Zephyr's passive tweaks.

[Lijka]

After reading the topic, I see that people enjoy her passive. Cool, glad to see she has so many fervent defenders :)

I would like, in that case, ask for an augment mod for her, that gives her normal gravity. I do enjoy her but when I try to move, by sliding, bullet jumping and then jumping again and sliding or simply sliding again, the moment before she hits the ground to be able to slide takes way more than with a normal gravity frame, costs you speed and therefore breaks my rythm.

Most Zephyr players seem to be fine with that, so, as I said I won't be asking for a change.

I still don't see how her passive allows her to do the parkour better. While longer aim gliding and floating in the air in open maps is fun, I wouldn't want to do it, most of the time, especially since most missions are in closed spaces.

[Birdframe_Prime]

5 minutes ago, jmthebigman said:

her ultimate is a nice CC but could probably use a buff in DMG.

Actually, I believe the opposite. Zephyr's tornado can deal around 2.5k damage per funnel with a fairly average strength build and the element type changed to something more useful than magnetic by shooting the funnels (intensify and power drift are usually enough as long as you don't have overextended on), that's per target picked up, and at four funnels it's the potential for 10k overall. Compare that with the max damage builds for other frames, and their ultimates and it's actually quite well balanced. Rhino's stomp only deals around 2.8k maxed, while the high end is Frost's avalanche with just over 5k. Saryn and Ash are the freaks with up to 15k and 20k per target respectively due to Saryn's toxin+viral proc combo multipliers and Ash's bleed proc (his blade storm only deals 7k, Saryn's Miasma can get up to 5k without the procs). So Tornado actually has pretty decent damage for what it is.

On the other hand the CC is actually fairly weak because the funnels are so slow, erratic and can occasionally just sit off to the side and hit nothing for the entire duration.

What Tornado needs is the ability to not wander off uselessly into corners or out of the map, and to actually seek targets to deal that damage to, if it wants to be a Crowd Control ability then it needs to be where the crowds are, and to prevent them from doing what they want to do. As it stands, Tentacle Swarm is a better CC ability than Tornado...

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 minutes ago, Lijka said:

After reading the topic, I see that people enjoy her passive. Cool, glad to see she has so many fervent defenders :)

I would like, in that case, ask for an augment mod for her, that gives her normal gravity. I do enjoy her but when I try to move, by sliding, bullet jumping and then jumping again and sliding or simply sliding again, the moment before she hits the ground to be able to slide takes way more than with a normal gravity frame, costs you speed and therefore breaks my rythm.

Most Zephyr players seem to be fine with that, so, as I said I won't be asking for a change.

I still don't see how her passive allows her to do the parkour better. While longer aim gliding and floating in the air in open maps is fun, I wouldn't want to do it, most of the time, especially since most missions are in closed spaces.

Wow, you're surprisingly chill about this...

I see your point, of course, zephyr's movement style is a much different rhythm than the other frames and it takes getting used to. I highly doubt that there'll be a mod that allows regular gravity on her though, it's a fairly bad use for an entire mod slot on a frame that needs all of them for her regular builds.

That said, there are only a few tile sets, like the Corpus Ship and Grineer Galleon that have overwhelming amounts of closed in space, and these are all usually reserved for the earlier part of the game. The later maps all have multiple tiles, especially the important tiles (like mobile defense, excavation, defense, almost every room that spawns life support in survival, and most void tiles) that have high ceilings and lots of room for mobility and verticality that Zephyr can exploit. I love survival runs in void with Zephyr, as long as you take good weapons she can chew through most of the place and always has escape routes up and away from the fight.

[Lijka]

Why wouldn't I be chill? :) I am only a beginning Zephyr player, she appeals to me, but I find her movement quirky and not to my taste. That's no reason to ask for a change, that would clearly hurt her devoted players :)

Yes, I know, thet the augment mod is probably not going to happen, but it doesn't hurt to ask for DE to consider it, does it? It would be a choice to use it an not to and I have always been a strong supporter of giving WF players more choice in their loadouts and weapons.

You are quite correct on the high ceilings in the Void and few other places. Somehow it feels tho, that most missions I do is rather claustrophobic. Anyways, I will just need to get used to her movement.

[jmthebigman]

1 hour ago, Lijka said:

Why wouldn't I be chill? :) I am only a beginning Zephyr player, she appeals to me, but I find her movement quirky and not to my taste. That's no reason to ask for a change, that would clearly hurt her devoted players :)

Yes, I know, thet the augment mod is probably not going to happen, but it doesn't hurt to ask for DE to consider it, does it? It would be a choice to use it an not to and I have always been a strong supporter of giving WF players more choice in their loadouts and weapons.

You are quite correct on the high ceilings in the Void and few other places. Somehow it feels tho, that most missions I do is rather claustrophobic. Anyways, I will just need to get used to her movement.

btw you can hang for a long time in the air with zephyr

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Aviator + http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Agility_Drift is an option

[ObviousLee]

19 hours ago, Lijka said:

I would like you to show me how. No irony, I am genuinely curious because as much as I otherwise enjoy Zephyr, the low gravity and how slow it makes her (if I don't use first skill) is a real deterrent for me. She feels clunky and simply slow. I'd like to be shown otherwise.

will be happy to show you this evening. Add me in game and when I log in tonight I'll blow your mind.  

[Lijka]

1 hour ago, ObviousLee said:

will be happy to show you this evening. Add me in game and when I log in tonight I'll blow your mind.  

Cool, will look for you in game :)

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

I made some quick sloppy gameplay before work to show off Zephyr a bit for some effective gameplay. Yes for this build with her I'm using tonkor but I can easily switch if need be.

I dont have the tools for high video stuff sorry

 

Edited June 30, 2016 by (PS4)RenovaKunumaru

[Lijka]

I appreciate you making the effort :)

However, big, open spaces like Pluto's excavation aren't really the issue, nor is her 1st ability. It's the tighter spaces that are a problem, slide + bullet/double jump followed by another slide is where it's at. I'm going to try and catch @ObviousLee in game so he can show me, how Zephyr utilizes parkour better in those situations.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

1 minute ago, Lijka said:

I appreciate you making the effort :)

However, big, open spaces like Pluto's excavation aren't really the issue, nor is her 1st ability. It's the tighter spaces that are a problem, slide + bullet/double jump followed by another slide is where it's at. I'm going to try and catch @ObviousLee in game so he can show me, how Zephyr utilizes parkour better in those situations.

No problem.

All frames have advantages and disadvantages and if a particular tileset is causing you some issues due to parkour I'd recommend you take advantages of the speed buff the turbulence augment offers and run in small areas. With a bit of practice, you can manage tailwind inside small areas as well with short hops, bullet gliding to slow momentum and directional changes during tailwind too. You can even fire your weapon, (I'd recommend at least a single AoE weapon using Zephyr) while casting tailwind in case enemies are in your way.  

There isn't a single tileset that doesn't have a single open space that allows Zephyr to soar.

The only issue I have with Tailwind is that it doesn't move enemies within its path. That's really stupid. If I tailwind directly at an enemy You will be held in place at their body while still flying forward. Unmoved. They need to be knocked down or pushed away.

[Lijka]

Yes, I was looking at the augment and it indeed may be the solution to my problem, although at this point it's more of a muscle memory to slide and jump and slide than a conscious thing :x

Thank you :)

[ZizWing]

On 29-6-2016 at 10:43 AM, Reifnir said:

Zephyr needs a rework anyway. 

Her 1 and 2 are useless, 3 is somewhat unreliable and 4 is weak and clutters the screen to much.

As a main zephyr player I think you are partially right. I use her 1 all the time to either adjust movement mid-air or to increase length and speed of my current jump, it's very useful and I don't think it's necessary to change this at all. Her 2 on the other hand, go ahead, go crazy, do something, I only use it to spam particles at the exit... 1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2...

Now... Turbulence, her 3. In case you haven't noticed, it is no longer unreliable. In either lunaro 1 or 2 her hitscan protection was fixed (finally) and she now plays exactly how you'd expect, deflecting ALL bullets with a minuscule chance of getting hit. I have quite a few survivals up to 40 minutes and the only times I lost my shield was when either the ability was not active or I got hit by a bombard missile (I use a low-range build, high range eliminates the chance of getting hit by bombards). Just try it again and see for yourself. As far as I know the only thing that does not get deflected properly are hellion rockets. So be careful with those. (same goes for Kela de Thaym).

Her 4... well, I like it but this is where she's truly unreliable. The tornadoes seem to just randomly fly about, creating chaos, doing little damage and making it impossible to hit enemies in them. it's a nice panic-button but it doesn't help much. So once again, feel free to change this however you like, though I think it should go the crowd-control route and not damage. Unless it's similar to mag's rework where shooting it increases the damage over time or something like that.

And on topic with the OP: if her second ability becomes more useful and you combine bulletjump with the environment and tailwind, her passive is really not a hindrance at all. I get where it's coming from since there's no real reason to hang in the air longer unless you want to use tailwind, but the reason is there in divebomb, it's just not a very good reason at the moment. That said, a lot of other comments already have good suggestions.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

12 minutes ago, zY_Spartan_Yz said:

As a main zephyr player I think you are partially right. I use her 1 all the time to either adjust movement mid-air or to increase length and speed of my current jump, it's very useful and I don't think it's necessary to change this at all. Her 2 on the other hand, go ahead, go crazy, do something, I only use it to spam particles at the exit... 1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2...

Now... Turbulence, her 3. In case you haven't noticed, it is no longer unreliable. In either lunaro 1 or 2 her hitscan protection was fixed (finally) and she now plays exactly how you'd expect, deflecting ALL bullets with a minuscule chance of getting hit. I have quite a few survivals up to 40 minutes and the only times I lost my shield was when either the ability was not active or I got hit by a bombard missile (I use a low-range build, high range eliminates the chance of getting hit by bombards). Just try it again and see for yourself. As far as I know the only thing that does not get deflected properly are hellion rockets. So be careful with those. (same goes for Kela de Thaym).

Her 4... well, I like it but this is where she's truly unreliable. The tornadoes seem to just randomly fly about, creating chaos, doing little damage and making it impossible to hit enemies in them. it's a nice panic-button but it doesn't help much. So once again, feel free to change this however you like, though I think it should go the crowd-control route and not damage. Unless it's similar to mag's rework where shooting it increases the damage over time or something like that.

And on topic with the OP: if her second ability becomes more useful and you combine bulletjump with the environment and tailwind, her passive is really not a hindrance at all. I get where it's coming from since there's no real reason to hang in the air longer unless you want to use tailwind, but the reason is there in divebomb, it's just not a very good reason at the moment. That said, a lot of other comments already have good suggestions.

If Divebombs damage scaled with melee mods it would be a better move. Also, Zephyr would benefit from increased damage on her Tornadoes as well as the ability to decast them for repositioning. Also as I mentioned earlier in this thread, when I collide with enemies while Tailwind, they should take damage and be knocked down.

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

The only issue I have with Tailwind is that it doesn't move enemies within its path. That's really stupid. If I tailwind directly at an enemy You will be held in place at their body while still flying forward. Unmoved. They need to be knocked down or pushed away.

See this is why I believe that Dive Bomb and Tailwind should work off the same ability number, because then the Dive Bomb Vortex mod would be able to affect Tailwind. Make it ragdoll! Charge through tunnels and knock everything over one way, smash down on them drawing them into range the other!

Have the ordinary ability there for players who just like to fly around, but then have the augment for those that want to play grineer bowling XD

[ZizWing]

8 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

If Divebombs damage scaled with melee mods it would be a better move. Also, Zephyr would benefit from increased damage on her Tornadoes as well as the ability to decast them for repositioning. Also as I mentioned earlier in this thread, when I collide with enemies while Tailwind, they should take damage and be knocked down.

As far as I know tailwind does a little bit of damage in the same way the original slash dash used to work. But yes this should be the case. It would make it very amusing to fly head first into a bombard and see their corpse fly off to god knows where instead. As for tornado, good point about the recasting, I remember making a build for tornado once and long duration actually being a bad thing for that, not that the build was very useful to begin with compared to other frames. As for divebomb, sure I literally don't care anymore. replace it, have it cast a stationary turbulence on the spot, scale with melee mods, form a tornado on the spot, reduce the cost, quicken the landing animation, give it a use while grounded, ANYTHING will do as far as I'm concerned.

Edited July 2, 2016 by zY_Spartan_Yz
spelling (it's 4am give me break and yes going to sleep now)

[ZizWing]

6 hours ago, Thaylien said:

See this is why I believe that Dive Bomb and Tailwind should work off the same ability number, because then the Dive Bomb Vortex mod would be able to affect Tailwind. Make it ragdoll! Charge through tunnels and knock everything over one way, smash down on them drawing them into range the other!

Have the ordinary ability there for players who just like to fly around, but then have the augment for those that want to play grineer bowling XD

"Tailwind creates a vacuum behind Zephyr due to extreme speed, causing anything that's not stuck to the ground to be pulled towards her."

I could see this work on both enemies and loot drops. Scale it with range and it's pretty balanced too since that would counter a Jetstream build. (Although that is one of my favorite augments, it would be more balanced this way.) In all honesty this could be an augment and divebomb could get an even better buff/rework/whatever.

[RunningTree3]

If low gravity seems to be problematic, perhaps a suggestion would be to make  air-crouch and air-kicks (crouch+forward in midair) be more 'aerodynamic' and thus cause Zephyr to fall at regular gravity, thereby also giving her back more control to perform air-kick knockdowns that other frames get to do -- while still retaining the "air slide" (crouch+forward+aimglide)

That said, I am personally comfortable adjusting to Zephyr's rhythm; but would definitely support widening the range of options -- though preferably not by augment mod.

[Lijka]

4 hours ago, RunningTree3 said:

If low gravity seems to be problematic, perhaps a suggestion would be to make  air-crouch and air-kicks (crouch+forward in midair) be more 'aerodynamic' and thus cause Zephyr to fall at regular gravity, thereby also giving her back more control to perform air-kick knockdowns that other frames get to do -- while still retaining the "air slide" (crouch+forward+aimglide)

This would be the perfect solution for my problem. Thank you! It's exactly my complaint explained much better and with an excellent solution.

[Reifnir]

16 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Dive Bomb and Tailwind should work off the same ability number, because then the Dive Bomb Vortex mod would be able to affect Tailwind

TBH, Divebomb doesn't really fit Zephyr - even lore-wise. 

She's a lightweight frame, and even if we take the fall acceleration into account, it doesn't make much sense that she slams her beak into the ground into a blast - birds don't do that, they swoop in, not ram. But a combination ability could work in some way. If we're talking drastic changes, then something like this:

1) Tail Wind should become her core ability - turning on flight mode. Everyone can bullet jump now, Zephyr should be able to actually fly. (toggle? Energy drain?)

2) Dive Bomb should perform a quick, swoop-like, hit-and-return targeted attack - think Ash's Teleport, but with Zephyr returning to initial position (usable only mid-air), and deal AoE slash damage with guaranteed chance to proc around the target (3-6 meters? Shoudln't be too much). Would also need a name change - to Talon Strike or something. Augment idea - depending on Zephyr's energy color, ability causes additional elemental damage (again, with a guaranteed proc). Maybe integrate Melee Combo Counter into that. 

3) Let's say it's fine for now, if they finally fixed the reliability bug.

4) Zephyr spawns a large wind storm (think a spinning Vauban's Bastille) at the target position, which quickly expands (at about double the rate Limbo's Cataclysm shrinks). Enemies that come in contact with tornado are caught by it for ability's duration and are ragdolled, receiving Impact damage. When the ability expires, it blows enemies away in a final, violent burst, dealing blast damage. 

Augment "Chillwind" - reverses the way it works, making the storm spawn at max range, and shrink while spinning. Enemies are similarly ragdolled, but are dealt Cold damage on the way. Eventually the storm shrinks, squeezing any enemies caught into a nice and tight bundle, and freezes them for 2/3/4/5 seconds. 

[RunningTree3]

21 minutes ago, Reifnir said:

TBH, Divebomb doesn't really fit Zephyr - even lore-wise. 

She's a lightweight frame, and even if we take the fall acceleration into account, it doesn't make much sense that she slams her beak into the ground into a blast - birds don't do that, they swoop in, not ram.

Zephyr should totally be able summon a pack of swooping birds.

Divebomb is likely a propelled dive, rather than just a free-fall. Then also consider that Zephyr is still a warframe, alloy armour and all, and with the ability to manipulate air. I think of it more in the realm of compressed air like in a pneumatic drill (aka jackhammer).

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

Zephyr is my favorite main. I have no issues with her passive. I only wish De would lift some of the reset limits on certain maps so she doesn't end up in a black screen over a really good jump. 

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, Reifnir said:

TBH, Divebomb doesn't really fit Zephyr - even lore-wise. 

She's a lightweight frame, and even if we take the fall acceleration into account, it doesn't make much sense that she slams her beak into the ground into a blast - birds don't do that, they swoop in, not ram. But a combination ability could work in some way. If we're talking drastic changes, then something like this:

1) Tail Wind should become her core ability - turning on flight mode. Everyone can bullet jump now, Zephyr should be able to actually fly. (toggle? Energy drain?)

Sadly, the toggle flight option is very unlikely to happen, as in super-highly-DE-would-have-to-reanimate-and-reprogram-the-entire-combat-system-zephyr-uses-to-make-it-viable unlikely. Besides, you'd either end up with a steer-able tailwind, which is good, but only really useful for those with quick reactions and would probably need a system of 'perching' where you recover against walls and re-cast, or you'd end up with archwing controls, which would be clunky as all hell in confined spaces or low ceilings (you'd be better off running than flying in many tiles).

We've been debating that for months now, and the simple answer that myself and others came up with is that anything that a flying zephyr could do, a non-flying one could do exactly as well, and the effort DE would have to put in to make a flying zephyr outweighs the pay-off vastly. (I may come under fire from Esorono, he's my biggest nemesis when it comes to this argument, absolutely adamant that this conclusion isn't enough to say that she shouldn't fly. We'll see ^^)

That said, this;

1 hour ago, Reifnir said:

2) Dive Bomb should perform a quick, swoop-like, hit-and-return targeted attack - think Ash's Teleport, but with Zephyr returning to initial position (usable only mid-air), and deal AoE slash damage with guaranteed chance to proc around the target (3-6 meters? Shoudln't be too much). Would also need a name change - to Talon Strike or something. Augment idea - depending on Zephyr's energy color, ability causes additional elemental damage (again, with a guaranteed proc). Maybe integrate Melee Combo Counter into that.

This plays into exactly the kind of ability I think Zephyr should have. She's so... uninteractive the way she is, you evade, you jet around, you can't actually influence the battlefield at all without an annoying 4 or smashing your head into the ground. The first is so uncontrollable and the second is really underpowered.

A targeted strike ability, whether it's damage, status or CC based, definitely works. Heck, why not keep the augment that Dive Bomb has now, as well, the vortex currently ragdolls enemies into the middle of the strike, so having a Talon Strike Vortex wouldn't be far from the theme, pulling enemies into the strike zone for additional ragdoll.

I don't agree with the energy-colour changes the type of damage, Zephyr does have a little of that effect on Tornado, but the colour-to-damage type is Chroma's passive, we can't directly steal from other frames.

And I do like this:

2 hours ago, Reifnir said:

4) Zephyr spawns a large wind storm (think a spinning Vauban's Bastille) at the target position, which quickly expands (at about double the rate Limbo's Cataclysm shrinks). Enemies that come in contact with tornado are caught by it for ability's duration and are ragdolled, receiving Impact damage. When the ability expires, it blows enemies away in a final, violent burst, dealing blast damage. 

Augment "Chillwind" - reverses the way it works, making the storm spawn at max range, and shrink while spinning. Enemies are similarly ragdolled, but are dealt Cold damage on the way. Eventually the storm shrinks, squeezing any enemies caught into a nice and tight bundle, and freezes them for 2/3/4/5 seconds. 

This is definitely a viable alternative to the other re-works I've seen. I think that an AI rework to Tornado would be the simplest way of doing things, but if we were going to get a complete rework to how it functions then this is probably the best of the alternatives I've seen.

Good area denial and CC, can have a decent damage to it if enemies are caught for the whole duration, and a range cap would encourage people to use more efficiency and strength for it... maybe duration would affect how fast it moves, so a long duration would CC the area for longer and hit the max range slower. Might need a toggle off the same way that Cataclysm does to counter that.

Aside from some tweaks, I like how you think.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

10 hours ago, Lijka said:

This would be the perfect solution for my problem. Thank you! It's exactly my complaint explained much better and with an excellent solution.

I disagree with this notion. 

Practice the frame and you will eventually master its movement properties. The idea I'm getting from this suggestion is that moving is hard, please make it easier. Correct me if I'm wrong.

6 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Sadly, the toggle flight option is very unlikely to happen...

I'm so tired of seeing people ask for flight. Just play Titania when she releases if that's so important. That doesn't benefit Zephyr.

8 hours ago, Reifnir said:

4) Zephyr spawns a large wind storm (think a spinning Vauban's Bastille) at the target position, which quickly expands (at about double the rate Limbo's Cataclysm shrinks). Enemies that come in contact with tornado are caught by it for ability's duration and are ragdolled, receiving Impact damage. When the ability expires, it blows enemies away in a final, violent burst, dealing blast damage. 

 

This idea is wonderful. Vaubans move with tornadoes. The biggest issue is fixing the scaling for damage.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 minute ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I'm so tired of seeing people ask for flight. Just play Titania when she releases if that's so important. That doesn't benefit Zephyr.

Me too. You cannot believe the arguments I've had over it. Anything flying Zeph could do, running Zeph could do, it adds nothing.

2 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

This idea is wonderful. Vaubans move with tornadoes. The biggest issue is fixing the scaling for damage.

Glad you think so, it's kind of that hybrid-with-a-twist of existing abilities that plays very well into what the current game wants people to play with. Rather than pulling enemies into a point, or leaving them suspended at a fixed distance, it actually clears room for the players. It can force enemies off an Interception point, clear room for a res or a Capture, it can be sent out in waves from a defense point too.

Like I said, one of the most viable 'full mechanical rework' ideas I've seen. It would make Zephyr a viable choice for more missions than just sprint-to-the-finish or solo survival ones.