A valuable scale of experience/skill

[PossiblyMG]

Mastery doesn't work, because half of the time it just means you had the time to sit at Draco 3 hours a day.

Hours played doesn't work, because you could just be standing afk or playing and still not learning anything about the game.

Kills, scans, events- All of it has no meaning.

What do you think would be a good scale to determine whether a player is skilled/experienced that would work 99.9% of the time? Do you think it's already in the game, or do you think DE should create a better system for it?

 

[Phatose]

Even a perfect system would be of questionable value, since players will disagree on what the "skillful" move is, and player skill isn't a constant upward movement anyway.

[FLSH_BNG]

Play with them and see how they do, watch how they interact and help the squad rather than take nothing but selfish actions. There's no real metric you can use that'll work because there will always be people who will learn the system and find ways to manipulate it.

You can't really rate a person's skill without having tests that are designed to be failed and seeing how they deal with them. All we really can do is record what they've done and compare it to what others have also done.

[PossiblyMG]

Just now, FLSH_BNG said:

Play with them

I don't feel like wasting my time risking that they might be bad though

[WrathAscending]

Determining skill is very difficult.

If you make it kill-based, you favour frames like Ash over support frames like Trinity because they can't keep up.

If you make it time-based, you favour frames with speed abilities and players who rush over those who explore and assist other squad members.

If you make it accuracy-based, you'll see Ivaras and Inaroses everywhere with Covert Lethality.

The same can be said for every metric. There are ways to cheese it and they will be exploited. Not only that but if you aren't aggressively cheesing the metric (or aren't very, very good) you'll feel put upon by the game saying "YOU HAVE NO SKILLS." Just on the kill-based example, I've been on runs with Ash players who had twice the kill count of the next-best player but who literally contributed nothing to the success of the mission; the other three players were the ones fending off enemies attacking Defence targets, capturing Intercept points, bringing Power Cells to Excavators, Reviving players who went down, supplying Hijack targets with their shields to keep them moving, etc... it's bad enough that the end of mission screen is valuing the Ash player's run more highly than that already, never mind tying your skill ranking to the same stats. 

What I would suggest instead is that Conclave Rating (perhaps with a different name) come back. It has its flaws but with some rebalancing, like making Steel Fibre worth more on Warframes with high Armour rating and so on, would provide a way to readily gauge how much effort a player has put into their current loadout, which should have an extremely strong correlation with how well they know how to use it. When Conclave Rating was shown some time ago it was easy to get a feel for another player's loadout. Anything under 500 represented Mods that weren't maxed out on Warframes with no Forma. 500-1000 showed maxed Mods and a reasonable amount of Forma. 1500 plus and you knew the player had bought their SRS BSNS equipment.

Edited July 25, 2016 by WrathAscending

[DJkillz]

Mastery rank just provides a guideline for what experienced player. In the end higher Mr usually means more experienced played. Maybe not so much with skill. but experience . Definately. I'm not saying higher MR means experienced. It's just a hood guideline for judging who is more experienced and knowledge bout games tactics and frames weapons and all that. 

Yesterday when i was trolling the chats. A mr21 was ready to buy my excal prime (which I don't have btw) for a decently high amount of plats. So ofc u have those fools like that.

There is a stat in user profile called skill. Idk what it means or how it's calculated. But maybe that actually provides a base for judging?

I usually judge ppl from what frames they r wearing by looking at their profile and also their most used gear and also MR. Its a bit of a pain and takes too long tho tbh but that's just how I judge. 

[MagPrime]

Since skill is subjective to person performing and person observing, DE can't really do anything to create a system that reflects it.

OP, what do you consider player skill?  Is it one state among the dozen provided on our profiles?  Is it a combination of all?  Half?

It's hard to label skill.

[DiePainPain]

I have the smartest and best solution for you all.
 

Spoiler

A better solution is using the number of forma used to rate the player.

 

 

[MagPrime]

Just now, DiePainPain said:

I have the smartest and best solution for you all.
 

  Hide contents

A better solution is using the number of forma used to rate the player.

 

 

How does Forma denote skill?

I mean, between my Mag Prime, Soma Prime, and Carrier Prime I probably have 10 Forma, but that doesn't mean that I actually know how to use them in high level content.  To me, it just means that I have the potential to be a good player, but could still be a walking potato.

[DiePainPain]

3 minutes ago, Noamuth said:

How does Forma denote skill?

I mean, between my Mag Prime, Soma Prime, and Carrier Prime I probably have 10 Forma, but that doesn't mean that I actually know how to use them in high level content.  To me, it just means that I have the potential to be a good player, but could still be a walking potato.

Only when u learn how to play your frame and weapons, and get high rank mods, then u start forma your gears. Yr arguement is asking for the perfect solution, just provide if u have a better one.

[Mastikator2]

In warframe the ability to work as a team and spacial awareness is more important than hand eye coordination and reaction time.

Mastery doesn't tell us anything about skill, but it does say something about experience and there is a correlation between willingness to wait 10 seconds at the elevator and having double digit mastery rank in my experience.

[MagPrime]

4 minutes ago, DiePainPain said:

Only when u learn how to play your frame and weapons, and get high rank mods, then u start forma your gears. Yr arguement is asking for the perfect solution, just provide if u have a better one.

My argument was that it's subjective, and you've provided a perfect example of that.

I don't think that  Forma is an adequate indicator of skill.  Just because you've gained enough mods, and ranked them up, that you need Forma and potatoes to make them fit, doesn't mean you know how to use them.

A good example would be a clan mate of mine.  Good person, but not enough time to play and a lot of free money to just buy what they want.  As a result, they have some top notch items, but no idea how to use them.  I'm frequently answering questions about how to create specific elemental combinations, what works best against which faction or specific enemy.  

By your definition, because they have a much better selection of improved Warframes and weapons, they should have comparable skill, even though I have personal experience proving otherwise.

[PossiblyMG]

19 minutes ago, Noamuth said:

OP, what do you consider player skill?

Knowing what your job is, how you are supposed to mod at the best of your ability, understanding priorities in the mission, having a decent console hacking average time, optimizing anything and everything to be the most effective. Can't think of anything else rn

[DiePainPain]

7 minutes ago, Mastikator2 said:

In warframe the ability to work as a team and spacial awareness is more important than hand eye coordination and reaction time.

Mastery doesn't tell us anything about skill, but it does say something about experience and there is a correlation between willingness to wait 10 seconds at the elevator and having double digit mastery rank in my experience.

Teamwork is overrated in Warframe... u just need 1 person doing most work and probably 2 if u going for end game defense or excavation.

[TrinityPrime]

A series of reworked mastery tests offered by Teshin where he controls exactly what loadouts you use, removes access to your geared consumables, so as to demonstrate that you have understanding of different frames and tactics without relying on overpowering crutches.

I mean, would be nice to know that a player who's reached a mastery rank of <whateva> or equivalent Teshin mastery rank, has that as a sign they've completed sortie level conditions and opposition on their own so you know they can handle themselves.

Then a few coop Teshin tests where players demonstrate teamwork under pressure.

Edited July 25, 2016 by KnotOfMetal

[Mastikator2]

1 minute ago, DiePainPain said:

Teamwork is overrated in Warframe... u just need 1 person doing most work and probably 2 if u going for end game defense or excavation.

Tell me, if you're the first to get to the elevator how long do you wait?

[MagPrime]

5 minutes ago, Maseguad_il_Belo said:

Knowing what your job is, how you are supposed to mod at the best of your ability, understanding priorities in the mission, having a decent console hacking average time, optimizing anything and everything to be the most effective. Can't think of anything else rn

There isn't really anyway for DE to show your requirements. : / 

A lot of your ideals of skill are subjective, specifically "how you are supposed to mod at the best of your ability" and "understanding priorities in the mission"  

The first one, modding how we are "supposed to" I've seen some unique set ups that work shockingly well - A Nekros that relied on Shadows of the Dead to take most of their damage and they focused on spamming Terrify.  This was an amazing build and they managed to get most of the revives on the team as well as outlasted most of the team.  But, due to the meta, this sin't how Nekros is "supposed to be modded"  

To me, that player showed a lot of skill.

The second on, "understanding priorities in the mission" These should be set by the host, and even then, it's subjective due to the nature of Warframe.  We don't really need 4 teammates focused on one task, at most it's two in my experience. So, why do all 4 people have the same priority?  Again, in my experience, they don't.  Two will run the mission objective while the other one or two loot, complete secondary objectives or even do the Simaris scanning.

To me, that shows diverse priorities as well as a little skill discerning who's taking what objective, mainly because so few team communicate.

[DiePainPain]

Just now, Mastikator2 said:

Tell me, if you're the first to get to the elevator how long do you wait?

i look how far is other player that isn't in the elevator, and whether they are moving. Did u wait forever while they are not moving?

[taiiat]

assigning numbers to Skill is a complex metric.

very complex in this game, sadly. Battlefield can tally Skill by tracking playing objectives, effectivenss in combat, doing team related actions, Et Cetera.
Warframe.... the list of things is just sooooo long.

 

however, experience with a bit of Skill, is something that can be easily identified.

as i've talked about before, i am much in support of Mastery Points from Equipment being completely reliant on completing Challenges for each piece of Equipment. XP having absolutely zero influence, instead being given a list of many different types of Challenges to complete to prove your capability to use that piece of Equipment.
which means various things like Killing Enemies quickly, Killing Multiple Enemies in one Shot, Accuracy in a time period while Killing, performing Equipment specific actions (like unique features), and much more.
because these types of things prove that a Player understands the Equipment they're using. but, to be flexible, the Challenges would not be restrictive. you would have the freedom to not have to be an expert at something to get all of the Mastery Points. but Challenges that show more understanding of the game, would award more Mastery, and therefore get you closer to the limit from each piece of Equipment much faster.

so that, as i note in a few words, would show that a Player definitely has experience with a piece of Equipment, and probably has proved some Skill.
that's quite okay for the style of Warframe. doesn't mandate intimate Skill knowledge, but does recognize it.

7 minutes ago, KnotOfMetal said:

A series of reworked mastery tests offered by Teshin where he controls exactly what loadouts you use, removes access to your geared consumables, so as to demonstrate that you have understanding of different frames and tactics without relying on overpowering crutches.

Then a few coop Teshin tests where players demonstrate teamwork under pressure.

if in the same vein as the types of things i have in mind, go nuts. testing Players on understanding how to use various Equipment and Game Mechanics, but not mandating that they have dedicated their life to it previously to get a pass.

[Mastikator2]

11 minutes ago, DiePainPain said:

i look how far is other player that isn't in the elevator, and whether they are moving. Did u wait forever while they are not moving?

How do you see if they're not moving?

[Grimlock84]

There is a measurement of skill under peoples profiles

[DiePainPain]

2 minutes ago, Mastikator2 said:

How do you see if they're not moving?

Don't use the map or minimap, just look at others name it always show where ever they are. They moving or not just look at that

[PossiblyMG]

Just now, Grimlock84 said:

There is a measurement of skill under peoples profiles

We both know it's meaningless and clueless

[Misgenesis]

You cant really measure skill without set rules.

[Grimlock84]

1 minute ago, Maseguad_il_Belo said:

We both know it's meaningless and clueless

The same could be said for any skill measurement implemented, a computer dosnt truly understand dem mlg trickshot skills