Putting status on par with crit

[motorfirebox]

So in terms of damage output, crit > status pretty much every time. There might be a few edge cases where status is better, but all else being equal, crit is the better choice every time. A big part of that is the fact that there's generally no advantage to re-applying a status effect. If an enemy is currently under the effects of an electric proc, applying a second proc doesn't do anything aside from maybe a little AOE. Some status effects, such as slash and toxin, can simply stack, but in most cases the most you get is an extension of the existing effect.

It seems like the simplest way to close this gap would be for successive applications of existing status effects to do extra damage. So, let's say you have a weapon with 100 toxin on it. You get a toxin proc, and while the proc is still on the target, you get a second proc. In addition to the normal effect (applying a second toxin dot to the target), you also do 100 extra toxin damage, in addition to the normal damage of the attack that made the proc.

Further procs should be multiplicative. So the first proc is normal; the second proc is 1x damage (in the 100 toxin example that would be +100 damage; the third is x2 damage (+200 in the 100 toxin example); the fourth is x3, and so on. That way, weapons with high status can end up putting out a lot of damage over time. Probably this effect should cap out at x10 or something, I dunno. I guess if you can stack 20 procs on a target, maybe you deserve x20 damage.

[JuanDeages]

How would this work for say, viral, or magnetic?

[Xrkr]

The way I see it, damage-based status effects should absolutely be crit-synergistic, because they're damage-based and critting a toxic or gas or heat proc ensures the DOT ticks all hit harder. I think all damage-based procs could stand to have their % of base damage increased, but for things like radiation (which isn't used for damage) or magnetic (which isn't based on the weapon's damage at all) or viral (see magnetic) it's completely irrelevant.

It seems to be less of a problem for melee, as the combo multiplier can add significant damage to procs. Combined with bloodrush+maiming strike (red crit procs are a helluva thing) status is actually in a decent place for melee. For guns, I think damage procs need to have a higher portion of base damage applied, since there are less ways to scale up base damage for most weapons that have a high enough status chance to make a status build.

In short: Non-damage-based status just needs to have high status chance to be reliably applied. Damage-based status (in my opinion) should really be crit/status hybrids, or perhaps there could be mods that make pure status builds viable (for example: increasing toxin DOT if the enemy is bleeding or increasing applied blast damage if the enemy is frozen).

E: Also, we may want to wait until the devs have finished reworking scaling and whatnot before discussing this in too much depth.

E2: About proc stacking, I think that's exactly how toxin procs work right now. I don't think heat procs stack, though. Re-read OP and, duh, you already said that.

Edited June 12, 2016 by Xrkr

[motorfirebox]

5 hours ago, JuanDeages said:

How would this work for say, viral, or magnetic?

Procs that don't stack, such as viral, magnetic, electricity, and so on, would need to be modified to have some kind of internal stack count.

[ysmer]

signed we need this

[Epsik-kun]

20 hours ago, motorfirebox said:

So in terms of damage output, crit > status pretty much every time

There's a thing called "corrosive proc" that makes the statement entirely false. Also, hits that proc a status can bypass armor.

However I do understand what you are talking about. However, I would say currently we need fixing the pure damage melee, rather than status. We have the largest weapon category in the game - long swords - being absurdly weak because none of them is good at critical nor at status.

[OzoneSlayer]

2 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

There's a thing called "corrosive proc" that makes the statement entirely false. Also, hits that proc a status can bypass armor.

 

This is only relevant at higher levels, where you should be using 4xCP, making crit superior there as well

[Camelslayer]

Almost all status effects would need a secondary effect in order for a >100% status system to work. Which I'm fine with, but some status effects would probably need to be changed in order for this to work. Magnetic is already a nearly useless proc in PvE, so it would have to change. 

[Epsik-kun]

8 minutes ago, OzoneSlayer said:

This is only relevant at higher levels, where you should be using 4xCP, making crit superior there as well

4CP is a rare occurrence in non pre-made squads. Level 60+ is a low level, but will already benefit from corrosive procs much better than stacking only damage and crits. Survivals are more fun to solo.

[Radjehuty]

5 hours ago, Epsik-kun said:

4CP is a rare occurrence in non pre-made squads. Level 60+ is a low level, but will already benefit from corrosive procs much better than stacking only damage and crits. Survivals are more fun to solo.

You're pretty much explaining one of those few exceptions the OP already stated is possible where status can be more important than crit. Soloing survivals is less common than forming groups. There's more elements than just corrosive and there's 3 physical damage types on top of that. The only status effect that's worth stacking is Corrosive and only up to a point where armor is gone. Your example doesn't support the idea that status is better than crit in the majority of cases. Only in the case of high level + solo or possibly pug group.

I'd add to this by saying there's no benefit to having over 100% status effect chance. There is no red-crit of status chance.

[motorfirebox]

14 hours ago, Epsik-kun said:

There's a thing called "corrosive proc" that makes the statement entirely false. Also, hits that proc a status can bypass armor.

However I do understand what you are talking about. However, I would say currently we need fixing the pure damage melee, rather than status. We have the largest weapon category in the game - long swords - being absurdly weak because none of them is good at critical nor at status.

Yeah, it's definitely really good to have a certain amount of corrosive (or viral, which scales better) at high levels. But the threshold is pretty low. You're not going to go for 100% proc chance in most cases, you'd be wasting mod slots. If you can get up over 50% proc chance, you're probably going to call it good enough and stack on either pure damage mods or—if the weapon has a decent crit chance—more crit mods. And I certainly wouldn't recommend depending on slash dot ticks if you can get crit chance instead.

 

Which actually brings me to another point: adding multiplicative damage on sequential status procs would also allow status to go over 100% without being a waste of mod slots. It would the same as red crits, essentially; if you've got a 125% proc chance, you have 100% chance of getting a proc and a 25% chance of getting a second proc (which gives you the multiplicative bonus damage).

I don't think this change, by itself, would quite get stats up to the same level as crit. But it would go a long, long way towards evening the scales.

[bubbabenali]

18 hours ago, Epsik-kun said:

There's a thing called "corrosive proc" that makes the statement entirely false. Also, hits that proc a status can bypass armor.

Are you kidding? Until you melted enough armor on leveled enemies where it actually is needed you are allready killed.

The only proc thats really usefull for damage is Slash as it flatout ignorses any form of defense. If the team runs 4CPs one could use Viral but thats all from the diversity department.

The thing corrosive has going for is that 75% bonusdamage against ferrite armor and if you really have a gun that can pelt high lvl enemies before they die even that bonus is gone.

[AsIsWritten]

19 hours ago, OzoneSlayer said:

This is only relevant at higher levels, where you should be using 4xCP, making crit superior there as well

"should" is subjective. I play into the lvl 200's for enemies in a lot of missions, And I dont bother with the CPs because its a complete WASTE of my aura. Id rather have Energy Siphon or Rifle Amp than that. It doesn't matter when literally all my shots pierce their Armour and deal essentially true damage to their hp. CP is NOT a mandatory item and you should NOT make it out to be

[Epsik-kun]

6 hours ago, bubbabenali said:

Until you melted enough armor on leveled enemies where it actually is needed you are allready killed

That's completely false. Switching any of Blood Rush built melee critical mods (save for the Blood Rush itself, obviously) in favor of Weeping Wounds on a decent corrosive weapon will considerable increase your damage against armored targets of level ~100, which is not "you are already killed" level by any means. Slash proc can be built for effectively, but it's heavily inferior to corrosive as long as armor involved. And when armor isn't involved, you are better off with building for crit and damage.

Also, corrosive is one of the most versatile damage types in the game.

I think the main problem is that there are effectively two procs in this game - corrosive and slash. Everything else can be ignored.

 

10 hours ago, motorfirebox said:

viral, which scales better

Corrosive can increase your effective damage by a factor of several hundreds. Viral is a flat x2 all the time.

 

18 hours ago, Radjehuty said:

You're pretty much explaining one of those few exceptions

The thing is, armored enemies is the only thing in this game you should be worried about in a sense of being able to deal damage.

[bubbabenali]

47 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

That's completely false. Switching any of Blood Rush built melee critical mods (save for the Blood Rush itself, obviously) in favor of Weeping Wounds on a decent corrosive weapon will considerable increase your damage against armored targets of level ~100, which is not "you are already killed" level by any means. Slash proc can be built for effectively, but it's heavily inferior to corrosive as long as armor involved. And when armor isn't involved, you are better off with building for crit and damage.

Yeah, what I said.

Corrosive deals 175% to armored targets.

The only melee weapon fast enough to melt their armor before you or the enemy dies is Ninkondi.

But before that can happen, your teammate allready shreded the enemy with his Crit/Slash Atterax.

Thats the most effective way to melee 60 minutes T4 survivals as far as I did until now.

[Epsik-kun]

2 minutes ago, bubbabenali said:

Yeah, what I said.

What you said was false. Corrosive proc will give a better DPS increase than extra damage or critical chance even on 5% status weapon.

"The only one I know" does not equal "The only" or "The most". I have no idea, why are you trying to argue about something you simply don't know as you never even tried - because you can easily try that out in simulacrum and see the results.

[bubbabenali]

7 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

What you said was false. Corrosive proc will give a better DPS increase than extra damage or critical chance even on 5% status weapon.

"The only one I know" does not equal "The only" or "The most". I have no idea, why are you trying to argue about something you simply don't know as you never even tried - because you can easily try that out in simulacrum and see the results.

This thread isn't about damage types dps and elements. It's about vaiability of status procs against crit damage.

Also 25% armor reducing on proc is not that great against a 5 digit red crit slash proc.

Edited June 14, 2016 by bubbabenali

[Burnthesteak87]

On 12/6/2016 at 5:34 PM, motorfirebox said:

So in terms of damage output, crit > status pretty much every time. There might be a few edge cases where status is better, but all else being equal, crit is the better choice every time. A big part of that is the fact that there's generally no advantage to re-applying a status effect. If an enemy is currently under the effects of an electric proc, applying a second proc doesn't do anything aside from maybe a little AOE. Some status effects, such as slash and toxin, can simply stack, but in most cases the most you get is an extension of the existing effect.

It seems like the simplest way to close this gap would be for successive applications of existing status effects to do extra damage. So, let's say you have a weapon with 100 toxin on it. You get a toxin proc, and while the proc is still on the target, you get a second proc. In addition to the normal effect (applying a second toxin dot to the target), you also do 100 extra toxin damage, in addition to the normal damage of the attack that made the proc.

Further procs should be multiplicative. So the first proc is normal; the second proc is 1x damage (in the 100 toxin example that would be +100 damage; the third is x2 damage (+200 in the 100 toxin example); the fourth is x3, and so on. That way, weapons with high status can end up putting out a lot of damage over time. Probably this effect should cap out at x10 or something, I dunno. I guess if you can stack 20 procs on a target, maybe you deserve x20 damage.

Sorry to answer late but

Bleeding Procs > whatever Damage.

Also I'd totally delete away Critical Strikes cause they're a mechanic for Role Play Games, not action shooters.

Status Procs should be the result of Critical Hits.

And I'd introduce some new Status Concept and Critical Status involving weakspots, which would amplify the Status effect.

After all, hitting a critical strike shoul be a fortunate blow causing more devastating consequences on the structure of the enemy.
Like slashing away limbs and bleed them to death, perforating and breaching armor in specific spots, concussing heads, arms, making that part unusable for a period of time, etc.

A concept a bit like that of Corpus helmets: a good hit removes the helmet, allowing to hit the headshot more properly.
In the same manner for example Piercing damage should cause a weakspot ala Banshee Sonar, where bleedings and flesh damage would be more dangerous.

Many other Examples:
Intoxication provoking what Piercing damage does now: Weakening the unit, slowing it.

Burning the head causing blindness.

Freezing arms makes them unusable, clogging weapons,  freezing legs rooting targets on place...
 

 

Edited June 14, 2016 by Burnthesteak87

[Epsik-kun]

5 minutes ago, bubbabenali said:

Also 25% armor reducing on proc is not that great against a 5 digit red crit proced slash damage.

5 digit slash damage proc doesn't require building for it. You can have pure corrosive build and still have access to these procs. And to be honest, these are the only slash procs that aren't garbage.

 Also, 25% armor reducing on proc is far, far more than any kind of slash proc. I don't think you realize the difference between dealing 0.1% of damage and 5% of damage.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Epsik-kun

[bubbabenali]

4 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

5 digit slash damage proc doesn't require building for it. You can have pure corrosive build and still have access to these procs. And to be honest, these are the only slash procs that aren't garbage.

 Also, 25% armor reducing on proc is far, far more than any kind of slash proc. I don't think you realize the difference between dealing 0.1% of damage and 5% of damage.

I think you underestimate tremendously the bleed proc - every tick ignores the armor.

For 7 Ticks in 6 Seconds the enemy eats 40% weapon damage per tick, thats a difference of 0.1% to 40% on nearly every hit with the Atterax, with an crit multiplyer of 6x on every redcrit (which will be on every hit after the 5th hit).

[Justice_Ember]

I made a similar topic once, I think that the only way for status to be on par with crit is that after 100% probability they get an "enhanced status", just like red crits are a thing we should get "red status", but as someone said earlier that would require rework for some statuses.

[Phatose]

Procs should be improved, but not equal in damage output to crits - because Proc builds can switch elements and vastly change the nature of their output, while crit builds are only capable of pure damage.  For example, a proc build could change from corrosive - focused on stripping armor from high level single targets - to radiation for CC, or gas for AoE damage, to bleed for armor ignoring DoT.

[-N7-Leonhart]

 

On 6/13/2016 at 3:29 PM, OzoneSlayer said:

This is only relevant at higher levels, where you should be using 4xCP, making crit superior there as well

4 x CP? Don't think I used that in the last 1000 games played. So yeah, not that mandatory as it is made to be.

Basically never to be made if you don't like to recruit or you don't like to place conditions on your squad.

[OzoneSlayer]

1 hour ago, -BM-Leonhart said:

 

4 x CP? Don't think I used that in the last 1000 games played. So yeah, not that mandatory as it is made to be.

Basically never to be made if you don't like to recruit or you don't like to place conditions on your squad.

Those 1000 games couldn't have all been endurance runs now could they? I was specifically talking about situations where armor gets extremely broken

[SenorClipClop]

Nah. Crit adds raw damage, Status adds utility.

On 2016-06-12 at 11:34 AM, motorfirebox said:

So in terms of damage output, crit > status pretty much every time

You're absolutely right in this respect. However, Status does not need a damage buff, because there's much more to Status than just damage. (Really, damage isn't the point of most kinds of status). Crit will usually make Status seem useless at low levels, since a dead enemy will do nothing to you. Status sees its use in the late game when it might take a while to slay an enemy and you want to go about that by bypassing its defenses (Toxin, Corrosive, Slash), or you want to CC them so you can deal with other more important enemies and get back to them later (Electric, Blast, Impact). Inflicting Status procs is a clever strategic move and one that should be in any discerning Tenno's toolkit.

Don't get me wrong, critical damage is still important (I prefer using crit weapons over status weapons), but every effect is useful in some respect.