Really DE? we are talking about how we hate nullifiers and you just... BUFF THEM? REALLY?

[Skiddybike81273]

Nullies are not that bad its the spawn rate on them if they made them like boss unites where they only spawn very rearly they would be fine.

[-Apple-Pie-]

To all players, that think that Nullifiers are OP - i will prove you, that that is not true. Why Nullifier should affect anyone, but Frost? Now Frost players will contribute to the game at the same level as his teammates.

Now, my brothers, i will teach you, how to kill a Nullifier.

First of all, you must find one. Now you have several different options.

1. Melee frame. Close up with Nullifier, and start swinging melee weapon/power near the bubble. With each sucessful hit at the right distance, the bubble will decrease.

2. Glaive. The right built Glaive, throwing at the feet of Nullifier kills them instantly.

3. Ranged primary weapons. Consider bringing something very powerful(Latron) or very fast shooting(Braton), it kills the bubble very fast.

4. Ranged secondaries. Full auto pistols like Furis or Akstiletto obliterate bubble in seconds. Equipping Concealed Explosives on daggers do that work even faster.

5. Melee Rampage. Go inside the bubble, and show the Nullifier his intestines while hes still alive.

6. Shotgun Strength. Pick some high-damage slow ROF shotgun, like Tigris, Hek or the Redeemer, and finish Nullifier in one shot.

7. Tonkor Power. Just like the 6, but the explosion is killing more enemies, that are close to Nullifier.

8. Dedicated Nullifier Nullifier. Tell one player in the squad to make sure the Nullifiers are dead first. Let him/her concentrate on Nullifiers, before any other enemies. Very simple, very efficient.

 

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

1 hour ago, (PS4)dA_BLoK_iS_hOt said:

There seem to be a lack of individuals who consider everything that a nullifier brings to the table before they post. Some people say they present a challenge. Of course. Some people saying git gud or "Just copter into the bubble and kill the nullifier. Uh Duh. Of course that is what you are suppose to do. What happens when you are playing against Corpus faction high level, nullifiers are being spammed, bursas are in the bubble, ospreys are dropping their little orb that do insane damage at high level. Almost every Corpus enemy is designed to stagger you or knock you over right? Multiple bursas slamming the ground every second you are near it, how do you copter into that bubble and kill the nullifier with a melee weapon with a frame that has 65 armor? Or the Void, multiple bombards, gunners inside the bubble or multiple bubbles. At high level, it isn't smart for a player with low armor or a player who relies or its frame ability to copter into the bubble and kill the nully. Sure you may have a chance, but what happens when you have a few ancient healers sitting behind those nullies and bombards and gunners, boosting every enemies armor that is near it? Challenge? Maybe. Annoying?? Definitely. DE's version of a challenge is SPAM. I did a sortie once against multiple Ancient Eximuses. In that mission we all kept getting knocked over... Over and over and over again. That isn't a challenge, that is just annoying. How could anyone enjoy a mission where you keep getting knocked over every second. Same to be said with Nullifiers. They present some sort of challenge but when you couple them with multiple different enemy types and throw in nullifier spam with that along with that, it doesn't make it challenging, it makes it annoying.

 

For anyone saying they like these challenges that make no sense. Go into the simulacrum, pick any frame with 65 armor with whatever build. Enemy types are 10 nullifiers, 3 Ancient healers, 2 Corrupted heavy bombards, 2 Corrupted Heavy Gunners and any other 3 enemies of your choice. Enemy levels have to be level 135. You can only use melee This is your version of a challenge. Now try it. 

Present a challenge lol. Challenge is not a good thing in a vacuum. Just like particle effects, lens flare, sound notifications or controller vibration. All of those can be good or they can be broken. Challenge CAN be made into a good thing. Fact is though, dumb artificial challenge is objectively worse than zero challenge. Unless you are actually insane, if clinical psychiatry book I've reading recently is to be believed. Anyway... For example controls that stop working every other minute is in fact a challenge. It's also a fundamental flaw that needs removal. Same with nullifiers. 

That's the only enemy in the game that's actually unpleasant. Not hard. Bursas at lvl 100 are hard. And quite fun to fight and kill. Nullifiers are unpleasant. They feel buggy/broken. 

And BTW, digital extremes made Darkness 2. If you played it, you know they will only make it worse. Second half of this game is basically power nullification galore severely reducing enjoyment you're having. 

[(PSN)Kish_Lat]

 

 

That card is looking slick. What mission do I complete to get it?

[Azrael]

31 minutes ago, mobilehacker said:

To all players, that think that Nullifiers are OP - i will prove you, that that is not true. Why Nullifier should affect anyone, but Frost? Now Frost players will contribute to the game at the same level as his teammates.

Now, my brothers, i will teach you, how to kill a Nullifier.

First of all, you must find one. Now you have several different options.

1. Melee frame. Close up with Nullifier, and start swinging melee weapon/power near the bubble. With each sucessful hit at the right distance, the bubble will decrease.

2. Glaive. The right built Glaive, throwing at the feet of Nullifier kills them instantly.

3. Ranged primary weapons. Consider bringing something very powerful(Latron) or very fast shooting(Braton), it kills the bubble very fast.

4. Ranged secondaries. Full auto pistols like Furis or Akstiletto obliterate bubble in seconds. Equipping Concealed Explosives on daggers do that work even faster.

5. Melee Rampage. Go inside the bubble, and show the Nullifier his intestines while hes still alive.

6. Shotgun Strength. Pick some high-damage slow ROF shotgun, like Tigris, Hek or the Redeemer, and finish Nullifier in one shot.

7. Tonkor Power. Just like the 6, but the explosion is killing more enemies, that are close to Nullifier.

8. Dedicated Nullifier Nullifier. Tell one player in the squad to make sure the Nullifiers are dead first. Let him/her concentrate on Nullifiers, before any other enemies. Very simple, very efficient.

 

Oh, look. Another poster who hasn't noticed the countless people who've said that they can kill them, aren't challenged by them, but don't like the limitation to playstyles.

But let's consider your strategies. There are 8 of them! Wow!

Except that numbers 1, 5, and 6 can be written as "bring a tanky frame that doesn't rely on self buffs". Number 8 can be written as "don't play solo and bring a friend with a tanky frame that doesn't rely on self buffs. " numbers 3 and 4 can be written as "bring a high RoF weapon. " And number 7 doesn't work well at all, unless you go inside the bubble, in which case it's another "tanky frame with no self buffs" tip. So you're list is really just:

1 tanky frame that doesn't rely on self buffs.

2 glaive

3 high RoF weapon

Hey! What a coincidence! The same list we've all been repeating the entire time!

You see, we all know how to kill them. We don't need you to teach us. We just think they limit player choice. I like playing mag solo in the void. My only real option from this list is the glaive, which becomes unreliable when there are many high level nullifiers around along with bombards and gunners. And that's why I don't like them, because they invalidate an otherwise legitimate playstyle.

[Azrael]

36 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

Oh, look. Another poster who hasn't noticed the countless people who've said that they can kill them, aren't challenged by them, but don't like the limitation to playstyles.

But let's consider your strategies. There are 8 of them! Wow!

Except that numbers 1, 5, and 6 can be written as "bring a tanky frame that doesn't rely on self buffs". Number 8 can be written as "don't play solo and bring a friend with a tanky frame that doesn't rely on self buffs. " numbers 3 and 4 can be written as "bring a high RoF weapon. " And number 7 doesn't work well at all, unless you go inside the bubble, in which case it's another "tanky frame with no self buffs" tip. So you're list is really just:

1 tanky frame that doesn't rely on self buffs.

2 glaive

3 high RoF weapon

Hey! What a coincidence! The same list we've all been repeating the entire time!

You see, we all know how to kill them. We don't need you to teach us. We just think they limit player choice. I like playing mag solo in the void. My only real option from this list is the glaive, which becomes unreliable when there are many high level nullifiers around along with bombards and gunners. And that's why I don't like them, because they invalidate an otherwise legitimate playstyle.

*Edit: look, I'm not trying to be rude. I know you're trying to help. But it is *exhausting* when posters are *constantly* saying things like "I don't have trouble killing them, I don't know why you think they're hard" and completely ignoring the actual conversation. Nobody is saying they have trouble killing them. We're saying we don't like having our favorite playstyles and frames get invalidated by this meta-enforcing unit.

Sorry, I can't edit posts on mobile. Drives me crazy. Please pretend that this post is an edit to my previous one. Don't forget to tip your waitresses, and spay and neuter your dogs.

[chuckdm]

Ways to counter a nullifier:

• Synoid Simulor.  Just use it as usual.  Kills them just like everything else.
• Secura Penta (airburst near bubble, dead nullifier)
• Ogris (works better with the Nightwatch Napalm mod but will kill them without it too)
• Opticor if you want to use a hitscan AoE with rifle ammo instead (yeah, not TECHNICALY hitscan, but close enough)
• Sancti Castanas will actually stick to the bubble, dead nullifier
• <insert any other AoE weapon - except the Tonkor - in the entire game here because almost all of them will work>
• Melee them
• Any rapid fire rifle from Soma to Grakata to even a MK1-Braton

I am not saying they don't need a serious, massive nerf.  They totally do.

But I am saying I have 11 loadouts and ALL of them have a good, hard nullifier counter even though NONE of them were built that way, because it's actually very hard to make a full loadout that lacks one.  Nobody has to "git gud."  You just have to shoot something other than your 5-forma Tonkor or Dread at them.  Literally any AoE weapon except the Tonkor or any weapon except a Bow or Sniper will handle this, no problem, and if you are "gud" then it's not hard to pop them with bows and snipers, either.  Maybe with a Lanka, but that's your fault for using a Lanka.  Worst sniper in the game, hands down.  (Argue if you want.  A non-hitscan, single shot, medium damage, charge up gun.  It's an inferior version of even a normal Paris, if you mod the Paris well.  Crit?  Dread or Paris Prime, still better than stupid Lanka.)

And I've broken dozens of nullifier bubbles with my Vectis Prime, too.  Hint: it works a LOT better then you actually don't mod it for a 1-bullet magazine.  Primed Chamber is not worth the mod slot, guys.  Literally any elemental mod adds more damage.  Math, people.

All that said, Nullifiers need a single, simple change.  Punch-thru should punch through a nullifier shield.  That's it.  That's all that's needed to make them totally balanced.

[(XBOX)Ahkyoz]

They don't really bother me with out them the game would get boring

[grimdraken]

Would it though?  Don't you find a Comba a far more engaging unit to deal with?

 

Any way you look at it, this thread's pretty damning evidence against Nullifiers being in a good place just from it's sheer size and traffic.

At the time of this post, there's 20% more posts (100) more and 20% (that's 2000) more views than the SotR feedback thread, even though this thread begun an hour later.

Edited July 10, 2016 by grimdraken

[Yonekura]

I think the biggest complaint about them is they dispel buffs. Otherwise, running in and melee-ing the nullifiers would a be valid strategy.

[Azrael]

32 minutes ago, chuckdm said:

And I've broken dozens of nullifier bubbles with my Vectis Prime, too.  Hint: it works a LOT better then you actually don't mod it for a 1-bullet magazine.  Primed Chamber is not worth the mod slot, guys.  Literally any elemental mod adds more damage.  Math, people.

I don't have time to argue with you, but this statement made me laugh. It's depleted reload that mods for a single bullet mag. And primed chamber is bonus damage, which is multiplicative, as opposed to the elemental mods, which are additive. So primed chamber does more damage than elemental mods. Elementals are +90% of the base, primed chamber doubles ALL damage. Math, people.

[chuckdm]

4 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

I don't have time to argue with you, but this statement made me laugh. It's depleted reload that mods for a single bullet mag. And primed chamber is bonus damage, which is multiplicative, as opposed to the elemental mods, which are additive. So primed chamber does more damage than elemental mods. Elementals are +90% of the base, primed chamber doubles ALL damage. Math, people.

My bad.  I was thinking Charged Chamber.  Yes, true, Primed Chamber would be more raw damage, if you're one of the lucky few who have it.

I'm still not convinced that you wouldn't be better off with 2 shots and 2 more elemental mods (because also skipping depleted reload).  It'd certainly be a higher rate of fire for the sake of popping the bubble.

I should probably math that, shouldn't I? ;)

[grimdraken]

Wouldn't hurt.  There's no such thing as having an opinion when it comes to Math.  You're either right or wrong.

[chuckdm]

19 minutes ago, grimdraken said:

Wouldn't hurt.  There's no such thing as having an opinion when it comes to Math.  You're either right or wrong.

True enough.

So...let's think about this on a Vectis Prime.  I'm roughing this out in my head because I'm too lazy to calculate it.

About, what, 1k IPS damage per shot?  If we add 90% Toxin and 90% Electric, that's 2800 or so.  If we skip both and use Charged Chamber, we're at 1400.

Now, with the 2.8k base damage and no depleted reload, we're looking at, what?  1s per shot and 2s reload.  So, over 20 seconds in perfect conditions, that's about, what, 10 shots?  Except, no, because we have to re-scope 4 times.  Let's assume we can do all 4 re-scopes in 1s each.  So now we're down to about 8 shots.  That's 22000+ damage over 20 seconds, or around 1100 DPS.

Now let's figure with Changed Chamber and Depleted Reload.  At 1.4k base damage, with 0s per shot and 1s reload (it's actually a longer reload than that, but again, mentally doing this).  At first, this seems better because, even with half damage, we're spending a third as much time not firing.  Except we're not.  It still takes us about 1s, even if you're really, really good, to re-scope.  Now we're rescoping between every single shot, instead of every-other shot, so you're still looking at about 8 shots in the same 20 seconds, but doing half as much base damage.

Now let's consider the same, but with Primed Chamber.  Now we're talking 2k damage instead of 1.4k - which is still less than 2.8k.  Same rate of fire and reload as the second option above.  Same re-scoping after every single shot.  Now we're at 16,000 damage over 20 seconds, instead of 22,000, and yes, lower DPS.

All of this, again, is off the top of my head.  And it is also a build which both is incomplete (these numbers are basically only from Serration and the mods listed above, so 3 mods total.  With the other 5 mods, we can make up a LOT of the DPS gap here) and also which takes into account the time to re-scope and reacquire a target that almost nobody ever figures into the DPS calculations for snipers.

In the end, yes, there is CERTAINLY a build which makes primed chamber do more damage than pure elemental mods.

But it won't help you against nullifier bubbles like the 2-bullet magazine will, and it isn't much more damage anyway.  It's a tiny, incremental increase in exchange for turning a Penta into an Ogris, basically.  Since the OP's topic was about Nullifiers, I was just pointing out that, if you build for the meta (which, with the Vectis Prime, almost always is a Primed Chamber build) you'll be at a disadvantage against Nullifiers.  If you go with a, frankly, much simpler raw damage build and stick with the 2-bullet magazine, you'll have much less trouble with Nullifiers.  That was my point.

[Averath]

3 hours ago, mobilehacker said:

To all players, that think that Nullifiers are OP - i will prove you, that that is not true. Why Nullifier should affect anyone, but Frost? Now Frost players will contribute to the game at the same level as his teammates.

Now, my brothers, i will teach you, how to kill a Nullifier.

First of all, you must find one. Now you have several different options.

1. Melee frame. Close up with Nullifier, and start swinging melee weapon/power near the bubble. With each sucessful hit at the right distance, the bubble will decrease.

2. Glaive. The right built Glaive, throwing at the feet of Nullifier kills them instantly.

3. Ranged primary weapons. Consider bringing something very powerful(Latron) or very fast shooting(Braton), it kills the bubble very fast.

4. Ranged secondaries. Full auto pistols like Furis or Akstiletto obliterate bubble in seconds. Equipping Concealed Explosives on daggers do that work even faster.

5. Melee Rampage. Go inside the bubble, and show the Nullifier his intestines while hes still alive.

6. Shotgun Strength. Pick some high-damage slow ROF shotgun, like Tigris, Hek or the Redeemer, and finish Nullifier in one shot.

7. Tonkor Power. Just like the 6, but the explosion is killing more enemies, that are close to Nullifier.

8. Dedicated Nullifier Nullifier. Tell one player in the squad to make sure the Nullifiers are dead first. Let him/her concentrate on Nullifiers, before any other enemies. Very simple, very efficient.

 

You're making the classic mistake. When someone says "Nullifiers are OP" they do not mean that they are hard to kill. I can kill a Nullifier in 3 seconds or less. They are absolutely no threat to me. They are, however, the most annoying and frustrating enemy in the entire game, alongside Combas/Scrambus. They fill this specific niche of giving all players, regardless of skill level, a massive middle finger. This is unhealthy for gameplay and player retention. The only reason most players don't outright quit Warframe is because DE has absolutely no competition. There are no alternatives.

[kevch456]

6 minutes ago, Averath said:

-snip-

Totally agree with you. Nullifiers are extremely annoying. They kill players in an indirect way, especially in the high level fissue type mission. When the nullifiers spawn right on top of you, alongside with some heavy units like bombard/heavy, or even an ancient, can stun-lock you and you can't use abilities to CC them, and BAM! *press revive*

It is just painful to play solo now because of them.

Also. some people just refused to admit the fact that nullifiers are limiting player's weapon choices, especially on high level content.

Don't teach me how to prepare my toolkit for just one unit in a game. Oh, and for you reference, I strictly follow the golden rule (at least for me) of "one fully-automatic weapon, one high power one-shot type weapon".

Dang, I love my Braton Prime, but it just doesn't feel right when I bring it to high level corpus mission mostly because it can deal with the bubble.

[Wandering_Cyberdragoness]

Shameless plugging is shameless.

[Averath]

22 minutes ago, Wandering_Cyberdragoness said:

Shameless plugging is shameless.

Your ideas are interesting. Unfortunately there are two major problems.

#1. Combas are NOT fine. They are the same as Nullifiers, except they give absolutely ZERO warning. Buff purging should simply not be a thing in the game at all. Silence is fine. Reducing effectiveness is fine. Simply removing every buff on your warframe is not. These unit's abilities have no counters. Nullifiers are bullS#&amp;&#036;, but at least you can avoid going inside the bubble. A Comba will just come from around the corner with zero warning and purge everything off of you.

#2. This is DE. They're more likely to make a Nullifier's bubble destroy your warframe on contact, requiring you to build a new one in the Foundry. If you're shot by their weapon, it'll uninstall Warframe and install a new program that you cannot remove that requires you to buy a new computer to reinstall the game.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Averath
Clarification

[(PSN)aiptekfanboy]

22 hours ago, PureIcarus said:

Well i'm not gunna start a thread like that... i'm perfectly content with how nullifiers work. And they balance Powers and Gunplay, so they block powers and gunplay equally : p

 

 

For every 1 person on the forums complaining about Nullifiers... there are 10 people playing the game and don't care. Thought that would be pretty obvious due to the lack of "dont nerf nullifies" posts. Im just trying to provide a counter argument so that it forces players who want changes to refine their points. Sticking with "Bad Design" and repeating that over and over again isnt going to get anywhere. The number of problems DE needs to fix is nuts, so if you happen to give them a REALLY good idea on how to rebalance nullifiers, maybe... just maybe they may take it into consideration because it makes their job easier than having to come up with something to satisfy everyone. 

A good example i have is in one of my threads, a person made a huge post about re-balancing the damage and stat scaling system. Now, i have no idea if DE will even take notice of it, but he gives dozens of very concise details that others can work off of.

Like i said before... Clear cut facts, details and ideas are a stronger argument.

^^For every 1 person on the forums complaining about Nullifiers... there are 10 people playing the game and don't care. ^^

Got a source for that? cause my source says if a majority of folks dislike something then it will be reflected in lack of sales.

A majority did not like the edsel, crystal pepsi, new coke, etc.

I can tell you this that if this update hits consoles in its presently broken state its getting a delete from my clan and a move over to overwatch.

And why? is it my job to fix DEs game?

When something breaks I call the insurance and get a new vehicle and no way, no how do I get a corporate jet over to the factory to advise the engineers on vehicle design.....lol!

[Vastarov]

On 9/7/2016 at 5:50 PM, BlackCoMerc said:

-snip- Unlike you, however, we don't find this enemy either fun or engaging.

Then it's a matter of taste.
Should we eliminate or drastically change the Nullifiers because you don't like them?
Should you be pushing your own taste onto the whole community?

That's preposterous. It happens so that the vast majority of players have no problem whatsoever with the nullifiers. And until the voices against these enemies raise up to a big percentage of the playerbase (let's say more than 3/4), the change is not gonna happen.

[FrostDragoon]

30 minutes ago, (PS4)aiptekfanboy said:

^^For every 1 person on the forums complaining about Nullifiers... there are 10 people playing the game and don't care. ^^

Got a source for that? cause my source says if a majority of folks dislike something then it will be reflected in lack of sales.

A majority did not like the edsel, crystal pepsi, new coke, etc.

I can tell you this that if this update hits consoles in its presently broken state its getting a delete from my clan and a move over to overwatch.

And why? is it my job to fix DEs game?

When something breaks I call the insurance and get a new vehicle and no way, no how do I get a corporate jet over to the factory to advise the engineers on vehicle design.....lol!

Forums are not analagous to physically visiting the company. It's essentially just an expedited mail service. People used to do that frequently, btw. They used to send letters to companies to provide feedback about their products. That's all this is.

[FrostDragoon]

16 minutes ago, Vastarov said:

Then it's a matter of taste.
Should we eliminate or drastically change the Nullifiers because you don't like them?
Should you be pushing your own taste onto the whole community?

That's preposterous. It happens so that the vast majority of players have no problem whatsoever with the nullifiers. And until the voices against these enemies raise up to a big percentage of the playerbase (let's say more than 3/4), the change is not gonna happen.

*Citation Needed

You can't speak for people who are not here. In fact, most of the time you can't even speak for people who are here. You can only speak for yourself--the very point you were trying to use against him.

[Vastarov]

2 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

You can't speak for people who are not here. In fact, most of the time you can't even speak for people who are here. You can only speak for yourself--the very point you were trying to use against him.

Fair. Also partially wrong, but still fair.

My mistake was the input of numbers - 'cause even if he/she were to represent the whole community and I were the only player supporting the continuation of the Nullifiers, we would still be just two players half-arguing on a forum.
If the hate for the Nullifiers is real, I want to see numbers. A poll, maybe - but to have even the slightest impact it needs 500k signatures, bound to a person and not an email or account since anyone is capable of forging multiple personas to rank up votes.

[FrostDragoon]

It doesn't need anything of the sort. It only needs DE to see it as a problem. All we can do is raise our points and give them something to think about. The decision is theirs.

[Kialandi]

I think that DE stopped listening to players a year and half ago. When they announced the "Year of Quality".

We didn't get much of what we asked for but got stuff like this instead.