Why Nullifiers?

[Manyc]

2 minutes ago, NightElve said:

i said nullifiers are annoying and are bring no fun to the game, that majority of the community agree on

Please, careful with your statements, you do not represent at least 8 million players.

As I told you earlier and ask you to do now, instead of just stating your opinion, present a solution to counter or substitute it.

Right now I'm currently constantly changing my loadouts to try a very high amount of builds, but until very recently I was a main Bow user. It's a slow heavy weapon like many claim to be and I never had a problem with nullifiers, even with the bow I can take care of them. (I just said this to show I'm not baseless).

In no way I meant to be aggressive if it shows in any way. Thank you for your attention.

[DJAYAX]

I personally suggest the nullifier bubble should be penetrable. It daent make sense to have leechers and nullifiers in the same bubble and your supposed to take them out at rank 150... clearly its just impossible

[NightElve]

4 minutes ago, Manyc said:

Please, careful with your statements, you do not represent at least 8 million players.

As I told you earlier and ask you to do now, instead of just stating your opinion, present a solution to counter or substitute it.

Right now I'm currently constantly changing my loadouts to try a very high amount of builds, but until very recently I was a main Bow user. It's a slow heavy weapon like many claim to be and I never had a problem with nullifiers, even with the bow I can take care of them. (I just said this to show I'm not baseless).

In no way I meant to be aggressive if it shows in any way. Thank you for your attention.

Awh.. Hail. the mighty Nullifier said no player ever, no worry your comment isn't aggressive, i just pointed it out, i'm just a Warframe player, i see something i don't enjoy i post here, you talked about offering solutions... well, that's upto the developers. i launch the game play have fun. read..sleep, i didn't sign up to offer solutions nor i'm i supposed to, also it's a thread it get's heated up a bit at times but balanced solutions to come out of it.

[(PSN)LegionOfZoom1410]

I'm not a fan of nerfs I hate them & hate DE doing them however especially when the nerfs are not justfied Valkry excalibut trinty cough cough.. enough with nerfing our stuff let's get to nerfing warframe biggest problem 

If there's something that needs nerfed in this game then this is it..

 

Read below & nerf DE..

 

Not only do I hate the nullifyers I hate bombards as well I think both enemies should be nerfed to oblivion 

Especially the Bombard there fast Reload & fire rate & target locking needs nerfed to the ground 

& I'm sorry but bombards shouldn't be allowed to shoot there stupid rocket tru Frost Snow globe I mean every other enemie has to go inside to shoot you & even attempt to kill you 

 

But not the chicken bombards they too should have to walk inside your snow globe to hit u. Nothing I hate more then running a t4 mobile defense or a t4 defense using snow globe & a chickenbard is hiding in a corner shooting tru Your snow globe faster then you can get up.

Plz Nerf Bombards the most annoying OP enemie in game & nullys can get nerfed too smaller bubbles is fine 

 

Chickenbard Origis needs a slow reloads & fire rate & removal of being able to shoot tru snow globe unless he goes inside no matter if it locks on u or not if he doesn't go inside he can't hurt you but he can hurt & damage ur snow Globe I'm Okey with that 

 

While we are at it plz nerf Energy Drain Eximus Drain Rates make em slower..as some frames do not have the energy cap to stand that drain so plz slow down there rate & range of drain 

 

Same with Arson Eximus Blast range plz lower the range it goes damage is OK but range spreads too far.

 plz nerf em thank u

Edited June 28, 2016 by (PS4)ChiefsFury1984

[VoidNomade]

2 hours ago, ragingdeamon said:

I don't dislike it either. the maximum number of nullifiers I have seen near each other is 2, and it's not that hard to kill them. also, as I said, you can go in and out of their bubble so fast that it doesn't really matter. 

and question: what if someone does enjoy it?

Than this guy should play Bubble Bobble instead of a Scifi Space Magic Shooter.

I´ve regularly encountering multiple Nullifier at least 2 max 4 together paired with frost eximi and heavies in higher survs or def.

Most people i need to pick up are due to them diving into a nulli bubble where they´ve made a bet of how many heavies and ancients are guarding the nullifier since they couldn´t SEE THEM IN THE BUBBLE.

The last sentence goes to @polarity as well.

 

Again, defeating them isn´t the problem, it´s their whole design, their purpose, and their negative impact on the game play and weapons and what they mean for the game development.

They are a dull, uninteresting bullet sponges and fighting again and again versus bubbles and grind bubble after bubble instead of the real enemies is getting frustrating.

I want to fight real interesting enemies and not this chore.

 

[DeMeritus]

17 hours ago, kubbi said:

Reason being

Agreed.

The devs have been stating over and over they're trying to remove "cheese" from Warframe, but never seem to want to admit that nullifiers are the worst offenders on this front.

I don't know anyone that actually likes the nullifiers.  No one I've known personally has ever had a positive reaction to nullifiers.

Mutalist ospreys aka "fart ospreys" are also really bleh.

Also interesting to note that neither nullifiers or mutalist ospreys sem to drop anything worthwhile.

Edited June 28, 2016 by DeMeritus

[Inarticulate]

17 hours ago, kalikilic said:

the theory behind the nullifier is a bit stupid, or stupidly used. i made a post about it some time ago but i cant find it. so i'll just rewrite my thoughts.

think about this. the nullifier carries on its back a device which renders the tenno warframe technology ineffective if cast outside of the bubble. however, if you are within the bubble, it renders all the warframe's abilities useless.

if the corpus were in possession of something this powerful,

1) why have they not utilised this on a large scale? encircle entire settlements with these devices. envelope entire ships with them. tenno would then resort to only being able to shoot at it, until it diminishes, if large scale implementations of that kind would allow any sort of diminishing at all.

2) without weapons, regardless of the scale of implementation, tenno would never dare entire areas with these nullifier bubbles. because they'd die. what does that do for the idea that the "Warframe exo-armor uses unique combative technology to create the ultimate weaponry. The Warframes hold many mysterious powers and mastering one requires dedicated use." =|

3) The apparent dependence on weapons that it ultimately forces on players. For example, Volt is described as "This is a high-damage warframe perfect for players looking for a potent alternative to gunplay." but that's not rly true is it? not with nullifiers around.

a good compromise would be to allow casting of warframe abilities within the bubble.

1. The devices have a limited range, and the device itself is rather bulky. The field is extremely weak to gunfire and physical impact and is therefore only suitable for use in smaller engagements.

2. DE has mentioned allowing bare-hand combat at some point in the future. I am sure there are some players out there who would be glad to take that challenge once it is available.

3. You're pulling Volt's description as a counterargument for nullifiers? Really?

16 hours ago, NightElve said:

you've just said it even better! my friend... Nullifiers even break the lore of the game, with an enemy this powerful why would Tenno bother going into a mission and also why are there no counter measures developed to counter nullifiers.... (but we are sci-fi game and we want fun)

Glaive-type weapons can kill Nullifiers through their nullifier field. Nullifier bubbles are extremely weak to bullets. I wouldn't really say we have no countermeasures.

[Kastorius]

Nullifier/bombard spam is DE's "solution" to power creep and min-maxing. Throwing increasing numbers of bombards and nullifiers at players limits our ability to get too much use out of Void keys or to farm high-level enemies too quickly. Nullifier/bombard spam not only slows down grinding, but is also annoying and makes the game less fun and more tedious, since powers and non-bullet hose weapons become increasingly useless. I believe the annoyance and boredom are intentional and meant to serve as a deterrent alongside the increased artificial difficulty.

Of course, some players enjoy the challenge of going as far as possible despite nullifier/bombard spam.

Personally, I'd much rather fight increasing numbers of Battalysts, Combas, and Bursas, maybe with the occasional boss mixed in, than deal with boring nullifier/bombard spam. It just feels like a cheap, easy cop-out and Band-Aid fix to me.

[Kaiser_Suoh]

I have no problem with them, i just hate nullifiers, do any of you even use Snipers in T4 interceptation? is fun.

I use any type of weapon, but my favorites are Snipers and Shotguns. But i cant have fun with that in void missions because Nullifiers (trying Strun Wraith and Akbronco Prime in endless missions)

Also i dont say "i have problem with Nullifiers" or "they are so hard", instead i just say "Nullifiers make my void missions boring, because automatic weapons are more efficient than my favorite weapons"

Edited June 28, 2016 by Kaiser_Suoh

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

Problems with Nullifiers

• Their bubbles stack with other nullifiers
• Even if you do enough damage to their shield it takes time to completely dispel leaving them still invincible
• They visually obscure the level reducing awareness
• Eximus Nullifiers basically have two shields
• Buffs are instantly wiped out should you go into melee range
• Long-range, there's little to no skillful way with single shot weapons to dispel the bubble
• They spawn way too often in great numbers

The bubble stacking is the worst because the moment you drop one, the other is behind it, and that gives the first one time to recover. It's a damn mess. And yes I'm using automatic weapons. That doesn't excuse how lame it is going full auto and basically hitting nothing for a solid 5 seconds. Same with the double shield Eximus's.

If you're playing as say Equinox or Inaros who has to build their buffs up first, running in to shank or point blank them in the face isn't your first choice. And unlike Scrambas or Combas you can't hit them with any ability to disable them. It's either no bubble or bust for slowing them, and they ignore it anyways once the bubble regens.

Edited June 28, 2016 by (PS4)Tactless_Ninja

[TheScytale]

Meh. I usually deal with them, regardless of what I have. My only suggestion would be some QoL changes:

• Bows ignore the bubbles, because if glaives can, why not arrows?
• Make the damage cap on each shot scale with fire rate, that way automatic weapons won't suffer much as they (usually) don't reach that cap, and other slow weapons would benefit.
• Make the team buffs and some active effects not dispel. (Invisibility or Hysteria for example are still deactivated.)

But otherwise nullifiers are meant to be priority targets, just like ancients, or bombards, which means they are meant to be taken down first, which won't be too hard regardless of your equipment since they can be seen from afar with their huge bubbles.

The modular corpus units (Comba & co.) are a bigger problem since most of the time, you spot them too late, especially in late survivals when you get huge crowds (where nullifiers can be easily spotted).

Edited June 28, 2016 by TheScytale

[Me.KayOh]

20 hours ago, NightElve said:

you've just said it even better! my friend... Nullifiers even break the lore of the game, with an enemy this powerful why would Tenno bother going into a mission and also why are there no counter measures developed to counter nullifiers.... (but we are sci-fi game and we want fun)

well at least one person understood the point of the post. i have no problems fighting them. i just think the concept is stupid. but no. all you get is rebuttals for the sake of rebutting and measuring e-peens here. 

kudos to you for being different.. 

Edited June 28, 2016 by kalikilic

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

6 hours ago, NightElve said:

btw your comments seem rude or are written in an unfriendly manner, i'm just clarifying to you my thread, don't know if you actually thread the topic, i said nullifiers are annoying and are bring no fun to the game, that majority of the community agree on. i can't even remember being killed by a nullifier, they are not even difficult to deal with,  i'm even talking of the level 1-5 nullifier if there is , i don't know how you derailed this to endless runs, i'm just pointing out they pose no challenge for me/they have never, but they are rather provoking, and annoying, i have read your entire comments and they keep pointing out about Frames, weapon loadouts, ((as i pointed out i at my mastery rank, i know how to deal with them, even the rather majority of the community know)) so comments like good fire rate weapons/punch are just redundant and baseless here, they are annoying and provide no challenge or fun, that's how most of  the players feel about them, other than that we could be complaining about Bombards, Heavy gunner, Energy leech and such..

Well, I've hear people saying that they hate nullifiers, because they limit weapon options to a heavy extent, among other reasons. The problem isn't hating nullifiers. It's hating them for false reason. I don't think it's right for people to argue using what's not true, but they'd probably never know unless pointed out to them. Also, if you read what I was replying to, you would probably understand the reasoning to most of what was saying.

[(XBOX)SlohLane]

I only use bows, shotguns, snipers... Blah blah.

i main Snipetron and VHek, my secondary main is Rakta Ballistica and Brakk, My Melee Main is Lacera and Atterax. 

Let me make a very disturbing comparison for you "bow,shotgun,sniper" types..

Twin Wraith Vipers takes a full clip too drop a bully bubble, grakatas takes almost a full clip, soma p take half of its clip sometimes more if you numb too modding correctly.

my VHek takes 7 shots too drop lvl 80 bombard bub and get the kill.

my Snipetron takes one full clip (6 shots) too drop the bub then one shot too lol. (7 shots total)

LITERALLY IN COMPARISON MAKING SAID SLOWER FIRE RATE WEAPONS MORE AFFECTIVE THAN ANY FULL AUTO WEAPON NEEDING TRIPLE OR QUADRUPLE THE AMMO TOO DROP BUB AND KILL BULLY BUBBLE.

Just because you don't know how too deal correct damage types or directly deal with an enemy the most efficient way possible is not anyone's fault but your own!

i personally will be hot if bullies bubs are nerfed.  This nerf trend really is getting old.

@DE this trend is making me worry when I'll have too find a new game. #Do not listen too the masses Please, nullies are fine as is. They are perfectly implemented and the people complaining have not taken the time to realize how your damage types are implemented.

[ariivanasan]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Listed mia 510 said:

---

you're not only1 who play this games. many think (me included) that nullifiers must be removed from the game or atleast nerf to the ground because they op as hell and not fun at all

this is must too be done
 

[(XBOX)SlohLane]

1 minute ago, ariivanasan said:

you're not only1 who play this games. many think (me included) that nullifiers must be removed from the game or atleast nerf to the ground because they op as hell and not fun at all

this is must too be done
 

They are not OP you are simply combating them incorrectly.

[Fionntan]

12 minutes ago, (XB1)Listed mia 510 said:

They are not OP you are simply combating them incorrectly.

Missed the point though, majority can still kill them in a flash so that isn't the issue.

The issue is they are eyesore & do a poor job on their original purpose; so far they only create cheap challenge in high level content for the sake of it.

[(XBOX)SlohLane]

7 minutes ago, Fionntan said:

Missed the point though, majority can still kill them in a flash so that isn't the issue.

The issue is they are eyesore & do a poor job on their original purpose; so far they only create cheap challenge in high level content for the sake of it.

How exactly do they do a poor job on their original purpose??

they appear too work exactly how intended. 

They protect their allies inside a very small radius, we're talking what 5m max. They offer weaker enemies and challenging enemies a way to be more of a challenge while power creep continues to increase.

they shield from power spam and CC which is the number one thing complained about.

people asking for said mechanic too be removed are simply further allowing power creep too continue in an unnecessary direction.

lets be real people say DE removes nullies then what we move onto Scrambus's because they do the same exact thing except the aura is invisible? But yet takes no skill too kill one.

this argument about nullies is null its people looking too create less challenge because they don't understand the simple mechanic of enemies protecting enemies.

the nullies does exactly that it shields its allies, that being said it shows that enemies are becoming more intelligent And diverse by being able too actually protect themselves. Something people have asked for for a very long time. Now that's it's happening the gen public wants it reversed! That's insanity.

[(XBOX)SlohLane]

Allow the explosion radius on ppls precious tonkor too deal damage through the bubble (just as explosion damage can go through frost bubble) if grenade happens too not bounce too far away. This will make these ppl happy and allow them too continue using their weapon of choice!

Rework complete!

Edited July 5, 2016 by [DE]Danielle
Removed inflammatory comment

[Fionntan]

8 minutes ago, (XB1)Listed mia 510 said:

How exactly do they do a poor job on their original purpose??

they appear too work exactly how intended. 

They protect their allies inside a very small radius, we're talking what 5m max. They offer weaker enemies and challenging enemies a way to be more of a challenge while power creep continues to increase.

they shield from power spam and CC which is the number one thing complained about.

people asking for said mechanic too be removed are simply further allowing power creep too continue in an unnecessary direction.

lets be real people say DE removes nullies then what we move onto Scrambus's because they do the same exact thing except the aura is invisible? But yet takes no skill too kill one.

this argument about nullies is null its people looking too create less challenge because they don't understand the simple mechanic of enemies protecting enemies.

the nullies does exactly that it shields its allies, that being said it shows that enemies are becoming more intelligent And diverse by being able too actually protect themselves. Something people have asked for for a very long time. Now that's it's happening the gen public wants it reversed! That's insanity.

Their purpose was to stop AoE spam, but instead they force folks to limit on weapon choice & frame aka "active" playstyles suffer more.

Also it was at a time when Mesa had tipped the Power Creep too far.

Now that said frames like Mesa got nerfed and possibly more incoming for other frames and/or weapons, the Nullifiers are nothing but laughable bump on the road that needs to either be tweaked or demolished.

On the possible of chance that they pick to tweak them, I'd support this quote:

On 6/5/2016 at 7:42 PM, (XB1)Graysmog said:

I'd say, limit them. Buff them and change them in other areas, but change their mechanics.

Taking out Nullifiers would only present more problems scaling wise then it would solve.

As for their changes, having them the way they are now really doesn't make much sense. Their supposed to limit Nuking abilities (which, truth be told, they do), yet in reality, they offer very little counterplay and punish certain Warframes and Weapons. You either get a high RoF weapon to deal with them at range, or you melee them at close range with whatever BS enemies they have in their with them. Both will most likely get you killed or limit you severely, since having to change up your weapons and Warframes (as we all know Tanks aren't exactly in a good place end-game wise thanks to Nullies) isn't good, it really only shows how bad of an enemy they truly are. You should have to change your tactics against specific enemy types, not your entire loadout. We already have a system in place that let's us deal with specific enemy types in the form of Elemental Combinations, we really shouldn't need to do much more than that.

1.) Nullifiers need to Nullify Enemies

I think this is possibly the most important fix overall to Nullifiers as a whole, aside from their spawn rates. Nullifiers should really add some interesting benefits, and downsides, to allies and foes alike. Making it so enemies in the Nullifiers bubble cannot be affected by Warframe Powers, but are also unable to shoot/attack/Heal out and inside of said bubble would make them a much easier threat to deal with. Ancients can't heal them, Bombards can't erase you in complete safety and Nullifiers lose their immortality inside of their bubble.

2.) Nullifiers can't Shut Down Everything

I think we all know the main thing I'm talking about as of now, which would happen to be Tanks and their complete uselessness against Nullifiers as a whole. A Tanks job is to distract, disrupt and soak up damage. With a Nullifier, that is essentially impossible. Due to this, most Tanks in the game aren't very effective at all against the Corpus or in the Void, simply due to the fact that their abilities are completely shut off upon entering the bubble. I will say, however, that Nullifers should still pose a threat to Warframes overall, but shouldn't be complete BS against one type of Warframe. Making it so they worked much more like Comba units and shut off your abilities (and didn't allow you to activate them) until you got out of their range or killed them would be the best solution, I feel. They'd shut off every ability, aside from Self-Buffs, so Tanks can be a great counter to them when it comes to Melee. To combat this, however, Nullifiers would get a powerful shotgun they could only use inside of their bubble, limiting their damage from afar but making them a much more dangerous enemy up close, much like their Detron and Corrupted Brethren.

3.) Nullies Can't block Everything

Another counter to them that allows certain Weapons to actually deal sufficient damage to the Nullifiers bubble. Low RoF weapons are terrible against them, while weapons like Snipers and Bows are completely useless against them. This change is in an iffy spot for me, as I honestly feel Nullifier bubbles should be based around Damage taken, not the amount of hits they take, yet that'd leave them far too vulnerable to explosives and Shotguns alike. Honestly, I think making it so Shotguns (due to their high pellet count), would be great to use against Nullifier bubbles, along with Snipers, (which could go through the bubble and instantly kill the Nullifier inside) Bows, (which could destroy the bubble in one shot, needing an extra to kill the Nullifier, due to them being much easier to use) and Low RoF weapons (which could count as 2x the damage to Nullifier bubbles, in comparison to High RoF weapons). That way, Nullie bubbles could keep their amounts of shots needed to take down the bubble, but other weapons wouldn't be so limited by it.

4.) Nullifiers need to Spawn Less

Pretty self explanatory, limit their spawns. Seriously.

With all these changes in mind, Nullifiers would still be a force to be reckoned with, but would be easier for everyone involved to take down.

 

[(XBOX)SlohLane]

I've already proved that High rate of fire weapons aren't the only way by allowing a comparison too be made with 2 different slow firing weapons that do the job more efficiently than any high rate of fire weapon.

this debate is seriously about people wanting too kill the enemy at a faster pace. Which in turn simply creates more power creep.

[DeadlyPeanutt]

On 6/27/2016 at 5:21 PM, NightElve said:

Rather they are very annoying, it's like the small kid bullying the tall tough kid, can't throw a punch but will keep provoking... Nullies remind me of hours i wasted Fighting Vergil, having forgotten to use devil trigger to do the final blow (Devil May Cry), you have it under control but you don't.

Nullifiers are an example of WF's lazy design of high difficulty missions.   imho, WF is primarily designed for low to mid level players who are grinding/buying lots of junk.  High difficulty tends to be more annoying than challenging.  Game Dev nerf players' shields/health/energy/weapons choices and use the same mobs of bots with the same behavior, simply increasing their health pools and DPS.

Nullies are stupid slow moving bots that are a good example of this lazy design at higher levels. 

Many PvE games at higher difficulty levels give players new bots that exhibit interesting and challenging movement patterns, reactions and weapons. 

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

The debate is about not dying miserably. You ever been in a scenario where you're wall to wall surrounded by nullifiers grouped in with all kinds of other nasty units and no possible way to reasonably counter-attack? Especially if a few of your teammates are down. Yeah that's nice you know how to perfectly execute one in an optimal situation. How bout 5 with a few bursas thrown in S#&$ting missiles everywhere and dragging you by your heels. Hell even a few ospreys will mess you up.

High level content your health/shields/armor are all paper and need to rely on buffs and CC both of which the nullifier slaps out of your hand. Either it's debuff ability needs to be removed (a role which Combas/Scrambas have fallen into) or it needs some sort of achilles heel on the bubble itself. 

Edited June 28, 2016 by (PS4)Tactless_Ninja

[Dreddeth]

18 hours ago, NightElve said:

i'm MR 20, and other players/majority of the community , know very obviously how to deal with this nullifiers, my main issue is they are just annoying, for a game that has that much weapons to stick to 1 weapon is just boring, that's why people will call nerfs to Tonkor, why? enemy types like these and scaling, i want to use Saryn but should i keep dodging nullifiers each time, it's annoying, this nullifiers will end up ruining the game experience, as i said Nullifiers have never been/will never i just go with a good group synergy, and we can do 4 hours plus T4, they are just an annoyance, and they prevent players like me, from using the other junk frames and weapons that community neglects because of the enemy types like nullifiers/scaling, i'm done levelling i want fun but there isn't.

I only mentioned it because up until I got Ivara I didn't know you could do that.

Not saying I like Nullies, either. Almost all my favorite guns are charge or semi-auto, so I probably hate the bastards even more than the average player.

[ragingdeamon]

17 hours ago, VoidNomade said:

Than this guy should play Bubble Bobble instead of a Scifi Space Magic Shooter.

I´ve regularly encountering multiple Nullifier at least 2 max 4 together paired with frost eximi and heavies in higher survs or def.

Most people i need to pick up are due to them diving into a nulli bubble where they´ve made a bet of how many heavies and ancients are guarding the nullifier since they couldn´t SEE THEM IN THE BUBBLE.

The last sentence goes to @polarity as well.

 

Again, defeating them isn´t the problem, it´s their whole design, their purpose, and their negative impact on the game play and weapons and what they mean for the game development.

They are a dull, uninteresting bullet sponges and fighting again and again versus bubbles and grind bubble after bubble instead of the real enemies is getting frustrating.

I want to fight real interesting enemies and not this chore.

 

If defeating them wasn't a problem, you would just kill them and this discussion would never take place. Killing them while they are protecting other units counts as killing them. 

how are they dull and bullet sponges? they are more interesting than some bosses, that just are there and shoot you like normal enemies instead of having interesting mechanics. also, define interesting enemies, because it might be subjective.

you say killing them becomes a problem when there are many in one place and surrounded by heavy units. by my experience this happens only in very high level scenarios, at which point you should come prepared with weapons to counter them and not bring your favorite weapons because they are your favorite weapons. it's not like you can bring any frame to any mission expecting to use all powers. varying your playstyle is part of the game. 

for example, you don't bring a low ammo efficency weapon in a long survival; even if you have ammo restores, you are forced to stay in a specific place and that can kill you. but you bring that very weapon in something like a sabotage or capture because you don't kill nearly as many enemies and it's probably faster to kill the capture target with that weapon. you bring CC frames in endless missions because they help, but if you bring them in a exterminate the help can be very marginal.