New Void is still boring

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

2 hours ago, PoopManZ said:

I think the main problem is that between combat, visual reward and progression and challenge, Warframe gets really stale in a much shorter period of time than other MMOs with the way they interact in this current state. Once you are at the experienced player flash-point, all of the awe and flashy mechanics of the game becomes trivial, its really hollow and you are just running a treadmill for either MR (and by default gear grind, which leads to another core issue with MR) or looks. If the only thing that offers game-play longevity to people is infinite challenges with messed up stat sloping, thats a huge red flag in the game. Void has lost its point, and we are still stuck with the problem with Veterans being disengaged from fun with the game other than running either of the two hamster wheels. The only point of the Void being endgame (and the Void being the ONLY non-raiding endgame) was that it had prime parts and it offered high scale endless mode, thats pretty terrible in a design&balance perspective. SOTR did try to address making the regular starchart engaging again with Ceph frags and other things, but there is a long long way to go to put more "game" in the veteran period of player lifespan. Ceph frags dont provide longevity and the Junctions are a complete joke to people who are geared to the teeth already. The alarm system is a complete joke outside of being a time sink if its a lockdown alarm and other vanilla mechanics that have been forgotten. Despite all of DE's renewals and reinnovation, I can say only a little bit has moved forward on the actual end of content-mass:reward:fun ratio for experienced players. Thats a huge issue for a game centering itself on being an MMO to continue to be sustainable overall, it puts a huge demand on the developers to keep throwing out updates (ooo shiny) to bring burnt out people back in (and in turn having to go back and reinnovate what ever they threw out at a later date) instead of constructively building up expansions. This did not work out for Firefall at all (but to be fair, they remade the ENTIRE game multiple times). 

 

Considerable resources have been spent in making really imaginative enemy types that can actually make all mission types challenging if they were intelligently grouped together in fireteams. But instead we get huge zombie swarms of no-brainer units, get spammed with units that are just very annoying in huge swathes for the guise of challenge instead of sprinkled intelligently (Nullifiers and Bombards), or be so irrelevant in spawn that they might as well not exist to engage the player in the first place (Manics, Combas, Bursas, etc.). Not to mention the Dynasty Warrior-esque gameplay does not offer long-term replay-ability, but is only good in short-term bursts.  Some of the tactical alert combos were interesting, and can be incoporated into the alarm system. For example, if one of the alarm results was to make the Grineer ship darken in lighting and start spewing out only Manics, that would be an awesome OH @$@$ moment that can provide excitement in normal missions. Also it would fit with the idea that the enemy is actively trying to stop you with what they have if you are detected in a logical sense. This adds in a different kind of scale that can be adjusted as the player progresses where you can start throwing in more complicated hazards, enemy formations and alarms when the player is expected to be more developed in equipment and skill, and validate the entire point of Mastery Rank Tests. The Rank Tests by the way, being the most creative use of mission creation and unit use, but are relegated to one-off missions. With the game's emphasis on parkouring and ninjaing, I find it ridiculous it has been years and we still don't have parkour-dedicated missions (like being the operative that recovers the goodies for the Survival mission Tenno) instead of just murderbash. Again being relegated to extremely minor one-off experiences (and pointless unless you still need the Moon Exilus Mods) in missions. There are plenty of things in the base game that can be utilized to have a more diverse experience that can tie in rewards.

Hit the nail on the head

Edited July 26, 2016 by 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4

[OniDax]

IMO, part of the "boringness" of Warframe is the fact that the enemy AI is just too simple, and correspondingly, the gameplay is too simple. Slow the game down, require more strategy, create more dynamic gameplay (having to fight from cover or having an AC-like melee system or having a more immersive/visceral environment/terrain). Don't just add new gimmicky features to the game (e.g. Focus). Make the game a complete, immersive experience. Make it more open-world (all tileset rooms/areas available, with a multiple, varied objectives) combined with an actual story and narrative to guide players through. Get rid of the grind-based mentality. Grind gets boring because grind-based gameplay requires simple, mind-numbing gameplay in order to be repetitive. Take a look at other games in the genre to see what is popular and what is successful, and emulate those things, not random games that have nothing to do with Warframe's genre.

[(PSN)mr_chainsaw555]

15 minutes ago, Nlim said:

The goal was to make more missions and enemy factions availiable for void farming and not force you into the same misson anymore if you are looking for a specific part. The goal wasn´t to reinvent how basic gameplay works - this isn´t really something which can just be changed in one or two updates without being a major focus.

From my perspective the question is if the new system is better than the old void gameplay wise and with todays Update I would say almost - being able to play with more factions on more maps with more mission types is a big plus in my book, only thing I miss from the old system is a reason to go on longer endless runs. Relics mostly encourages to finish a mission as soon as the fissure is closed which kind of normalized the mission length to a fairly short one - there aren´t many choices now if one wants to go for longer runs (outside maybe relic farming).

If they mange to make both longer and shorter runs viable rewards/time wise than I would call the system a great success.

 

1 minute ago, ArchPhaeton said:

Of course if you play something 20 hours a day you'll eventually get absolutely bored of it regardless of what the devs put or not in the game.

I'm saying this as an 3k+h veteran that finds most of the recent changes to be headed in the right direction, and while I play often I don't do it as obessively as before because I felt the boredom as well. It will happen with any game and anything really.

looks like us three are the only ones who are actually reasonable here

 

well, looks like i got another circle jerk on my hands,

 

to those of you who want some kind of ultra-deep gameplay and hyper-intelligent AI, sorry but this isn't the game for that kind of stuff (mostly looking at you poopmanz), similar to something like the arkham games, shadow of mordor, COD zombies or dynasty warriors, the fun part of the game comes from just going on full-on murder sprees against legions of enemies, the more enemies that are thrown in, the better.

in the case of this, would having intelligent AI enemies be awesome? of course it will, but it's not an absolute necessity in my eyes, as long as they're shooting at me and not humping a wall somewhere, i'll live

 

[GreyEnneract]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)mr_chainsaw555 said:

 

looks like us three are the only ones who are actually reasonable here

 

well, looks like i got another circle jerk on my hands,

 

to those of you who want some kind of ultra-deep gameplay and hyper-intelligent AI, sorry but this isn't the game for that kind of stuff (mostly looking at you poopmanz), similar to something like the arkham games, shadow of mordor, COD zombies or dynasty warriors, the fun part of the game comes from just going on full-on murder sprees against legions of enemies, the more enemies that are thrown in, the better.

in the case of this, would having intelligent AI enemies be awesome? of course it will, but it's not an absolute necessity in my eyes, as long as they're shooting at me and not humping a wall somewhere, i'll live

 

The only thing that needs intelligent AI is our damn pets.

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)mr_chainsaw555 said:

 

looks like us three are the only ones who are actually reasonable here

 

well, looks like i got another circle jerk on my hands,

 

to those of you who want some kind of ultra-deep gameplay and hyper-intelligent AI, sorry but this isn't the game for that kind of stuff (mostly looking at you poopmanz), similar to something like the arkham games, shadow of mordor, COD zombies or dynasty warriors, the fun part of the game comes from just going on full-on murder sprees against legions of enemies, the more enemies that are thrown in, the better.

in the case of this, would having intelligent AI enemies be awesome? of course it will, but it's not an absolute necessity in my eyes, as long as they're shooting at me and not humping a wall somewhere, i'll live

 

I honestly don't mind the game as is right now either, but intelligent enemies (and admitedly pets) wouldn't be something I'm opposed to, as long as DE gets around to fixing the important bits first

[_enon]

1 minute ago, GreyEnneract said:

The only thing that needs intelligent AI is our damn pets.

pets and buddies in general could be fixed with a command system.

goddamn, I remember Perfect Dark having a perfect command system for allies, in which holding a key would bring up a splash screen of specific commands that would affect gameplay greatly.

[GreyEnneract]

Just now, thalx said:

pets and buddies in general could be fixed with a command system.

goddamn, I remember Perfect Dark having a perfect command system for allies, in which holding a key would bring up a splash screen of specific commands that would affect gameplay greatly.

That would certainly help greatly, however I doubt it would fix the old bug of Kubrows and now Kavats just standing in place growling at an enemy as it shoots them in the face.

I know programming AI is notoriously difficult, but this honestly seems like a simple fix.

[MacabreHaze]

1 hour ago, Master-Nachash said:

What I think people need to remember is the fact that Warframe is a work-in-progress. And as DE have stated over time and more recently, quite often in direct relation to the recent updates, the changes being made are gradual and will come together over time and will make more sense over time.

The issues with the void will be addressed when the other issues DE considers more pressing are dealt with first.

Be patient Tenno. Things are changing gradually, for the better.

Thing is, There is a difference between Patience and Complacency. 

Patience - Well this is crap, but I'll throw out some complaints here and there of what I think is crap. Maybe even a suggestion or two. 
Non-Patience - THIS IS CRAP I'M LEAVING
Complacency - Well.. maybe its crap. But I guess thats just how it is. I won't offer anything to discussion of why its crap or how to fix it, but pretend everything is just A-Okay

[Master-Nachash]

3 minutes ago, MacabreHaze said:

Thing is, There is a difference between Patience and Complacency. 

Patience - Well this is crap, but I'll throw out some complaints here and there of what I think is crap. Maybe even a suggestion or two. 
Non-Patience - THIS IS CRAP I'M LEAVING
Complacency - Well.. maybe its crap. But I guess thats just how it is. I won't offer anything to discussion of why its crap or how to fix it, but pretend everything is just A-Okay

Thing is though, I don't think it's crap, I think it's a step in the right direction. I like it.

[MacabreHaze]

2 minutes ago, Master-Nachash said:

Thing is though, I don't think it's crap, I think it's a step in the right direction. I like it.

However, that would also mean you don't believe its there, since its only a single step in the right direction. Kinda like saying you're gonna go to Disney Land (Or other place you want to go.) And you step outside your door. You took a step in the right direction. But you're just outside the door and no where near Disney Land. 

[DeMonkey]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)mr_chainsaw555 said:

looks like us three are the only ones who are actually reasonable here

So anyone who disagrees with the change is unreasonable? Bit of a narrowminded view on things, but hey, if you want to insult everyone else in this thread be my guest.

7 minutes ago, (PS4)mr_chainsaw555 said:

well, looks like i got another circle jerk on my hands,

Really? I see plenty of people offering separate opinions, different perspectives etc. Sure, if everyone was saying the same thing with no variation to the points presented then I would agree with you, but that isn't happening, so I don't. 

12 minutes ago, (PS4)mr_chainsaw555 said:

to those of you who want some kind of ultra-deep gameplay and hyper-intelligent AI, sorry but this isn't the game for that kind of stuff (mostly looking at you poopmanz), similar to something like the arkham games, shadow of mordor, COD zombies or dynasty warriors, the fun part of the game comes from just going on full-on murder sprees against legions of enemies, the more enemies that are thrown in, the better.

This is subjective. Not everyone enjoys killing an unending hivemind of pawns.

You also can't definitively state that Warframe isn't the game for 'ultra-deep gameplay' and 'hyper-intelligent AI' (those are strawmen btw, no one's actually asked for that specifically, just upgrades). I mean, why can't that be an end goal for the game? What's stopping DE? Technology will change, computers will get better. There will be no reason for us to still be fighting mindless drones that only perform about 4 actions.

Just my two cents pennies on your post, wanted to make sure you realised you had 'accidentally' insulted everyone else in the thread whilst criticising an argument that doesn't exist.

[Master-Nachash]

4 minutes ago, MacabreHaze said:

However, that would also mean you don't believe its there, since its only a single step in the right direction. Kinda like saying you're gonna go to Disney Land (Or other place you want to go.) And you step outside your door. You took a step in the right direction. But you're just outside the door and no where near Disney Land. 

Hahaha, well, the thing is with Warframe. We can't measure distance. Because we don't have the full picture of where we're going or how we're getting there. Only DE has that.

What we do have though is perspective of where we are. And that's all this comes down to really. Perspective. I like where we are right now and where the game SEEMS to be going. My perspective is that the game is changing at an almost fundamental level, and it's kinda scary, but I've not been disappointed with the changes yet. Had a few "shock horror" moments, but when I've adjusted I've seen the benefit of the changes and accepted them, and begun to enjoy them.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Master-Nachash

[PoopManZ]

34 minutes ago, (PS4)mr_chainsaw555 said:

 

looks like us three are the only ones who are actually reasonable here

 

well, looks like i got another circle jerk on my hands,

 

to those of you who want some kind of ultra-deep gameplay and hyper-intelligent AI, sorry but this isn't the game for that kind of stuff (mostly looking at you poopmanz), similar to something like the arkham games, shadow of mordor, COD zombies or dynasty warriors, the fun part of the game comes from just going on full-on murder sprees against legions of enemies, the more enemies that are thrown in, the better.

in the case of this, would having intelligent AI enemies be awesome? of course it will, but it's not an absolute necessity in my eyes, as long as they're shooting at me and not humping a wall somewhere, i'll live

 

The problem is enemy assortment, not enemy AI. Its impossible to ask for some deep Skynet AI that can adapt to how you play, but you can change how the pieces are cast in a way to make things fresh as you progress. The problems that are hurting Warframe does not include enemy AI, its the scale of reward to freshness of gameplay. For an MMO, Warframe should not look to keep people in short bursts of attention but on a long community basis otherwise it puts an exaggerated stress on the developers to provide constantly.

Edited July 27, 2016 by PoopManZ

[Askell91]

yep its still boring

[BPNPC]

This reactant collecting minigame is awful. For quick missions like Capture/Sabotage you can finish the objective in 2mins, yet you need to spend 5+ minutes running around collecting reactants. This is the opposite of fun.

AND since reactant is collected individually, it means that one player can finish before another. The first time I ran it, I joined the mission mid-way and collected 8 reactants before my teammates extracted. No prime parts or traces for me. Then when I ran it again, I collected my reactants before anyone else, and being the nice guy I am, decided to wait by extraction instead of extracting. Guess what? System marked me as AFK. No rewards at all.

what a S#&$ty system

[CY13ERPUNK]

2 hours ago, armedpoop said:

Strange to think that this was how they went about decreasing "void fatigue". This just moves that "fatigue" to main mission types. This pretty much effectively just removed the reason to go to the void. (which may be good or bad depending on how long you been playing)

it boggles my mind how someone thought that the best way to fix 'void fatigue' was just make 'same mission fatigue but with different tilesets' instead... =/ 

this might have worked if DE spent any/more time on making the individual tilesets more than just 'skins' ie if they actually played differently and affected the game more

but as is, we only have a handful of flora/fauna most of which are pointless and the only missions with even remotely interesting mechanics are the brand new spy/sabotage/rescue ones and even they are fairly simplistic

of course it makes things even worse when the 'corrupted' is without question the most boring/derivative faction ingame, and DE trying to make it seem more 'ominous' by just throwing it all over the place doesnt help, but only hurts, becuz it just points out even more how lame it is

EVEN IF DE 'improved' the corrupted by removing the lameo butchers and added some better other units : Chargers/Leapers, Hyenas/Techs, Flameblades/Scorpions its still a completely derivative faction without enough substance to seem unique on its own

bottom line, the Neural Sentry needs a 'face' the void needs to be more dangerous and have 'worthwhile' loot and the corrupted as a 'faction' need more defining qualities and interesting/engaging mechanics that seperate and distinguish them from the other factions

IMHO the 'new void' would have been MUCH better if it was just a random void portal tile stuffed into a mission that allowed you to use a key/relic/whatevs to go into the void and get the loot then escape back into the base mission and boom, but oh well... [clearly more to it than just this, but for brevity's sake...]

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

They probably need to do this :

1 - Make these missions truly endless... As in endlessly getting void traces and getting prime part drops every five minutes / five waves like before.

2 - Make these void tears closer to Void Sabotage, but inverted. You start in a regular star chart node, activate a void fissure portal thingy, go do your objective in the void, then come back out and get your rewards.... That way these mission still retaing their cool "orokin void" vibe while making you explore more of the star chart and fight more varied enemies.... Perhaps you could do half of your objective in the initial node, and the other half in the void or something... Could be a good opportunity for dual objective missions... Like Survival in on a corpus planet, followed by defense in the void or something once the void fissure portal opens.

Edited July 27, 2016 by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra

[Laidain]

Man,the Warframe community has no chill and are just savages. 

[BlackCoMerc]

3 hours ago, BPNPC said:

Void corruption is a gimmick that adds nothing to gameplay. I ran a couple of the new Void missions, and in each case they played out EXACTLY like the missions we've done a million times before. Void-corrupted enemies sound cool but the buffs are negligible even at Axi tier, and you slaughter them like you slaughter everything else. "Collect the reactant" similarly is boring, and again, you're literally doing exactly what you would be doing in a regular mission (killing enemies and running around). The only thing reactant-collecting does is prolong trivial missions like Capture and Sabotage.

I will be fair and say that this new Void is better than "close-the-fissure" Void, but that is an extremely low bar.

Just to be clear: I am NOT talking about the relic or trace grind. Level of grind wouldn't matter if missions were fun to play. The new Void is not fun to play.

I respectfully disagree. 

Not with the points you make themselves. This does not add anything new. It does not change the actual game play. And in the longer run yes, this will become a problem.

On the other hand, I still enjoy Warframe gameplay from moment to moment. Mission type does not matter, for the most part. So long as its not Spy or Rescue I enjoy the game. Therefore, I just see this new system as gaining additional rewards for the enjoyment I already derived from playing in general.

If however you were burned out on the game and hoping this would bring actual new game play...yeah, I could more than understand your position and boredom.

[hey_guess_what]

2 hours ago, Master-Nachash said:

What I think people need to remember is the fact that Warframe is a work-in-progress. And as DE have stated over time and more recently, quite often in direct relation to the recent updates, the changes being made are gradual and will come together over time and will make more sense over time.

The issues with the void will be addressed when the other issues DE considers more pressing are dealt with first.

Be patient Tenno. Things are changing gradually, for the better.

I have posted this over and over a PTS (public test server) in a stand alone client testing specific things will do two things. One have a place for people to test and report bugs without ruining game play, and two have a place to test and perfect ideas from the masses without ruining our warframe experience in the meantime.  I don't need an update every month and people will always complain, but if they spent more time proactively fixing issues and testing new ideas then there wouldn't be a boring game period.  

This business model of shoving crap ideas on players and trying to fix what they break, if you can even call it a business model, is why major studios turn them down to begin with.  

Lastly, they have investors this isn't some rag tag kickstarter game this is a game that makes money.  They don't run off of plat sales alone.  So is it really too much to ask for when I ask for a fun game that is mildly bug free (playable) and an explanation for the logic behind apparent bad designs?  I have spent money on this game, and about what you would expect a major developer title to cost without the professionalism or the consistent good content.  I hate what this game has become and like most major titles I am bored within a few months, but unlike major titles I feel cheated out of my money with this game.  In one update they managed to ruin the only thing I had fun doing in the game which is the void.  I could care less about the star map unless I need it for a sortie, and the end game is abysmal at best.  No real advances in end game potential which should be prime items/legendary items, but hey lets just hand them out to everyone and make it boring for anyone with good mods and gear and to top it off let's nerf the credits so the new players won't reach our lack of an end game just yet.  

Yeah gradually making things better after they kill the fun.

PSA: If they need your input to make this game better you are doing their jobs for them without any pay.  Here I thought game developers actually came up with their own ideas and made games off of those ideas.  My bad.

[Tricky5hift]

13 minutes ago, hey_guess_what said:

I have posted this over and over a PTS (public test server) in a stand alone client testing specific things will do two things. One have a place for people to test and report bugs without ruining game play, and two have a place to test and perfect ideas from the masses without ruining our warframe experience in the meantime.  I don't need an update every month and people will always complain, but if they spent more time proactively fixing issues and testing new ideas then there wouldn't be a boring game period.  

This business model of shoving crap ideas on players and trying to fix what they break, if you can even call it a business model, is why major studios turn them down to begin with.  

Lastly, they have investors this isn't some rag tag kickstarter game this is a game that makes money.  They don't run off of plat sales alone.  So is it really too much to ask for when I ask for a fun game that is mildly bug free (playable) and an explanation for the logic behind apparent bad designs?  I have spent money on this game, and about what you would expect a major developer title to cost without the professionalism or the consistent good content.  I hate what this game has become and like most major titles I am bored within a few months, but unlike major titles I feel cheated out of my money with this game.  In one update they managed to ruin the only thing I had fun doing in the game which is the void.  I could care less about the star map unless I need it for a sortie, and the end game is abysmal at best.  No real advances in end game potential which should be prime items/legendary items, but hey lets just hand them out to everyone and make it boring for anyone with good mods and gear and to top it off let's nerf the credits so the new players won't reach our lack of an end game just yet.  

Yeah gradually making things better after they kill the fun.

PSA: If they need your input to make this game better you are doing their jobs for them without any pay.  Here I thought game developers actually came up with their own ideas and made games off of those ideas.  My bad.

There is so much wrong with this post, I just can't even right now.

[PoopManZ]

33 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

I respectfully disagree. 

Not with the points you make themselves. This does not add anything new. It does not change the actual game play. And in the longer run yes, this will become a problem.

On the other hand, I still enjoy Warframe gameplay from moment to moment. Mission type does not matter, for the most part. So long as its not Spy or Rescue I enjoy the game. Therefore, I just see this new system as gaining additional rewards for the enjoyment I already derived from playing in general.

If however you were burned out on the game and hoping this would bring actual new game play...yeah, I could more than understand your position and boredom.

If this were a single player game, a moment to moment basis is ideal like Shadow of Mordor (another super hack and slash play like Warframe) but when you have an MMO, you have a live dev team that can potentially be overstretched to keep producing to stay afloat. Now Warframe is no where near a dying state of course, I am just merely talking about long-term health.

[PoopManZ]

19 hours ago, Venom-Snake said:

No, I believe this one is a step forward from what it was before: We can continue to do our missions without taking a detour and standing in 1 place, then going back to the mission, it has progression.

I will admit, this update had upsides and downsides.

The upside is that we can just run the mission as normal do and get rewarded in the process.

The downside is that it doesnt add to the gameplay, only gimmicks and stronger enemies. Not the type that makes you wary of getting hit like a Level 100 Napalm, but its up there. I just did a Neo Fissure MD in the Void and for the first time in months, I had the whole team downed.

With I guess now Prime Part Mission 3.0, the problem isn't void fatigue, it's in general veteran fatigue with actual game-play to reward diversity (not just different flavors of mass murder) and DE's expectations of how enemies and the tile-set should interact with the player. The only incentives for older players are prime parts, and thats not good. Incentives have to be a lot more diverse/rewarding if a more diverse and engaging mission spread is to be feasible. Otherwise you'd still have advanced players only playing where the prime parts are offered, and the missions still involving just killing as many enemies as you can.  Its one thing to burn out on a game in playing it for an extreme amount of hours, but Warframe burns out on its gameplay way too fast for typical MMO standards. 

Edited July 27, 2016 by PoopManZ

[maxedpotato]

i just wish we still had endless void :(

[Don_T_Shoot]

19 hours ago, CY13ERPUNK said:

IMHO the 'new void' would have been MUCH better if it was just a random void portal tile stuffed into a mission that allowed you to use a key/relic/whatevs to go into the void and get the loot then escape back into the base mission and boom, but oh well... [clearly more to it than just this, but for brevity's sake...]

That is exactly what I thought they were going to do when they first brought up blowing up the Void.  They mentioned using your key in a regular mission (I don't think they had idea of "relic" just yet)  So the Void would be damaged and no longer directly accessible they way it was before. You'd have to find tears in the regular world to enter the Void.

This way, you could do normal missions with PUGs, Clan, or whoever, and if you found a Void tear you could access it in the mission if someone had a key.  Portal to Void opens, you do some sort of Void mission (as they were before?  abbreviated?  dunno) and return to the mission at hand. 

Alternate idea, if you completed the Void mission, you could either extract as usual or extract to original mission with the objectives already completed for the original..not sure about that part.

But the point is, the Void would still be the place to get Primes, as per lore.  It would still be a dangerous place (more or less) but everyone would be able to go provided they ran with someone with a key equipped.

Maybe that's all too convoluted but there has to be a more interesting method than spawning slightly buffed enemies in a regular mission and relegating the Void to just some other tileset with no particular use.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Don_T_Shoot
typos