Really DE? we are talking about how we hate nullifiers and you just... BUFF THEM? REALLY?

[catastrophy]

22 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

Actually, it's called 'binary gameplay'.

"If nullifier, kill nullifier" isn't prioritisation. "There's something here that stops me casting (comba), but something over there (shockwave moa/bursa) is going to stop me from moving away from the thing that stops me casting and I don't need to cast right now, so I kill or disable the second entity to enable me to better deal with the first" is prioritisation. And tactics.

Different tactical situations afford different approaches. Your example is just a bit deeper in complexity.

[catastrophy]

3 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

 

You mean experience the dismay and fear from those supra heroes roasting you while you suicide into the bubble?

 

Do I hear your complain about a tactical dilemma? Develop a solution and overcome it with your set of tools. It's called "challenge".

[IceColdHawk]

Just now, catastrophy said:

Do I hear your complain about a tactical dilemma? Develop a solution and overcome it with your set of tools. It's called "challenge".

Said the guy who has problems with bursas? Seriously?

But no, that's not the point. My naramon banshee does just fine even against lvl 200+ nullifiers. But i see you're incapable of seeing how nullifiers are not a "challenge" but rather just a stupidly designed, fun- and diversity-taking unit. So it's not really worth much discussing with you.

[markus230]

Nulifiers are the only enemies that make you back off and think a little. Sniper rifles suck against Nullifiers? Then bring high RoF secondary with you and simply switch weapons. You have enough armor and life strike, just slide inside the bubble and chop Nullifier first.

Im use mainly Volt, and I have no problems wtih those enemies, I just kill them as soon as they show up to avoid bubble stacking. They are not that much of a problem if you think a little.

If Nullies will be nerfed again whats going to stop us from cheesing? Nothing

[TheLexiConArtist]

10 minutes ago, catastrophy said:

Do I hear your complain about a tactical dilemma? Develop a solution and overcome it with your set of tools. It's called "challenge".

You have:

• A non-innately-tanky warframe reliant on buffs to survive direct fire.
• A bow in your primary weapon slot.
• A slow and/or utility weapon in your secondary weapon slot.
• For argument's sake, an objective entity you need to protect (e.g. Mob Def terminal)

There are:

• Nullifier(s) with active bubbles.
• Techs in those bubbles.
• Sapper bombs under those bubbles.

You cannot:

• Disable the units to safely handle the problem
  • Nullifier bubbles.
• Shoot down the Nullifier bubbles
  • Techs and the Nullifier(s) itself(themselves) will kill you if you take time to deal with the problem.
  • Your weapons do not work correctly on Nullifier bubbles due to bugs / capped shrinking.
• Slide in and melee the Nullifier(s)
  • You will lose your buffs
  • You will die to tech fire / melee / Sapper bombs
• Disengage from the fight until units are in a more manageable situation
  • The objective entity will be destroyed in the meanwhile.

 

Go.

Edited July 27, 2016 by EDYinnit

[Azrael]

1 minute ago, catastrophy said:

Different tactical situations afford different approaches. Your example is just a bit deeper in complexity.

Okay then, we want more tactical complexity than nullies allow. Put it however you like, bursas are more interesting and varied than nullies, and don't use cheap game-breaking bubbles. Nullies break many fun game mechanics and strategies, and need to be changed. 

 

1 minute ago, catastrophy said:

Do I hear your complain about a tactical dilemma? Develop a solution and overcome it with your set of tools. It's called "challenge".

How many people do you see in this thread saying that nullies are a challenge? If nullies are the model for challenge in warframe then we need to relearn what challenge is. Maybe the devs should spend some time playing "doom"...

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

Or infamous....

[IceColdHawk]

3 minutes ago, markus230 said:

Nulifiers are the only enemies that make you back off and think a little.

Okay.

On 20.7.2016 at 11:38 AM, IceColdHawk said:

*goes to play creative vauban for fissure mission*

Player 1: "Oh yeah, guys? Lemme plant some teslas here first. And maybe a vortex over there! It's a TRAP!"

*nullifier spawns and deletes everything in a blink of an eye*

P1: "Mhhhhhm, FUUUUUUUN......."

P2: "Bruh, stop crying you cheesy noob and git gud."

P3: "Told ya it's not gonna work. Let me do this!"

*slides with orthos prime/lesion everything away*

P3: "Ez pz lemon sqez."

P2: "I still love nullifiers! They add challenge and fun and make us think and add creative gaming tactics!11"

*P4 & P1 putting P2 on ignore*

The end.

3 minutes ago, markus230 said:

If Nullies will be nerfed again whats going to stop us from cheesing? Nothing

What is stopping us from ignoring corpus missions and cheesing grineer and infested? Just because some abilities may seem overpowered, doesn't mean they have to create a unit that makes all abilities useless and frames that rely on abilities helpless...

[markus230]

4 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

What is stopping us from ignoring corpus missions and cheesing grineer and infested?

Loot. You can't get prime parts without dealing with Nullies

Vauban works well against infestation, he doesn't work good against corpus and corrupted. So?

Edited July 27, 2016 by markus230

[IceColdHawk]

Just now, markus230 said:

Loot. You can't get prime parts without dealing with Nullies

1. Trading Chat.

2. Prime Access.

Right, fissure missions like to spawn a nullifier on top of you to disable all your stuff. Cool.

Is it fun? No.

Is it a challenge? No. For reference, see my quote on which i showed a real scenario.

Can we finally start talking on a logical level please?

[catastrophy]

5 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

You have:

• A non-innately-tanky warframe reliant on buffs to survive direct fire.
• A bow in your primary weapon slot.
• A slow and/or utility weapon in your secondary weapon slot.
• For argument's sake, an objective entity you need to protect (e.g. Mob Def terminal)

There are:

• Nullifier(s) with active bubbles.
• Techs in those bubbles.
• Sapper bombs under those bubbles.

You cannot:

• Disable the units to safely handle the problem
  • Nullifier bubbles.
• Shoot down the Nullifier bubbles
  • Techs and the Nullifier(s) itself(themselves) will kill you if you take time to deal with the problem.
  • Your weapons do not work correctly on Nullifier bubbles due to bugs / capped shrinking.
• Slide in and melee the Nullifier(s)
  • You will lose your buffs
  • You will die to tech fire / melee / Sapper bombs
• Disengage from the fight until units are in a more manageable situation
  • The objective entity will be destroyed in the meanwhile.

 

Go.

I'd say I brought the wrong tools for the job. Especially the bow. And if I know I have to defend I pick a warframe capable of doing so. I can Limbo decoy you through if you like.

Stalker is immune to warframe powers, too. I never hear as many complaints about that.

[markus230]

2 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

1. Trading Chat.

2. Prime Access.

Right, fissure missions like to spawn a nullifier on top of you to disable all your stuff. Cool.

Is it fun? No.

Is it a challenge? No. For reference, see my quote on which i showed a real scenario.

Can we finally start talking on a logical level please?

1. You need to spend money

2. You need to spend even more money

Is it fun? For, me yes, so speak for yourself.

Is it a challenge? Yes. Your quote isn't a real scenario, noone uses Vauban agaist cropus, just like noone uses Frost on exterminations. Not every warframe works good against everything, deal with it, you have 29 warframes to choose from.

"You don't agree with me therefore your are illogical"

Edited July 27, 2016 by markus230

[IceColdHawk]

1 minute ago, markus230 said:

1. You need to spend money

No. I got plat for this. Never rly needed to buy plat.

1 minute ago, markus230 said:

2. You need to spend even more money

That is certainly true.

1 minute ago, markus230 said:

Is it a challenge? Yes. Your quote isn't a real scenario

Yes it is. I think i should know better for what i experienced and what not, don't you think? Nobody brings vauban to corpus missions? It was a fissure mission. Pre-Hotfix 13 even. And the only way to survive this boredom is to pick something else than your usual meta frames. Talking about meta, lol, was there actually any meta frame for fissure missions not counting the farmer frames for traces? Markus, please.

3 minutes ago, markus230 said:

Is it fun? For, me yes, so speak for yourself.

Are you also jumping off your chair out of enjoyment every time you see a nullifier? How can having abilities, snipers, shotguns, bows useless be FUN? I think you might find even more enjoyment in other generic shooters where spamming high RoF weapons can also be extremely effective.

[Azrael]

7 minutes ago, catastrophy said:

I'd say I brought the wrong tools for the job. Especially the bow. And if I know I have to defend I pick a warframe capable of doing so. I can Limbo decoy you through if you like.

Stalker is immune to warframe powers, too. I never hear as many complaints about that.

Then you agree that nullies restrict viable gameplay options. What's wrong with using bows? I like bows. 

And you're correct, we aren't complaining about the stalker. That is a point in our favor, not against us. The stalker is cheaper and more challenging, but we don't complain because he doesn't invalidate legit gameplay options. His spawns are rare, and announced. He's basically a miniboss. He's not a core part of corpus, corrupted, and fissure missions. I have no problem with the stalker and I enjoy bursas. But the nullifier kills fun frames, weapons,  and tactics, which you admitted when you said:

12 minutes ago, catastrophy said:

I'd say I brought the wrong tools for the job. Especially the bow.

 

[heskaroid]

Still wondering why there were no replies from DE here, hm...

Edited July 27, 2016 by heskaroid

[markus230]

Just now, IceColdHawk said:

Yes it is. I think i should know better for what i experienced and what not, don't you think? Nobody brings vauban to corpus missions? It was a fissure mission. Pre-Hotfix 13 even. And the only way to survive this boredom is to pick something else than your usual meta frames. Talking about meta, lol, was there actually any meta frame for fissure missions not counting the farmer frames for traces? Markus, please.

Are you also jumping off your chair out of enjoyment every time you see a nullifier? How can having abilities, snipers, shotguns, bows useless be FUN? I think you might find even more enjoyment in other generic shooters where spamming high RoF weapons can also be extremely effective.

If you tried it, then its only your fault. And whats the point with bringing up pre-hotfix 13 fissures? They don't exist anymore. And that doesn't change the fact that bringing Vauban there and expecting him to be effective is irrational.

Are you also having a heart attack everytime you see Nullifier? If not then its not a problem. See? Exaggeration isn't a good argument. And again, if you brought sniper/bow/shotgun, you still have secondary slot, take Furis/Azima/Vipers, anything that has high RoF, problem solved. I use Latron Prime a lot, and when I see Nulifier I just switch to Azima and then back to Latron, its not that hard

[felixsylvaris]

• Nullifiers buble need to be penetrable by punchtrough
• All snipers in scope mode should have inate punchtrough enought to double penetrate nullifiers buble
• Strata Relay must be rebuild.

Edited July 27, 2016 by felixsylvaris

[TheLexiConArtist]

20 minutes ago, catastrophy said:

I'd say I brought the wrong tools for the job. Especially the bow. And if I know I have to defend I pick a warframe capable of doing so. I can Limbo decoy you through if you like.

3 minutes ago, markus230 said:

And again, if you brought sniper/bow/shotgun, you still have secondary slot, take Furis/Azima/Vipers, anything that has high RoF, problem solved. I use Latron Prime a lot, and when I see Nulifier I just switch to Azima and then back to Latron, its not that hard

I have a primary shotgun / so I brought a Lex Prime or Vaykor Marelok for range

I have a primary bow or sniper / so I brought a pocket shotgun for close quarters

 

Perfectly sound tactical decisions that cover potential combat scenarios... except the Nullifier specifically.

20 minutes ago, catastrophy said:

Stalker is immune to warframe powers, too. I never hear as many complaints about that.

Stalker is not immune to all Warframe powers! He can dispel powers and shrug off crowd control powers (suitable to his Mirrored Player Antagonist qualities) but he still takes a Fireball to the face and suffers damage from it.

He's also not immune to bullets... Except the Shadow Stalker, whose resistance buildups and regenerating shield can stalemate a player if they don't come prepared every mission for his loadout demands; funnily enough players did complain plenty about that one.

Edited July 27, 2016 by EDYinnit

[markus230]

Just now, EDYinnit said:

I have a primary shotgun / so I brought a Lex Prime or Vaykor Marelok for range

I have a primary bow or sniper / so I brought a pocket shotgun for close quarters

 

Perfectly sound tactical decisions that cover potential combat scenarios... except the Nullifier specifically.

You know that you are going to deal with nullies, its your choice to pick uneffective weapons. Nullies pose the biggest threat on defense missions anyway, you don't need close quarters weapon there

Edited July 27, 2016 by markus230

[Latiac]

Nullifiers are the ultimate cheesy enemy that is the walking definition of 'No fun allowed'

 

I would be happy to see them go, I really would - Maybe have them unique to certain tilesets at the VERY least.

[Flirk2]

"Nullifier is a challenge that you need to overcome." They say.

Then proceed to say ''Bring an automatic weapon/dive in the bubble and melee it''

''Bursa is challenge that you need to overcome'' They say.

Then proceed to say ''CC it, go behind it and shoot it in the console''

''Nerf Meta'' they say.

Because it's bad to use the most efficient tool available to do something. Then proceed to talk about how bringing automatic weapons, CC and shooting weak spots that everyone who points the flaws in those enemies knows about is the right answer to a ''challenge'' that are nullifiers and bursa.

You know the current perfect setup for any place where nullifiers can spawn? Especially for fissure missions?

Inaros with health mods, steel fiber and rage. Melee weapon with the highest reach you can find and fastest swing speed.

What about 40 other warframes? Even the former queen of tanks Valkyr and the former king of tanks Chroma? They don't have enough of a health pool to compete with Inaros on a nullified playing ground.

What about other weapons? They don't kill nullifiers quite as fast as melee modded for reach and swing speed. Even the automatics - you need to concentrate on 1 nullifier and hose it for 2 - 3 seconds, while there are usually 2 or 3 more nearby, with a lot of other units that get ignored by you, but don't ignore you themselves. Some will tell you that's high ROF will be useful. Don't believe them. Nullifier's bubble has a time gate. When it takes damage it shrinks. And while it shrinks it doesn't take damage. So going for higher fire rate then about 15 will just waste your ammo for no benefit.

What about naramon shadow step? Sure. That'll give any frame a chance to use Inaros tactics. If not for the cooldown that's longer then most missions. Especially now when there is no point in staying in endless missions for longer then C rotation.

So, you see. That's what nullifier does. He enforces the meta that so many people are so strongly against. What's the point of keeping buffes up, using powers, setting up traps with powers, using sniper weapons and single shot weapons, when in a couple of seconds there will be a nullifier who is more effective at combating warframe abilities then the Stalker, and is immune to single shot weapons from outside his bubble?

Oh, and did you know that syndicate weapon's discharge doesn't affect nullifiers and those under his portection even if you are right next to him when the discharge happens?

[TheLexiConArtist]

4 minutes ago, markus230 said:

You know that you are going to deal with nullies, its your choice to pick uneffective weapons. Nullies pose the biggest threat on defense missions anyway, you don't need close quarters weapon there

Point still stands: the nullifier, as a specific and individual unit, serves to simply restrict those options by its passive qualities alone.

1 minute ago, Flirk2 said:

''Bursa is challenge that you need to overcome'' They say.

Then proceed to say ''CC it, go behind it and shoot it in the console''

''Nerf Meta'' they say.

Because it's bad to use the most efficient tool available to do something. Then proceed to talk about how bringing automatic weapons, CC and shooting weak spots that everyone who points the flaws in those enemies knows about is the right answer to a ''challenge'' that are nullifiers and bursa.

Just saying, there's a lot more options for that Bursa CC/control than there are present in "go melee the Nullifier kthx". You've got Warframe powers, bullet jumps (with any of 3 out of 4 elemental mods), certain slam attacks, Status procs....

Edited July 27, 2016 by EDYinnit

[(PSN)LeBlingKing]

On 7/8/2016 at 11:32 AM, Kaiser_Suoh said:

 

• Abilities that exist independent of their creator will not be deactivated if the Warframe enters a nullifier, but will be destroyed if touched by the bubble itself. For example, Frost’s Snowglobe will not disappear when Frost enters the bubble, but will be destroyed if the bubble comes into contact with the Snowglobe sphere.

I know this is late, but I think a tiny part of me broke inside. Shattered into a thousand pieces.

[Death_Master_]

Just my opinion how to handle the problem:

Nulls should have uncapped damage on bubbles(brings back bows/snipers/heavy pistols/ etc) and they should take damage from powers(around 50% of damage) that brings it to manageable.... And they should not destroy already active powers/buffs as nulls can appear suddenly anywhere(often their bubble just appears from below(and then null teleports somewhere, seen that on corpus missions) you or they fall on you from above(or they leak suddenly from that fissure(google just fissure, not adding void or warframe and you will see what we fight in real)) when you fight).

[IceColdHawk]

25 minutes ago, markus230 said:

If you tried it, then its only your fault. And whats the point with bringing up pre-hotfix 13 fissures? They don't exist anymore. And that doesn't change the fact that bringing Vauban there and expecting him to be effective is irrational.

It's not much different. I just wanted to be honest when talking about the scenario. And bringing vauban wasn't for the expectation of SUCCESS, it was for the expectation of FUN. Seriously, you are acting like any mission (except from maybe sorties) in this game is CHALLENGING. We're doing fissure missions to grind our parts and we want to enjoy this. It's not hard in any imaginable way once you're high geared, it just gets tedious and annoying and diversity-restricting due to nullicancers.

25 minutes ago, markus230 said:

Are you also having a heart attack everytime you see Nullifier? If not then its not a problem.

I previously stated that my naramon banshee is still op enough to get rid of high lvl nullies. When will you understand they are NOT a challenge?

25 minutes ago, markus230 said:

Exaggeration isn't a good argument.

Probably true. But otherwise i can't comprehend how people can find this unit "fun". It just makes no sense. ^{_{and i wasn't exaggerating, i really thought people would do something like this.}}

25 minutes ago, markus230 said:

And again, if you brought sniper/bow/shotgun, you still have secondary slot, take Furis/Azima/Vipers, anything that has high RoF, problem solved.

I'm even one of those guys that currently runs around with a sniper and an uzi. But, do i enjoy wasting 90% of my ammo into bubbles? Especially when they get spammed? Or enjoy getting my accuracy stat getting drawn into nooblevels because of the bubble accounting the shots as missed?  Or do i get blinded by the fact there is a "counter" for them and just ignore all the flaws this unit has only to defend it and look cool? Answer to all of these is No. Also, didn't you once say they are a counter to our "cheese"? So, why does spamming high RoF (à la boltor prime) work so good against them while skillful usage of snipers is garbage?

Edited July 27, 2016 by IceColdHawk