Jump to content
Jade Shadows: Share Bug Reports and Feedback Here! ×

Really DE? we are talking about how we hate nullifiers and you just... BUFF THEM? REALLY?

Kaiser_Suoh

By Kaiser_Suoh,
in General

 Share

Recommended Posts

DiabolusUrsus

DiabolusUrsus

Posted
Posted
18 hours ago, BulletsforTeeth said:

Not really, they could simply block, specifically, AOE powers or negate them without cancelling. Or at least allow other methods of killing them not related to powers. Like, say snipers, or slower weapons. Something skill based to more effectively dispatch them.

Yeah, I don't know how much I would support a simple equipment check like that. I don't really agree that you could call "bring a sniper" a skill-based response to nullifiers, either. I prefer the goal of removing cheap enemies/mechanics from the game to replacing one cheap mechanic with another for the sake of "diversity."

It's definitely possible for the player to feel powerful without being overpowered, and that would be infinitely healthier for gameplay as a whole.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Xzorn

Xzorn

Posted
Posted
19 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

If you guys want Nullifiers to go away or be toned down - not that I disagree, mind you - you have to be willing to sacrifice some of your godly power. No more 40+m AOE abilities that prevent enemies from fighting back that you can spam indefinitely. No more weapons that dish out 25k+ damage per second.

If that's the power at your disposal, how else do you expect things to be able to fight back? 

Our demand for "challenge" that isn't just a "bullet sponge" combined with our infantile refusal to accept the tyranny of "nerfs" is precisely what landed us with enemies like Nullifiers. Until we don't have the option of pressing an "I win" button with reckless abandon, and until enemies stand a chance of lasting more than a second or two on-screen, we will not be given the option of facing thoughtful and legitimately interesting enemies.

It's that simple. 

I always thought the solution was rather simple.

People rely on AoE CC because enemy damage scales to a cheesey rate. If they caped this damage and continue to ramp enemy AI, give then addition abilities, cause global map effects, ect to ramp difficulty instead. Then they would have plenty reason to nerf CC to a reasonable level and because enemies don't one shot even frames like Chroma, we'd have reason to fill Tank and Healer rolls in the game.

Our Damage output is simply a byproduct of power creep, they're never going to get rid of it. We don't need to have our damage reduced, we simply need access to enemies that start at higher levels and can take more abuse. Ability based damage is a whole other subject. Should it scale? Should it not? But I think for the most part the game would be in better place either way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
BlackCoMerc

BlackCoMerc

Posted
Posted
13 hours ago, Sigmas71 said:

<SNIP>

This is a beautiful game with enormous potential for freedom and tailored gameplay for EVERYONE. But it still feels like half the game was designed to hamper the mechanics that make it unique 

This.

This right here defines the problem perfectly, in a concise manner that lays out everything wrong with this game right now. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
DiabolusUrsus

DiabolusUrsus

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Xzorn said:

I always thought the solution was rather simple.

People rely on AoE CC because enemy damage scales to a cheesey rate. If they caped this damage and continue to ramp enemy AI, give then addition abilities, cause global map effects, ect to ramp difficulty instead. Then they would have plenty reason to nerf CC to a reasonable level and because enemies don't one shot even frames like Chroma, we'd have reason to fill Tank and Healer rolls in the game.

Our Damage output is simply a byproduct of power creep, they're never going to get rid of it. We don't need to have our damage reduced, we simply need access to enemies that start at higher levels and can take more abuse. Ability based damage is a whole other subject. Should it scale? Should it not? But I think for the most part the game would be in better place either way.

The community just needs to swallow the pill that it should have a while ago and accept that they shouldn't expect content to be balanced at levels where enemies do that much damage. Warframe power creep has been accelerated by the fact that people run out of things to do except butt heads with high-level mobs, and then they start assuming they have the right to access gear that lets them fight those mobs on even footing.

Instead of working around the infinite scaling of CC and trying to make everything else scale better, I think they should just put a scaling cap onto CC powers... For example, define a "standard" max level for balanced content, and apply a debuff to CC effects as level continues to scale after that. That will create an "effective cap" where it could technically still keep going but players just die off because they run out of cheese to keep fighting.

Then just balance the rest of the content around being viable at max level and you're done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Xzorn

Xzorn

Posted
Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

The community just needs to swallow the pill that it should have a while ago and accept that they shouldn't expect content to be balanced at levels where enemies do that much damage. Warframe power creep has been accelerated by the fact that people run out of things to do except butt heads with high-level mobs, and then they start assuming they have the right to access gear that lets them fight those mobs on even footing.

Instead of working around the infinite scaling of CC and trying to make everything else scale better, I think they should just put a scaling cap onto CC powers... For example, define a "standard" max level for balanced content, and apply a debuff to CC effects as level continues to scale after that. That will create an "effective cap" where it could technically still keep going but players just die off because they run out of cheese to keep fighting.

Then just balance the rest of the content around being viable at max level and you're done.

You don't have a scaling enemy system then set a max level.

You can't prevent power creep in a game where you don't loose items, so eventually in your system people would be one shoting enemies well beyond your "cap" and mocking the entire system as I currently mock Fissures. I don't need CC, I do so much damage nothing stays alive long enough to shoot back. That's your system in one year. Just look how people solo old WoW bosses. You need a scaling system or the content will rot as players inevitably grow stronger.

The damage system is just flawed because they didn't think people would go as high as they did. It has nothing to do with preventing players from doing it. Enemies one shot at high levels because they simply didn't expect that situation not because they didn't want it. This is supported by them saying in an old Dev Stream that  they didn't expect players to solo lvl 100 enemies (now we have Sorties) and more recent ones where they acknowledge players enjoy endurance runs and plan to keep it an option.

Your system might as well put a timer on the mission with no regard to player comp, skill or knowledge.

Edited by Xzorn
Link to comment
Share on other sites
grimdraken

grimdraken

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, catastrophy said:

So what's the alternative? More bursa instead? No, thanks - I'll stick with nuliifiers.

Utterly classic strawman.  "Nullifiers are good because Bursas are crap."

 

Edited by grimdraken
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheLexiConArtist

TheLexiConArtist

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Instead of working around the infinite scaling of CC and trying to make everything else scale better, I think they should just put a scaling cap onto CC powers... For example, define a "standard" max level for balanced content, and apply a debuff to CC effects as level continues to scale after that. That will create an "effective cap" where it could technically still keep going but players just die off because they run out of cheese to keep fighting.

Then just balance the rest of the content around being viable at max level and you're done.

But then you're not affecting all Warframe choices equally. Just look at the boss diminishing returns that are in place now: A timed debuff ability that most iconically says "kill this one target above all else", Mag's Bullet Attractor Magnetise, is essentially useless - lasting a paltry four seconds after a couple of casts even with ultra-maxed duration.

On the other hand, warframes that work on untimed abilities, damage abilities and personal effects, say Chroma as one of the bigger players on the field for gaining immense EHP and damage output at once, is 100% unaffected.

Isn't that unfair? More importantly, is it going to result in specific subsets of 'frames being useless' and 'frames that function' at the upper echelons of achievable enemy scaling? I posit that the answer to these questions is yes, and why the approach can't be blanket in either way. The effects being split into a variety of units means that no individual enemy is the 'no zone' to every opposition, and promotes dynamic gameplay in players choosing enemies to take out based on what their threats actually pose to the skillsets in play.

 

1 minute ago, grimdraken said:

Utterly classic strawman.  "Nullifiers are good because Bursas are crap."

To that strawman I present a counterpoint: Nullifiers are crap because Bursas are fine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheLexiConArtist

TheLexiConArtist

Posted
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, catastrophy said:

Ugh, a bursa lover. Let's talk again when the Nullies get replaced by an army of bursas. (It'll never happen.)

Proportion of Warframes with abilities capable of disabling a Bursa: >=80%

Proportion of Warframes with abilities capable of disabling a Nullifier: 0%

Spawn rate of Bursas: Intermittent or predictable, often announced. No more than 3 at a time in non-extreme cases.

Spawn rate of Nullifiers: ALL OF THEM FOREVER.

 

Other than the Isolator's extended knockdown and the fact this selfsame Nullifier buff also applied to their bubbles, yeah, I'd say they're fine in comparison.

Edited by EDYinnit
Link to comment
Share on other sites
catastrophy

catastrophy

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

Proportion of Warframes with abilities capable of disabling a Bursa: >=80%

Proportion of Warframes with abilities capable of disabling a Nullifier: 0%

Spawn rate of Bursas: Intermittent or predictable, often announced. No more than 3 at a time in non-extreme cases.

Spawn rate of Nullifiers: ALL OF THEM FOREVER.

 

Other than the Isolator's extended knockdown and the fact this selfsame Nullifier buff also applied to their bubbles, yeah, I'd say they're fine in comparison.

Proportion of Warframes with abilities capable of disabling a Nullifier: 100%

Just use melee and mobility.

 

"Spawn rate of Nullifiers: ALL OF THEM FOREVER."

Ye, they should spawn in sensible amounts. Not all over the place.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Honestly, how can people love the bursa, when one of them shoots nullie bubbles, lol?

Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheLexiConArtist

TheLexiConArtist

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, catastrophy said:

Proportion of Warframes with abilities capable of disabling a Nullifier: 100%

Just use melee and mobility.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Honestly, how can people love the bursa, when one of them shoots nullie bubbles, lol?

Melee and mobility are not "Warframe Abilities". Playing that card also increases the proportion of Warframes that can disable a Bursa also to 100%, as it turns out you can mobility behind them, jump shock waves and beat them to death, how novel.

---

  • When that nullification bubble is instantaneously destructible.
  • When that nullification bubble is not protective of the source unit at all times.
  • When that nullification bubble doesn't stop bullets.
  • When that nullification bubble starts tiny (before even a tiny nulli bubble caused abrupt and complete ability deletion)
  • When that nullification bubble is only occasionally even used in the first place and can be pre-empted by disabling the source unit.
  • When the source unit of the nullification bubble is uncommon and typically announced in advance so as to be a priority target.

Yeah, can't imagine why. :v

Link to comment
Share on other sites
TaylorsContraction

TaylorsContraction

Posted
Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, catastrophy said:

Proportion of Warframes with abilities capable of disabling a Nullifier: 100%

Just use melee and mobility.

 

"Spawn rate of Nullifiers: ALL OF THEM FOREVER."

Ye, they should spawn in sensible amounts. Not all over the place.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Honestly, how can people love the bursa, when one of them shoots nullie bubbles, lol?

I can dodge the nully bubble, roll if it hits me, shoot the nade to get rid of it. It doesn't stop bullets and any frame can counter play a bursa, using any weapon I want. The same cannot be said for nullifiers that hurt frames that rely on buffs and players who prefer low rof weapons or explosives.

Edited by TaylorsContraction
Typos
Link to comment
Share on other sites
catastrophy

catastrophy

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Melee and mobility are not "Warframe Abilities". Playing that card also increases the proportion of Warframes that can disable a Bursa also to 100%, as it turns out you can mobility behind them, jump shock waves and beat them to death, how novel.

---

  • When that nullification bubble is instantaneously destructible.
  • When that nullification bubble is not protective of the source unit at all times.
  • When that nullification bubble doesn't stop bullets.
  • When that nullification bubble starts tiny (before even a tiny nulli bubble caused abrupt and complete ability deletion)
  • When that nullification bubble is only occasionally even used in the first place and can be pre-empted by disabling the source unit.
  • When the source unit of the nullification bubble is uncommon and typically announced in advance so as to be a priority target.

Yeah, can't imagine why. :v

Bursas are harder to dispatch with melee and mobility than Nullies. It's also deeply satisfying to dive into a nullie bubble and hear the wails of dismay and fear when the blade slicesthe enemy. That's compelling and immersive gameplay.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheLexiConArtist

TheLexiConArtist

Posted
Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, catastrophy said:

Bursas are harder to dispatch with melee and mobility than Nullies.

So is an osprey.

8 minutes ago, catastrophy said:

It's also deeply satisfying to dive into a nullie bubble and hear the wails of dismay and fear when the blade slicesthe enemy. That's compelling and immersive gameplay.

"If nullifier then no. Kill nullifier, then yes."

so compelling

much immersion

wow

Dank memes aside, there's nothing different between slicing a Nullifier and slicing your common mook footsoldier, except you're obliged to do it in order to turn off the 'no button' with one, and you have 100 other options to accomplish the other. Which is actually more compelling? A chore (which you also lose buffs in the process of completing), or options of different approaches?

A Prod Crewman literally offers more compelling gameplay than a Nullifier.

Edited by EDYinnit
Link to comment
Share on other sites
catastrophy

catastrophy

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

So is an osprey.

"If nullifier then no. Kill nullifier, then yes."

so compelling

much immersive

wow

Dank memes aside, there's nothing different between slicing a Nullifier and slicing your common mook footsoldier, except you're obliged to do it in order to turn off the 'no button' with one, and you have 100 other options to accomplish the other. Which is actually more compelling? A chore (which you also lose buffs in the process of completing), or options of different approaches?

A Prod Crewman literally offers more compelling gameplay than a Nullifier.

It's called "target priorization" and "tactical approach"..

Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheLexiConArtist

TheLexiConArtist

Posted
Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, catastrophy said:

It's called "target priorization" and "tactical approach"..

Actually, it's called 'binary gameplay'.

"If nullifier, kill nullifier" isn't prioritisation. "There's something here that stops me casting (comba), but something over there (shockwave moa/bursa) is going to stop me from moving away from the thing that stops me casting and I don't need to cast right now, so I kill or disable the second entity to enable me to better deal with the first" is prioritisation. And tactics.

Edited by EDYinnit
Link to comment
Share on other sites
IceColdHawk

IceColdHawk

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, catastrophy said:

Bursas are harder to dispatch with melee and mobility than Nullies.

Forced to disagree. I can shoot any cheap cc at them and those bursas look very old while nullies on the other hand...

1 hour ago, catastrophy said:

It's also deeply satisfying to dive into a nullie bubble and hear the wails of dismay and fear when the blade slicesthe enemy.

You mean experience the dismay and fear from those supra heroes roasting you while you suicide into the bubble?

1 hour ago, catastrophy said:

That's compelling and immersive gameplay.

Flanking a rampaging bursa and giving him a sniper bullet in it's back and hearing the "destructed machine" sound, THAT is immersive. Knowing you have defeated a possible threat is compelling. Just mindlessly spamming your high RoF bullets into him or slidekilling him is far away from everything that could be considered immersive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share
Go to topic listing
×
×
  • Create New...