last thing warframe needs, is to be Meh-ed. Warframes need to feel powerful or this game turns into destiny or the division where enemies shrug off everything you thow at them and eat infinite amount of bullets grenades etc. 

One guy's happiness, is another guy's misery.

A game really needs to have play styles in mind. Where people who just want Zombiefest 3.0 they can play it. If people want to play Ultra-Sortie-Hell they can play it and so on.

Not having devs determine who gets "welfare" gear and it's misery and division.

Not having players who simply want stuff handed to them as THE way.

(Or at least some side activity for others in their nerf bat time can do but not think of the nerf bat when all they wanted to do is play!).

[Morty2989]

7 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

This is the result of the game no longer being fun because there's no thought involved.  When the only criterion for "desirable" content is how quickly it lets you trivialize repeated missions, there's not much game left to enjoy.  

That is highly subjective and I do not agree.

The game was never hard outside of those first few weeks of closed beta in late 2012. Fun for my group was coming together to grind out the new stuff and seeing how wacky they could get with the themes and powers. Everyone had their own reason to play but that was enough to keep us going for years.

I think that's another issue at hand, people forget that this is essentially a lobby game, they've sure gone above and beyond in terms of putting actual world building and story in a F2P game but when you get down to it it IS World of Tanks or anything else of the sort. We wait in the queue and go do our thing, then we tweak equipment and do it again. The term 'trivialize' garners nothing but an eye-roll from me much like 'interactivity' does. It artificially inflates what is actually going on in the game and sidesteps why I think these nerfs really happened. 

If you think the game is too easy then you are more then welcome to go right ahead and take your health and shield mods off and stop using a Tonkor. If I have all the time and money mentioned above in the game, not to mention so many hours I almost see the code like friggin Neo in the Matrix, yet I choose to keep playing rather than move on to something new, yeah....it's going to be easier than the MR2 guy who just started. In any other game in existence that would be fine but for some reason here it feels like they want me to be on an even playing field with Mr. MR2. That is what sucks all the motivation out of the game for me. It's become a system where my time in does not equal any feeling of gain at all.

(And for the record, I play solo or with my MR17+ friends so I don't step all over our hypothetical MR2 friend here. That I can understand and I think we on the whole need to accept pub lobbies are almost always going to end this way so find some damn friends your rank. Help yourself yo.)

Now that we've argued this for a week or two the real bottom line seems to be that people are tired of being left out of the match. They aren't worried about how many buttons they press.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Morty2989

[Enno69]

The game is not "meh-ening". The reworks weren't perfect, but for the most part they were fine. Mesa got a buff. Trinity and Mirage have been de-cheesed (although 50m range is a bit short indeed). Volt and Mag have evolved in an interesting way, Hysteria now require some brain cells to work, Excalibur can no longer be used as a plasma turret. This is a first step before a rebalance of the game, scaling fixes and the addition of more meaningful content. The endgoal is to make WF more fun, obviously. Nothing has been destroyed or whatever.

For those who claim "But my fun is to stroll through hordes of enemies with my OP gear !", well you can still do that, there's a bunch of planets on the starchart where this is still possible.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

11 hours ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

1. Level Mag through the star map with only 4 revives A DAY, then get to me about action and combat penalties.

2. Level Mag through the star map with zero heals, then get to me about action and combat penalties.

Now seeing your MAIN toon nerfed ... then you'll understand why Solitaire is more fun to play ... as repeating 1+2 is "Meh, time to have fun elsewhere."

Where is the nerf tho?

Pull and bullet attractor both got a massive buff.

 

Pull randomly scattered enemys across the map, it now pulls them to your location (don't wanna melee? Use explosives. Why wouldn't you melee tho when naramon is finally in her grasp)

 

Magnetice isn't limmited to one enemy anymore and shares the ever endless scaling damage to all enemys in range!

 

Both abilitys offer a share of divine control over thy enemys, what's a massive boost to mags suvivability she previously missed, with means to go endless against all fractions.

What did SP for you on grineer and infested missions as you moved “trough the star map“?.. 

 

Seriously, i'd love to know.

Edited June 6, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108