Specters of the Rail: U2.1 - Nekros Changes

[RealPandemonium]

On 8/12/2016 at 5:02 PM, -BM-Leonhart said:

On the other hand, currently you also have no way of disprove the fact that the Shadows may actually be stronger. The HUD is no indication at all, as you have no way of what the base currently is. Much like it is with Mesa's Peacemaker, they adjust the damage, but the HUD only tells you the multipliers.

The base would have to be at least 4x to even match the top-end shadow count, and it would still be a nerf overall.  There is also little evidence that there is a base multiplier; I have not observed individual shadows killing at an increased rate.  

[-N7-Leonhart]

42 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

The base would have to be at least 4x to even match the top-end shadow count, and it would still be a nerf overall.  There is also little evidence that there is a base multiplier; I have not observed individual shadows killing at an increased rate.  

Nope. This post of mine explains why quality > quantity. They would need to have like 2x better stats and fewer shadows would already do better than a count of 3x more weak ones.

On 8/11/2016 at 8:49 PM, -BM-Leonhart said:

You are missing a very important point here. Suppose you have the next scenario:

1 unit that has 1000 HP and 100 DPS

vs

2 units that have 500 HP and 50 DPS each

At fight sight, that seems like an even match, right? WRONG. The stronger unit will wipe the weaker 2, since it can kill the first one fast and then the remaining one will only dish only half of the DPS.

That is why with fewer but stronger shadows, they don't need to make up the sum of the weaker ones. The fact that each are much tougher and won't get down in one-hit, guarantees more damage in the long run.

 

Edited August 17, 2016 by -BM-Leonhart

[Kidkilla]

The question is/should be - is Nekros still playable past level 50 opponents (as that's a reasonable benchmark)?

i would suggest he is, but with a lot of work and retuning to your loadout - weapons, focus, mods, companions; and what you want to do 'in game'.

As much as DE tried, he's still a one trick pony - loot collector, which along with his passive, makes him useful on certain missions but not others. So survival, excavation and defence willl always be 'his' missions. Of course, the state of SOTD means that you have to rely more on his passive, focus schools and syndicate weapons that give a health buff the higher the level of enemy to be an effective looter (alongside a loot buffer like carrier with crate destroyer or Smeeta Kavat).

In many ways, the 'nerfs' that DE has introduced have forced players to take a more holistic approach to playing, which is no bad thing to be honest. Yes there always be 'default' loadouts - carrier, tankor etc but I've also seen some really imaginative loadouts with barely used frames and weapons which also work. 

All the recent changes have done is make players choose a philosophy of playing - power gaming or experimentation, with both being equally valid.

[RealPandemonium]

20 minutes ago, -BM-Leonhart said:

Nope. This post of mine explains why quality > quantity. They would need to have like 2x better stats and fewer shadows would already do better than a count of 3x more weak ones.

 

Shadows are really durable to begin with, and aggro is typically spread among them (AKA I'm not typically worried about them dying in a proper powerstr build.) Conversely, if one of the 7 shadows does die to some random focus-fire (and this will happen more often now that their hp is constantly decaying,) you lose 15% of your army's power instead of 5%.   

Your case also doesn't take into account the fact that in old SotD a few utility shadows were purely a good thing while in current SotD each utlity shadow hampers your damage output significantly.  If 3 of your shadows are, say, Shield Ospreys, in old SotD you lose 15% damage potential while in current SotD you lose 43%.  Nevermind that whether you can actually get Ospreys to spawn at all is up in the air in the new system, while in the old system you could just res them all and not have to worry.  

You've been shilling for this rework really hard, but I can only speculate that you never used a Shadow-focused build and are uninterested in SotD's damage potential.  The SotD changes only really benefit loot-farming Nekros; all other builds are nerfed to varying degrees, with full Shadows builds suffering the most.  Those who used full strength/duration builds before the rework are not going to buy what you're selling here.  

Edited August 17, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[Eldritchsqueaker]

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

Shadows are really durable to begin with, and aggro is typically spread among them (AKA I'm not typically worried about them dying in a proper powerstr build.) Conversely, if one of the 7 shadows does die to some random focus-fire (and this will happen more often now that their hp is constantly decaying,) you lose 15% of your army's power instead of 5%.   

Your case also doesn't take into account the fact that in old SotD a few utility shadows were purely a good thing while in current SotD each utlity shadow hampers your damage output significantly.  If 3 of your shadows are, say, Shield Ospreys, in old SotD you lose 15% damage potential while in current SotD you lose 43%.  Nevermind that whether you can actually get Ospreys to spawn at all is up in the air in the new system, while in the old system you could just res them all and not have to worry.  

You've been shilling for this rework really hard, but I can only speculate that you never used a Shadow-focused build and are uninterested in SotD's damage potential.  The SotD changes only really benefit loot-farming Nekros; all other builds are nerfed to varying degrees, with full Shadows builds suffering the most.  Those who used full strength/duration builds before the rework are not going to buy what you're selling here.  

It actually doesn't even benefit loot farming other than making it easier to use because of the reduced loot chance with desecrate.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

5 hours ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

It apparently seemed that way to you, did you expect i'd be in denyal about that?

 

And what the Community asked for was constant Doubled loot...they removed the interaction, they reduced the effect. I wouldn't exactly call that messing up but Balancing.

 

I mean were you around when the original greedy pull was still a thing? That ability only hoardet existing loot and was broken af. I'm Mad at them that they removed the guaranteed health orbs but it goes wo discussion why they took this step.

 

[Windy_Wind]

The change is nice overall but there are still a few things i want to see to change:

1. Casting soul punch on shadow of the dead creep will remove that creep. The reason is sometimes I summoned an undesired one like lancer or charger and wanted to remove it and replace with more powerful creep that I recently killed but I couldn't . Additionally, Doing will allow players to replace a new squad of shadows without having to wait for them to decade. 

2. Casting soul punch on a specific enemy will force shadow of the dead to spawn that enemy after it is killed even if it's considered to be weaker by the system. Only affect one enemy at the time. If I want to remove that one later on, see Suggestion 1. 

3. If all shadows are alive, recasting SoTD will cost half the energy.(or 75%). 

4. Holding 4 will teleport all shadows to players' location without consuming any energy because.....AI is stupid sometimes? Having to use energy to bring them back to players' location is pretty annoying...for me at least. And that's not even players' fault

Edited August 17, 2016 by Windy_Wind

[Denninja]

On 8/15/2016 at 9:56 PM, ----Fenrir---- said:

I'm not sure you realize just by how much Desecrate was nerfed. My guess is that the new Desecrate gives around ~30% more loot. The old Desecrate gave around ~75% more loot. That's a massive nerf! It's the combination of not being able to try desecrating the same body multiple times + the desecrate speed being so low that a lot of bodies disappear before you even get a chance to desecrate them.

Yes, you can play Necros now instead of just standing around spamming "3". The problem is that now he gives so little additional loot that there is not much point in playing him at all.

"30%" ahahahaha THAT'S an understatement.

Consider corpse-destroying abilities and damage sources.

Get a multikill? Maximum of 1 Desecrate hit.

The Cooldown needs to be drastically lowered, or still lowered and the chance roll for full loot removed.

[F4talFr4me]

4 hours ago, Kidkilla said:

The question is/should be - is Nekros still playable past level 50 opponents (as that's a reasonable benchmark)?

i would suggest he is, but with a lot of work and retuning to your loadout - weapons, focus, mods, companions; and what you want to do 'in game'.

As much as DE tried, he's still a one trick pony - loot collector, which along with his passive, makes him useful on certain missions but not others. So survival, excavation and defence willl always be 'his' missions. Of course, the state of SOTD means that you have to rely more on his passive, focus schools and syndicate weapons that give a health buff the higher the level of enemy to be an effective looter (alongside a loot buffer like carrier with crate destroyer or Smeeta Kavat).

In many ways, the 'nerfs' that DE has introduced have forced players to take a more holistic approach to playing, which is no bad thing to be honest. Yes there always be 'default' loadouts - carrier, tankor etc but I've also seen some really imaginative loadouts with barely used frames and weapons which also work. 

All the recent changes have done is make players choose a philosophy of playing - power gaming or experimentation, with both being equally valid.

Balance is when you take 1 thing and compensate to another (on a weak frame like nekros), what DE did was ruin 1 boring but very usefull skill(the only skill nekros was used for because everything else he had sucked) and then totally ruined SoTD (which was crap to begin with due to bad AI).

What compensation did we recieve? nothing but silence.

[catastrophy]

It does use more energy now, doesn't it? It also gives less per energy spent? That's how it feels to me. Apart from primed power reserve I have only the normal streamline mod to mitigate energy usage and that didn't seem to help. Constantly out of energy for very little in return is my impression.

[F4talFr4me]

2 minutes ago, catastrophy said:

It does use more energy now, doesn't it? It also gives less per energy spent? That's how it feels to me. Apart from primed power reserve I have only the normal streamline mod to mitigate energy usage and that didn't seem to help. Constantly out of energy for very little in return is my impression.

This is indeed true. costs way too much energy, more chance of failing, no second chances at desecrating the same body, slower to desecrate and yes less loot in general. "balance"

[Culaio]

On 16.08.2016 at 8:45 AM, TRSS said:

Loot is a very sensitive topic to Digital Extremes since its frequency determines how much their customers a.k.a. players may want to purchase instead of farming. Therefore they saw a big opportunity to nerf Nekros' Desecrate after promising to make his gameplay more fun. So, yes, you can focus on different things now while playing Nekros, plus DE increased the amount of grind at the same time and in their own interest.

This is double edge sword, as you make game grinder more and more people will decide to quit playing game, I know it from personal experiance, before I was playing game 1-3 hours a day, but around time they removed draco I started playing less and less, its pretty weird since I didnt play draco regularly, and I wasnt doing it "properly(creating specifc team and then leaching), My method generally was slow nova + one maxed weapon + two weapons for leveling OR frame for leveling + maxed weapons it generally was enough to max stuff in two runs, it may sound too fast but since most weapons to be useful need to be maxed multiple times it was fair. But since now we dont have good way to max weapons its hard to make less powerful weapons good enough to be played(the weaker the weapon the more maxing it needs to be good enough) I am actually getting less and less interested in game, barely spend 30 min a day playing game, change to desacrate makes me want to play even less, I have few weapons I need to build and all of them need polymer bundles that I cant farm reliably now, yeah farming polymer bundles is harder to me then farming rare resources like neural sensors that can be easily farmed by doing alad over and over very quickly  with volt.

 

Also remember that amount of weapons in game is pretty large and can be overwhelming to new players, especially when they realize how hard its to farm resources for them, It can actually scare of new players from playing.

[(PSN)LegionOfZoom1410]

1st off really enjoying the new update Graphics upgrades & Star Chart look Fabulous. 

While I have along ways to go in getting the New Stuff Checked out I did encounter 1 minor glitch hopefully it can be fixed asap.

 

If you go to the Kudrow Imprints when it's showing the dog it has a huge glitch under his chin & other parts of his body this is with all Imprints not just 1 Kubrow..

 

That said I know this will get fixed like the lighting of kubrows Imprints has been fixed the u...

 

Now on to Nekros 

 

I've been running him & honestly I'm not seeing what all the fuss is about with Descarte

 

To me either people are not using him right or are trying to be speedy Reynolds or are just complaining to complain 

I ran multiple games with him yesterday & while his drop rate for additional loot was nerfed 36% it's not as bad as others have made it out to be..

 

It's also not as exstream as you go with some warframes Valkery Rhino cough cough & more so it could have been worse 

 

Anyway I ran With Slash Weapons like the Trigis Garkata & more 

 

Well slashing bodies into mutiple parts makes getting extra resources easy people that are complaining are clearly not using slash weapons & if they are then maybe not the right one.

 

Try using the garkatas & Trigis weapons slash em into bout 3 to 4 pieces & watch the loot appear 

 

Yeah it does not always give loot but when it does it's clearly a lot more then b4 & I'm not even using boosters & have seen an increase in loot since the health orbs drops were reduced 

 

So when using Nekros use slash weapons for better results that's what Nekros power is ment to be for using non slash weapons will generate a lot less loot so if your farming make sure u bring slash weapons it has always been this way use him right & you will see the difference finally DE made how it should be.. slashing has always granted more loot so if u plan to farm take slash weapons & cut em up!

 

And as for shadow's I can agree & see the same issues with what there saying the health decay thing sucks slowing down the health decay would go along ways to solving this issue.. maybe it's my build I'll test more when I get Nekros prime & try to report back on shadows 

 

But I'm actually enjoying Nekros more then ever now it's 1 of the better reworks out there for once I'm not a sitting duck 4 chicken bards & corner camping napalms & sorches being able to move while descrating was something I had been wanting 4 a long time as Nekros has always been one of my top 3 frames.

 

Finally being able to move on the fly & being able to survive easier now may get me back in to using him a lot more..

 

So Once again Thank You for these wonderful changes & making Nekros fun again until next time have a great day....

Edited August 17, 2016 by (PS4)ChiefsFury1984

[SaurusRex]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)ChiefsFury1984 said:

... his drop rate for additional loot was nerfed...

... it's clearly a lot more then b4...

...Okay then

Congrats on convincing yourself everyone else is wrong I guess

Edited August 17, 2016 by SaurusRex
I CHANGED MY MIND ON PUNCTUATION OKAY DEAL WITH IT

[main_antagonist]

Gonna drop this in here.

 

[Marshall]

38 minutes ago, Culaio said:

 I am actually getting less and less interested in game, barely spend 30 min a day playing game

I feel the same way, Culaio. Just log in to play daily Sortie but don't feel like doing anything else unless I need credits.

[LunarEdge7]

Meanwhile, we have a Mirage and her broken combos.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

8 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

It apparently seemed that way to you, did you expect i'd be in denyal about that?

 

And what the Community asked for was constant Doubled loot...they removed the interaction, they reduced the effect. I wouldn't exactly call that messing up but Balancing.

 

I mean were you around when the original greedy pull was still a thing? That ability only hoardet existing loot and was broken af. I'm Mad at them that they removed the guaranteed health orbs but it goes wo discussion why they took this step.

 

I was there for greedy pull yes, but my thought process: "Was that really something DE didn't comprehend could be abused? When at that moment in the game, people were actively camping to farm missions"~it's not my fault someone doesn't have insight.

But now it's my turn to question a truthful observation: Did DE overbalance? Did the forums really know what they were asking for?

"Many people seem to feel that DEs over reliance on feed back from these forums leads to broken and nerfed abilities being implemented into the game...

It's a notion that causes a lot of toxicity...

But I actually think it might have some truth.

We think we are suggesting reasonable things, but DE takes every idea they get from here with a grain of salt it seems. If you suggest something, and De runs with it, their general plan from that point on is to dumb down the suggestion so it can't be over powered -desecrate.

Even now DE could take my suggestions to heart, but in the process nerf something else (though id be deluding myself to think so).

How do we stop that? How do you anticipate that? Should you even give feed back at all on anything if it will always be misinterpreted?

And who is at fault? DE has a bigger picture of what's going on than I can see.

Are they just prone to mistakes, or is there actually purpose in the things they do?"~i was too lazy to rewrite this.

You know this desecrate change isn't anything anyone writing about it in this post had in mind, or any of the changes, but some people actually like the changes.

It boils down to 3 types of people for me:

1)who mained the frame and loved it

2)who wanted to like nekros but thought he was just too lacking

3) who hated him and wanted to see less of him inmissions.

When you read through the forums piece by piece, these people usually identify themselves, but I don't think any of it is read separately or viewed from a point of what might actually make the frame better to play....

And I can't even say that any of those veiw points is more important than the other, because I have been all 3---> love(d) nekros up till now.

If it is really the forums fault this happened then that's probably how

Edited August 17, 2016 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
Edit

[Kastorius]

Wew lad, I don't even know where to begin. Thanking DE for an update is one thing, but WEW, is there some wrong info here.

Here's something: You could use slash weapons—hold up, this is gonna blow your mind now—you could use slash weapons to cut bodies into chunks before the rework, too! Except now, it costs far more energy/health, because each slashed chunk requires 10 energy to Desecrate by default. Also, unless you turn Desecrate on and off (which would sort of defeat the point of a toggle rework), the "popcorn" effect actually provides a much narrower window for slashing up bodies.

That's really just the tip of the iceberg. I haven't covered the fact that it's actually more difficult now to run hybrid builds (Desecrate + SotD, for example), that it's much more min-max intensive to reach high damage reduction with Shield of Shadows, that SotD's damage output is reduced (not that it was ever fantastic)....

Edited August 17, 2016 by Kastorius

[(PSN)LegionOfZoom1410]

Clearly I've used Nekros a lot more then most people so ik what his drops were like b4.

 

It always seemed like more because of all the health orbs around.. pre rework 

 

Now post rework there is clearly less health orbs but the drops at least on consoles anyway seem better & getting loot isn't as hard as some made it out to be..

 

I've kept track of certain resource amounts from games played tru screen shots & my resources amounts clearly are the same or better then b4.

 

The health orbs made loot look like more & yeah it's only less wise due to no more re rolls but 54% isn't bad & is still very good & if your lacking resources then use the drop chance & resource boosters they will help you..

Some people hate change period would I have rather seen them keep the additional loot at 90% sure but I'm more then happy to trade off 36% in order to move around & generate loot.. & survive vs getting whacked..

Should they add re rolls back yes but it's not that big of a deal..

Loot was always inflated because of the crazy amount of health orbs it made the original loot look bigger then it actually was..

 

I'm always activating descrating b4 I even begin moving once I spawn In game i don't wait till i see someone kill em then activate..

 

I also run max effeincey & the heath doesn't bother me 1 bit as I use despoil Rejuvenation Medi Ray & Arcane Grace & life strikes o it's not a problem but

 

There's no doubt that we are seeing more loot & less health orbs & I'm a Nekros person so I'd know if something wasn't right with him...

 

If you hate his rework fine that's you but clearly I've taken screens of my loot pre rework & post rework to compare & I've not noticed a reduction in like plastids mods anything like that.

 

It's about equal or better then b4 & I'm thinking it because of the health orbs being reduced is why we see more now.

 

Either way at least I'm having fun & enjoying him have a great day 

Edited August 17, 2016 by (PS4)ChiefsFury1984

[Kastorius]

1 minute ago, (PS4)ChiefsFury1984 said:

Clearly I've used Nekros a lot more then most people so ik what his drops were like b4.

That's not clear at all, actually.

Also, your screenshots don't exist. Totally made up, even if we could verify which were taken before the update and which were taken after.

[(PSN)LegionOfZoom1410]

There on my console I have em on there I'm not joking dude 

 

I think your just refusing to admit you don't know how to mod or use him right I'd be glad to share a build and setup with you once Nekros prime comes out until then I'm gonna go enjoy using immortal Nekros have a great day 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

 

Do they have to comprehense? I mean this game IS a Beta after all ... so they leave trial and error to the player base...

 

The result was error...Can...fixin this error rly be considered "over"Balancing?

 

Me, i was among the people who Adressed his actuall Problems, in specific: Bad shadow AI, useless first ability, bad Range on terrify...and WAY too much inconvinience in generall... i mean his Hunger for duration (and prior strength) was and still is over the top...

I was allways running a shadow build and only ever used desecrate for the health orbs, leaving me with just the present percentage of the loot, PLUS ORBS. It is sufficient for his Gameplay ya know... just not sufficient anymore im terms of power efficiency and self-substain... (probably? mostly due to the missing guaranteed health orbs. I'll see how this is gonna work out)

Point is: it is not undertuned but rather the ideal ammount they desired for a while and which has been nothing but abused so far. It is enough for survival, probably even for substaining and support. Exactly for what it was meant to be used.

Is it anyone fault? Is there even a mistake? Didn't people ask for just this? Did anyone expect something else?...

I have yet to try him and I'm pretty sure that the health is missing but I'm not confident that i'd Miss the extra loot which would have resulted from spamming...

[Gurpgork]

Okay, finally got around to doing all my playtesting and finally have time to write some detailed feedback, so here goes...

Italics denote very big problems.

Desecrate

Spoiler

Problems Solved

• Frees Nekros's hands to do other things instead of spamming Desecrate for an entire mission. 

Problems Not Solved

• Players outright ignore Nekros's other abilities in favor of Desecrate because of the loot it provides; Strongly favors loot caving over interesting gameplay. 
• Provides nothing of unique value to Nekros's kit when unmodded.
  • Minions cannot use pickups of any kind.
  • Cannot be made useful within Nekros's kit with normal maximization.
    • Requires Despoil and Equilibrium, two mods that are useful solely on Nekros, and are difficult to either obtain or maximize.
      • Creates mod exclusivity problem unique to Nekros; no other Warframe needs a 10 rank mod that is useless on every other Warframe to reach their full potential. 
      • Limits Nekros's build diversity.
      • Combo provides infinite energy, which, while useful, provides nothing uniquely useful to Nekros; every Warframe needs energy.
        • Creates the same problem as Energy Vampire; Energy is inherently supposed to be restrictive, and having it in unlimited quantity on demand not only defeats the purpose of energy but also threatens game balance. 
• RNG dependent; infrequently provides what a player needs at the time of casting.
• Expected to have 100% uptime.

Problems Created

• Complete loss of player control over the ability; can suddenly sap large amounts of health or energy without warning.
• Completely brainless, especially with Despoil + Equilibrium; Just toggle it on in the beginning of the mission, completely bypass the energy economy for the rest of the mission for free. 

 

Shadows of the Dead

Spoiler

Problems Solved

• Nekros can now heal his Shadows and summon them to his location.
• Strong aggro pull lessens the need for Shield of Shadows; enhances meatshield role of the ability.

Problems Not Solved

• Slowest cast time out of every ability in Warframe; Makes Natural Talent mandatory, compounding Nekros's modding problems.
• No way to direct Shadows; They attack enemies randomly.

Problems Created

• Size and therefore power of army was greatly reduced without any compensation. 
  • Utility Shadows such as Nullifiers or Shield Ospreys come with a sharp reduction to the overall damage potential of the ability. 
• Health drain is objectively worse than duration.
  • Shadows grow progressively weaker for their duration, requiring constant babysitting.
    • Problem compounded massively by combination of aggro pull and reduced army size; Each Shadow takes more damage by default, on top of losing a percentage of their health every second.
• Recasts require the full energy cost of SotD, compounding Nekros's need for an unlimited energy supply. 

Other Unsolved Problems

Spoiler

• Small energy supply, making Nekros dependent on bypassing the energy economy to function.
• Terrify suffers from the mandatory augment problem; Slow effect makes Terrify better at crowd control, something that the ability already does.
  • Compounds Nekros's modding problems. 
• Low base range on Terrify. 
• Soul Punch is next to useless on its own; causes one enemy to ragdoll unpredictably, while dealing terrible damage and having no AoE capability.

I have to be honest, I'm disappointed with this rework as a whole. I'd be very underwhelmed by Nekros if he was released today. The rework, and the entire Warframe as a whole, feels half baked. You even left the cast animation for Desecrate unchanged, for crying out loud. 

The majority of Warframe reworks in the past were brilliant, but this one falls disappointingly short. It feels like an afterthought. 

Edited August 17, 2016 by Gurpgork

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

Situational...loadout specific...meta solutions to the rescue info here

Just use slash weapons!

The change to desecrate isn't that bad you say? But you should compensate for the change by using just slash weapons....rrriiigggghhhhtttt....