Who do you think is the most poorly designed frame so far?

[Azamagon]

I feel MOST, if not ALL Warframes are a bit badly designed, at least in terms of:

* Kit synergy (meaning natural synergy á la Loki, in contrast to forced synergy (or rather: dependancy) á la Saryn)

* Kit versatility (as in; Can you do many things with your kit? Can you be creative and use any ability in more than one particular way? Are all skills useful in multiple occassions? Are all skills different enough (as a contrast to having internal kit redundancy issues)?) (All those things are probably the biggest issues for most Warframes, imo)

* Kit reliability (as in, are the effects something you can rely on, something you have control over, or is it subject to the horrors of RNG?)

* Smoothness of use (things like recastability/end-early-ability, onehanded casting, castable midair, casting speeds etc)

* Helpfulness to the team (opposite example being Limbo overall, often even when meaning well he can be very detrimental)

* Power stat scaling (meaning, is each ability balanced to be affected by ALL stats: Strength, Range, Duration and Efficiency?)

Those that I feel are the worst in this regard (Note: Wether they are STRONG is irrelevant):
* Limbo
* Hydroid
* Oberon
* Equinox
* Zephyr
* Chroma
* Wukong
(If you feel any of these don't fit, ask me and I'll explain more thoroughly why I think these all have major issues)
 

Those that I feel have the LEAST amount of problems in these regards :
* Loki (not without some minor design flaws, but still probably the one I'd call the BEST designed one in the game)
* Frost (honestly, his #2 (and #1 to some extent) are almost making me wanna remove him from this list. But he is SO close to being well designed)
* Rhino (just recasting issues of his #2 and #3, otherwise he is actually surprisingly well designed)

The rest have a bunch of issues, but not enough for them to be deemed "garbage design tier" in my eyes.

That said however, all Warframes CAN function at least decently if you handle them well (for example: Despite Hydroid's annoying RNG-problems, I still find him relatively fun).
But there are many of the Warframes and their abiltiies which have too many annoying flaws and/or too much clunkiness to them, something that could be fixed if they all got a touch of well-thought out perfectionism in them.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Azamagon
Added more 'frames to the lists

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, MacabreHaze said:

The healing ability might be a little better if you could like, perhaps see the HP of other frames.

PSA, there is a function in game for this, has been for a couple of years now, where a press of a key will show your allies status on your HUD right under your own and your kubrow/sentinel's status. You can have it on by default if you set it up in the options, rather than turning it on manually.

[MacabreHaze]

3 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

PSA, there is a function in game for this, has been for a couple of years now, where a press of a key will show your allies status on your HUD right under your own and your kubrow/sentinel's status. You can have it on by default if you set it up in the options, rather than turning it on manually.

Ah thanks! 

[RealPandemonium]

9 hours ago, Thaylien said:

It takes a modicum of skill to play Loki effectively. It takes a great deal more, plus situational awareness and team awareness, to play him excellently.

Loki wins at the arsenal screen.  There's nothing to pressing 2 every 15 seconds and pressing 4 to make all enemies in a 50m radius effectively useless forever.

Edited June 22, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[(PSN)Tomplexthis]

Inaros

hes just so garbage

 

Even oberon is better than Inaros,

But now its like the lowest worst frames are, Inaros - Mag - Oberon

Just mag... like she is just unplayable anymore  T T

[(PSN)Tomplexthis]

People say limbo, but gennerally i like him

Banish should be an Aoe bullet, that traps any allies/enemies within its range in the void

Allowing him to better use his other abilities, more control

*Probably aim at allies, and any allies nearby get rifted

*Aim at enemies, and any enemies nearby get rifted, like within 12m - 15m

Rift walk and Rift surge should be combined into one thing

Putting himself in the void an giving him surges benefits

 

His ult stays the same, but he would need a new 3rd power

What if he could leave Void sphere traps that explode?

Like he places a void mine that explodes with void damage energy when an enemy comes near it

 

Or he could have a void disarm, a radial void disarm that explodes nearby enemy weapons, deals void damage

 

Maybe he could bend the gravitational forces and knock down all nearby enemies, and trap them to the floor

With a aoe gravity effect?

Like a circular ring of gravity that deals void damage over time, and forces all enemies to be knocked down, unable to move for 8 seconds

 

Something cool though.

 

[Sar.K.Asmus]

On 19.6.2016 at 10:03 PM, ShardsSuperior said:

Loki.

He was fine before Corrupted mods, but now, he's the literal embodiment of cheese. You can Invis walk throughout an entire mission without touching a single enemy. You can reduce every single enemy in the game to the same state - melee units with varying amounts of HP.

With the current look against player cheese, I don't understand why Loki hasn't been under fire.

I can do everything you described with Loki without using even one corrupted mod. Just saying.

[AcceI]

Gameplay:

 

Ash is boring.  

Loki is boring.  

Hydroid is lackluster.  

Limbo is a total joke.

 

Stats:  

 

Any frame that has 15 armor.

 

Visuals: 

 

Banshee

Nova Prime

Chroma

Limbo again by miles on this one.

Trinity

Premium loki

 

Edited June 22, 2016 by AcceI

[Zoracraft]

3 Huge instances: 

Limbo (obvious)

Mirage

Oberon

Lets start with limbo. First of all, the cast time on every ability except cataclysm should be zero. As of now, it take around a second for him to enter the rift, and .5 seconds to punch an enemy into the rift per enemy. He also has the generic, paper thin survivability of a caster, making him easy to kill at high levels when he actually needs to cast to stay alive. Also, nullifies absolutely ruin his day, somehow warping space and time to pull Limbo's $&@ out of the rift when he enters the bubble. Of all warframe abilities affected by nullies, Limbo's rift abilities being affected makes zero sense. He needs rift surge to just be part of the stats of rift walk (so it's still moddable), and to get a new ability that allows him to get some actual CC (perhaps keeping the name rift surge, but with the damage aspect being part of rift walk, the ability would now auto knockdown enemies in the rift every 5 seconds (inversely affected by duration)

Now Mirage. With her prism's blind gutted, she has zero value at high levels. Excalibur now has the same blind (minus being throwable, but aiming to get the ball in the right spot would get mirage killed anyways), Chroma has a way better damage buff than her, and is as tanky as inaros. Sleight of hand is a joke ability, both literally and figuratively (she plays pranks on people, it's kind of a joke), and eclipse is affected by the same problem as overload was: being governed by the environment. The real problem with Mirage is that her abilities are more scattered than an ADHD squirrel on energy drinks. Her first is a damage buff with some unreliable mobile cover to boot. Her second is trash: laying one time use boobytraps that can end up shooting her in the foot later on (converting ammo to mines is a terrible idea, don't do it). Her third is the bright point in her kit, ideally allowing her to gain evasion or damage. However, it usually does one or the other per mission, and you don't always know which it will do. Her ult lost it's one unique feature: non LOS blinding. Now, it's a ult with a huge cast time, non scaling damage, and constantly moves so you can't lock down an area with it. To make her kit more cohesive, I have a few ideas. I want to give her both damage and survivability, making her a little like chroma, not with damage reduction, but ways of not getting hit at all. Her one will have one humorous change: the size of her clones grows whenever they or mirage deal damage (up to a maximum of 4x size), therefore giving her more cover the more damage she does. One can also be recasted to preserve the size buff and to extend the effects of the augment. Her two will now additionally have a blind lasting 10 seconds by default with a range of 15 meters with a new blind of the same stats originating at every item effected by the ability (allowing her some pseudo LOS blind bypassing while being more restrained than old blinding mirage). Her eclipse gets the ivara treatment, allowing her to switch the ability mechanics by holding the ability key, and use the selected ability when the key is simply pressed. Prism now can use the conclave mod, has a buffed default duration, and stuns enemies struck by the lasers via electric proc (they are lasers after all). With these changes, Mirage has more ways to stay alive at high levels without trivializing her foes.

Finally, Oberon. On paper, Oberon is great. However, in practice he has many weird mechanics that gimp his effectiveness. These changes will hopefully fix these mechanics, such as renewal ending prematurely upon full heal and hallowed ground's unreliable armor buff. Firstly, his one's bouncing spheres will effectively recast smite for free if they hit an enemy, making more spheres to hit more enemies and cause more rad procs (Graphic quality of these secondary spheres may have to be lowered in order to avoid lag broblems). Hallowed Ground's armor buff is now 300+50% of current target armor, with multiple casts stacking these bonuses. It also by default now lasts 40 seconds.

As an example, let's say a frame with 100 armor steps on 3 hallowed grounds that have no power strength modification. The first bumps his armor to 100+300+(100x.5)=450. Hallowed ground 2 now bumps his armor to 450+300+(450x.5)=975 armor. Hallowed ground 3 now bumps the armor to 975+300+(975x.5)=1762.5 armor. To put that in perspective, each 300 armor effectively adds another set of your health to your warframe. This frame had 100 armor, so it has 1.333 times as much effective health as actual listed health. With the help of our friendly neighborhood Oberon, this frame now has 1762.5 armor, giving it 6.875 times as much effective health as listed health.

Pretty awesome, right?

Renewal now is a full toggle with none of the projectile tomfoolery it has now. Now, it heals your entire team constantly, and doesn't deactivate on anyone if they full heal. The energy consumption is increased while the ability is actually healing, making it so Oberon can't just act as a blank check of insurance for his team if they get reckless. Instead, he can use rage to become a battle healer that can shrug off scratch damage, but has to worry about high one shot damage, since renewal doesn't give damage reduction (although hallowed ground does, offering synergy). The bleedout reduction buff causes oberon's energy to drain as if it were healing. Finally, reckoning allows for repeat knockdowns if targets getting up from reckoning are hit by smite or its spheres, allowing Oberon much needed CC when enemies don't die from reckoning. This repeat knockdown could go on until the enemy fully recovers.

 

Please tell me your thoughts, as I think these changes would greatly improve these warframes' capabilities in high level.

[vinx909]

6 hours ago, AcceI said:

Any frame that has 15 armor.

sorry, have you tried nyx? she is amazing with just 15 armor. sure, you don't want to get hit, but that is easy as F***. keep chaos up, and should your shields go down go into absorb.

currently she does have 1 piece of horrible design. her @(*()$ passive, if you want me to rant more on that

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

15 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

Loki wins at the arsenal screen.  There's nothing to pressing 2 every 15 seconds and pressing 4 to make all enemies in a 50m radius effectively useless forever.

That's bull and you know it, at the point where the difficulty has ramped up enough that guns on enemies are a genuine threat to your team's survival in a mission, the melee is then almost as dangerous and if you're not running a 4x Corrosive Projection, the armour is enough to let them get close and use it. If you can't kill those enemies before they hit a target, they'll still kill any defense/rescue NPC or pod or console in seconds, and any non-tank frame in one or two hits. Testing shows that the Lvl 1. base damage is only 60, but doubles to 120 if they use the jab ability, and ramps up per level until it can do over 900 by the time you hit actual high levels, enough to kill quite a lot of frames in, as I said, one or two hits.

Yes Loki is invisible, but if he's spending all his time picking people up because they aren't surviving waves of tanky melee enemies, he's not actually making the game easier, just delaying the inevitable.

And how about Nullifiers and Nul Combas, you can't disarm them, you can't Invis near them, you're back to weapon damage only, meanwhile your team is getting sniped by everything under the Nullifier bubble, or chased down by a deranged hover-skater.

I'm not saying that this powerful ability of his won't get some re-balancing, nor am I convinced he doesn't deserve it, I'm arguing that he's not a badly designed frame just because of what he's capable of.

Just because a good player can use him to make the game easier, doesn't change how well his abilities fit together, how much awareness of the game is needed to play him at high level or how much a bad player can drag down a team. There are dozens of times when players can, do, and should take other frames and other frames are actually more applicable to the mission to play as.

Especially when other combinations of warframes can do that just a well. A CC Frost, a Pacify Equinox, a Creeping Terrify Nekros and a Slow Nova on their own or as a combo can make missions like VIP Defense, Mobile Defense, Excavation and Interception the most easy missions in the game, because their slow abilities affect every enemy regardless of level, and if you combo them they can stack with each other.

I would personally pick up Saryn, work up the combos on her for tens of thousands of damage, or I'd take Banshee for her damage buffing and use her to level weapons, I'd take Zephyr and enjoy my near immunity to ranged attacks, for fun I'll pick up Atlas and spend a mission punching things in the face.

Warframes are fun to play with for variety, but because of how different each one is and the different roles each one plays, there will always, always be one or two that people consider essential for high level play.

I wouldn't leave for a long-run void or OD Defense without my AMD Nova build for smashing down the crowds, while others wouldn't go to a Defense without their Frost.

The fact that Loki, a zero-offense, low-defense, stealth and support-cc frame, can be used to make a team go further and better, does not negate that his presentation, how his abilities work together, his role in a team and his ability to solo on stealth missions are all because he is a well designed frame. Definitely better designed than the dozen or so that populate the ranks of 'badly designed' frames in the game people are arguing about in this thread already.

[ShardsSuperior]

16 hours ago, The-Tective said:

I can do everything you described with Loki without using even one corrupted mod. Just saying.

Okay, let's do some math - specifically about the Invisibility running through missions and ignoring enemies.

Before corrupted mods, Efficiency was capped at 130% and Duration at 130%/158%, depending on whether we also count Nightmare mods or not.

That's 35 energy for 16s/19s Invisibility. Before corrupted mods, that's a 2.2/1.8 energy/second. The most energy you can get at that time as a solo player (pre U10.3) was 0.6/s from your Energy Siphon. You cannot keep Invisibility up, and just run through missions without a care. 

Now, with the Corrupted mods, you get can 175% efficiency with 232% duration. That's 12.5 energy for 28 seconds - 0.4 energy/second.

On the other hand, if you look at Radial Disarm. Before corrupted Mods, it was 70 energy for a 26 m radius, which honestly is not very impressive, but it gives enough control to the battlefield for a quick cleanup.

 

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

That's bull and you know it, at the point where the difficulty has ramped up enough that guns on enemies are a genuine threat to your team's survival in a mission, the melee is then almost as dangerous and if you're not running a 4x Corrosive Projection, the armour is enough to let them get close and use it. If you can't kill those enemies before they hit a target, they'll still kill any defense/rescue NPC or pod or console in seconds, and any non-tank frame in one or two hits. Testing shows that the Lvl 1. base damage is only 60, but doubles to 120 if they use the jab ability, and ramps up per level until it can do over 900 by the time you hit actual high levels, enough to kill quite a lot of frames in, as I said, one or two hits.

Yes Loki is invisible, but if he's spending all his time picking people up because they aren't surviving waves of tanky melee enemies, he's not actually making the game easier, just delaying the inevitable.

And how about Nullifiers and Nul Combas, you can't disarm them, you can't Invis near them, you're back to weapon damage only, meanwhile your team is getting sniped by everything under the Nullifier bubble, or chased down by a deranged hover-skater.

First of all, at least three-quarters of the frames have abilities that trivialize melee enemies. Without swarm-based auras like the infested have, I'm not sure how any melee enemy can kill a competent player who can just Bullet jump away and knock down everything in his wake.

And weapon damage is pretty high. You can either jump into the Nullifier bubble and oneshot the Nullifier, or you can stand outside the bubble and chip it down with a focused burst and then shoot the Nullifier. (According to the Wiki), none of the Combas/Scrambus will stop Radial Disarm. And honestly, it's not that hard to hit that helmet and disable the aura, even when their levels make them really tanky.

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

The fact that Loki, a zero-offense, low-defense, stealth and support-cc frame, can be used to make a team go further and better, does not negate that his presentation, how his abilities work together, his role in a team and his ability to solo on stealth missions are all because he is a well designed frame. Definitely better designed than the dozen or so that populate the ranks of 'badly designed' frames in the game people are arguing about in this thread already.

First of all, zero-offense frames do not exist when most of your damage comes from weapons.

There are different types of bad design. Just like how Trinity's EV trivializes energy economy, Loki trivializes enemy weapons and the enemies themselves. That's bad design.

[bad4youLT]

all this people who say Limbo is worst , limbo is the king of rescue mobile defense and sortie defense , seriuosly if limbo is playyed right hes amazing

[Sar.K.Asmus]

16 minutes ago, ShardsSuperior said:

Okay, let's do some math - specifically about the Invisibility running through missions and ignoring enemies.

Before corrupted mods, Efficiency was capped at 130% and Duration at 130%/158%, depending on whether we also count Nightmare mods or not.

That's 35 energy for 16s/19s Invisibility. Before corrupted mods, that's a 2.2/1.8 energy/second. The most energy you can get at that time as a solo player (pre U10.3) was 0.6/s from your Energy Siphon. You cannot keep Invisibility up, and just run through missions without a care. 

Now, with the Corrupted mods, you get can 175% efficiency with 232% duration. That's 12.5 energy for 28 seconds - 0.4 energy/second.

Primed Continuity +55% duration, Constitution +28% duration (you specifically said corrupted mods not nightmare mods, not primed mods) = +21,7 invisibility duration

Streamline +30% efficiency + Arcane Essence Helmet + 15% efficiency ( again not a corrupted mod) = +45% efficiency => Invisibility Power Cost = 27,5 Energy

That means with Primed Flow you are invisble all the time in any non endless mission. In endless Missions the whole efficiency thing doesn't matter when the Energy Leacher appear and you have to throw energy pizzas.

So again invisible all the time with and without corrupted mods.

As for Radial Disarm, if i am invisible i don't ned to disarm enemies.

And again without corrupted mods Stretch +45% Range + Cunning Drift +15% Range = + 60% Range => 32 m radius and that is 64 m diameter. Basicly stand in the middle of the room and disarm everyone. And again +45% efficiency means 55 Energy per cast on Radial Disarm.

JUST AS FYI.

 

 

Edited June 22, 2016 by The-Tective

[ShardsSuperior]

1 hour ago, The-Tective said:

Primed Continuity +55% duration, Constitution +28% duration (you specifically said corrupted mods not nightmare mods, not primed mods) = +21,7 invisibility duration

Streamline +30% efficiency + Arcane Essence Helmet + 15% efficiency ( again not a corrupted mod) = +45% efficiency => Invisibility Power Cost = 27,5 Energy

That means with Primed Flow you are invisble all the time in any non endless mission. In endless Missions the whole efficiency thing doesn't matter when the Energy Leacher appear and you have to throw energy pizzas.

So again invisible all the time with and without corrupted mods.

As for Radial Disarm, if i am invisible i don't ned to disarm enemies.

And again without corrupted mods Stretch +45% Range + Cunning Drift +15% Range = + 60% Range => 32 m radius and that is 64 m diameter. Basicly stand in the middle of the room and disarm everyone. And again +45% efficiency means 55 Energy per cast on Radial Disarm.

JUST AS FYI.

Ah. So we're arguing semantics now. I specifically said: "before Corrupted Mods." Corrupted Mods, introduced in update 10.3 predate Primed Mods and especially Drift mods (but not Nightmare Mods like Constitution, which is why I included that in my calculations). As for Arcane Essence Helm, good catch.

But, that's beside the point. The difference after U10.3 is still huge. Energy drain for Invisibility went down by a factor of 2x - 3x, while Radial Disarm also got a doubled radius - which is 4x the area.

And the most interesting point from your post: "As for Radial Disarm, if i am invisible i don't ned to disarm enemies."
That just kinda shows how broken Loki's design is, doesn't it?

Edited June 22, 2016 by ShardsSuperior

[Sar.K.Asmus]

11 minutes ago, ShardsSuperior said:

Ah. So we're arguing semantics now. I specifically said: "before Corrupted Mods." Corrupted Mods, introduced in update 10.3 predate Primed Mods and especially Drift mods (but not Nightmare Mods like Constitution, which is why I included that in my calculations). As for Arcane Essence Helm, good catch.

But, that's beside the point. The difference after U10.3 is still huge. Energy drain for Invisibility went down by a factor of 2x - 3x, while Radial Disarm also got a doubled radius - which is 4x the area.

And the most interesting point from your post: "As for Radial Disarm, if i am invisible i don't ned to disarm enemies."
That just kinda shows how broken Loki's design is, doesn't it?

So we are talking about the game before U10.3? I agree that some things actually broke the game and highly reduced the difficulty in any mission type for example because Fleeting Expertisse and now all frames can spam the abilities (of course there is still EV Trin if you don't use it). But it didn't made Loki a cheese frame. He could do the same things before but not as efficient as now.

Edited June 22, 2016 by The-Tective

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, ShardsSuperior said:

 

 

First of all, at least three-quarters of the frames have abilities that trivialize melee enemies. Without swarm-based auras like the infested have, I'm not sure how any melee enemy can kill a competent player who can just Bullet jump away and knock down everything in his wake.

-snip-

First of all, zero-offense frames do not exist when most of your damage comes from weapons.

First first of all: Loki doesn't. That was a thing I was trying to say. Then there's the fact that it's not just frames, it's defense VIP's, pods, consoles and so on, that a bum-rush of enemies all swinging melee because they can't shoot, does happen and can get through. Bullet jumping is a thing, yes, well done, doesn't stop a badly timed evasion or a heavy unit's knockdown smash when you're trying to kill something else. It does happen. It's happened often enough when I've been playing Loki in a team and I've been the one having to go pick them all up again (thank RNG'sus for Vazarin during the more recent times).

You can jump right into a nullifier bubble, wonderful, you're now visible until you kill him and re-cast. I pointed out that you need weapons as a factor limiting his abilities and balancing out his skill set. He has to rely on them, he can't do everything, for everyone, all the time. Just because he's good at what he does, doesn't make him badly designed overall, I argue that it makes him better designed since his skills are all en-mode and need to be used correctly for best effect.

Second first of all: Yes, weapon damage can be good. But we're talking about a game where a frame like Nova can use that gun to instead churn out 400k damage every 3-4 seconds. That's something no weapon can do. Absorb, if charged by a team, can hit 300k easily.

Loki is one of the few frames that has absolutely no ability to directly affect enemies offensively. He can defensively remove their guns and defensively soft cc those same units there-after, he can divert aggro to a Decoy, he can switch teleport. Even Zephyr has Dive Bomb and Tornado, even if those are comparatively very bad abilities. Trinity can, with a long duration build, lock down CC a target for a given amount of time, and I would argue that Zenurik trivialises energy while EV is at least a little balanced, since with EV you actively have to seek a target and ensure your allies are within range.

I still don't see how anything you, or the guy before, makes him badly designed. Powerful, yes, maybe too powerful and in need of a nerf, but not badly designed, especially when that design was created when the game was created, and is somehow still useful after three years of game dev and changes that have managed to marginalise dozens of other frames created since. They buffed his energy efficiency and his range at some point in the past, but that's about it. If he was badly designed, he would have flat out been forgotten and been on the list of re-work frames by now.

A powerful frame does not mean a badly designed one, powerful ones can be nerfed, badly designed frames have to be re-worked.

[RealPandemonium]

4 minutes ago, The-Tective said:

So we are talking about the game before U10.3? I agree that some things actually broke the game and highly reduced the difficulty in any mission type for example because Fleeting Expertisse and all frames could spam the abilities (of course there is still EV Trin if you don't use it). But it didn't made Loki a cheese frame. He could do the same things before but not as efficient as now.

There's a big deal of difference between invis uptime and RD efficacy before and after Corrupted mods.  There's also no doubt that the current balance mess in Warframe is in large part due to DE releasing radically game-changing mods and then just letting them be and ignoring the balance component and egregious edge cases for literal years.  Instead of weakly seconding Limbo earlier in the thread, I should have said that a lot of frames are fundamentally poorly designed now because the core systems are rotten, game-wide.  

9 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

snips

As long as the pool of available mods stays the way it is, Loki will strictly be abused for free melee damage and quasi immortality on 2, speedrunning and [poorly] cheating on stealth-type missions (spy/rescue/reactor sabotage) with 1/3, and making all enemies on the map impotent with 4.  The argument that melee enemies still pose a threat doesn't really hold water; competent players can backpedal them indefinitely and if they're able to swarm a defense target and kill it before you can kill them, you were outclassed equipment-wise in the first place (hell, I was able to prevent full waves from substantially hurting the pod for minutes at a time in T4 defence in one run just by spamming decoys and slamming an unranked Jat Kittag to fling them away.)

One could argue now that Switch Teleport and decoy made much more sense back in the day when Warframe wasn't as much of a horde game; contrast to now where they are only used for the teleportation gimmick (especially since this is trivial with 75% power efficiency.)  The other two powers can be (and are) literally spammed to turn off gameplay. Originally Invis was intended as a temporary aid to escape trouble or to aid in melee DPS/create an advantageous offensive situation; not quasi-immortality with a practically passive melee boost.  RD was supposed to be used to neutralize dangerous clusters of enemies or as a panic button when things get nasty, but now it's a guaranteed get out of jail free card at best and a proactive game-trivialization tool at worst.  

[CrimsonDalekanium]

On 6/21/2016 at 2:53 PM, Azamagon said:

I feel MOST, if not ALL Warframes are a bit badly designed, at least in terms of:

* Kit synergy (meaning natural synergy á la Loki, in contrast to forced synergy (or rather: dependancy) á la Saryn)

* Kit versatility (as in; Can you do many things with your kit? Can you be creative and use any ability in more than one particular way? Are all skills useful in multiple occasions? Are all skills different enough (as a contrast to having internal kit redundancy issues)?) (All those things are probably the biggest issues for most Warframes, imo)

* Kit reliability (as in, are the effects something you can rely on, something you have control over, or is it subject to the horrors of RNG?)

* Smoothness of use (things like recastability/end-early-ability, onehanded casting, castable midair, casting speeds etc)

* Helpfulness to the team (opposite example being Limbo overall, often even when meaning well he can be very detrimental)

* Power stat scaling (meaning, is each ability balanced to be affected by ALL stats: Strength, Range, Duration and Efficiency?)

Those that I feel are the worst in this regard (Note: Whether they are STRONG is irrelevant):
*snip*
* Chroma?????

(If you feel any of these don't fit, ask me and I'll explain more thoroughly why I think these all have major issues)
 

I feel Chroma is probably in the top 1/3 of well designed frames. Certainly behind those such as Loki and Frost, but above those such as Limbo and Hydroid.

Chroma is one of the embodiments of kit versatility. You can have essentially 4 different frames by changing the energy color. Admittedly, you are then stuck in that color for the mission, but that's a result of planning (poor or good). 

His 2 and 3 synergize extremely well, and his 4 can be used as either a decoy or a turret while you slaughter the enemy with your damage buff from vex armor and speed buffs from your pelt. Chroma is admittedly not usually built to be a team player, but when he is, his buffs are almost always appreciated. His 2 and 3 can be cast midair, and you don't want to cast 1 in midair anyways. I think all 4 of his abilities are affected by strength, duration, and efficiency, while only his 2 is affected by range. I can't think of anybody who complains when they see my loadout (for nearly any sortie mission) and see I'm bringing Chroma. And they certainly aren't complaining when I'm picking them up in a sea of sapper orbs. You can mod Chroma for durability buffs, damage, healing, or even credit farming. 

Chroma's 1 is certainly lackluster, I wish his 2 was a one-handed ability, and he needs an ACTUAL passive. Saying chroma changing colors is a passive is crazy. It's a FEATURE. A passive is a nice little bonus, but chroma would be nearly completely crippled without his color changing ability.

[Stratego89]

I'm going with Equinox. She has so much potential. She has ALL the right stuff- it's just thrown together poorly. First change that needs to happen is her 1 swap needs to keep her 3rd and 4th skills active between swaps (adapting to the correct skills when she swaps) so that her swapping can go from being a useless gimmick no one uses to a tactical advantage that makes the frame unique like it was supposed to be. After that mend needs to change how it functions entirely. IMO it should drain the points you store over time and heal you over time in addition to the bulk heal when you deactivate. Mend is just too underpowered when compared to maim- not to mention when compared to the various other healing abilities and options in game.

 

EDIT: On second thought- let's put equinox at #2. At least she has the right stuff she's just clunky to the point where it hurts THAT bad.

The REAL #1 most poorly designed frame is Zephyr. For her time she was decently designed but now she's a relic. Her "flight" is almost worthless from parkour 2.0. The way it functions needs a revamp. I'm not on the boat of people that say she should go all archwing mode. Instead I think it should be a "hold" button that just gives her forward propulsion in the direction she is looking so that you have more control and can actually FLY around instead of just air-dashing. Additionally her dive bomb needs to be removed from the current slot- and just mixed into her flight ability so that when she aims down and TAPS instead of holds, it dive bombs rather than "flying". This frees up space for a brand new skill to help her very bland kit. Tornadoes needs a major rework so that it doesn't simply make a mess of the battlefield hurting her more than it helps. Her turbulence is fine as it is- but I feel it should be moved to her 3 slot for 75 energy considering how powerful it is. I have no clue for her new 2 but I feel it should be offensively oriented.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Stratego89

[Buttaface]

1. Zephyr, Parkour changes came in ages ago and disgraceful that there are still no changes to this frame. The ult is lousy and annoying, augments other than jet stream very uninspired.

2. Limbo, nuff said.

3. Chroma, cash farmer, as much as people say other frames do everything better than Oberon, it's really Chroma that fits that bill. Inaros pretty much outclassed Chroma in every way. Chroma needs toggle love similar to the way nezha is set up

4. Banshee, but only with the new Soundquake augment as a build, deplorable design choice here, what the h were they thinking? "Let's turn Banshee into a troll frame?" Banshee is one of my faves otherwise.

5. Wukong, Very limited team utility and skills that don't dovetail together in a cohesive way.

I couldn't disagree more with people who think Nekros is badly designed, but understand how they make that mistake as I used to also. Then I made a terrify build BEFORE the new augment. With some of the newer mods and creative builds and focus, Nekros is one of the strongest frames in the game currently.

Oberon is better than many frames at many things. Kills trash up to high levels, creates Chaos via radiation CC, offers decent healing... all they really need to do to fix oberon is make his 3 instant to all teammates and make his carpets a toggle.

I think most of the warframes are ugly visually, and that the game leans waaaaay too femme in aesthetics generally. Anyone who disagrees with the femme part pull out any but two of your sniper rifles (Lanka and Vulkar) and look through the scope. What are we playing, "Power Puff Girls In Space?" I feel like that sometimes, and looky, we got a magic dusty sprinkly fairy frame next. O joy. I think Mirage and Hydroid are particularly eye-hurting ugly also. Just one man's opinion.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Buttaface

[CrimsonDalekanium]

5 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

*snip*

3. Chroma, cash farmer, as much as people say other frames do everything better than Oberon, it's really Chroma that fits that bill. Inaros pretty much outclassed Chroma in every way. Chroma needs toggle love similar to the way nezha is set up

*snip*

DE can keep channeling far, far, FAR away from Chroma's second and third abilities. Chroma also gets a crazy damage buff in his tank build. Does Inaros?

 

Chroma might be only of the worst frames without any forma. But once you invest forma in him, it all comes together beautifully.

Edited June 22, 2016 by CrimsonDalekanium

[Birdframe_Prime]

53 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

-snip-

Look, you've successfully managed to derail this conversation so it's about Loki's viability in game and whether he's under-powered or over-powered. Congratulations, you've missed the point.

Still a good design. Still better designed than half the frames in the game.

A high power in game does not equal bad design if you're supposed to, and are encouraged and able to, use all of his abilities effectively and consistently to produce the result intended for the frame and for the gameplay. Loki was intended as an enemy debuffer and stealth frame, he does it well, and helps out teams by doing so and can go solo by actively using all his abilities in concert. These abilities are powerful, but they do not actively blitz wave after wave of enemy, it debuffs them so that your team and your weapons can. It is team oriented and survivable, and I admit it's powerful.

That is not a bad design, that is a good design allowed to become over powered.

On the other hand, a badly designed frame is used for a single gimmick (at best), is only useful for that one gimmick and people are, by the way the game currently functions, encouraged to only use that gimmick in order to profit.

Mag's Polarise, scaling damage that could nuke enemies at any level, Trinity's infinite range and 99.9% damage reduction to all allies, Valkyr's infinite invincibility at incredibly cheap energy cost, Ash's Bladestorm hitting up to 18 enemies with 20k damage that ignores armour over five seconds and Saryn's Miasma hitting for 10k in an instant both with a single press. These are/were not functioning as intended with the game, they are/were gimmicks that are exploitable and need/ed to be addressed. That is bad design, because the abilities don't just out-class other tactics in the game, they outclass the other abilities on the frame, they become the meta, they become the sole reason to use that frame.

Other badly designed frames are ones that do not do anything they were intended to do at the level they should do, either mechanically or in functionality. Oberon is supposed to have a healing/damage balance, except his damage is weak, his buff/anti-debuff encourages people not to use their mobility and to cluster up (counter to game logic that says they're free-roaming up to 50m if you want Affinity), his heal is only effective if you somehow psychically predict when your team-mate is going to get hit for massive damage and cast in time for your heal to reach him, and then drains you for as long as it's active or until they hit max health, and his 4 is supposed to balance healing with damage by dropping health orbs on killed enemies, but caps out in damage so it can almost never kill them, it works best as a temporary CC at higher levels, much like his 1. Limbo is supposed to be a master of the Rift plane, but his abilities are limited to 'go there and come back' 'make one other thing go there or come back' 'gain damage while there' and 'send a whole area there', it works on paper, but not in practice, and using Cataclysm defensively is usually useless since most enemies have to enter into it to be killed, but can in turn kill you, compared to Frost's bubble which you and allies can shoot out of.

Again, Over/Under Powered does not equal Bad Design. Gimmicks that encourage ignoring the frame's other abilities and functionality/mechanic issues that prevent you using the frame as intended are bad design. Also, this is supposed to include Visual design and Conceptual design, which a lot of people have been missing. 

Please argue the point, not what you think it might be.

[Buttaface]

34 minutes ago, CrimsonDalekanium said:

DE can keep channeling far, far, FAR away from Chroma's second and third abilities. Chroma also gets a crazy damage buff in his tank build. Does Inaros?

 

Chroma might be only of the worst frames without any forma. But once you invest forma in him, it all comes together beautifully.

Inaros' 1, a cone stun and finisher opener, outclasses Chroma's entire kit. Inaros' 2 turns off any mob or a chain of them instantly. Inaros starts every mission incredibly tanky, without pushing a single button. Chroma has to play this "2-3" shuffle every 40 seconds more or less to even get close, too much micromanagement IMO, and I think that's poor, clunky design that could be improved on. I have a 3-4 Forma Chroma btw.

[Azamagon]

57 minutes ago, CrimsonDalekanium said:

I feel Chroma is probably in the top 1/3 of well designed frames. Certainly behind those such as Loki and Frost, but above those such as Limbo and Hydroid.

Chroma is one of the embodiments of kit versatility. You can have essentially 4 different frames by changing the energy color. Admittedly, you are then stuck in that color for the mission, but that's a result of planning (poor or good). 

His 2 and 3 synergize extremely well, and his 4 can be used as either a decoy or a turret while you slaughter the enemy with your damage buff from vex armor and speed buffs from your pelt. Chroma is admittedly not usually built to be a team player, but when he is, his buffs are almost always appreciated. His 2 and 3 can be cast midair, and you don't want to cast 1 in midair anyways. I think all 4 of his abilities are affected by strength, duration, and efficiency, while only his 2 is affected by range. I can't think of anybody who complains when they see my loadout (for nearly any sortie mission) and see I'm bringing Chroma. And they certainly aren't complaining when I'm picking them up in a sea of sapper orbs. You can mod Chroma for durability buffs, damage, healing, or even credit farming. 

Chroma's 1 is certainly lackluster, I wish his 2 was a one-handed ability, and he needs an ACTUAL passive. Saying chroma changing colors is a passive is crazy. It's a FEATURE. A passive is a nice little bonus, but chroma would be nearly completely crippled without his color changing ability.

Let me explain with the criterias I mentioned:

* Kit Synergy - Chroma only has synergy with his #2 and #3 (if you use Ice or Electric for defense or Toxic for offense. Heat is quite lackluster though). His #4 is even dissynergetic with his tankiness: Not only does it remove half his armor, it also distracts enemies which makes it harder for him to max Vex Armor (although, it can give him breathing room + the speed allows for him to be more offense, I'll give it that). #1 is just bad all over, synergy-wise included :/

* Kit Versatility - While he has POTENTIAL versatility, as you said yourself, he can't do squat about that midmissions, which is what really counts. In terms of versatility, his skills are, well, decent at least, so that's not his main issues. And they are all quite different enough, so that's ok too.

* Kit reliability - #1 has RNG wether you get procs or not, #2 with some elements has RNG wether they take place or not, #3 is reliable, #4 is not entirely reliable due to it being a randomly attacking decoy + pretty much adds a gambling bonus (credit boost). So not only is his #3 (and #2) the strongest numerically, it is also the only truly reliable ability. No wonder people mainly mod for that huh? :)

* Smoothness of use - #1 is bad all over here, #2 could use onehanded casting, #3 is ok (although I personally feel it gets very repetitive and tedious to use due to how it works and due to how "simple" it is) and #4 has that annoying self-stagger-esque interruption when it is unsummoned. He is NOT ok in this regard (mostly due to #1 and #4 though)

* Helpfulness to the team - He can tank and deal nice weaponbased DPS, sure. But to make him a buffer, you have to use the Elemental Ward bandaid augment to make it workable. Most importantly at least: He is not detrimental / trolly to the team.

* Power stat scaling - Power range is downright a dumpstat (as DE seem to be acknowledging, considering his EW augment >_>), which is bad design. All Warframes' abilities should be affected by all stats, otherwise Corrupted mods can turn into no-brainers. Furthermore, his ulti's energydrain is certainly designed with Corrupted mod's power efficiency capabilities in mind, which is part of what makes it even more bleh.

And about the passive, I completely agreed. If Chroma could swap elements midmission (say, by holdcasting his #2 or something?) then MAYBE I could agreed with DE that the elemental colour thing is his passive. Maybe.

Please remember this though, what I said originally: " Note: Wether they are STRONG is irrelevant "
And due to his #3 mainly, Chroma is most certainly not weak. But his ability kit design, imo, is really bad (not Limbo-levels of bad, but still not great)

Add to it this completely subjective and rather unimportant opinion: I also think Chroma is among the absolute ugliest of all Warframes. He is too "damp" and ... I dunno, wrinkly(?) for my tastes. He doesn't say "dragon" to me at all. More like "seamonster covered in algae" imo :P