Fundamentally flawed enemies

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, TrickshotMcGee said:

No, these enemies should not be rare, or nerfed, or removed, or changed in any way. They were designed to make us think, and most people blatantly refuse to do that. They refuse to change their loadout because a single enemy type inconveniences them.

That is the exact opposite of the problem that Nullifiers present to the game balance and loadout choices within. We have plenty of ways to kill nullifiers, but it's an absolute chore to do so without very specific loadouts. We want to have the freedom to use more loadout options rather than having to tailor so much of our gear to the "kill nullifiers" niche

[TrickshotMcGee]

15 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

We want to have the freedom to use more loadout options rather than having to tailor so much of our gear to the "kill nullifiers" niche

Really? Specifically-tailored loadouts? I can use any secondary in my inventory and kill a nullie quickly. I can use almost any primary to do the same, with those not included coincidentally being considered some of the "strongest" weapons, like Tonkor and Simulor. It's NOT a "niche", they're just weapons that aren't directly meta, so the majority of people don't use them. The "problem" of nullifiers is that the meta doesn't really work on them, and players who use exclusively the meta guns don't like that. Nullifiers are really weak to ANY weapon with a high RoF, so saying "niche" and "problem" is simply ignorance. There are so many options to kill them that the only limitations for loadouts you can even have are ones YOU set yourself, not something the game is limiting you to. 

[TARINunit9]

16 minutes ago, TrickshotMcGee said:

Really? Specifically-tailored loadouts? I can use any secondary in my inventory and kill a nullie quickly. I can use almost any primary to do the same, with those not included coincidentally being considered some of the "strongest" weapons, like Tonkor and Simulor. It's NOT a "niche", they're just weapons that aren't directly meta, so the majority of people don't use them. The "problem" of nullifiers is that the meta doesn't really work on them, and players who use exclusively the meta guns don't like that. Nullifiers are really weak to ANY weapon with a high RoF, so saying "niche" and "problem" is simply ignorance. There are so many options to kill them that the only limitations for loadouts you can even have are ones YOU set yourself, not something the game is limiting you to. 

My favorite weapons are all bows, followed by the Hek and Tigris. They certainly aren't cheese-meta (possible exception of the Tigris) yet they don't chew through nullifiers unless I'm willing to risk stepping inside their bubbles

Nullifiers aren't hard. They're constricting. They're unfun. And they're badly-designed. Do they prevent map-lockdown blind Mirage spam and unlimited EV? Sure. They also shut down fun non-cheese things like Eternal War or Toxic Lash (the latter being something that in any other system would be a developer-encouraged soft counter)

THAT'S the crux of this thread

Edited June 25, 2016 by TARINunit9

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

32 minutes ago, TrickshotMcGee said:

I agree. It's FUN to play with something so powerful, to be a truly fearsome force is enjoyable, and is actually a good source of Warframe's appeal. I can appreciate that and it's definitely one of the things that drew me to the game in the first place. The problem with that is, in order for the game to remain fun, there needs to be some form of check to all power. An enemy or set of enemies that can make your day a lot harder. Just as we have powers and OP weapons, the enemy has trump cards to those items, counters, and that's necessary. If all the challenging enemies were removed from play, then everything would simply be far too easy. They serve a purpose, and the intent was to add a challenge to otherwise unchallenged players. Only way to remove their need is to make us less daunting and less able to completely wipe the enemy out of existence.

I don't want the enemies removed I would actually like them to be made tougher.  Bursas are currently the best example.  It is quite satisfying to freeze them and then rinse that little panel with the twin grakatas.  It gives the feeling of taking down a colossus.  I do like there are enemies with special kill conditions, and I feel that experience should be deepened.  I would love to see an enemy where you have to strip off armor panels and rip out it's powercell that would then give you a temporary buff or something.  It would be awesome if every 5 mins or so an enemy that was truly worth marking for group attack appeared.  Currently the only things like that are the assassins, but even then that's mainly for the loot.  However, these enemies would have to be rare and only show up one at a time due to their intrinsic boss level power.  Rather than make us less daunting, make the enemies more daunting.

49 minutes ago, TrickshotMcGee said:

Not sure where that ties into my post. I didn't really mention grinding. But, I do have to say I disagree with most of the "efficient" methods of grinding. That's the point of mastery- to actually MASTER everything. Shared affinity, IMO, shouldn't exist on any scale, because it makes it so "mastery" becomes "well I had it equipped while I leeched others wiping the map so I should get credit". All it does is make people not want to use any weapons outside of their OP mass-killing weapons. That's part of the reason we actually need these enemies. We have the meta weapons - Tonkor, Synoid Simulor, etc - and they're strong as hell, but they can't deal with some enemies, so you ask for the enemies to be nerfed so you can stay in your comfort zone and not have to change tactics. That is a toxic as hell way to think. Honestly, everyone should be forced to use the weapons they want to level, because that was the whole idea behind the system, and it forces people to use weapons outside of the meta, and explore other things a bit.

No, these enemies should not be rare, or nerfed, or removed, or changed in any way. They were designed to make us think, and most people blatantly refuse to do that. They refuse to change their loadout because a single enemy type inconveniences them. It's easier, in their eyes, to simply ask for the enemy to be removed. The ONLY way they get removed is if they're no longer needed, and players can't simply delete opposing forces. When our power is not out of hand (because there IS a statute of limitations on such things) then there doesn't need to be anything to check that power. Now, this DOES NOT mean we need to be completely nerfed into the ground, but it does mean that we need to be considerably less powerful than we currently are. It's simple. I don't understand why people can't grasp that concept. Great powers have to have equal checks. Something less powerful requires less resistance. 

The nuke powers you said that needed removing are mainly used to farm Draco and the like.  Sense grinding is a thing, I don't see a problem with doing it efficiently.  Expecting players to not streamline the process is a bit much, specially with the forma resets.  Draco offers no real rewards other than xp so if people want to waste their time there let them.  The real problem is that other content looks less appealing then just running draco over and over again.

You did not read any of my previous posts in this thread.  They sum up to saying nullifiers should be changed so low rate of fire weapons are more effective against the shield or so that there are far fewer nullifiers.  In particular I want to use my Vectis Prime.  However because nullifiers are only countered by hosing them down I cannot use my favorite weapon class.  The other enemies are fine because they all have multiple counters, but the nullifiers must change because the enforce a meta where everyone just uses a few top tier guns.  I don't want to use the boltor and soma every single time to because I have to deal with nullies.  You accuse me of being unwilling to change my loadout, but that is exactly what I am trying to do because running every single void mission ever with some assault rifle variant is boring as all getout.  An enemy that limits weapon choice to that degree needs to be retooled.

The assertion that nullifiers make you think is laughable.  They are very easy to kill as long as you follow the enforced meta.  You literally just vomit bullets at a really large flashing target.  Just because you don't want to use bows or snipers does not mean we should not be able to.  That's a very toxic way of thinking.

[jjpdn]

So why are people calling the Nullifiers 'artificial difficulty' anyways? 

Artificial difficulty is when an enemy is just so ridiculous that no amount of intelligent thinking or planning can defeat the enemy.

Nullifiers are FAR from that. There's at least one weapon that I can think of that hard counters them, and the rest are just as viable. If you brought a slow firing sniper, remember to bring a secondary with a good fire rate and a holster mod. That's strategic planning and using your brain.  

Edited June 26, 2016 by jjpdn

[RealPandemonium]

This debate will always boil down to "do you want to be able to spam powers infalliably, or not?"

For what it's worth, Nullifiers are rarely a problem before the 70s, where the rest of the game breaks down anyway.  You could look at it as people getting upset that their bandaids for broken 70+ non-gameplay are getting taken away by Nullifiers, which makes the game's broken scaling at post-50 levels the problem; not Nullifers themselves.

As a rule of thumb, "it makes me unable to kill level XXX enemies reliably and safely" is typically not a strong leg to stand on in Warframe balance discussion.  

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

As a rule of thumb, "it makes me unable to kill level XXX enemies reliably and safely" is typically not a strong leg to stand on in Warframe balance discussion.  

That's not the argument against Nullies. Do they prevent ability spam? Yes. But they do so very cleaply. They also discourage use of weapons such as Vectis, bows, and Tigris

They don't provide FUN challenge. That's the key word here. They're a chore, and they don't feel fair. You beat them by playing by their rules, as opposed to a set of neutral rules. It's the same problem with Grineer Commanders (which I really regret not being in my original post, so we wouldn't only be talking about Nullifiers)

1 hour ago, jjpdn said:

Artificial difficulty is when an enemy is just so ridiculous that no amount of intelligent thinking or planning can defeat the enemy.

Nullifiers are FAR from that.

Fake Difficulty: Difficulty derived through unfair means or otherwise through ways that are outside the player's control ingame.

Which, as I spelled out above, Nullifiers are very much an element of. Maybe not quite as much as Grineer Commanders (who can switchtele THROUGH WALLS). Nullifiers show up, declare "hey this 20 meter radius belongs to me, as does the last three abilities you just cast. Oh, and that Vectis and Angrstrum? Also mine." The Nullifier is dictating the course of the battle by himself. The player only has one option: melee rush

That's not good game design

[SonicSonedit]

On 25.06.2016 at 1:55 AM, Hypernaut1 said:

They force you to actually THINK.

I'm thinking SO HARD when I press my mouse1 with all the might I have and unload my soma prime.

True challenge.

True metabreak.

Unique mechanics.

[TrickshotMcGee]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

Just because you don't want to use bows or snipers does not mean we should not be able to

 

7 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

My favorite weapons are all bows, followed by the Hek and Tigris. They certainly aren't cheese-meta (possible exception of the Tigris) yet they don't chew through nullifiers unless I'm willing to risk stepping inside their bubbles

Just gonna pick these bits out and simply not quote more. I hate most assault rifles. My favorite weapons are melee (Dual Kamas Prime are bae), and my primary of choice is either Tigris or Dread. I play a lot of Mesa, Inaros, and Saryn. I'm also only capable of playing solo, so I'm actually unable to maximize any build for one thing because I have no support but myself. Thought I'd mention that since we seem to be keen on assuming the other person shuns non-meta things. 

As for the rest, you still don't seem to understand my point of view exactly. I'm not saying "get over it. use better guns" or telling you to git gud. I'm saying take warframes and weapons to a low enough level that Nullifiers and other such enemies no longer need to exist at all, in any scope, while DE doesn't have to come up with any more frustrating enemies to counter us. Instead, they can give us balanced and challenging enemies that we can't just cheese our way out of.

Enemies as they are now aren't the problem. Players having grossly powerful ways to kill things is the problem. If powercreep wasn't a thing, do you think we'd still have enemies that cancel out abilities? Doubt it, but if they did, they'd be relatively weak to gunplay. If we couldn't 1-shot lvl 150 enemies, do you think enemies would scale to the point that they can negate most of that damage with armor? Probably not. 

THAT'S my point and THAT'S where the thread is wrong. Asking for nerfs for an enemy that's designed to counter our most powerful items simply won't happen until the items they were designed to counter are no longer as much of a threat. Until our power is brought down, theirs won't be. 

And I know it limits the use of a number of fun weapons, trust me, I feel that the same as anyone else, but it's nobody's fault except our own for wanting buffs, and asking to be more powerful. There's no way people should expect an enemy designed as a check to us to be nerfed while we're unchanged. That's simply unreasonable. 

[RealPandemonium]

12 minutes ago, SonicSonedit said:

I'm thinking SO HARD when I press my mouse1 with all the might I have and unload my soma prime.

True challenge.

True metabreak.

Unique mechanics.

Nerf automatic weapons vs Nullifiers.  Good catch!

[Xzorn]

3 hours ago, jjpdn said:

So why are people calling the Nullifiers 'artificial difficulty' anyways? 

Artificial difficulty is when an enemy is just so ridiculous that no amount of intelligent thinking or planning can defeat the enemy.

Nullifiers are FAR from that. There's at least one weapon that I can think of that hard counters them, and the rest are just as viable. If you brought a slow firing sniper, remember to bring a secondary with a good fire rate and a holster mod. That's strategic planning and using your brain.  

 

Nullifiers qualify as Artificial Difficulty because they create an unfair situation at later levels that no amount of skill will prevent and on top of this they remove weapon options which is very much not a skill based countermeasure. Planning your load out is not difficulty. Everyone knows high RoF works best on them and I'm not a more skillful player because I follow suite and use them. Hence: Fake.

 

 

 

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, TrickshotMcGee said:

Enemies as they are now aren't the problem. Players having grossly powerful ways to kill things is the problem. If powercreep wasn't a thing, do you think we'd still have enemies that cancel out abilities?

OK, I see the impasse we're at now. And while I agree with your logic, you're missing a factor:

As of a couple weeks ago, the devs are turning the power creep back

If the devs are removing bad power creep design from US, they should remove bad design from the enemies

[DatDarkOne]

On 6/24/2016 at 4:55 PM, Hypernaut1 said:

I Like how people like to make up nebulous terms like "artificial difficulty" to prove a point as if it means anything.

According to DE, nullifiers are working as intended. They force you to actually THINK.

Have to agree with this.  I Find it ironic that the same people who say remove nullifiers or nerf them are usually the same ones who also complain (either now or later) about not having any challenge.    

All this salt over an enemy that is so easily countered.  Which was proved by anyone who did the Bow Only sortie that happened to have tons of Nullifiers in it.  So, here we are again with yet another Nullifier topic.  I just don't understand it.  

[Hypernaut1]

53 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

Nullifiers qualify as Artificial Difficulty because they create an unfair situation at later levels that no amount of skill will prevent and on top of this they remove weapon options which is very much not a skill based countermeasure. Planning your load out is not difficulty. Everyone knows high RoF works best on them and I'm not a more skillful player because I follow suite and use them. Hence: Fake.

 

 

 

"No amount of skill" really? Such hyperbole.

1. You pop the bubble and kill the crewman inside. The bubble does NOT scale. 

It really doesn't take that much skill to prioritize them. At higher levels, there are far more things that have just a good a chance at killing you fast if you don't react fast enough.

People have been completing corpus sorties FINE and it's the highest level content we have (besides endless).

People constantly brag about 1 hour t4 survival in the void, and the most difficult nullys are there.

So yeah, It takes some skill, not much, and you can deal with them fine...as the in game community will show you.

 

[Xzorn]

7 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

"No amount of skill" really? Such hyperbole.

1. You pop the bubble and kill the crewman inside. The bubble does NOT scale. 

It really doesn't take that much skill to prioritize them. At higher levels, there are far more things that have just a good a chance at killing you fast if you don't react fast enough.

People have been completing corpus sorties FINE and it's the highest level content we have (besides endless).

People constantly brag about 1 hour t4 survival in the void, and the most difficult nullys are there.

So yeah, It takes some skill, not much, and you can deal with them fine...as the in game community will show you.

 

 

Sorties are the new lvl 50. Hell I think lvl 35 enemies in Damage 1.0 were harder.

Nullifiers aren't what kill you at higher levels, it's the Hit-scan Heavy Gunner inside the bubbles. Nullifiers create the situation that allows them to one shot you in the 1.5s it takes to drop the bubble. Basically if you're not running Frost in the group post lvl 300 you're RNG dead all day. Real skillz.

People have been completing Sorties fine huh? So... who here Soloed the recent Corpus Sniper ONLY 200+ Exterminate and thought it was fine? I solo Sorties every single day but when I get that garbage or if in general it's gunna take more than 30min to do all 3 missions I skip it. Cuz it's not fine, it's an RNG mess that some days isn't worth doing.

Just because YOU don't play at a level where Nullifiers are broken doesn't mean others don't and it doesn't mean you get to pretend the situation isn't there or say it's my fault for pushing the limits of my completey broken DPS potential. If I wana hang around in the kiddy pool I'll just use Ignis and spin around; further mocking the "Difficulty" of this game.

[DatDarkOne]

42 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

who here Soloed the recent Corpus Sniper ONLY 200+ Exterminate and thought it was fine?

Right here.  I missed the most recent one due to work.  I did get the Bow only Corpus Exterminate mission.  The sniper one would have been pretty much the same as that one.  I always do the sorties solo.  Only ones I don't do solo are the ones that require a group such as Interception, Defense, Excavation.  All the others are done solo by me using the same frame for them all.  If you can't kill the Nulli due to possibly dying from other enemies, you take out those enemies instead and end with the nulli.  Or you can concentrate all fire on the nulli.  Since those sorties didn't allow melee or secondary, you have work with what you have and use smart tactics.  Which basically means to take your time and don't rush into anything.  It wasn't hard at all.  It just required patience. 

[LSG501]

Having now had the pleasure of 2 syndicate death squads I'd put the Eximus Ancient Healer Death Squads from Loka as flawed/overpowered when doing things solo.

I don't have an issue with idea of death squads, that's the whole idea of syndicates but having first experienced the Perrin Sequence sending in their MOA and having no issue with them like in normal events I then get the Loka Ancient Healers in another map and I was literally doing NO damage to them, I don't even think I managed to kill one of them before they killed me.  I normally have no issues killing them in normal events at the same/higher map level either so the 'upgrades' for the Loka death squad probably need to be balanced better. 

Other than that I can't say I've come across too much that is flawed, there's several that are annoying such as the sapping osprey (really could do with a cooldown between bubbles) and the teleporting commander grineer but they're not overpowered etc 

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

18 hours ago, TrickshotMcGee said:

Really? Specifically-tailored loadouts? I can use any secondary in my inventory and kill a nullie quickly. I can use almost any primary to do the same, with those not included coincidentally being considered some of the "strongest" weapons, like Tonkor and Simulor. It's NOT a "niche", they're just weapons that aren't directly meta, so the majority of people don't use them. The "problem" of nullifiers is that the meta doesn't really work on them, and players who use exclusively the meta guns don't like that. Nullifiers are really weak to ANY weapon with a high RoF, so saying "niche" and "problem" is simply ignorance. There are so many options to kill them that the only limitations for loadouts you can even have are ones YOU set yourself, not something the game is limiting you to. 

I'm trying to make the game interesting for me again by using non-meta weapons, but nullifiers make that impossible.  So many people say that those who don't like nullifiers are just unhappy they can't use their simulors and tonkors.  I'm trying to use snipers, others want to use bows, and you are ignoring that.

It's really funny how you say nullifiers are weak to high fire rate weapons and then in the next sentence say there are so many options.  My problem is that I have spent tons of time using loadouts that deal with nullifiers just fine, but that has gotten boring and I can't use the weapons that feel distinctly different from the weapons nullifiers require me to use.

14 hours ago, jjpdn said:

Nullifiers are FAR from that. There's at least one weapon that I can think of that hard counters them, and the rest are just as viable. If you brought a slow firing sniper, remember to bring a secondary with a good fire rate and a holster mod. That's strategic planning and using your brain.

I'm so tired of this.  This is not a viable solution because of the number of nullifiers in a mission.  Once the spawn rate picks up you end up using the secondary at the almost total exclusion of the slow fire primary.  Since this is the case there is no point in bringing a slow fire primary.  Choosing the fricking boltor is not using my brain.  I've literally done it thousands of times and would like to do something else now.  Also holster mods are just band-aids that reduce your overall power.  Reducing the total power of the weapon I'm going to end up using for the rest of the mission is just stupid.

11 hours ago, TrickshotMcGee said:

As for the rest, you still don't seem to understand my point of view exactly. I'm not saying "get over it. use better guns" or telling you to git gud. I'm saying take warframes and weapons to a low enough level that Nullifiers and other such enemies no longer need to exist at all, in any scope, while DE doesn't have to come up with any more frustrating enemies to counter us. Instead, they can give us balanced and challenging enemies that we can't just cheese our way out of.

This has the potential to end up like Destiny around the time a month after The Taken King launch.  They nerfed the crap out of everything good, once they were done with that they just flat nerfed the crap out of everything again.  They were left with a boring pile of sameness.  There was no point in having different guns because they all performed the same.  I do not like the idea of removing mechanics from the game.  Nullifier's should exist, but they should be counterable if they are going to be a run of the mill enemy.  We need more enemies with special effects and special kill conditions to liven up the gameplay and make it less repetitive.  However, no one enemy should dominate loadout choices the way nullifiers do.  We do need to move away from the horde mode mentality.  Fewer enemies that must be approached more carefully would be a step in the right direction.

I would actually like to see a nullifier boss.  It's a nullifier with three dedicated minions that always stay under the shield.  The nullifier uses a supra, and the minions would have deras.   The nullifier can be staggered but not knocked down.  It's impossible to damage the bubble while the minions are alive.  The bubble would be divided into three pie slices, one for each minion.  This would require players quickly parkour under the bubble kill a minion and flee before the supra can be brought to bear.  Once the minions are dead players can back up and drop the bubble before grinding the nullifer into paste.  It would be possible to damage the nullifier without dropping the bubble, but it would have 80% damage resistance and moderate health.   It would not be advisable to say in the bubble for long due to the strength of the supra at close range.  Something like this I think would be a fair way to keep the nullifying bubble as it is now in the game, since we would only see it as often we see bosses now and never two at once.  

12 hours ago, TrickshotMcGee said:

Enemies as they are now aren't the problem. Players having grossly powerful ways to kill things is the problem. If powercreep wasn't a thing, do you think we'd still have enemies that cancel out abilities? Doubt it, but if they did, they'd be relatively weak to gunplay. If we couldn't 1-shot lvl 150 enemies, do you think enemies would scale to the point that they can negate most of that damage with armor? Probably not. 

THAT'S my point and THAT'S where the thread is wrong. Asking for nerfs for an enemy that's designed to counter our most powerful items simply won't happen until the items they were designed to counter are no longer as much of a threat. Until our power is brought down, theirs won't be.

The power creep discussion is something else entirely.  Even if we were brought down the way you describe, any enemy that severely limited the weapon selection in a large portion of the game would still be fundamentally flawed.  Such an enemy should be changed but not completely removed no matter the balance configuration.  You are essentially saying it's okay for nullifiers to be as they are because they nerf the simulor and the tonkor regardless of how they effect other weapons that did not need to be nerfed.  I don't think that justification is good enough.

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

11 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Have to agree with this.  I Find it ironic that the same people who say remove nullifiers or nerf them are usually the same ones who also complain (either now or later) about not having any challenge.    

All this salt over an enemy that is so easily countered.  Which was proved by anyone who did the Bow Only sortie that happened to have tons of Nullifiers in it.  So, here we are again with yet another Nullifier topic.  I just don't understand it.  

Nullies are not challenging now, you just need a soma.  I just want them changed so my sniper works as well against them as a boltor.

Your bow only sortie is a false comparison.  How quickly did you complete the mission?  How many people went down?  Did you or a teammate use the Zhuge or Attica?  If anyone did use a Zhuge or Attica then your argument is invalid.  Otherwise the mission went slower and more people died because of the bow only modifier.

11 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

"No amount of skill" really? Such hyperbole.

1. You pop the bubble and kill the crewman inside. The bubble does NOT scale. 

It really doesn't take that much skill to prioritize them. At higher levels, there are far more things that have just a good a chance at killing you fast if you don't react fast enough.

People have been completing corpus sorties FINE and it's the highest level content we have (besides endless).

People constantly brag about 1 hour t4 survival in the void, and the most difficult nullys are there.

So yeah, It takes some skill, not much, and you can deal with them fine...as the in game community will show you.

 

We never said they were hard.  We said they only had one counter and that sucked.

1 hour ago, DatDarkOne said:

Right here.  I missed the most recent one due to work.  I did get the Bow only Corpus Exterminate mission.  The sniper one would have been pretty much the same as that one.  I always do the sorties solo.  Only ones I don't do solo are the ones that require a group such as Interception, Defense, Excavation.  All the others are done solo by me using the same frame for them all.  If you can't kill the Nulli due to possibly dying from other enemies, you take out those enemies instead and end with the nulli.  Or you can concentrate all fire on the nulli.  Since those sorties didn't allow melee or secondary, you have work with what you have and use smart tactics.  Which basically means to take your time and don't rush into anything.  It wasn't hard at all.  It just required patience. 

For a sortie that's fine because that is where that level of difficulty belongs, for every single void and corpus mission its not.  Would you take a sniper to a 1hr long t4s?

[Xzorn]

5 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Right here.  I missed the most recent one due to work.  I did get the Bow only Corpus Exterminate mission.  The sniper one would have been pretty much the same as that one.  I always do the sorties solo.  Only ones I don't do solo are the ones that require a group such as Interception, Defense, Excavation.  All the others are done solo by me using the same frame for them all.  If you can't kill the Nulli due to possibly dying from other enemies, you take out those enemies instead and end with the nulli.  Or you can concentrate all fire on the nulli.  Since those sorties didn't allow melee or secondary, you have work with what you have and use smart tactics.  Which basically means to take your time and don't rush into anything.  It wasn't hard at all.  It just required patience. 

 

You missed the last part of my quote where I said, If all three Sortie missions take longer than 30min I don't bother.

When it comes to Sorties, It's not about smacking your head against a wall till it breaks, it's how stupidly long it takes to do so.

Inception, Defense, Excavation also do not require groups at all, esp Interception.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Xzorn

[DatDarkOne]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

Would you take a sniper to a 1hr long t4s?

Yes, I would and have.

 

6 hours ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

Your bow only sortie is a false comparison.  How quickly did you complete the mission?  How many people went down?  Did you or a teammate use the Zhuge or Attica?  If anyone did use a Zhuge or Attica then your argument is invalid.  Otherwise the mission went slower and more people died because of the bow only modifier.

It was solo.  I didn't die.  I used the Rakta Cernos.  :D  In hindsight, the Mutalist Cernos would have been a better option for that mission. 

[TARINunit9]

18 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Have to agree with this.  I Find it ironic that the same people who say remove nullifiers or nerf them are usually the same ones who also complain (either now or later) about not having any challenge.    

All this salt over an enemy that is so easily countered.  Which was proved by anyone who did the Bow Only sortie that happened to have tons of Nullifiers in it.  So, here we are again with yet another Nullifier topic.  I just don't understand it.  

1) This wasn't intended to be a nullifier topic. If you have any other enemies you feel are objectively badly designed, feel free to talk about them

2) Artificial/fake difficulty =/= actual difficulty. Nullifiers aren't hard to kill, they're unfun to kill. That's our problem here

[DatDarkOne]

Fair points, Tenno.  :D

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

4 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Yes, I would and have.

 

It was solo.  I didn't die.  I used the Rakta Cernos.  :D  In hindsight, the Mutalist Cernos would have been a better option for that mission. 

In that case I'm happy for you.  I'm glad that nullifiers don't effect your bows or snipers and that you can quickly dispatch groups of three or four nullifiers and their homies easily with your vectis in high level missions.

[DatDarkOne]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

In that case I'm happy for you.  I'm glad that nullifiers don't effect your bows or snipers and that you can quickly dispatch groups of three or four nullifiers and their homies easily with your vectis in high level missions.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not.  Anyway, I don't have the Vectis.  My Sniper of choice is the Rubico.  You asked a question, and I gave my honest answer.  I didn't say they were the optimal methods of doing it.  But you have to consider the limits of the sortie, and work with it.