Overpowered players

[blackheartstar_pc]

2 minutes ago, -CM-Emptiness said:

If players go on about concepts they haven't experienced, I would assume the community ought to know instead of assuming that they have experienced it.

Agreed.

[blackheartstar_pc]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Doctor-Blitz- said:

latest nerfs killed Volt

Where I can see the other frames mentioned taking a hit. I'm curious to hear how Volt was taken down? I felt he was the only good thing out of all those changes and haven't seen much bad said about him.

Edited June 19, 2016 by blackheartstar_pc

[Azrael]

12 minutes ago, -CM-Emptiness said:

That being said, I never thought this would be similar to 'name and shame'?

Yeah, I get that it's really not, I just feel like it could easily be taken that way. I kinda feel like the whole convo needs to be dialed back a bit, if we're to get any attention at all other than "thread locked, be nicer in the future."

Also, it IS insulting to be told that I'M the problem with the game, because I spent a lot of time learning to be more powerful. But when I fire back, I lose the ability to actually fight back, you know?

Not that I'm immune, of course. I've made a few posts I regretted later. I'm just trying to help, because I'm on your side. Our overpoweredness is needed in a lot of places in this game. The real problem is that there are no true high-level nodes. That's why I was so happy when the level 85 Rathuum arena came out. I was like "YES! Finally we almost have a high-level node!"  :)

[Azrael]

13 hours ago, (XB1)Beck117 said:

I use Inaros all the time because DE made a viable solo frame that doesn't have to rely on invis or CC, and guess what? He's one of the most fun frames to use because there is still lots of risk and disadvantages to him and in high level he can be put down very quickly if your not careful. I'd dare to say hes one of the most balanced frames in the game and doesn't need any changes.

I play Inaros a lot, because he's so fun. But the level at which you have to worry about dying becomes a lot higher once you slap a Grace or two on him...

 

13 hours ago, (XB1)Beck117 said:

I'm fairly certain Shatter Shield doesn't work against enemies that are using melee attacks.

No, it does not. It also doesn't protect you from AoE damage. Mesa can actually go down quite easily.

 

6 hours ago, (XB1)Beck117 said:

I rarely use life strike and at high level, devour is a full heal depending on where its used.

Meh. Devour is slow and often a bad idea, since enemies tend to group up on you and wait for you to leave the animation so they can kill you once you're done. I really enjoy using his 4 to heal me. Just discharge it, and get rewarded with an entire hallway of CC'd enemies that heal everybody at a huge rate. Just remember to re-charge your armor during the heals, so you don't have to heal yourself again.

[Me.KayOh]

On 6/15/2016 at 6:00 AM, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

*cough* This thread is going to get a loooot of hate. But, at the risk of sounding civil...

OP, the devs have said repeatedly (even in the most recent devstream) that Tenno mowing down enemies in massive numbers is not an unintended consequence. They want the player to have that feeling of power. Tenno are beings created to kill an enemy that the Empire couldn't stand against, and even the Empire is gone. The Corpus and Grineer may be warmongers now, but they're still just normal humans and half-a-brain clones. I've pictured the sort of game balance you're suggesting myself, where mooks take more than one hit to kill, but that's just not the kind of game DE set out to make.

Overpowered players are only overpowered for what is considered early- and mid-game content. The game is currently balanced around lv50 enemies, but is being rebalanced around lv100 enemies. No offense, but by your arguments, it sounds like you don't have much experience with enemies in that level range. Stay in T4 survival for an hour or more and you'll see things a little differently. Those enemies are only lv80 and will become nearly impossible for you to kill without planning and highly min/maxed gear. As powerful as endgame enemies are, you need to be able to slaughter mooks quickly, because otherwise focused fire will down even tanks in seconds.

Also, you're dramatically underestimating the damage potential of weapon mods. You get +160% damage just from a maxed Serration. Mods can easily add 1000% to a weapon's base damage with a few forma. A massive game-wide stat crunch is planned, potentially involving the removal of some crucial mods, but not for the reason you're suggesting. The inflated numbers just make the game difficult for DE to balance according to their own intentions.

thiiiisssss with allll my  heart!!

[-CM-Emptiness]

29 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

Also, it IS insulting to be told that I'M the problem with the game, because I spent a lot of time learning to be more powerful. But when I fire back, I lose the ability to actually fight back, you know?

Not that I'm immune, of course. I've made a few posts I regretted later. I'm just trying to help, because I'm on your side. Our overpoweredness is needed in a lot of places in this game. The real problem is that there are no true high-level nodes. That's why I was so happy when the level 85 Rathuum arena came out. I was like "YES! Finally we almost have a high-level node!"  :)

I suppose that depends on how you fight back. I'd say using evidence as a means of discrediting would be preferable to the Wild West way. I don't intend to turn this into a farce, everyone here just wants to convey a point :P

Happy with the Rathuum arena as well. At least it signals a start for those at the high end. Look forward to more coming updates. 

39 minutes ago, blackheartstar_pc said:

Where I can see the other frames mentioned taking a hit. I'm curious to hear how Volt was taken down? I felt he was the only good thing out of all those changes and haven't seen much bad said about him.

His was the only actual rework; the rest were nerfs. They did a terrible job IMO. Speed could do just with an on / off opt button, there was no need to remove the radial buff or implement a cast-delay. Riot shield has too many limits, works against reviving, you might as well drop another standing shield. Electric Shield should not have a cap; it already has duration, you could just lower that instead (AOE is also pretty pointless). Discharge has a damage cap which removes CC lock prematurely, especially on Corpus. Completely unnecessary.

Edited June 19, 2016 by -CM-Emptiness

[SenorClipClop]

On 6/15/2016 at 3:40 AM, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

I've seen a lot of threads and people commenting about overpowered enemies and their broken scaling, but it almost feels like everyone is just ignoring the pink elephant in the room. Overpowered and cheesy enemies are merely a symptom of another problem.

That problem is that player weapons and powers are way overpowered. Not only is there power creep with each new weapons released, the biggest problem IMO is the weapon modding system. It allows for things like 100x damage increase with the right mods and that's just from weapon mods. Factor in warframe damage boosting abilities and it's easily 1000x damage increase. The result is trivialization of all non endless missions which forces experienced players to either stroll around the map for half an hour so enemies can actually damage them or play sortie and try to out cheese those broken enemies.

The solution would be to fix the modding system so that it actually serves the player play style and is actually skill indexed and not merely flat damage booster.

• Mods like seration need to go. They add nothing to the game other than being resource sinks.
• Multishot mods also need to use extra ammo. There is no reason not to equip them now and they basically cheat the ingame ammo system.
• Elemental damage mods should convert existing damage to their element. Something like converting 40% of stock damage to their element while adding 20% bonus (max rank). This would also have the side effect of making the physical damage type mods viable.
• Add skill indexed mods. These mods would replace mods like serration. They would work by awarding advanced use of game mechanics and force players to actually improve their skills instead of just bullet hosing enemies until they die.
• Rework crits. What are crits? Why would there be a % chance of doing more damage? Aren't crits supposed to be extra damage from hitting enemy vitals? Crits would be fine in MMO's with no first person aim, but warframe has that as well as body part damage multipliers. In the end crits serve no purpose other than another flat layer of damage and rewarding headshots.

The other problem are warframe powers. A lot of warframe powers completely disable or outright kill our enemies and for this reason they are supposed to be limited by energy. Powers are supposed to be used sparingly to enhance our play style and get out of tough situations. Unfortunately DE essentially broke their own energy system and now spamming powers has become the norm. It's actually entirely possible to get through non-endless missions without ever using weapons and still do your fair share of damage. Skill spamming also forces DE to give us cheesy enemies to counter our cheese and that's how we got nullifiers, bursas, eximuses,...

So how could DE fix the energy system?

• Nerf efficiency mods. Reducing the cost of skills to 1/4 is the biggest reason why skills are so spammable. What's worse is that this comes with little to no drawbacks which can be countered by duration mods. Efficiency mods are currently the norm since they basically remove the limit on casting. I suggest giving streamline and fleeting expertise more drawbacks and let them do exactly as their names imply. Force the player to decide between a weaker (streamlined) spammable build or more powerful builds.
• Nerf energy vampire. Energy vampire was OP before but with the recent rework of awarding the remaining energy on kill it has become broken. EV should be reverted back to it's original form.
• Rework Trinity. Not only does trinity outperform any other support frame in healing and damage resistance, she can also serve as an infinite energy generator at the same time. And as if that wasn't enough she can also face tank pretty much anything.
• Limit the restores. Limit restores on each revive so the players can't just spam them or give them a cooldown.

So what would the effects of implementing these changes be? For starters the star map would become interesting again. Player skill would actually become a bigger factor which would add more room for growth and increase replayability. Ammo economy and energy management would become important again. Players could choose between modding for physical or elemental damage. DE could remove or nerf cheesy enemies since they would no longer be necessary. Endgame content could be rebalanced so enemies are no longer bullet sponge demigods that players currently don't bother killing if not necessary.

 

I would appreciate any feedback so don't hold back.

Edit: People seem to think that I'm advocating nerfing warframe and weapon damage without addressing the enemy stats, but that couldn't be further from the truth.  What I want is to keep the players engaged and challenged. Camping and spamming skills or cheesing your way through with copious CC and damage resistance is neither fun or engaging. Same goes for enemies with their nullifiers and debuffing auras. So I'm saying both should be rebalanced so players and enemies don't have to keep trying to out cheese each other.

Edit 2: Removing serration and lowering bonuses from elemental mods would only serve to remove insane mod damage scaling. Flat damage mods would be replaced by conditional mods that would only provide their boost by fulfilling their conditions.

  Reveal hidden contents

Mod examples:

• Head hunter ( 30% bonus damage on head shot or 50% bonus damage on head shot but -20% on body shots) drain 9, rarity: rare
• Strafer (40% bonus damage while airborne) drain 9, rarity : rare
• Group killer (exclusive to launchers/ignis)(10% damage boost for every enemy caught in the blast, -20% base damage) drain 9, rarity :rare
• Speed killer ( guns receive a kill counter with a 3 sec cooldown)(every foe slain increases weapon damage for 5% and is capped at 100%) drain 9, rarity : rare
• Wall turret ( 50% bonus damage while wall latching) drain 7, rarity : rare
• Perfectionist ( 40% damage bonus, on miss receive -20% damage for 5s) (hitting dead bodies or over penetrations doesn't count as missing) drain 9, rarity :rare
• Vital strike (at max rank doubles body part difference multipliers (good and bad)) drain 9, rarity : rare

These are just a few examples. I'm sure DE could come up with many more.

 

 

I see your frustration. [DE] Scott said in a recent Devstream (#75, I think) that the one thing he would've done differently when they were creating the game would be to tone down the advantages of mods. Warframe is the only game I know where any upgrade gives a bonus 100% of base anything, and the results get pretty wacky. While this is pretty cool in some ways, there are some drawbacks. It creates a very tiered and elitist weapon system: a difference in base damage 15 points isn't that much, but slapping the same maxed-out Serration on each of them makes the gap between them a lot wider. There also comes the issue of incredibly varied power level: if a Warframe can be made to crank out triple damage, many players aren't going to want to give that up for much of any reason, and so it becomes the only build for most.

When you mention overpowered players, this is something DE is working on for Spectres of the Rail and has done some cool stuff with in recent updates already but will never entirely go away. Since Warframe lets you upgrade to as strong as you want between missions but not during a mission, players stay at a plateau of power and have to wait in endless missions for any modicum of challenge. And these players kind of have to do this in some cases -- Alerts, Invasions and a number of resources are only available in missions levelled at 1-30, when these players are used to playing at levels far beyond that and don't want to intentionally tone down their capabilities to meet the lower-level challenges. (I think it was around Hallowe'en, an event whose missions were all on low-level planets required players to have their loadout below a certain conclave rating so veteran players couldn't make them trivial, but this ended up either messing with player's preferred builds and ruffling their feathers, made players sit and tweak things in their arsenal for too long, or just leave behind a couple weapons altogether and cheese the missions with just one weapon anyway. It got some flak.)

On the other foot, DE has been continually supplying well-equipped players with new skill-testing challenges, namely in U18's Sortie missions. Sorties are hard, impose a variety of limitations and really make the player think, learn and exert some effort. But since these aren't something anyone has to do and frustrate many of the players who really enjoy feeling stupidly overpowered or who don't like remodding to fit certain situations. Sorties are missions that for many take a few tries, and some are incredibly discouraged by failure. There is a fairly large contingent who stay well within their comfort zone, which in Warframe is the same zone as some of the less equipped players, making for some frustrating times in-mission. I can't tell you how many times I've looked forward to a mission I expected a real challenge in or wanted to try and beat stealthily, only for some Tenno decked out in glowing gear to load in and one-shot everything with a Tonkor at a full run. A good fix for this would be improving enemy AI, but I understand that designing this is pretty darn difficult and am willing to wait for this.

Long idea short, there are many ways you can play this game. Among other things, Warframe lets you be stupendously overpowered, and some players really get a kick out of that and only want to play that way. The changes you suggest are pretty interesting, but ultimately I think they'd end up creating a lot of ill will and turning those players off of the game. We don't want that, even if some of those players can get annoying. And also, they'd be too huge a change to the very core of gameplay this late into the IP's history, dampening a lot of the wackiness many of us have come to love. Instead, I would suggest adding your compatible ideas instead of replacing old systems in the game. Warframe is all about being additive: fusing mods, stacking damage, synergizing powers, layering abilities in a squad. I really like your ideas for conditional mods like Perfectionist, and I think these would be great additions to the game. Mods like this would reward players for exploring their abilities and improving their skills whether they already play skillfully or not. But instead of making these a substitute for current easy-to-acquire additional damage, let them act as yet another stack on the damage we already have. This gives incentive to those players who go easy-mode to ramp up their skill by promising yet more bonus damage if they can pull off the cool stuff. This would also help personalize play.

PS: As a regular Zephyr player, I would use the sh*t out of Strafer.

[DatDarkOne]

17 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

I can't tell you how many times I've looked forward to a mission I expected a real challenge in or wanted to try and beat stealthily, only for some Tenno decked out in glowing gear to load in and one-shot everything with a Tonkor at a full run. A good fix for this would be improving enemy AI, but I understand that designing this is pretty darn difficult and am willing to wait for this.

I too have experienced this.  I've developed a solution that works almost every time.  I play the mission which I'm planning to do any of that in Solo mode.  Not saying it's a solution to the issue over all, but it does keep me from being salty about someone screwing up my plans.  Not saying that you're salty or anything like that.  :D  I used this method to great effect in the last shotgun only spy sortie.  hehe

 

P.S.  I bet you really liked those Tennogen skins for Zephyr.  :D

Edited June 19, 2016 by DatDarkOne
added info

[blackheartstar_pc]

28 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

 I really like your ideas for conditional mods like Perfectionist, and I think these would be great additions to the game. Mods like this would reward players for exploring their abilities and improving their skills whether they already play skillfully or not. But instead of making these a substitute for current easy-to-acquire additional damage, let them act as yet another stack on the damage we already have. This gives incentive to those players who go easy-mode to ramp up their skill by promising yet more bonus damage if they can pull off the cool stuff. This would also help personalize play.

Yes! Implemented like this it's an awesome concept.

Edited June 19, 2016 by blackheartstar_pc

[-CM-Emptiness]

6 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

I too have experienced this.  I've developed a solution that works almost every time.  I play the mission which I'm planning to do any of that in Solo mode.  Not saying it's a solution to the issue over all, but it does keep me from being salty about someone screwing up my plans.  Not saying that you're salty or anything like that.  :D  I used this method to great effect in the last shotgun only spy sortie.  hehe

 

P.S.  I bet you really liked those Tennogen skins for Zephyr.  :D

Here's an idea. Challenge concepts similar to the current Nightmare mode.

• Headshot only
• Weapon class lock
• Parkour only
• Ultimate stealth mode - lose if enemies are alarmed
• Race to the finish
• Eximus hell

Maybe limit to Void or something like that. Alternatively, you could have it for all nodes, but in a mode progression manner, or behind MR lock.

 

[DatDarkOne]

6 minutes ago, -CM-Emptiness said:

Here's an idea. Challenge concepts similar to the current Nightmare mode.

• Headshot only
• Weapon class lock
• Parkour only
• Ultimate stealth mode - lose if enemies are alarmed
• Race to the finish
• Eximus hell

Maybe limit to Void or something like that. Alternatively, you could have it for all nodes, but in a mode progression manner, or behind MR lock.

 

You've sparked my interest my dear Tenno.  I placed in bold some of the things I try sometimes in missions.  :D  I like to stealth Capture missions just to see if I can kill the target before he starts running.  That one is really hard due to them having "Spidey sense".  

Edited June 19, 2016 by DatDarkOne
correction

[BlackVortex]

On 15-6-2016 at 3:40 AM, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

I've seen a lot of threads and people commenting about overpowered enemies and their broken scaling, but it almost feels like everyone is just ignoring the pink elephant in the room. Overpowered and cheesy enemies are merely a symptom of another problem.

That problem is that player weapons and powers are way overpowered. Not only is there power creep with each new weapons released, the biggest problem IMO is the weapon modding system. It allows for things like 100x damage increase with the right mods and that's just from weapon mods. Factor in warframe damage boosting abilities and it's easily 1000x damage increase. The result is trivialization of all non endless missions which forces experienced players to either stroll around the map for half an hour so enemies can actually damage them or play sortie and try to out cheese those broken enemies.

 

 

Hi there, welcome to Warframe!

it's always been like this and it's one of the main reasons that I've been playing this game on a daily base for the last 3 years and a bit.

if you don't like the 100x damage increase with the right mods, please, feel free to try another game, but don't try to change the aspects which make this a unique game into something you prefer

[blackheartstar_pc]

10 minutes ago, -CM-Emptiness said:

Here's an idea. Challenge concepts similar to the current Nightmare mode.

• Headshot only
• Weapon class lock
• Parkour only
• Ultimate stealth mode - lose if enemies are alarmed
• Race to the finish
• Eximus hell

Maybe limit to Void or something like that. Alternatively, you could have it for all nodes, but in a mode progression manner, or behind MR lock.

 

This as well is a great idea.

[SenorClipClop]

14 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

I too have experienced this.  I've developed a solution that works almost every time.  I play the mission which I'm planning to do any of that in Solo mode.  Not saying it's a solution to the issue over all, but it does keep me from being salty about someone screwing up my plans.  Not saying that you're salty or anything like that.  :D  I used this method to great effect in the last shotgun only spy sortie.  hehe

 

P.S.  I bet you really liked those Tennogen skins for Zephyr.  :D

You did a Shotgun-only Spy Sortie solo? *Bows*

I know playing Solo would mitigate running into this kind of play, but dammit, I just like playing in squads too much. Don't get me wrong, it's happened a lot that I don't get to play a mission the way I hoped to because of other players, but much more often I'm pleasantly surprised by pug comps and the stuff I get up to with drop-in Tenno. (Favorite so far has been double Resonance Banshee and turning waves of enemies into lava lamps.) For, the good missions have always outweighed the meh.

I do really like dem Tennogen Zephyrs, but I've been putting off the migration to Steam for laziness. One of these days though, that @HitsuSan is gonna make me cave and do the migration and I'll be wondering why I didn't do it sooner.

[DatDarkOne]

1 minute ago, SenorClipClop said:

You did a Shotgun-only Spy Sortie solo? *Bows*

I have Ivara.  So it wasn't as hard as it seems.  I just couldn't kill anything because shotgun was rank 0.  LOL

[notlamprey]

I see a lot of talk in the OP about how to reduce player power, but what about enemy power?

Or is that something to be looked at only after players are no longer able to hang in any of the later-game content?

How long would we have to spend being stomped by later-game enemies and situations, unable to acquire items for ourselves or to trade, while the appropriate adjustments to enemy power are measured and implemented?

Sorry, but I can't buy into any of the OP's suggestions without assurance that he/she understands how the problem might be approached from the other direction. The way forward exists between two extremes, and we need knowledge of both to find our answers.

Edited June 19, 2016 by notlamprey
words are hard

[(XBOX)SlohLane]

all i see here is punishment towards players who have taken the time too learn, create, and effectively use good weapons and mods..

you should get out there and help some new tenno who are always in awe upon seeing what dedication brings too the strength factor..

its like irl, Train hard and you will hit hard.. ppl realy need too stop acting like becoming OP is as easy as login in!

(but then again i did see today someone complain they had too press "A" too many times just too start the game)

 

[MokutoBunshi]

VERY interesting way of seeing things, but you said this at a bad time, only a short while after nerfs with (still) relatively strong enemies... But none the less, good ideas.

 

]\'[

[(XBOX)TheMadCash]

On 6/15/2016 at 4:43 AM, Markerlight said:

How about changing all abilities to have a cooldown and leave energy to be used only for channeling and Quick Thinking?

Mods like Streamline could reduce cooldowns by up to 30%. Bam, done.

Then spam will be no longer be an issue. 

Hell No. Im sorry but power cooldowns is not what makes Warframe, Warframe. This is exactly why I dont like Battleborn.

Edited June 19, 2016 by (XB1)Cash201293

[(XBOX)TheMadCash]

On 6/15/2016 at 5:38 AM, -S-O-Kranker said:

There are enough other games out there. Play another where you cant do it! And yes i have fun oneshooting enemies till 40mins of any survival. And i still have fun till 1h40min where i need more shots to kill heavier units. This game is fine. That overpowerdness is what makes this game to what it is.

I have finally found someone who truely understands Warframe

[Fuzzy-Bunny]

3 hours ago, Btabc said:

And I thought that was added because DE wanted players to have a challenge (or perhaps it was because there are people complaining about how easy it is to "one hit" enemies)?!  Haha

Yeah, it was a real challenge. Nova slowing everything down, vauban CC-ing, Trin supplying energy and health and Mirage boosting damage. And everyone used Tonkors for the "one hit".

4 hours ago, -CM-Emptiness said:

Binary state? Unfortunately, you miss the point that there is a mid-ground somewhere where the above two scenarios do not happen. Nothing can be truly binary with scaling systems.

 Hmm the fabled middle ground that's almost like a rainbow, you can only see it for a very short time. In my experience it's somewhere between 30-55min on T3 survivals.

Quote

How does your intended design cope with scaling? That's why I said to be patient for the rework.

The way it copes with scaling is that players are expected to use multiple conditional mods to achieve the damage boost, rather than just slapping on a bunch of flat damage mods and bullet hosing the enemy.

Quote

From my previous post which you ironically responded to: Why you are discussing weapon changes when clearly we still have enemy-rework and frame-reworks to cover before then?

Reworking only one of them won't solve anything. If only frames are reworked players will focus more on guns. If it's the opposite they will focus more on ability spam...

Quote

It can only be lowered player-survivability or lowered player-damage output. Not both before enemy-rework. Otherwise you aren't being thoughtful for end-game players. I also took the opportunity to look into your Raid statistics:

http://wf.christx.tw/search.php?id=Fuzzy-Bunny

If you don't even participate in the end-game your suggestions affect, I'm afraid you just lost a lot of credibility.

Oh? I wasn't aware that Raids are the only "end-game" "credentials" material. So sorties with higher level enemies don't count anymore?

Quote

 

Now I see you complaining about how weak someone is. Hypocritical much? Instead of just complaining, why don't you create a standard for a new progression system? Increase the MR of Boltor Prime? (Also, how do you know he didn't have Serration?)

Who was complaining? I simply stated what was currently possible. (I asked him.)

Quote

Restores don't cost much because DE wants players to use them much more. It is also a resource-sink for long-time players (yourself included if you amass a lot of resources from playing). My example is still there for you to read, I gather you skipped it on purpose. [Lets say, 1 restore per minute. Each restore is 100 shields. Which is nothing if you are getting shot at. If you aren't getting shot, the regeneration works much quicker.]

ROFL. Are you serious? If DE want's us to use restores like common candy, what is even the point of having attributes like health, energy, ammo, shields? Just make players use "continue" restores every minute if they want to keep playing...

Your example also sucks. It's been a long time since I've ever seen someone spam anything other than Large team restores that restore 300 shields per pulse.

Quote

The needle points both ways. Enemies and players are linked. Mine and others' argument being, if you rework enemy-scaling, players won't feel the need to say, be invisible all the time. They take more risks.

Or reduce player damage and ability spam so the enemy can actually have a chance to return fire before scaling to level 100+

Quote

PS. Bursas, Eximus and Nullifiers are wonderful enemies. It takes a different approach, much like Manics to take them down. This is what I call a challenge. If your idea of challenge lies not with these enemies, but a few more hits to immobile enemies, I see no variety all all. Which leads to boredom.

They wouldn't be immobile because you'd be unable to cheese CC them like you do now. And challenge? 

Bursa- wait for a teammate to pin them down circle around and shoot in the back (like any other moa) or use magnetise and shoot the edge of the bubble.

eximus- headshots...

Nullifiers- use automatic weapons, headshot....

Very complex and challenging

4 hours ago, Yargami said:

- Multishot using up ammo: I really *really* hate this idea and I wish it would stop coming back.

Multishot mods are "free" damage multipliers. They are no better than serration. They have no downside and why do we even have an ammo economy if our core mods are designed to brake it?

Quote

- Skill focused mods would be very welcome. I'm never going to claim to be the most skilled player ever, but having more mods that reward me for thinking while playing would make me happy.

Yes, my whole point was that serration, multishot, elementals,... was a "dumb" way of increasing damage in a game with good gunplay, parkour and interesting powers. It doesn't promote skillful gameplay or varied play styles. If the players wanted to do a lot of damage, they would actually have to be skilled enough to achieve it.

Quote

Energy problems:

- Nerfing efficiency: Not a huge fan of this one. I don't usually do much ability spamming, but I like to have my loadouts so that I use up as little energy as possible with my abilities. Perhaps giving a debuff that raises the cost of that tech (not the other 3) right after you use it? It could start at 50% and fall off over 10 seconds (just example numbers, in-depth balancing would be required).

What is the point of energy economy if energy shortage is never an issue? Just because you're not press 4 to win junkie doesn't mean the other 3 players won't spam the hell out of it. And cooldowns were already tried, but didn't work out.

Quote

- Limiting restores: I would be fine with some limiting, but not extremely long cooldowns (such as the ten minute cooldown on the landing craft abilities). But something so that you can't place more than one of the same type of restore at the same time (and maybe 15-30 seconds afterwards)? That I'd be fine with.

Every 30 seconds? That's 400 bonus energy every 30 seconds. So the energy economy would still be as broken as ever.

Quote

Elemental mods: I would be fine with them converting a % of damage to that element. What I'd really like is for them to focus a bit more on proc % rather than adding pure damage. Stacking elemental mods would increase how much of the damage is converted. If you manage to stack the mods so that they convert more that 100% it would make the weapon deal bonus damage (convert 110% damage would increase the total damage by 10%) but only deal elemental damage. The main problem I can see is that it might get a little complicated with what % of the elemental damage is taken up by what element if you have more than two element types. My thought would instead of making elemental mods convert a % of the damage to the matching element (lightning mod converts 20% of damage to *lightning* damage) make then instead convert damage to generic elemental damage and then split that damage evenly between each element (example: 50% conversion rate with viral and fire damage would come out with fire damage equal to 25% of the base weapon damage and viral damage equal to 25% of the base weapon damage).

Elemental mods wouldn't just convert damage. They would also add a small bonus 20% per mod. The same would go for physical mods. The thought here was to discourage players from slapping 4 elemental mods just for bonus damage. This would also make physical damage builds viable again.

2 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

I see your frustration. [DE] Scott said in a recent Devstream (#75, I think) that the one thing he would've done differently when they were creating the game would be to tone down the advantages of mods. Warframe is the only game I know where any upgrade gives a bonus 100% of base anything, and the results get pretty wacky.

He said that, yet DE still released Primed damage mods. Contradicting much?

Quote

 I really like your ideas for conditional mods like Perfectionist, and I think these would be great additions to the game. Mods like this would reward players for exploring their abilities and improving their skills whether they already play skillfully or not. But instead of making these a substitute for current easy-to-acquire additional damage, let them act as yet another stack on the damage we already have. This gives incentive to those players who go easy-mode to ramp up their skill by promising yet more bonus damage if they can pull off the cool stuff. This would also help personalize play.

Sigh, we don't need player weapons to do even more damage. People can already oneshot level 100 enemies that are merely tickled by warframe damage abilities.

 

Edited June 19, 2016 by Fuzzy-Bunny

[Azrael]

48 minutes ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Oh? I wasn't aware that Raids are the only "end-game" "credentials" material. So sorties with higher level enemies don't count anymore?

Uh, sorry, but they don't. Sortie 3 missions are rarely difficult. Generally they get hard when it's Grineer + Augmented armor, Defense + radiation hazard, etc. but saying "I do sorties so I understand high-level content" is not a very strong argument. Raids (particularly nightmare LoR) require more teamwork and player skill, and are extremely difficult without good CC. Even WITH good CC, nightmare LoR can be very, very hard unless everyone knows exactly what they are doing and are skillful at their job. Min-maxed frames and weapons (but especially frames) are often a must, especially for critical frames like Mirage and Trin. Sorties are between normal starchart missions and raids, and this was stated when they were first introduced. You can argue that you understand high-level content if you do very long T4 survivals or Ceres survivals, but if you only run these for 1 hour or less then you haven't seen high levels.

 

48 minutes ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

eximus- headshots...

Not at high levels. And saying "oh, just get headshots" is not a good argument for these enemies being poorly designed or weak.

 

48 minutes ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

People can already oneshot level 100 enemies that are merely tickled by warframe damage abilities.

This makes me think you haven't played many frames. Many frames have abilities that can kill level 100 units much easier than any weapon. For example, Nova, Excal, Ash, Ivara, Mesa, Banshee (res soundquake), Wukong, Valkyr, Nezha, Atlas, Frost, Nyx, and Saryn all have abilities that can either kill level 100 enemies outright or make them so weak that any weapon can finish them off. Equinox can also do this, and even Ember if you're able to spam accelerant. At extremely high levels, many of these fall off, and well-modded weapons are more reliable, but that generally requires support from warframe powers such as blinds or buffs of some kind (such as Banshee's resonance). Furthermore, most weapons fall off at level 100, so I feel like you based this statement on certain meta weapons such as the Tonkor or Simulor or Lanka.

Overall, I feel like you're missing two points:

1) warframe powers are interesting, powerful, and require skill and knowledge to play properly.

2) There are missions in this game where those powers are absolutely needed, and these missions are still quite hard even if those powers are used skillfully.

 

*Edit: you mentioned that during the alert "everyone used Tonkors for the 'one hit'." Most of my friends rarely use the Tonkor, because it IS kinda OP. But you can't base your opinion of the game off of one overpowered weapon.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Lord_Azrael

[Kjahla81]

I did the challenge alert with my higher MR clanmates and brought Frost who is my strongest frame. How we survived was me spamming 4 with a EV Trin helping. I haven't done much end-game content was because I was trying to learn better tactics and making my weapons stronger without relying on my powers. 

 

One of the reasons I got into WF was because I could use both powers and weapons. I figured that was the point of the game. Hearing that DE might get rid of mods like Serration is kinda sad because I love that. I'm a 6 month player but the chase to me is great. 

I understand where you're coming from OP but it those proposed changes you make seem to take away what makes WF great.

[DatDarkOne]

1 hour ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Sigh, we don't need player weapons to do even more damage. People can already oneshot level 100 enemies that are merely tickled by warframe damage abilities.

Hmmmmm, If I find a weapon that does the same damage my Artemis Bow can do, I'm gonna marry it.  Except for the Tonkor.  I consider that to be a brain-dead, no-skill weapon.

 

 

 

[-CM-Emptiness]

1 hour ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

The way it copes with scaling is that players are expected to use multiple conditional mods to achieve the damage boost, rather than just slapping on a bunch of flat damage mods and bullet hosing the enemy.

No, your intended design was between one-shots and bullet sponges. It relies on a standardized benchmark for enemy-scaling in order to function well [Coming soon]

I also prefer additive design over replacing mandatory mods. Warframe can be partially skill-oriented, but not solely skill-oriented. As for the below:

1 hour ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Sigh, we don't need player weapons to do even more damage. People can already oneshot level 100 enemies that are merely tickled by warframe damage abilities.

Reduce the damage on mandatory mods. There's your solution.

1 hour ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Oh? I wasn't aware that Raids are the only "end-game" "credentials" material. So sorties with higher level enemies don't count anymore?

Neither are Sorties. Your suggestion affects both. So please consider experiencing both.

1 hour ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

ROFL. Are you serious? If DE want's us to use restores like common candy, what is even the point of having attributes like health, energy, ammo, shields? Just make players use "continue" restores every minute if they want to keep playing...

Your example also sucks. It's been a long time since I've ever seen someone spam anything other than Large team restores that restore 300 shields per pulse.

What will restores restore, if there are no attributes?

What situations call for effective use of restores, if limits are placed e.g. cool-down of 1 per minute?

I also used that example since not everyone has access to Cephalon Syndicate rewards.

You think restores can be used carelessly... They are last-resorts and alternatives to abilities. If you have a healer, why use restores? If you have EV, why use restores? If you can regenerate shields, why use restores? If you have none of these and no revives, restores are the answer.

1 hour ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Or reduce player damage and ability spam so the enemy can actually have a chance to return fire before scaling to level 100+

Which will make higher-level content more difficult than already is. For your information, Bosses are quite large bullet sponges with high damage capabilities, immune to CC and status. Making it take 10-20 minutes to kill does more bad than good. I will say it again:

If you rework enemy-scaling first, players won't feel the need to say, be invisible all the time. They take more risks. If you don't, the gap in difficulty between players and enemies is increased, especially in end-game. Keep in mind both reworks need to happen, I'm talking about the order.

1 hour ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

They wouldn't be immobile because you'd be unable to cheese CC them like you do now. And challenge? 

Bursa- wait for a teammate to pin them down circle around and shoot in the back (like any other moa) or use magnetise and shoot the edge of the bubble.

eximus- headshots...

Nullifiers- use automatic weapons, headshot....

Very complex and challenging

Bursa - Stomp chain-knockdown. Nullifier mini-bubble.

Eximus - Various auras. Fire knockdown, Toxin health depletion (scales). Frost slowdown (stacks).

Nullifiers - Target Prioritizing.

Your suggestion:

Braton --> 3 Headshots --> Dead Lancer = Challenge.

[Provide your own examples if you don't like mine].

Edited June 19, 2016 by -CM-Emptiness