Really DE? we are talking about how we hate nullifiers and you just... BUFF THEM? REALLY?

[(PSN)aiptekfanboy]

11 minutes ago, R34LM said:

This about sums up why every annoying unit is so annoying. If they spawned WAY less then I'd bet people would forget they were even an issue. Seriously, high priority enemies have become so spawn common that they just blend into the fodder category.

Agreed I have no problem with just one nullifier.

The problem stems from when the game says here ya go!! and spawns 35 nullifiers plus bombards and caustic ancients that will one shot me as I try to kill the nullies and all of these in a large crowd with nullies protecting nullies and bombards, caustic ancients, etc.

Thats when I shutdown the game and say no more plat for you DE!!

[(PSN)aiptekfanboy]

9 minutes ago, DaisyHead said:

i was saying you can do it. didn't say you'd get many chances

I can also enter a casino with a single dollar and walk out a millionaire but the chances are slim.

[ashrah]

nullifiers are big crutch really...with barrier like this ppl will even moresearch for exploits..... that is just motivation move...its would be ok if 1-2 spawn per wave but... what u will do wen 10-20 come followed with bomards and heavy gunners...

Edited July 10, 2016 by ashrah

[DaisyHead]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)aiptekfanboy said:

I can also enter a casino with a single dollar and walk out a millionaire but the chances are slim.

look i get there's a bunch of enemies that wreck you, but there are openings to slide it. 

[FrostDragoon]

On 7/8/2016 at 8:50 AM, (PS4)geomancer1980 said:

Every complaint about nullifiers seems to be that they function exactly how they are designed too.

Then the complaints are really that the design is bad. Let it block projectiles or powers, but it doesn't make sense to have it do both, and having it just delete Frost bubbles is overkill. Same with Volt shields and Atlas golems.

[Azrael]

1 hour ago, PureIcarus said:

They are Mutually exclusive points... Nullifiers are 1 point, and the spawn rate/system is another. People hate nullifiers because they cant kill them as easy... thats a very weak reason. The Spawn system on the other hand does indeed have some problems.

If you read any of the posts by people saying they don't like nullifiers, you won't see them say "I hate them because I can't kill them easily. " People have posted hundreds of times that they have no problem killing them, they just see them as bad design and don't like being forced into certain meta. They don't like limiting variety and player choice. Stop using straw man arguments and at least respond to what people are actually saying instead of something you think will be easier to tear down.

Besides, what ever happened to "people who find fault with the game are usually right?" I, for example, think it's very bad design that the bubble turns off mag's magnetize bubbles, since she's designed around using them for cover, to kill, and to survive. It somewhat invalidates that warframe in corpus or void missions. I don't play mag so I can just run around and shoot with no powers. I play her because I want to kill things with her abilities, which I find fun.

[Helleborr]

3 minutes ago, DaisyHead said:

look i get there's a bunch of enemies that wreck you, but there are openings to slide it. 

Again, on paper, yes, but not when the floor is carpeted with overly bright bloom fields of death that kill you in one pulse even if you fly over them, and there are dudes with Lankas, Supras and Flux Rifles shooting you, plus Bursas with rapid-firing radiation shotguns and f****ing rocket artillery bombarding a downed tenno while you're trying to revive. I mean come on, do I have to explain this? Haven't everyone been there?

Nullifiers are fine as a concept, but they are waaaaaay over the top in implementation. Their bubbles are huge, they outright delete your buffs, not even suspend them, they also outright delete the debuffs from mobs outside bubbles if caster enters the bubble, and slow fire-rate / high damage weapons are weak against them. They could have been done right, saving mobs from "mindless ability spam", but instead they mess with your buffs (stacking buffs suffer most from this) and waste a lot of your energy, effectively forcing you to shift towards frames that have high base stats and don't have to rely on abilities.

Remember, choice is a pillar of game design. Anything that takes away choice is bad game design. An enemy that takes away a fundamental aspect of the game such as abilities is a bad enemy.

Instead of this, Nullis could have a soft aura that would make mobs around them immune to debuffs and highly resistant to ability damage, but wouldn't mess with buffs on warframes and wouldn't have the damn projectile-stopping bubble. They also could be much beefier and that would make for a much better enemy.

[Astrotrap]

DE, here is my amazing suggestion for how you can buff Nullifiers to make the game even more balanced away from the favor of the elite super-powered space ninjas so that the inferior "look how many guys we have" factions can, as intended, have superior individual guys than our guys, despite the fact that the whole point is that they have like a million times as many guys as we have, but our guys are way way stronger than them. This way, the [ENEMY FACTION HERE] will be totally unstoppable on even an individual basis.

Remove the Nullifiers. I know it seems a bit unorthodox, but you just have to put a bit of faith in me here. I promise it will actually make them much stronger if you remove them from the game and delete all their backups from your computers. This will definitely make the gameplay more balanced. (oh wait, that last bit is true HUE HUE HUE)

[FrostDragoon]

Quote

Remember, choice is a pillar of game design. Anything that takes away choice is bad game design. An enemy that takes away a fundamental aspect of the game such as abilities is a bad enemy.

This is the exact reason Nullifiers are a poor design decision.

For something similar, but properly designed, look at the Ancient Healers. They give insane damage reduction to nearby enemies, and you can counter this by focusing them first. Their aura doesn't keep you from killing them, though, and that's why it is counter-play and not just overwhelming bullS#&$.

[_-Malicious-Melodi-_]

1 minute ago, Lord_Azrael said:

If you read any of the posts by people saying they don't like nullifiers, you won't see them say "I hate them because I can't kill them easily. " People have posted hundreds of times that they have no problem killing them, they just see them as bad design and don't like being forced into certain meta. They don't like limiting variety and player choice. Stop using straw man arguments and at least respond to what people are actually saying instead of something you think will be easier to tear down.

Besides, what ever happened to "people who find fault with the game are usually right?" I, for example, think it's very bad design that the bubble turns off mag's magnetize bubbles, since she's designed around using them for cover, to kill, and to survive. It somewhat invalidates that warframe in corpus or void missions. I don't play mag so I can just run around and shoot with no powers. I play her because I want to kill things with her abilities, which I find fun.

Yes, people who find faults are generally right... however, without finding the actual cause of the problem or giving reasons/ideas to fix it, it loses its validity. The majority of the complains are "Bad Design" or "Forces Meta"... for starters, Meta needs to be removed from games all together, it just makes the game repetitive. Secondly, "bad design" is too broad... it doesn't show any actual reasons, just sounds like a complaint... On top of that, a vast majority of people feel the nullifier itself works, i can support issues with spawn rates however.

[FrostDragoon]

Quote

Secondly, "bad design" is too broad... 

No, it isn't. There have been several dozen reasons given as to why it is bad design. There's nothing broad about that.

[DaisyHead]

5 minutes ago, Helleborr said:

Again, on paper, yes, but not when the floor is carpeted with overly bright bloom fields of death that kill you in one pulse even if you fly over them, and there are dudes with Lankas, Supras and Flux Rifles shooting you, plus Bursas with rapid-firing radiation shotguns and f****ing rocket artillery bombarding a downed tenno while you're trying to revive. I mean come on, do I have to explain this? Haven't everyone been there?

Nullifiers are fine as a concept, but they are waaaaaay over the top in implementation. Their bubbles are huge, they outright delete your buffs, not even suspend them, they also outright delete the debuffs from mobs outside bubbles if caster enters the bubble, and slow fire-rate / high damage weapons are weak against them. They could have been done right, saving mobs from "mindless ability spam", but instead they mess with your buffs (stacking buffs suffer most from this) and waste a lot of your energy, effectively forcing you to shift towards frames that have high base stats and don't have to rely on abilities.

Remember, choice is a pillar of game design. Anything that takes away choice is bad game design. An enemy that takes away a fundamental aspect of the game such as abilities is a bad enemy.

Instead of this, Nullis could have a soft aura that would make mobs around them immune to debuffs and highly resistant to ability damage, but wouldn't mess with buffs on warframes and wouldn't have the damn projectile-stopping bubble. They also could be much beefier and that would make for a much better enemy.

I know that. that was what i was arguing here. there's too many to deal with other enemies. but it's a non issue now. i did a fissure with one of my clanmates and they were much more modest about when they're supposed to show up.

[_-Malicious-Melodi-_]

7 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

No, it isn't. There have been several dozen reasons given as to why it is bad design. There's nothing broad about that.

"Bad Design" can mean Several Hundred different things... Narrow it down, work out the details... I probably still wont agree, but a detailed list of issues you see is a much stronger argument than a thread screaming for nerfs.

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, PureIcarus said:

Doesn't sound like it... everyone is adamant that nullifiers are the problem, when in reality it is the spawn system people are having an issue with.

 

The Primary problem is enemy damage scaling. The secondary and trietary problems are spawn rates, mechanics ect.

The primary problem amplifies all others and creates a bigger gap between slightly imbalanced and completely OP.

 

It's the reason Tanks and Healers aren't needed in high levels and forcing the Void to lvl 30-40 range doesn't fix that.

Void 2.0 solves nothing in terms of the core mechanics of this game. All it server to do is cover them up and hope no one looks.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Xzorn

[FrostDragoon]

Then lets start with a few of the common ones:

-discourages power-reliant frames/play

-discourages slow rof weapons

-alone, they can be dealt with, but when layered onto all the other special units, they get out of control really fast--this is especially true in void where they can have an ancient healer near them

-undermines 2/3 of frames in the game

-lacks proper counter-play options

 

As I said, there are dozens more I've seen in this thread alone, but these seem to be the most common/obvious.

[_-Malicious-Melodi-_]

Just now, FrostDragoon said:

Then lets start with a few of the common ones:

-discourages power-reliant frames/play

-discourages slow rof weapons

-alone, they can be dealt with, but when layered onto all the other special units, they get out of control really fast--this is especially true in void where they can have an ancient healer near them

-undermines 2/3 of frames in the game

-lacks proper counter-play options

 

As I said, there are dozens more I've seen in this thread alone, but these seem to be the most common/obvious.

i would like to point out one thing real quick is that they are deigned to undermine the "meta" play. For every 1 tactic they block, there are 2 or 3 to counter them.

However, with that being said... 

Yes, they do discourage power reliant frames, but the game was built to try and balance powers with gunplay, Nullifier are an attempt to do so.

Yes, They do discourage low ROF weapons, and i do agree that this is an issue because i like my Dread.

They can become a valid threat when surounded by other enemies, not impossible, but a threat... but i will say, that even with a healer nearby, their hp pool is still very small... Also, enemies cannot shoot into the bubble from the outside, so if you catch it early, its much easier to kill.

 

This is a good start... maybe make a new thread that;s not this one (its a bit full and the op is a bit whiny) and list things out and work with people to make a strong argument and make details and ideas to change them... They wont ever remove them. As i have told people hundreds of times... 1 post with 100,000 supporters is MUCH stronger than 10,000 posts with 10 supporters on each.

[TheBrsrkr]

Nothing of value was lost. 

[FrostDragoon]

Quote

i would like to point out one thing real quick is that they are deigned to undermine the "meta" play. For every 1 tactic they block, there are 2 or 3 to counter them.

Except this isn't the case with nullifiers.

-If they are supposed to balance powers with gunplay, they shouldn't block weapons.

-I'm not advocating removal, but reworking them.

-When there are enough other support units out, they can't really be called a "threat" as much as they make nearly everything else basically invincible.

If you want to start that thread, I'd be happy to continue this discussion there. I'm just not inclined to have to constantly update it to keep up with how the conversation evolves.

[Azrael]

47 minutes ago, PureIcarus said:

without finding the actual cause of the problem or giving reasons/ideas to fix it, it loses its validity.

You will find many suggestions made many times through multiple threads, if you look. And the cause of the problem is that they invalidate legitimate playstyles, abilities, and weapons, thus limiting player choice.

 

49 minutes ago, PureIcarus said:

The majority of the complains are "Bad Design" or "Forces Meta"... for starters, Meta needs to be removed from games all together, it just makes the game repetitive.

Yes. Forces meta. And you agree that meta should be removed from the game. And people say that nullifiers force meta. Sounds like a good point to me!

 

51 minutes ago, PureIcarus said:

Secondly, "bad design" is too broad... it doesn't show any actual reasons, just sounds like a complaint...

You literally just repeated one of the primary reasons. It forces meta, which you believe should be removed.

 

52 minutes ago, PureIcarus said:

On top of that, a vast majority of people feel the nullifier itself works

Got a source for this assumption? There sure seem to be a lot of people here that hate them...

 

30 minutes ago, PureIcarus said:

would like to point out one thing real quick is that they are deigned to undermine the "meta" play.

But they do the opposite. They *enforce* the meta. There are certain ways to kill them, using certain gear or types of gear, that are good at killing them. Everything else gets punished severely. When the most common response to a complaint about them is to recite the meta "just bring a high RoF weapon and don't solo with squishy frames" that's not a sign of an anti-meta enemy. Anytime you have an enemy that invalidates a significant portion of the weapons, frames, and abilities, that's bad design.

Oh, BTW, you know what enemies I love? Bursas, and Hyenas. Also combas. And bombards. Ooh! Also manics! And manic bombards, love those guys. The Rathuum guys are great. And I miss the acolytes from shadow debt (BTW, they used to dispel your abilities like the stalker does). They were fun!

But I strongly dislike nullifiers. There are much better ways to make difficult enemies that fight cheese.

[_-Malicious-Melodi-_]

1 minute ago, FrostDragoon said:

Except this isn't the case with nullifiers.

-If they are supposed to balance powers with gunplay, they shouldn't block weapons.

-I'm not advocating removal, but reworking them.

-When there are enough other support units out, they can't really be called a "threat" as much as they make nearly everything else basically invincible.

If you want to start that thread, I'd be happy to continue this discussion there. I'm just not inclined to have to constantly update it to keep up with how the conversation evolves.

Well i'm not gunna start a thread like that... i'm perfectly content with how nullifiers work. And they balance Powers and Gunplay, so they block powers and gunplay equally : p

 

1 minute ago, Lord_Azrael said:

You will find many suggestions made many times through multiple threads, if you look. And the cause of the problem is that they invalidate legitimate playstyles, abilities, and weapons, thus limiting player choice.

 

Yes. Forces meta. And you agree that meta should be removed from the game. And people say that nullifiers force meta. Sounds like a good point to me!

 

You literally just repeated one of the primary reasons. It forces meta, which you believe should be removed.

 

Got a source for this assumption? There sure seem to be a lot of people here that hate them...

 

But they do the opposite. They *enforce* the meta. There are certain ways to kill them, using certain gear or types of gear, that are good at killing them. Everything else gets punished severely. When the most common response to a complaint about them is to recite the meta "just bring a high RoF weapon and don't solo with squishy frames" that's not a sign of an anti-meta enemy. Anytime you have an enemy that invalidates a significant portion of the weapons, frames, and abilities, that's bad design.

Oh, BTW, you know what enemies I love? Bursas, and Hyenas. Also combas. And bombards. Ooh! Also manics! And manic bombards, love those guys. The Rathuum guys are great. And I miss the acolytes from shadow debt (BTW, they used to dispel your abilities like the stalker does). They were fun!

But I strongly dislike nullifiers. There are much better ways to make difficult enemies that fight cheese.

 

For every 1 person on the forums complaining about Nullifiers... there are 10 people playing the game and don't care. Thought that would be pretty obvious due to the lack of "dont nerf nullifies" posts. Im just trying to provide a counter argument so that it forces players who want changes to refine their points. Sticking with "Bad Design" and repeating that over and over again isnt going to get anywhere. The number of problems DE needs to fix is nuts, so if you happen to give them a REALLY good idea on how to rebalance nullifiers, maybe... just maybe they may take it into consideration because it makes their job easier than having to come up with something to satisfy everyone. 

A good example i have is in one of my threads, a person made a huge post about re-balancing the damage and stat scaling system. Now, i have no idea if DE will even take notice of it, but he gives dozens of very concise details that others can work off of.

Like i said before... Clear cut facts, details and ideas are a stronger argument.

[FrostDragoon]

They don't block gunplay equally in the big picture, because plenty of other things block just gunplay and not powers. It makes sense for nullifiers to be the opposite.

Quote

For every 1 person on the forums complaining about Nullifiers... there are 10 people playing the game and don't care. Thought that would be pretty obvious due to the lack of "dont nerf nullifies" posts.

This is not logical. Absence of evidence is not evidence--it's just the absence of it. You can't assume what people who aren't on the forum think. Using that same fallacy, I could equally state that the lack of "don't nerf nullifiers" is because everyone wants them to be nerfed.

[pikaseechu]

On 7/8/2016 at 10:34 AM, Tymerc said:

Speak for yourself. I enjoy Nullifiers because they counter mindless ability spam while also dealing out good damage. 

My biggest beef with them is usually how I have to drop my Sancti Tigris for a bullethose when I also need to worry about other threats in Corpus / Void missions, and how those bubbles aren't dropped instantly by shotguns / snipers. Other than that, DE's buff's should also place them as a heavy unit, and should rightfully also not spawn as frequently. They also shouldn't block every bullet, and they need to not have snipers. 

I do agree to some extent (I'm just super salty about this "bugdate") that they are doing their purpose. 

[_-Malicious-Melodi-_]

1 minute ago, FrostDragoon said:

They don't block gunplay equally in the big picture, because plenty of other things block just gunplay and not powers. It makes sense for nullifiers to be the opposite.

This is not logical. Absence of evidence is not evidence--it's just the absence of it. You can't assume what people who aren't on the forum think. Using that same fallacy, I could equally state that the lack of "don't nerf nullifiers" is because everyone wants them to be nerfed.

There are a hell of a lot more people playing the game than there are on the forums, i can tell you that much. And like i said... You want change, make a post, make it strong and full of details and get support. Just adding on to a post like the OP isn't going to get you anywhere, especially with how much salt and tears he shows. But i will say.... Out of ALL the things DE needs to fix... Nullifiers are probably going to end up pretty low on the list.... Scaling, Damage falloff, Scorpions, Sorties.... 90% of U19.... 

[FrostDragoon]

I'm sure this is veering off topic, but what's wrong with Scorpions, exactly?

[_-Malicious-Melodi-_]

1 minute ago, FrostDragoon said:

I'm sure this is veering off topic, but what's wrong with Scorpions, exactly?

The fact that they can shoot a grappling hook 180 degrees behind them through a wall at a target moving 100 mph and still hit with pinpoint accuracy.

And they came in at like update 3

Edited July 10, 2016 by PureIcarus