Why Nullifiers?

[Hypernaut1]

9 hours ago, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

The debate is about not dying miserably. You ever been in a scenario where you're wall to wall surrounded by nullifiers grouped in with all kinds of other nasty units and no possible way to reasonably counter-attack? Especially if a few of your teammates are down. Yeah that's nice you know how to perfectly execute one in an optimal situation. How bout 5 with a few bursas thrown in S#&$ting missiles everywhere and dragging you by your heels. Hell even a few ospreys will mess you up.

High level content your health/shields/armor are all paper and need to rely on buffs and CC both of which the nullifier slaps out of your hand. Either it's debuff ability needs to be removed (a role which Combas/Scrambas have fallen into) or it needs some sort of achilles heel on the bubble itself. 

Looks like you were just outplayed by the enemy and allowed yourself to be put in a bad situation. 

This is GOOD design. I'm glad you couldn't just power spam your way out of that. Either you skillfully escape, take out nully, or accept defeat. I see no enemy cheese in that scenario.

A "few" bursa? You were probably cakewalking the game up until that point.

Many of you are claiming things like "bad,lazy design" "lore breaking" etc, as if it's some sort of fact. It's not. Nullifiers are well designed enemies.

1.They require more than just high damage to deal with. It's Good design when you have more to think about than what deals the most damage. 

2. They telegraph their presence well, and can be dealt with at a distance. Bubble is a huge enough target. It's easy enough to take cover and still take down the bubble, opening up the enemy to your beloved CC or rapid fire accurate sniper work that takes down hordes easily 40 into a survival.

3.They force you to rethink your strategy, engaging the player in a different way compared to most other enemies that only require the strategy of point at and shoot

4.They DON'T rely on scaling to pose a threat. Is this not what people ask for?

...Lore breaking would be drones of idiotic enemies running towards us without ANY type of cover. Nullifiers actually make them feel like they have some sort of plan to actually defeat us and are not just running to the slaughter. It is satisfying to OVERCOME an enemy that poses a real threat that is not just about scaling.

[(XBOX)SlohLane]

6 minutes ago, ragingdeamon said:

If defeating them wasn't a problem, you would just kill them and this discussion would never take place. Killing them while they are protecting other units counts as killing them. 

how are they dull and bullet sponges? they are more interesting than some bosses, that just are there and shoot you like normal enemies instead of having interesting mechanics. also, define interesting enemies, because it might be subjective.

you say killing them becomes a problem when there are many in one place and surrounded by heavy units. by my experience this happens only in very high level scenarios, at which point you should come prepared with weapons to counter them and not bring your favorite weapons because they are your favorite weapons. it's not like you can bring any frame to any mission expecting to use all powers. varying your playstyle is part of the game. 

for example, you don't bring a low ammo efficency weapon in a long survival; even if you have ammo restores, you are forced to stay in a specific place and that can kill you. but you bring that very weapon in something like a sabotage or capture because you don't kill nearly as many enemies and it's probably faster to kill the capture target with that weapon. you bring CC frames in endless missions because they help, but if you bring them in a exterminate the help can be very marginal. 

 

3 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Looks like you were just outplayed by the enemy and allowed yourself to be put in a bad situation. 

This is GOOD design. I'm glad you couldn't just power spam your way out of that. Either you skillfully escape, take out nully, or accept defeat. I see no enemy cheese in that scenario.

A "few" bursa? You were probably cakewalking the game up until that point.

Many of you are claiming things like "bad,lazy design" "lore breaking" etc, as if it's some sort of fact. It's not. Nullifiers are well designed enemies.

1.They require more than just high damage to deal with. It's Good design when you have more to think about than what deals the most damage. 

2. They telegraph their presence well, and can be dealt with at a distance. Bubble is a huge enough target. It's easy enough to take cover and still take down the bubble, opening up the enemy to your beloved CC or rapid fire accurate sniper work that takes down hordes easily 40 into a survival.

3.They force you to rethink your strategy, engaging the player in a different way compared to most other enemies that only require the strategy of point at and shoot

4.They DON'T rely on scaling to pose a threat. Is this not what people ask for?

...Lore breaking would be drones of idiotic enemies running towards us without ANY type of cover. Nullifiers actually make them feel like they have some sort of plan to actually defeat us and are not just running to the slaughter. It is satisfying to OVERCOME an enemy that poses a real threat that is not just about scaling.

Where were you guys when I needed you!! I got wrekt in this thread defending nullies.

I personally think they are very well designed and if anything could use a buff..

im currently working on a video where I toy around with high level nullies and the enemies that surround them.

it probably won't get any coverage or care but at least I will feel satisfied that I made my point. #NullieBuff

[Gilmaesh]

I don't mind them,

they maybe need some tweaks like no artic eximus spawn, less shot needed from low fire rate weapon like bow/sniper or increase our swapping speed, no benefit from other enemies auras like ancient and maybe better spawn rate in some case.

But aside from that, they're fine.

[PopGligor]

Nullifiers and bursas are the only enemies in the game I've encountered that require a change of tactic. Usually, that means slide melee attack into the nullifier to take him out immediately, or a well targeted bullet jump to drop right on top of him and still kill him in an instant. I don't think they were designed to be challenging, I think they were designed to quickly change the pace of the game.

Like headless kamikazes in Serious Sam - they're not a challenge, but as soon as you hear their scream, they become immediate priority. 

[VoidNomade]

1 hour ago, ragingdeamon said:

If defeating them wasn't a problem, you would just kill them and this discussion would never take place. Killing them while they are protecting other units counts as killing them.

 Because killing them isn´t part of their problem and if you would have cared to read the thread you wouldn´t need to say such a senseless rhetorical sentence.

On 28.6.2016 at 0:01 PM, VoidNomade said:

The other problem are people glorifying the design or simply misunderstanding what people find negative about them

- they are not hard

- they can be handled 

- and that's not their issue

It's the meta they create that is the problem.

 

1 hour ago, ragingdeamon said:

how are they dull and bullet sponges?

- no other skills

- stand there and shoot a big bubble without any need to aim

- bubble speed decrease caped

- stacking of bubbles and eximi

- repeating task

= boring and dull bullet sponges

It´s sad that i need to explain this.

 

1 hour ago, ragingdeamon said:

they are more interesting than some bosses, that just are there and shoot you like normal enemies instead of having interesting mechanics. also, define interesting enemies, because it might be subjective.

Yes you got it.

But to be more clear which typ of enemy in wf i find interesting; None. But Hyena and Bursas are coming near what i would define "interesting enemy design" because of multiple attack patterns, tactics and weaponry.

1 hour ago, ragingdeamon said:

you say killing them becomes a problem when there are many in one place and surrounded by heavy units.

You´re laying words in my mouth that i never said like that. Very bad form.

Stacking becomes a nuisance because the thing you do is shooting, again and again into some different looking bubbles and that´s literally the only thing you really do.

Killing them with diving and they are surrounded by heavies and ancients will yield the death later on when enemies are able to one/two shot your frame, that´s what i also said.

1 hour ago, ragingdeamon said:

and not bring your favorite weapons because they are your favorite weapons. it's not like you can bring any frame to any mission expecting to use all powers. varying your playstyle is part of the game. 

It´s ironic how you can say i should variate my playstyle in the same context that i should narrow my options with which i would alternate my playstyle. Logic much.

And it´s not about ONE single favourite weapon mate. It´s about a whole category of weapon TYPES. Even if it´s the highest of highest content there shouldn´t be a restriction on the weapon TYPES i could use. Period. /Just because i can see the next argument in this case; no, bringing another high rof gun isn´t solving that nullifier spawn so much that switching weapons is a obnoxious task at best because you would need to switch every few seconds. Low Rof guns still sucks than.

 

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Many of you are claiming things like "bad,lazy design" "lore breaking" etc, as if it's some sort of fact. It's not. Nullifiers are well designed enemies.

Many of you are claiming things like "good, interesting design" "perfect sense" etc, as if it´s some sort of fact. It´s not. Nullifier are bad and lazy designed enemies.

 

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

3.They force you to rethink your strategy, engaging the player in a different way compared to most other enemies that only require the strategy of point at and shoot

I fight nullifiers perfectly and exactly with : ↑ , when diving isn´t an option anymore

 

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

It is satisfying to OVERCOME an enemy that poses a real threat that is not just about scaling.

Nullifier are a threat to you?

Edited June 29, 2016 by VoidNomade

[ragingdeamon]

if they are not hard to kill, then why do you not kill them and just be done with it? they are not a problem if they are dead. I'm not talking about taking down the bubble, I'm talking about killing them.

actually, nevermind. I think we are talking about something else here. what is the problem they pose? it's not about weapons, it's not about them or the enemies they protect, then what is the problem with them? 

they change the meta? no, it's not about weapons. 

they are bad design? I just think they are effective at what the developers made them for: reduce power spamming and keep you on the move. besides, they are not hard to kill, so it shouldn't be a problem. 

[(XBOX)SlohLane]

47 minutes ago, NightElve said:

((that's if you even play high level content))

Shmma... Jokes on you.

 

or maybe this will help since you'll probably disregard that ^ pic being its capped from the clan page.

 

And  just so you can realize your not the only one who has put in their time and work.. That's if you are even as high rank as you claim too be

 

Oh and I don't think that your complaining about not being able too kill them, I think that your complaining that they are worthless, poorly implemented, and don't Do what they were intended to do! 

In which you prove that they do exactly what they are intended too do. STOP PLAYERS FROM SPAMMING CHEAP ABILITYS SUCH AS MOLT AND SPORE FOR 2 hours..

Edited June 29, 2016 by (XB1)Listed mia 510

[NightElve]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Listed mia 510 said:

Shmma... Jokes on you.

 

or maybe this will help since you'll probably disregard that ^ pic being its capped from the clan page.

 

And  just so you can realize your not the only one who has put in their time and work.. That's if you are even as high rank as you claim too be

 

Oh and I don't think that your complaining about not being able too kill them, I think that your complaining that they are worthless, poorly implemented, and don't Do what they were intended to do! 

In which you prove that they do exactly what they are intended too do. STOP PLAYERS FROM SPAMMING CHEAP ABILITYS SUCH AS MOLT AND SPORE FOR 2 hours..

i'll avoid looking at all that, i never asked for  screenshots, Lol! who knows were you picked them up, why are you trying soo much to prove yourself? if that's even your personal record, not that i cared for in the beginning, so all that is baseless, all i wanted to see, is you popping nullifiers everytime, all that... is just mumble rumble from your side, hence useless!

All of your comments about high level, that got us here are not necessary, 

Edited June 29, 2016 by NightElve

[(XBOX)SlohLane]

11 minutes ago, NightElve said:

i'll avoid looking at all that, i never asked for  screenshots, Lol! who knows were you picked them up, why are you trying soo much to prove yourself? if that's even your personal record, not that i cared for in the beginning, so all that is baseless, all i wanted to see, is you popping nullifiers everytime, all that... is just mumble rumble from your side, hence useless!

All of your comments about high level, that got us here are not necessary, 

Yea I figured you would disregard the proof.

wheres yours?

next time you call someone out on high level enemy encounters or MR Status you should realize that said person will bring proof too the table.

its pretty easy too obtain even further proof that it's mine all you have too do is check my recruit tab for that clan. Those are original screenshots. Taken directly from my screen and placed here go ahead click on them they even take you too my photo bucket. 

Seems your just sour that you've been outdone my friend.

Edited June 29, 2016 by (XB1)Listed mia 510

[NightElve]

6 minutes ago, -XeqtR said:

Wait is this really what would be considered challenging in the game nowadays? I haven't played in a while but I'm pretty sure with maxed mods you can do exactly what you're asking for pretty easily.

Here comes another lost Tenno read the thread,

 

8 minutes ago, -XeqtR said:

let's see how much fun you have popping those bubbles again and again.

that's why i mentioned this, it's not even about staying that long, i wanted him to show us how avoiding nullifiers, everytime is fun, and with that set up/duration he will take much longer fighting nullifiers that doing anything else.

Read and understand, just because it's the Forums doesn't give you the reason not to think and comprehend what is being talked about.. 

[NightElve]

19 minutes ago, (XB1)Listed mia 510 said:

Yea I figured you would disregard the proof.

19 minutes ago, (XB1)Listed mia 510 said:

wheres yours?

what do you mean by this? i have the mods and frames to reach those waves, what i don't have is patience/time...

 

3 hours ago, NightElve said:

use Saryn, Zephy, Atlas, Nezha, Banshee or any frame or weapon, that is not a community Meta, avoid using high fire rate weapons if you can, a shotgun or sniper, do 1hr 30 mins minimum,

Your copy paste images are just as baseless as your comments, you even copied an image of a Frost with a Quanta vandal,(( DISAPPOINTMENT!)).

didn't know a Seeker is a MR 10-11, i think. with that, i'll stop my argument there, No offence, this is an issue mainly for high mastery players seeking challenges and fun mostly, they/we spend more time upgrading looking for fun ways to play, testing different weapons, using non-conventional frames or weapons, and nullifiers are a hinderance to that,  

 

Edited June 29, 2016 by NightElve

[-XeqtR]

8 minutes ago, NightElve said:

Here comes another lost Tenno read the thread,

 

that's why i mentioned this, it's not even about staying that long, i wanted him to show us how avoiding nullifiers, everytime is fun, and with that set up/duration he will take much longer fighting nullifiers that doing anything else.

Read and understand, just because it's the Forums doesn't give you the reason not to think and comprehend what is being talked about.. 

Firstly, being told about reading comprehension from someone using 4 commas in a run on sentence is ridiculous. Please don't attack my intelligence.

Secondly, I am well aware of what the thread is about and my comment still remains. Fun? How do you define what others find fun? 

[NightElve]

21 minutes ago, -XeqtR said:

Fun? How do you define what others find fun? 

sorry for that, 

 

25 minutes ago, NightElve said:

No offence, this is an issue mainly for high mastery players seeking challenges and fun mostly, they/we spend more time upgrading looking for fun ways to play, testing different weapons, using non-conventional frames or weapons, and nullifiers are a hinderance to that,  

This is a conflict of interest, maybe it's just that we have been playing the game for a while, Tonkor, Soma prime... this and other weapons or frames we have used them for quite a while, i personally don't hate them, but at this point in the game, i want to try new mechanics without feeling crippled, it's my/our issue for players of higher Mastery and maybe some other players still levelling up, it's mainly our issue not yours.

 

Edited June 29, 2016 by NightElve

[(PSN)Pengu_Imperialus]

7 minutes ago, NightElve said:

 

Your copy paste images are just as baseless as your comments, you even copied an image of a Frost with a Quanta vandal,(( DISAPPOINTMENT!)).

didn't know a Seeker is a MR 10-11, i think. with that, i'll stop my argument there, No offence, this is an issue mainly for high mastery players seeking challenges and fun mostly, they/we spend more time upgrading looking for fun ways to play, testing different weapons, using non-conventional frames or weapons, and nullifiers are a hinderance to that,  

 

I'd have to disagree.  I find nullifiers fun as they are one of the few enemies that require you to rethink strategy at all.  I'll admit that a level 100 Ice Eximus Nulifier can be daunting but that's when we see if someone is good or just talking trash lol.

[Multicom-EN-]

Nullifiers are stupid and needs to be reworked. I have yet to figure out why DE continues to avoid this.

Yes, sure. Just melee them. Just use a high firerate weapon. Just do this, just do that. We shouldn't have to rely on a few select weapon types, or sliding to melee them when there is 5 bombards and 10 heavy gunners with them. Toss on a few more Nullifiers for the hell of it. It's dumb and needs to go or be reworked.

[-XeqtR]

The game has always been this way, though. There will always be superior compositions to end game. You cannot expect DE to balance all weapons and frames to be equally viable. Especially because they don't even acknowledge the existence of end game being a thing. In their minds making all weapons equally viable to killing one unit type, that only a % of players will face, isn't going to be highly sought.

[(XBOX)SlohLane]

oh this is going too be glorious! 

On 29/06/2016 at 5:28 PM, NightElve said:

didn't know a Seeker is a MR 10-11, i think. with that, i'll stop my argument there, No offence, this is an issue mainly for high mastery players 

Yes I am a Seeker on the Forums. But every Veteran Warframe player knows that Forum Rank And in Game Rank DO NOT COINCIDE WITH ONE ANOTHER.

With that said I'll leave this here for you too learn today..

 

And for your want too see video although this was from the other days sortie 2 it still shows the same concept that you are wrong about nullies. Especially when it comes too high RoF weapons only being good against them.

https://1drv.ms/v/s!Ahk5QpVQch2-hhgJQXv1HZlm4DGd

oh but I'm sure some how all this is fake too right?

Like I Said 6 Shots too drop bubble.

sorry it's not a video of Saryn Sitting in a corner Spamming Molt And Spore which I think we can see here from me just Toying with the higher level nullies that I most likely would have no problem doing said challenge and still affectively able to spam my abilities without having too bring a weapon I do t want too use in game, or dive bombing them!

Oh and In case you call that video fake As Well... I find it highly unlikely I found a video with the same exact load out I been preaching about for multiple pages now. VHek, Rakta Bal, Lacera on my back buddy!

So let's see your screen Caps now heh I took the time too organize mine for you I'm ready for you too take the time for all these fine people here watching our debate.

 

P.s. If someone can educate me on how I can go about making the video show up and not just be a link I would highly appreciate the assistance.

[TheScytale]

43 minutes ago, NightElve said:

didn't know a Seeker is a MR 10-11, i think. with that, i'll stop my argument there, No offence, this is an issue mainly for high mastery players seeking challenges and fun mostly

First off, in-game rank =/= forums rank.

Second, just because you're (probably) MR21 doesn't mean you know everything about Warframe, and you just proved it. I know vets that have been playing the game for 2-3 years which are still MR15, and they certainly know more about the game than any of us newly high ranked players. Being MR21 just means you've spent more time ranking up weapons than others.

43 minutes ago, NightElve said:

it's my/our issue for players of higher Mastery and maybe some other players still levelling up, it's mainly our issue not yours.

We all do that buddy, everyone is meant to do that when starting the game due to the huge variety of gear available, it doesn't make you a special snowflake.

48 minutes ago, NightElve said:

This is a conflict of interest, maybe it's just that we have been playing the game for a while, Tonkor, Soma prime... this and other weapons or frames we have used them for quite a while, i personally don't hate them, but at this point in the game, i want to try new mechanics without feeling crippled

Has it ever crossed your mind that it was an issue with you sticking to the old gameplay mechanics? Stand point shoot while spamming powers? It's not hard with a nova and a tonkor with a trin giving you energy and health and a frost shielding you, at that point, nullies pose no problem. But with the new mechanics you're mentionning, nullifiers like all other units of interest in this game pose a threat, as they should, and you're meant to deal with them accordingly, and change your style accordingly. You either evolve, or die. Or stick to the meta and stop complaining. 

[VoidNomade]

28 minutes ago, (XB1)Listed mia 510 said:

Like I Said 6 Shots too drop bubble.

Yes i totally enjoyed you watching fighting bubbles wow such a fun game. :3

[(XBOX)SlohLane]

1 hour ago, NightElve said:

you even copied an image of a Frost with a Quanta vandal,(( DISAPPOINTMENT)) 

Oh and this just further Shows that when I entered said mission I Screen Capped for you I came Highly Prepared too deal with the Nullies.

My team dedicated me too protect the cryo pod and deal with the nullies.. Those were my two Jobs.

So your right I brought my 6 Forma Quanta Vandal with 6500 Magnetic Damage which absolutely shreds nullie bubbles. So my team could focus on their jobs!

This shows that I am aware of an easier way too rid the annoyance from the team too progress too a further difficulty than most people have ever seen.

P.S. I'm still waiting on your screen Shots! At least prove to us you are a high MR Tenno that you claim too be...?

oh and if it helps I could do the T4 over with a Limbo instead of a Frost and worry even less about said Bombards that are Lvl 300+ if that would please you.

Edited June 29, 2016 by (XB1)Listed mia 510

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

9 hours ago, (XB1)Listed mia 510 said:

 

Where were you guys when I needed you!! I got wrekt in this thread defending nullies.

I personally think they are very well designed and if anything could use a buff..

im currently working on a video where I toy around with high level nullies and the enemies that surround them.

it probably won't get any coverage or care but at least I will feel satisfied that I made my point. #NullieBuff

You have to realize Nullifiers, in their current state, need changes.

They are not fine where they are now.

Limiting players to a specific Warframe and weapon(s) is not good game design. It's not fun to be less effective than other players due to your weapon choice. Should you have less damage due to your Elemental and Physical damage types? Sure. Yet making it so certain weapons take too long to the out Nullies isn't good. All weapons should be able to take our said bubbles in a reasonable amount of time.

Secondly, Nullifiers and their damage is ridiculous at range. Sure their accuracy is bad at times, yet at higher levels, they can one-shot any Warframe instantly, and take out massive chunks of your health and shields, even at lower levels. My problem isn't the damage, but the fact that said damage is at range with no way of telling when it's coming. Corrupted Bombards have the same problem, yet at least their rockets are slow and (somewhat) avoidable. Nullifiers can just take pot shots at you in safety from their bubble, which isn't fun. They protect other units and Healers too, making them nearly unstoppable unless you get weapons and Warframes that are borderline OP, and even then, you still die in one hit. I wouldn't mind the damage if it was limited to close range, as that would be punishment for fighting them up close, yet making it so you're taken out by a unit from afar with no warning and no counter-play gets tedious real fast.

Finally, I think most people want changes to Nullifiers, not a hard nerf. If their going to be nerfed, they need to be changed in other ways to compensate. Take away their sniper, but give them a shotgun. Reduce the bubbles size, but make it slightly tougher, etc. Higher level Nullifiers need to be nerfed due to their obscene spawn rates, damage and protection of allies and themselves while still being able to damage you way to easily.

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

13 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Looks like you were just outplayed by the enemy and allowed yourself to be put in a bad situation.

I was also not using the meta gear that made it painfully easy which is what the pro-nullifiers are claiming. Changing up your tactics....after what? Bringing the most optimized gear from a very small pool of weapons and frames? Next you're gonna say armor scaling is fine as long as you have 4 cp's to completely negate it. And if ability spamming is the base problem why is EVERY attempt to reign it in met with such abhorrent reactions. People were ready to burn down the internet after Trinity couldn't heal lost children anymore.

[DatDarkOne]

On 6/27/2016 at 4:29 PM, KirukaChan said:

I just find them annoying since I prefer sniper rifles. I'm typically forced to just bullet jump straight at them and stab them in the face, since using an entire magazine on a single enemy offends my sensibilities.

I'm so glad I clicked on this thread for this one post alone.  With just those words you made me laugh, completely visualize, and appealed to gaming sense of style.  Thank you so much Tenno.  I completely understand this reason more than anything else said about nullies.