Loki balance

[Ibro156]

Here the thing with Loki. Everyone has pretty much gotten used to him. I do think get sorted, he is great players but is probably most cheeses frame next to Trinity's Energy Vampire. Both are pretty much broken IMO. 

Ability 1) I do think his Decoy needs some sort scaling factor or allowing mods to affect how much health the decoy has or something.

Ability 2) His invisibility isn't the only one that's broken. Ivara, Ash, Huras, Shade and Naramon's shadow steps are pretty much one sided as well. I think they need some sort of risk as well. Invisibility should just mean you get outright ignored. They should be a mechanic that makes their footsteps make noise or if they shoot a non-silent weapon that would give their position away. Forcing them to move to another spot.

Ability 3) Switch teleport is a situational thing really. I am not sure about you guys, but I don't really use switch teleport that much. Even then, its argument makes his allies immortal for 6 seconds. Which again it's broken and unbalanced.

Ability 4) Radial Disarm is just what? It pretty much reduces the most dangerous enemies with rocket launchers to sticks. Which am fine with but then it steps into Nyx's territory. The Argument gives off a radiation effect as well. Making the enemies to fight with sticks against each other. This most broken ability I have seen in warframe, honestly, this takes the cake from Trinity's Energy Vampire.

Honestly, here's the real problem I when DE were rebalancing all the Warframes. I was expecting Loki to be on the list as well, but guess that would create a havoc I guess?

 

[Nlim]

A ability which basicly makes all ranged enemies (which are the main threat anyways) useless in a huge area without cooldown or duration... yep balanced.  Only the Warframe community...

Honestly people have no right to complain about Nullifiers if they can look at something like Lokis disarm and have the gall to call such a thing balanced.

[Deskhon]

15 minutes ago, Ibro156 said:

 

Ability 2) His invisibility isn't the only one that's broken. Ivara, Ash, Huras, Shade and Naramon's shadow steps are pretty much one sided as well. I think they need some sort of risk as well. Invisibility should just mean you get outright ignored. They should be a mechanic that makes their footsteps make noise or if they shoot a non-silent weapon that would give their position away. Forcing them to move to another spot.

Ability 4) Radial Disarm is just what? It pretty much reduces the most dangerous enemies with rocket launchers to sticks. Which am fine with but then it steps into Nyx's territory. The Argument gives off a radiation effect as well. Making the enemies to fight with sticks against each other. This most broken ability I have seen in warframe, honestly, this takes the cake from Trinity's Energy Vampire.

Honestly, here's the real problem I when DE were rebalancing all the Warframes. I was expecting Loki to be on the list as well, but guess that would create a havoc I guess?

  Reveal hidden contents

Here's a thing,  without disarm he would be as useless as.. Well,  I'm not here to "roast", but he would be not as useful in team. 

He also has low hp and shields,  it pretty much justifies his invisibility.

 

His disarm can also be justified by poor scaling and OPish enemies,  like scorchers that can hit from 2 tilesets away through the walls... 

Now who really needs the nerf is Ash. Pretty much the only warframe capable of killing 100 levels with his ult. 

Edited July 25, 2016 by Deskhon
Because i want to

[(PSN)Magician_NG]

Loki stole all of Nyx's thunder with the irradiating disarm augment.  What does Nyx get in return?  A less effective passive that has "a chance" to disarm enemies after chaos?  Poor Nyx, always getting the short end of the stick.

[IceColdHawk]

4 hours ago, Cenat said:

I was thinking way so many people hate Loki

Then you may want to think again.

[Ibro156]

14 minutes ago, Deskhon said:

Here's a thing, without disarming he would be as useless as. Well,  I'm not here to "roast", but he would be not as useful in the team. 

 

I fine with the concept of disarming but here's the thing. He's a hard nut to balance without completely destroying is usefulness. I like Loki don't get me wrong but here the thing. He can remove the most dangerous enemies by making them to hold sticks. It just insane. Even then, his Switch Teleport argument allowing him to switch teleport teammate making them immune from damage. This even sales with duration mods, which if your playing Loki. You should be using a high efficient, duration and range build. So it really fits quite well with the build which can give up 12 seconds of immunity. Also being able to be spammed. Can you honestly tell this is balanced?

14 minutes ago, Deskhon said:

He also has low hp and shields,  it pretty much justifies his invisibility.

 

Here the thing Loki has the highest sprint speed in the game. Evan Zephyr was described to mainly made out of Oxium making lighter than air itself, yet she has base sprint speed of 1.15 while Loki has 1.25. It really doesn't much sense but coming back to your comment. With Loki's high sprint speed and incredibly long duration that can last almost up to a minute now. He shouldn't even be touched when Invis. Am not saying he should get nerfed to the ground, hell no that shouldn't happen. Yet the problem is the Stealth is broken itself. Ivara can go invisible as well but she can't move very much. That is called balance. So why is every complaining about Loki? Well, his low health doesn't justify how he can survive so long while invis being able to remove the most dangerous enemies, one of the easiest warframes to acquire and can make allies immortal for a good amount of time. So health makes it balanced now? 

Edited July 25, 2016 by Ibro156

[TheGoodDarius]

4 hours ago, WrathAscending said:

I'd argue it's right up there when combined with the Augment.

So much so it encroaches heavily into Nyx's niche.

Not really. Radial disarm costs way too much compared to Chaos in term of energy and mod capacity and Chaos doesn't incapacitate the enemies like RD does. None of them is really good to imitate the other

[Deskhon]

16 minutes ago, Ibro156 said:

I fine with the concept of disarming but here's the thing. He's a hard nut to balance without completely destroying is usefulness. I like Loki don't get me wrong but here the thing. He can remove the most dangerous enemies by making them to hold sticks. It just insane. Even then, his Switch Teleport argument allowing him to switch teleport teammate making them immune from damage. This even sales with duration mods, which if your playing Loki. You should be using a high efficient, duration and range build. So it really fits quite well with the build which can give up 12 seconds of immunity. Also being able to be spammed. Can you honestly tell this is balanced?

Here the thing Loki has the highest sprint speed in the game. Evan Zephyr was described to mainly made out of Oxium making lighter than air itself, yet she has base sprint speed of 1.15 while Loki has 1.25. It really doesn't much sense but coming back to your comment. With Loki's high sprint speed and incredibly long duration that can last almost up to a minute now. He shouldn't even be touched when Invis. Am not saying he should get nerfed to the ground, hell no that shouldn't happen. Yet the problem is the Stealth is broken itself. Ivara can go invisible as well but she can't move very much. That is called balance. So why is every complaining about Loki? Well, his low health doesn't justify how he can survive so long while invis being able to remove the most dangerous enemies, one of the easiest warframes to acquire and can make allies immortal for a good amount of time. So health makes it balanced now? 

About sprint speed,  yeah it can be seen as wrong,  but Loki was designed to be a stealth frame,  maybe that's why he has that much speed. Anyway,  Zephyr should be buffed instead of Loki nerf then.  Yeah Ivara can't move that much,  but that doesn't make her any worse.  She can easily cheese any interception missions. Alone. 

About his augments,  most people don't use that switch teleport augment,  since Trinity got a (kinda) better alternative.  Radial disarm on the other hand,  is used by most of the loki players.  I don't have it though,  and i feel perfectly fine without it since I can take enemies out with melee while invisible.  I wouldn't mind some tweaks for that augment,  not for the frame itself.

Invisible=Not invicible,  you must not stand in the way of the enemy,  otherwise your invisibility will be useless.  It requires some skill to put it to a good use. It also makes him a great support frame.  I don't want risk because,  well,  then it would make no sense to take him instead of volt on "speed missions"  since enemies would take him out easily while he will,  for example,  run for the capture target. 

It would also make no sense for me to take loki over vauban on a survival mission,  since I would have move careful=slow to my fallen ally. 

 

Edited July 25, 2016 by Deskhon
Because i want to.

[Lokime]

Loki needs tweaks on decoy and switch teleport, nothing more, nothing less. I don't see how RD with augment goes into Nyx territory... the other way round, Nyx passive disarms enemies, she also has an augment for physics bolts to disarm enemies... 

[Kaotyke]

I'm still searching for people hating on Loki...

[Tymerc]

It pleases me that someone was brave enough to make this thread. I had a recent discussion with a friend talking about how Disarm feels quite on the op side, and it's augment also crosses into Nyx's territory usually resulting in people not wanting a Nyx which is not acceptable whatsoever. Augments should not crossover. 

The problem is I am not really sure how it could be changed to where it is no longer pointlessly powerful (being able to take away the threat high level unit pose by simply pressing 4 permanently is op and you know it) while also not making it completely useless. Not that Loki would ever truly be useless mind you. He's still viable for stealth and Trial tasks. 

[Misgenesis]

Invisibility and Radial Disarm most definitely arent balanced when you can get energy back with no effort.

Theres a reason why Loki is popular.

Edited July 25, 2016 by Misgenesis

[King]

You do know that even if the enemies are disarmed, they still hit like a truck with their tinyass baton stick, right?

And his ID lasts WAY shorter than Nyx' Chaos which can lasts for a minute.

Without invis he'll be minced meat in a second. Before you say "QT+PFlow", you'll be staggered if your QT kicks in. Which mean you're a sitting duck there and can cause certain death especially if you got huddled up by those grineers, disarmed or not.

Even if you go full power str, his decoy still get oneshotted most of the time.

His sprint speed is high because he's not a tough frame. He's a trickster ffs. Nimble, causes confusion, yet frail.

But no let's nerf everything to ground until we have no player left, instead of buffing everything else.

[Crawd127]

Wait, is there really a debate about the Radial Disarm being able to access Nyx's Chaos power?

Let's face the fact and see if it's really a good trade off.

Radial Disarm - power 4 that cost 100 energy with a range of 20m at rank 3, with the augment that gives a 9 seconds confusion which the duration cannot be upgraded.

Chaos - power 3 that cost 75 energy with a range of 25m at rank 3 with a duration of 25s at rank 3 and the duration can be upgraded. The augment also provides a way to affect new people in the cercle to be confused with a reduced duration.

I just cannot see how Loki can be on par with his weak version of chaos, which requires the augment for a little 9 seconds where Chaos can go easily over 50 seconds without trouble with a chance of disarming. I feel like Nyx's passive goes more into Nyx territory even if it's a low chance. I like both frame and I don't feel like I'm playing someone else territory when I play them.

Now about Loki, while I understand the debate about invisibility, I will admit that at first, I thought that using a non-silent weapon would remove the invisibility, so I started by using silent weapon, until I found out it wasn't the case. However, the AI may be improved based on that fact. Instead of simply be alerted, why shouldn't they start shooting in the direction of the sound they heard or when they watch an ally dying in front of them. Instead they look like they are saying: "Dude, I know that you told me that you had health problems, but I didn't know it was that bad..."

So, yeah, the only change I would do about invisibility is to remove the invisibility if the user uses a non-silent weapon or the user "hugs" an enemy (hugs as bodybump). I would also like a change about decoy (small immunity before starting to get damages maybe) and switch teleport (small invisibility timer when used, like 2 seconds, just to get out without dying on use), because these abilities are really situational, I only use them together in order to pass some lasers. I will admit that I mainly use Loki for invisibility and uses RD only if there's too much bombards/napalms to reduce the threat level.

[Ibro156]

 

22 hours ago, Deskhon said:

About sprint speed,  yeah it can be seen as wrong,  but Loki was designed to be a stealth frame,  maybe that's why he has that much speed. Anyway,  Zephyr should be buffed instead of Loki nerf then.  Yeah Ivara can't move that much,  but that doesn't make her any worse.  She can easily cheese any interception missions. Alone. 

 

2

Actually, Loki is supposed to be a trickster. Ash is an assassin. Ivara is only true stealth frame. Ivara she's another issue on her own. I was just using her Invis ability as an example of what balanced power is. And yes, I know she can solo cheese interception alone, she another issue on her own. With the current mechanic for invisibility, we have now. It makes that anyone who's invis isn't noticed, and yes I know Invis doesn't equate to immunity but here the thing; if enemies don't know where you are. You can't get harmed.

22 hours ago, Deskhon said:

About his augments,  most people don't use that switch teleport augment,  since Trinity got a (kinda) better alternative.  Radial disarm on the other hand,  is used by most of the loki players.  I don't have it though,  and i feel perfectly fine without it since I can take enemies out with melee while invisible.  I wouldn't mind some tweaks for that augment,  not for the frame itself.

 

3

It dosesn't matter if you use it or not. It matters the fact it in the game and effect it can have. Warframes suppose to be designed to killers but Loki's kit is way too perfect and with argument taking him to the next level. Right now, the low health still doesn't justify his high sprint speed, long invisibility, able to make allies immortal for at least 6 seconds and disarming most dangerous enemies. Honestly, I enjoy a fair argument but you can't change the fact Loki is too perfect. He's like the Oberon and that's a problem.

22 hours ago, Lokime said:

Loki needs tweaks on decoy and switch teleport, nothing more, nothing less. I don't see how RD with augment goes into Nyx territory... the other way round, Nyx passive disarms enemies, she also has an augment for physics bolts to disarm enemies... 

 

 

Well, Loki is stepping Nyx's territory. Nyx identity is really known for causing enemies to fight each other. While Loki just stepped into her's with the Radiating disarm.

[Jangkrik]

5 hours ago, at35z said:

Disarm isn't really the problem, the Augment is.

Radiating Disarm simply should not have happened at all.

THAT needs to be somewhat nerfed so Nyx can still own Chaos as a special ability exclusive to her.

Or just massively increase Nyx's disarm chance? I mean, it wouldn't hurt to buff her right? Not like that'll make her op too.

[DxAdder]

So you want to Nerf Loki ?

This game is hitting a new low every day...

 

[Deskhon]

12 minutes ago, Ibro156 said:

To make a fair argument. I'll to see things from both sides. Even then there are a quite few people who think Loki is balanced. To be fair Loki is balanced as much as group of Nullies are :3

Actually, Loki is supposed to be a trickster. Ash is an assassin. Ivara is only true stealth frame. Ivara she's another issue on her own. I was just using her Invis ability as an example of what balanced power is. And yes, I know she can solo cheese interception alone, she another issue on her own. With the current mechanic for invisibility, we have now. It makes that anyone who's invis isn't noticed, and yes I know Invis doesn't equate to immunity but here the thing; if enemies don't know where you are. You can't get harmed.

It dosesn't matter if you use it or not. It matters the fact it in the game and effect it can have. Warframes suppose to be designed to killers but Loki's kit is way too perfect and with argument taking him to the next level. Right now, the low health still doesn't justify his high sprint speed, long invisibility, able to make allies immortal for at least 6 seconds and disarming most dangerous enemies. Honestly, I enjoy a fair argument but you can't change the fact Loki is too perfect. He's like the Oberon and that's a problem.

Well, Loki is stepping Nyx's territory. Nyx identity is really known for causing enemies to fight each other. While Loki just stepped into her's with the Radiating disarm.

Ivara is Robin Hood,  m8,  not a stealth frame. So,  you say invisibility is not fair?  What is fair then?  Ashes ult that kills everything in the room and lets you restore your shields while doing it? Again,  I still think that Loki's invis is justified,  because he is EXTREMELY squishy,  like,  2 bombards in a room and you're done,  that threat system you thinked of would make sense in some Metal gear game,  not in a warframe. Yes,  loki can disarm,  if someone notices him,  but he will die by the time he will cast it.

"Loki is too perfect"

So you can't have a warframe with all skills useful today without people asking to nerf it. Alright. 

Again, loki doesn't need to be tweaked, his augments need to be.

Also, Nyx skill is better than loki's, in my opinion, and even if it's not, she should be buffed, not loki nerfed.

 

[Ibro156]

13 minutes ago, Deskhon said:

Ivara is Robin Hood,  m8,  not a stealth frame. So,  you say invisibility is not fair?  What is fair then?  Ashes ult that kills everything in the room and lets you restore your shields while doing it? Again,  I still think that Loki's invis is justified,  because he is EXTREMELY squishy,  like,  2 bombards in a room and you're done,  that threat system you thinked of would make sense in some Metal gear game,  not in a warframe. Yes,  loki can disarm,  if someone notices him,  but he will die by the time he will cast it.

"Loki is too perfect"

So you can't have a warframe with all skills useful today without people asking to nerf it. Alright. 

Again, loki doesn't need to be tweaked, his augments need to be.

Also, Nyx skill is better than loki's, in my opinion, and even if it's not, she should be buffed, not loki nerfed.

 

9

Okay, one; calm down.

Two; we can agree that the arguments need some sort of lock? Or cool down on them. This would fix most people's issues with them.

Three; I'll be honest here. I just REMEBERED (yes, I know what I said) that Loki is rather weak against the Infested. That seems fair.

Right, now his arguments need some sort of lock to them or cool down.

Edited July 25, 2016 by Ibro156

[BlackCoMerc]

6 hours ago, Cenat said:

I was thinking way so many people hate Loki and when I got Loki Prime today I found out his Invis was okay since he didn't have offensive abilities then I saw RD. Holy horseshoes. I thought maybe...just maybe it could be at base 100% chance to disarm but reduced by Overextended? Idk it would just mean you can't go crazy range. And maybe 80% chance to disarm enemies with Overextended. 

My thought is that Loki is one of the frames for whom the Nerf Hammer IS coming. Its not an If, but a When. And I am mysteriously okay with that, despite enjoying him myself and having his Prime version. 

My thought is that the Nerf Hammer will strike the following frames (including Loki) in some way similar to the below:

-Nova: Prime keeps the slow, but loses damage buff. Or vice versa.

-Vauban: Bastille is not recastable while active, but has Repel built in, and a new, DoT Augment introduced, with a radius buff. Use it to secure a location, not lock down whole maps.

-Nyx: Chaos is not recastable. Tactically keep affected enemies alive to distract new spawns, as opposed to just using it as stun

-Loki: Disarm now jams guns for a brief duration as opposed to removing them entirely. 

 

I am thinking nerfs like this will probably roll out with damage 3.0. A more balanced game will be completely broken by frames who can lock down whole maps and completely remove enemy weapons from play. I cannot help but think this has to happen.

[DeFragMe]

8 minutes ago, Deskhon said:

 Again,  I still think that Loki's invis is justified,  because he is EXTREMELY squishy,  like,  2 bombards in a room and you're done,  that threat system you thinked of would make sense in some Metal gear game,  not in a warframe. Yes,  loki can disam

Just to justify something about iavar, since i just read that... eventhought ivara has more shields (by 25) and more Energy..its the same, instant death most cases. on Grinnere maps that even is more visible, because if you are fast on the way (rolling around as ivara since you dont want to break your invisibilty on sedna) and dont notice a single mine on the floor, you nearly instantly los all your energy (because you lose per hit energy and those darn mines hit in high speed)... you dont have that problem as loki, you only need to recast it when it ends.

 

but alltogether, the discusion is about loki, so my sentence to this :

 

Lokis disarm is quite fine, because it can backfire in a group quite hard if you have other melee friends with you in sorties... at least if they are not prepaired to get rushed down by 50 units that try to poke you with a stick.

[Deskhon]

1 minute ago, DeFragMe said:

Just to justify something about iavar, since i just read that... eventhought ivara has more shields (by 25) and more Energy..its the same, instant death most cases. on Grinnere maps that even is more visible, because if you are fast on the way (rolling around as ivara since you dont want to break your invisibilty on sedna) and dont notice a single mine on the floor, you nearly instantly los all your energy (because you lose per hit energy and those darn mines hit in high speed)... you dont have that problem as loki, you only need to recast it when it ends.

Well, honestly it is kinda early to judge Ivara's survivability by now, who knows  what augments she will get.

 

3 minutes ago, Ibro156 said:

Okay, one; calm down.

Two; we can agree that the arguments need some sort of lock? Or cool down on them. This would fix most people's issues with them.

Three; I'll be honest here. I just REMEBER (yes, I know what I said) that Loki is rather weak against the Infested. That seems fair.

Right, now his arguments need some sort of lock to them or cool down.

Well, actually I was calm, I wrote extremely in caps to bring attention to it or something.

 

[(PSN)whoistimjones]

3 hours ago, Stoner74 said:

Wait what?? I fail to understand your point. You say frost needs a nerf? And vauban? Let me laugh at that one... ... ... ok. 

Trinity and Valkyr got nerfed hard in U18.13. Loki, Nova, Booben and Frost are pretty much balanced. Not sure what you're talking about.

Trinity's range was nerfed, whoop de doo. Its still pretty big, you just cant be at 1 LoR injector while Trinity is at another.

As for Valkyr, i know she was nerfed, but i don't like her or the people who main her so i added her anyway. I didn't say "Valkyr again" i just added her because she's a "Main frame".

As for Frost, his fourth needs to freeze at end of the animation, not the beginning. Its basically an alternative MP without the range(Nova range nerf as well as a LoS nerf. If its not in the same room or a wall is between the enemy and MP it shouldn't affect said enemy).

Vauban Vortext should work just like Mags Greedy pull, Only for Caster, as well as reduce the range of bastille or reduce the duration.

How people think all of these are ok, but Mesa cant stand in 1 spot and Auto aim or Saryn cant outright melt, or whatever people are complaining about with Ash, i will never know.

 

3 hours ago, Roachester said:

What in God's name are you even talking about?

Read it and its plain to see.

[PoobahTheGrand]

1 hour ago, Ibro156 said:

Here the thing with Loki. Everyone has pretty much gotten used to him. I do think get sorted, he is great players but is probably most cheeses frame next to Trinity's Energy Vampire. Both are pretty much broken IMO. 

Ability 1) I do think his Decoy needs some sort scaling factor or allowing mods to affect how much health the decoy has or something.

Ability 2) His invisibility isn't the only one that's broken. Ivara, Ash, Huras, Shade and Naramon's shadow steps are pretty much one sided as well. I think they need some sort of risk as well. Invisibility should just mean you get outright ignored. They should be a mechanic that makes their footsteps make noise or if they shoot a non-silent weapon that would give their position away. Forcing them to move to another spot.

Ability 3) Switch teleport is a situational thing really. I am not sure about you guys, but I don't really use switch teleport that much. Even then, its argument makes his allies immortal for 6 seconds. Which again it's broken and unbalanced.

Ability 4) Radial Disarm is just what? It pretty much reduces the most dangerous enemies with rocket launchers to sticks. Which am fine with but then it steps into Nyx's territory. The Argument gives off a radiation effect as well. Making the enemies to fight with sticks against each other. This most broken ability I have seen in warframe, honestly, this takes the cake from Trinity's Energy Vampire.

Honestly, here's the real problem I when DE were rebalancing all the Warframes. I was expecting Loki to be on the list as well, but guess that would create a havoc I guess?

 

 

1. Agree

2. How is his invisibility broken? Stealth bonus removed if you come in contact with the enemy. If if you're using silent weapons, if one enemy sees his comrade die, everyone gets alerted. Enemies attack the last place the "sensed" him at, and retaliate when attacked. Ivara was already nerfed, with each little action costing extra energy, and attacking with non silent weapons takes you out of invisibility. Huras invisibility is removed when you attack. Ash and shade is the same deal as Loki and guess (though I never used shade)

3. Wow. 6 seconds of being immune to damage when Loki switches places with you which is probably putting you in a safe position away from enemies anyway unless they are trolling.

4. At least they are reduced to sticks. You look at other abilities that stuns them completely like rest, prism, radial blind, Avalanche, Bastile,(molecular prime slows them down to a sloth and makes them a walking landmine just waiting to be triggered)  and among others and this is the most broken ability to you? And you're right, his augment is stepping into Nyx's territory. But there are too many frames from everyone of them to be complete my unique. All the abilities I listed have the same thing in common. They stun the enemy, with a few of them doing it in the same exact way.

 

 

[Ibro156]

2 minutes ago, PoobahTheGrand said:

3. Wow. 6 seconds of being immune to damage when Loki switches places with you which is probably putting you in a safe position away from enemies anyway unless they are trolling.

What makes worse. It can be scaled as well with duration mods. Which you should already have as your playing Loki. So it can be easily around 10 to 12 seconds of immortality with good build.